It's all about the height of the bounce, not the speed of the court

NoBadMojo

G.O.A.T.
I've come to the conclusion that what is more relevant than the speed of the various surfaces which gets discussed quite a lot here,is the height of the ball bounce

I made this observation after watching Nadal at Miami.

I think when people think of a 'clay courter' they think of people who excel on a slower surface....I think they excel more because of the higher bounce...In the case of nadal at Miami, he benefited from the faster hard court because he was more able to hit more penetrating shots and outright winners on the faster surface, but yet the surface at Miami was higher bouncing for a hard court..perfect for an extreme Western gripper. I realize that Nadal has likely been working on flattening it out a bit more at times , but i do think he was aided by the higher bounding hardcourt at Miami

Contrast this to Fed who can be victimized on higher bounding courts because of his one hander and his seemingly milder grips than Nadal. Extreme Westerners love a higher bounding ball.

The conditions at Miami were also quite windy and I think Fed has more trouble in windy conditions partly because of his smaller racquetheadsize and the fact that his frame has a very clublike thicker beam on the flat axis. I think if the conditions at the French are windy this year, look for Fed to go out early.

This is also the reason why you have baseline bashers doing well at Wimbledon and less all court play...they can far more easily get under the ball to hit their 'normal' groundstrokes and dont have to deal with low bounding skidding balls like Wimbldeon used to be and hardcourts used to be...extreme grippers dont like low bounding balls. This, i feel, is also the reason why the USOpen seems to be the only major now where all courters have a more decent shot at winning..the Open courts are usually set up faster and lower bounding....suits more of the American players

So anywho..i really think it's more about the height of the bounce rather than the speed of the surface.
 

Nadal_Freak

Banned
It also hurts when players have trouble being aggressive against Nadal. Unpredictable bounce, wind, hot, and etc. Indoors is probably Nadal's worst surface because all of these allow other players to take it to Nadal. I agree though that high bouncing surfaces help Nadal alot but he is still vulnerable to big servers on fast surfaces. Also Nadal moves better on clay.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The conditions at Miami were also quite windy and I think Fed has more trouble in windy conditions partly because of his smaller racquetheadsize and the fact that his frame has a very clublike thicker beam on the flat axis. I think if the conditions at the French are windy this year, look for Fed to go out early.

Last nite, I was watching on TTC 1987 Graf vs Nav FO final which Nav lost. In the interview with Bud Collins, she said the windy conditions affected her game more than Graf's because she came to the net more often. And also her dependence of the serve. She said she was losing track of the ball during volleys. Looks like all-court players could suffer in windy conditions.

Federer is also prone to shanking due to his small racquet and swinging faster to compensate for its low power. Wind and high bounce can throw his timing off.
 

bluegrasser

Hall of Fame
Last nite, I was watching on TTC 1987 Graf vs Nav FO final which Nav lost. In the interview with Bud Collins, she said the windy conditions affected her game more than Graf's because she came to the net more often. And also her dependence of the serve. She said she was losing track of the ball during volleys. Looks like all-court players could suffer in windy conditions.

Federer is also prone to shanking due to his small racquet and swinging faster to compensate for its low power. Wind and high bounce can throw his timing off.

I think some of what you said is true, *but* Federer couldn't hit the shots with the control and precision he does with a mp IMO. When I've hit with the 90 i was amazed at the control, yes, it does get heavy, but I'm older. For Fed the +'s out weigh the -'s.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
For Nadal I would agree it's about the height of the bounce. However, this year he was taken out by joker in Miami, under the same conditions you mention. The pace of the incoming shots coupled with Nadal standing ridiculously far behind the baseline did him in.
 

Nadal_Freak

Banned
For Nadal I would agree it's about the height of the bounce. However, this year he was taken out by joker in Miami, under the same conditions you mention. The pace of the incoming shots coupled with Nadal standing ridiculously far behind the baseline did him in.
It was a night match though and the ball doesn't jump as high in cooler conditions. Also the bounce was predictable as well allowing Djokovic to take the ball early.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I think some of what you said is true, *but* Federer couldn't hit the shots with the control and precision he does with a mp IMO. When I've hit with the 90 i was amazed at the control, yes, it does get heavy, but I'm older. For Fed the +'s out weigh the -'s.

Hopefully that will be the case and he can win this RG. Don't want him to win 500 slams but no FO, and retire regreting the head size like Sampras. He is coming off a bageling of Rafa and should be high in confidence.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
It was a night match though and the ball doesn't jump as high in cooler conditions. Also the bounce was predictable as well allowing Djokovic to take the ball early.

If the bounce was "predictable" it was "predictable" for both of them >> not just Joker.
 

