It's Official: 3.5/3.5 pairs are stronger than 4.0/3.0 pairs

[Cindysphinx]

Our 7.0 mixed season concluded last night (we lost, so no Districts for us). Anyway, I got to wondering whether our rather successful season provides any insight into which is stronger: 3.5 guy with 3.5 gal, or 4.0 guy with 3.0 gal.

Overall, the team was 10-3 in team wins.

The 3.5/3.5 pairs went 20/4 on W/L for the season. The 4.0/3.0 pairs went 10/5.

In sets lost, the 3.5/3.5 pairs lost 12 sets. The 4.0/3.0 pairs lost 13 sets.

In third set tiebreaks, the 3.5 pairs were 5/4. The 4.0/3.0 pairs were 3/5.

Obviously, a super-strong 4.0 guy can win a lot with a super-strong 3.0 woman. I think the ratings adjustment made it more difficult for 4.0/3.0 pairs, however.

For a woman to be at 3.0 this year, she most likely was either a recent bump from 2.5 or she hadn't done very well at 3.0 the year before. In either case, she probably would struggle to be on the same court with 3.5 men and women. Given that the dominant 4.0 guys were moved to 4.5 and there were so many new 4.0 guys, it wasn't easy to find super-strong 4.0 guys to play 7.0 mixed.

Food for thought for those who captain 7.0 mixed?

Cindy -- noting for the record that the team that beat us last night only had one 4.0 guy on the roster

 

[kylebarendrick]

You are missing the strongest type of 4/0/3.0 pairing...

Strong, established 4.0 with a self-rated 3.0 (that is almost as good as their partner). Teams that can field lines like this tend to be the ones that go far nationally.

 

[athiker]

Interesting. I guess its kind of like the saying you are only as good as you 2nd serve or a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

In any tennis match one looks for the opponents' weakness...backhand, forehand, net play, etc. and tries to exploit it. In doubles the list includes the weakest player. I guess with a 4.0/3.0 pairing its pretty obvious and a game of keep away from the 4.0/pressure the 3.0 ensues.

Did you have or play against any 4.0 gal/3.0 guy pairings?...or is that a rare bird?

 

[Cindysphinx]

^All of my matches were against 3.5/3.5 opponents. I was 3-1 on the season. Lost only one set (and the tiebreak, obviously).

Regarding the 4.0 women/3.0 guy pairs on other teams, it is kind of hard to sort this out. The No. 1 team had two 4.0 women, and they won all of their matches. Trouble is, that team is truly dominant: They were 32/1 in individual match results, so the data is rather opaque.

Looking at the third place team, there was one very strong 4.0 woman. She and her 3.0 male partner went 4-0.

On the fourth place team, there was one very strong 4.0 woman. She went 2-1.

On the seventh place team, the one 4.0 woman (just bumped up) went 4-2.

That surprises me. I would have thought 4.0 women wouldn't do well in 7.0 mixed.

 

[Kostas]

Did you have or play against any 4.0 gal/3.0 guy pairings?...or is that a rare bird?

It is a rare bird but in my experience this can be the best combo.

Our 7.0 season doesn't start for about 2 more months but our team has all of em.

We have 4.0 men/3.0 women, 3.5/3.5 and one 4.0 woman with a 3.0 guy.

The 4.0 woman is the best player on our team (yes, better than the 4.0 guys). The 3.0 guy got bumped to 3.5 this year and was the only person in our region who successfully appealed back down.

I also agree that you never want to have the weakest player on the court in doubles. It's very easy to keep the ball away from a dominant player on the other side.

 

[damazing]

Cindy,

Don't you get to send two teams to Districts? I thought if you had more than a certain number of teams in your league that the top two teams went to districts, and you certainly had enough teams in your County.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Yep, top two teams go to Districts.

And I have something of a grievance about that.

The regular season consisted of eleven matches, IIRC. The prize for finishing in the top two was . . . not much. The playoff format, you see, was that the top 4 teams got a bye for the first round. Then after that it was single elimination, with all 12 teams playing in the playoffs. Had we won last night, we would advance to the "finals," but both teams in the finals go to Districts.

So what is the incentive to do well in the regular season? Not much. You might get a bye. Even the 1-10 last place team got to go to the playoffs.

I think the result of such a playoff format is that teams without much depth cannot amass a winning season record but can pull off the upset in the playoffs. Which means the strongest team might not represent the league at Districts.

Me, I think stomping everyone in the regular season should count for a lot. Either the top two teams should advance automatically without playoffs, or only the top four teams should play a round robin. That seems more fair.

I don't mind such a playoff scheme when there is no post-season advancement (like fall combo). What the heck, let everyone play in the playoffs. But when you are truly trying to figure out who is the strongest representative, I think teams that finish out of the top third of teams shouldn't be eligible for playoffs.

 

[crystal_clear]

A small sample...

 

[dlk]

It is a rare bird but in my experience this can be the best combo.

Our 7.0 season doesn't start for about 2 more months but our team has all of em.