Nadal_Freak

Banned
If the bounce was "predictable" it was "predictable" for both of them >> not just Joker.
Yeah but Joker is more of an aggressive player and he needs to take it to Nadal to win. Nadal has plenty of time to react to an unpredictable bounce when he is way behind the baseline. Nadal can't really slide on hard court so that hurts him as well.
 

armand

Banned
higher bounce = slower surface
lower bounce = faster surface

It's just a matter of how much the ball is deflected by the surface.
 

Nadal_Freak

Banned
higher bounce = slower surface
lower bounce = faster surface

It's just a matter of how much the ball is deflected by the surface.
Actually not always true. Hot weather tends to bring both speed and height. Hamburg was slow and low because of the cool conditions. Australian Open was bouncing low as well because of most of the tournament being played indoors. Nadal rarely loses when the ball is jumping high. Berdych did it last year in Canada though but Berdych is big enough to handle it.
 

JRstriker12

Hall of Fame
Actually not always true. Hot weather tends to bring both speed and height. Hamburg was slow and low because of the cool conditions. Australian Open was bouncing low as well because of most of the tournament being played indoors. Nadal rarely loses when the ball is jumping high. Berdych did it last year in Canada though but Berdych is big enough to handle it.

Yes, weather can affect the speed of a clay court, but on the average, a red clay court will still be slower than most hard courts.

As for the lower bounce at the Aussie Open this year, they actually made the courts faster than in the past - thus a lower bounce. It didn't have too much to do with it being indoor or outdoor. http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200610/s1754712.htm

It's really the "speed" of the court that determines a higher or lower bounce more than the temperature. It can be really hot during the U.S. open, but those balls will not jump as high as balls at the French Open.

Here's an article of how a court's "speed" affects a tennis ball: http://www.tennisserver.com/set/set_07_01.html
 

Nadal_Freak

Banned
Yes, weather can affect the speed of a clay court, but on the average, a red clay court will still be slower than most hard courts.

As for the lower bounce at the Aussie Open this year, they actually made the courts faster than in the past - thus a lower bounce. It didn't have too much to do with it being indoor or outdoor. http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200610/s1754712.htm

It's really the "speed" of the court that determines a higher or lower bounce more than the temperature. It can be really hot during the U.S. open, but those balls will not jump as high as balls at the French Open.

Here's an article of how a court's "speed" affects a tennis ball: http://www.tennisserver.com/set/set_07_01.html
I agree with this but still I notice a big difference with the bounce when it rains and is cool compared to it is hot and dry. Clay will generally be slow and high bouncing majority of the time but indoor conditions will definitely make the ball bounce lower and possibly slower. Nice articles btw. Surface, Temperature, and Humidity all factor in this.
 

rocket

Hall of Fame
Here's an article of how a court's "speed" affects a tennis ball: http://www.tennisserver.com/set/set_07_01.html

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for the links! Here's an extract:

"...Tennis courts are made out of a wide variety of materials. Courts are characterized as 'fast' or 'slow' based on the materials and condition of the surface. As the ball hits the court it rolls or skids across the surface. If the ball skids on the court, we say that the court is fast; if it rolls, we say that the court is slow."

So basically, we can say that a slower surface will allow the ball to 'bite' into the court, making it 'sit up' more, whereas a faster surface will make the ball 'skid' on contact, hence giving it speed & a low bounce.
 
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rocket

Hall of Fame
I agree with this but still I notice a big difference with the bounce when it rains and is cool compared to it is hot and dry. Clay will generally be slow and high bouncing majority of the time but indoor conditions will definitely make the ball bounce lower and possibly slower. Nice articles btw. Surface, Temperature, and Humidity all factor in this.

I think the atmospheric conditions affect the pressure of the ball. From the same surface, the ball will seem heavy & lower bounding when it's cold, but when it's hot & dry, the ball will seem light, cut through the air faster & bounce a little higher.

That's one of the reasons why ppl string their frames tighter in the summer months to control that extra liveliness of the ball.

So we're talking about 2 separate things here: the surface of the court & the atmospheric conditions.
 

tennis_hand

Hall of Fame
higher bounce = slower surface
lower bounce = faster surface

It's just a matter of how much the ball is deflected by the surface.

not exactly.

Hard courts absorbs the least amount of the ball's momentum, so this is more so.

But for grass and clay courts, the ball's momentum is reduced on the bounce.
Clay courts after rain will make the ball bounce low and slow.
 

cmb

Semi-Pro
also depends on the clay, they clay set up differs from country to country as well. Italy, and spain have higher bounces, compared to northern germany and Holland where the courts are dreadfully slow but also the bounces are not high at all. I am playing in The Netherlands right now and its seriously slow....but the bounces are not high so its importent to take the balls as early as u can without messing up your court positioning. Its been a rough ajustment for me over the last 2 months haha but improving my groundies for real though.
 