We have 4.0 men/3.0 women, 3.5/3.5 and one 4.0 woman with a 3.0 guy.

The 4.0 woman is the best player on our team (yes, better than the 4.0 guys). The 3.0 guy got bumped to 3.5 this year and was the only person in our region who successfully appealed back down.

I also agree that you never want to have the weakest player on the court in doubles. It's very easy to keep the ball away from a dominant player on the other side.

Yes, especially if 3.0 male could hang in 3.5 & will surely be bumped up the next season. There is no easy 3.0 female to constantly hit to. I would have to say Athiker's weakeast link theory is true.

 

[justinmadison]

I have found the 4.0 male and the 3.0 female is the strongest pair. If the man is very aggressive it gets difficult to get the ball to the women.

The women must be able to serve a ball that does not allow the returner to wait and watch the man to see if he is poaching. She must also be able to return the ball and get it past the net person.

This has worked well for our team and I have seen it work well for others

 

[Kostas]

The women must be able to serve a ball that does not allow the returner to wait and watch the man to see if he is poaching. She must also be able to return the ball and get it past the net person.

How many 3.0 women have you honestly seen that can do these things?

All due respect, 3.0 women are not very good tennis players.

 

[Cindysphinx]

How many 3.0 women have you honestly seen that can do these things?

All due respect, 3.0 women are not very good tennis players.

Well, we needn't go quite that far. Some 3.0 women have very good serves. I can think of one such 3.0 player in particular. The reason she is 3.0 has nothing to do with the serve; it is because her other strokes are extremely inconsistent.

Anyway, a 3.0 woman often doesn't have a serve that will bother a 3.5 woman or a 3.5 man. Her partner will need to have Mad Net Skillz to compensate, and many 4.0 guys don't (for instance, 4.0 male singles players).

I did hear a legend of one 4.0 male doubles specialist who wins consistently at 7.0 with various 3.0 women. My teammates told me he does this by essentially standing on the center line and daring you to get the ball past him. According to my teammates who lost in straight sets, it simply isn't possible.

 

[Matt H.]

a 3.0 girl is going to be an extremely weak link in the chain considering that she's playing against a higher ranked woman AND man.

a 4.0 girl / 3.0 guy would be a bit better.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Of course. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The rules of doubles don't allow a strong player to carry the weaker one. By this I mean that the rules insist that a team take turns returning serve, and they have to alternate serving games. Look at it this way, how would a team consisting of the world's greatest player and worst fare? The great player would hold serve by hitting all aces. The bad player would double fault four consecutive times. How would they do facing the serve? The bad player would never return a serve, while the great player's unreturnable returns would make the game keep going back to deuce. So what would happen? I think the great player, having the pressure of going for a winner on every return would make an error before the awful one would accomplish a return. So, the strength of a team is not the mean of the players NTRP, instead it skews low.

 

[gameboy]

C'mon, Cindy. One single pair of teams make this official???

I've seen plenty of 4.0/3.0 that would destroy most 3.5/3.5 combo. Would that make it official?

YORMV

 

[raiden031]

I agree that 3.5/3.5 will usually beat a 4.0/3.0 pair.

However, I think 4.5/3.5 will usually beat 4.0/4.0 though.

My belief is that at the lower levels, it is more important to have a stronger female player than at the higher levels.

A 4.0 male is not good enough to keep the opponents from targeting the 3.0 female partner. The 3.0 female partner is going to lose alot of points because of their lack of consistency. The 4.0 will probably over-compensate and hit lots of errors as well.

The 4.5 male is good enough to make it hard for opponents to attack the 3.5 partner though. Also the 4.5 male should control play alot more on their own serves and returns than the 4.0 male to guarantee a certain amount of success in the match.

 

[penpal]

I think teamwork might have something to do with this as well. The 3.5 players are more likely to play together year-round, whereas the 4.0/3.0 combo might only play together during league season.

Agree with raiden - at a higher level, this makes less of a difference.

 

[bodieq]

I don't play mixed, but I've played in USTA "combo-doubles." I think it's always risky if you have too big a disparity in the doubles pair....unless the lower-rated player happens to be a "self-rated" sandbagger....then you might be unstoppable.

 

[Badlad4023]

^All of my matches were against 3.5/3.5 opponents. I was 3-1 on the season. Lost only one set (and the tiebreak, obviously).

Regarding the 4.0 women/3.0 guy pairs on other teams, it is kind of hard to sort this out. The No. 1 team had two 4.0 women, and they won all of their matches. Trouble is, that team is truly dominant: They were 32/1 in individual match results, so the data is rather opaque.

Looking at the third place team, there was one very strong 4.0 woman. She and her 3.0 male partner went 4-0.

On the fourth place team, there was one very strong 4.0 woman. She went 2-1.

On the seventh place team, the one 4.0 woman (just bumped up) went 4-2.

That surprises me. I would have thought 4.0 women wouldn't do well in 7.0 mixed.

The 3.0 man in that case can play with anyone, but the 4.0 woman can only play with him.