NoBadMojo

G.O.A.T.
also depends on the clay, they clay set up differs from country to country as well. Italy, and spain have higher bounces, compared to northern germany and Holland where the courts are dreadfully slow but also the bounces are not high at all. I am playing in The Netherlands right now and its seriously slow....but the bounces are not high so its importent to take the balls as early as u can without messing up your court positioning. Its been a rough ajustment for me over the last 2 months haha but improving my groundies for real though.

right..you can control the bounce height of a clay court and the speed independently of one another on clay..even without different locations..also true on hardcourts..depends upon how much sand they infuse in the coating, how thick the coating, etc
 

Nadal_Freak

Banned
also depends on the clay, they clay set up differs from country to country as well. Italy, and spain have higher bounces, compared to northern germany and Holland where the courts are dreadfully slow but also the bounces are not high at all. I am playing in The Netherlands right now and its seriously slow....but the bounces are not high so its importent to take the balls as early as u can without messing up your court positioning. Its been a rough ajustment for me over the last 2 months haha but improving my groundies for real though.
That's it!!! Federer likes the unusually slow and low bouncing clay over the medium speed and high bouncing clay. Thank goodness the French Open is the medium speed and high bouncing clay.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Hopefully that will be the case and he can win this RG. Don't want him to win 500 slams but no FO, and retire regreting the head size like Sampras. He is coming off a bageling of Rafa and should be high in confidence.
Don't worry, even if Federer never wins the French Open, I can almost guarantee that he won't be blaming it on his racquet. Because without his racquet, he may have ended his career with zero Grand Slams.
 

Halba

Hall of Fame
That's it!!! Federer likes the unusually slow and low bouncing clay over the medium speed and high bouncing clay. Thank goodness the French Open is the medium speed and high bouncing clay.

his one hander, can it cope on high bouncing philippe chatrier clay? hamburg was low bounce, flat very dry.
 

fastdunn

Legend
This is also the reason why you have baseline bashers doing well at Wimbledon and less all court play...they can far more easily get under the ball to hit their 'normal' groundstrokes and dont have to deal with low bounding skidding balls like Wimbldeon used to be and hardcourts used to be...extreme grippers dont like low bounding balls. This, i feel, is also the reason why the USOpen seems to be the only major now where all courters have a more decent shot at winning..the Open courts are usually set up faster and lower bounding....suits more of the American players

But I thought they made US Open court also slower and bouncier than before.

Anyway I think Wimbledon has gone thru the biggest changes.

Indoor courts also got slower. Althought they are probably still the
fastest courts, Indoor courts seasons are now effectively disappeared.
(For example, Federer often skips the whole indoor season and directly
to the Master's final).

So maybe you're right. The bottom line is that players should know best.
I'm wondering what the general concensus among tour players in this matter.

I've read many news article about all surface speeds converging to middle
but none suggested which surface is fastest. They all pretty much
assume it's still is Wimbledon.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
I've come to the conclusion that what is more relevant than the speed of the various surfaces which gets discussed quite a lot here,is the height of the ball bounce

I made this observation after watching Nadal at Miami.

I think when people think of a 'clay courter' they think of people who excel on a slower surface....I think they excel more because of the higher bounce...In the case of nadal at Miami, he benefited from the faster hard court because he was more able to hit more penetrating shots and outright winners on the faster surface, but yet the surface at Miami was higher bouncing for a hard court..perfect for an extreme Western gripper. I realize that Nadal has likely been working on flattening it out a bit more at times , but i do think he was aided by the higher bounding hardcourt at Miami

The importance of a surface's bounce is not greater than its speed but is still rather undervalued. The finals in Turin give us a neat contrast with a very fast, slick court at altitude. Different conditions are great for the tour as it shifts the balance and forces changes.

This is also the reason why you have baseline bashers doing well at Wimbledon and less all court play...they can far more easily get under the ball to hit their 'normal' groundstrokes and dont have to deal with low bounding skidding balls like Wimbldeon used to be and hardcourts used to be...extreme grippers dont like low bounding balls. This, i feel, is also the reason why the USOpen seems to be the only major now where all courters have a more decent shot at winning..the Open courts are usually set up faster and lower bounding....suits more of the American players

So anywho..i really think it's more about the height of the bounce rather than the speed of the surface.

Nice to see the use of the term all-courter. Over a decade after this post we see finally once again a tendency towards it.
 

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
This is also the reason why you have baseline bashers doing well at Wimbledon and less all court play...they can far more easily get under the ball to hit their 'normal' groundstrokes and dont have to deal with low bounding skidding balls like Wimbldeon used to be and hardcourts used to be...
This is also a bit of a metagame thing. If most players hit with big topspin and people can't slice worth a damn, the bounce will be higher even on grass.

That's why the few people who can actually play on grass (small step movement and good flat/slice strokes) have a clear advantage over the field.
 
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