IW 2011 F: [1] Rafael Nadal (ESP) vs. [3] Novak Djokovic (SRB)

How will the Nadal-Djokovic turn out?

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Gorecki said:
excuse one?
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Scheduling mistake on Nadal's part. Doesn't make it any less true.

Gorecki said:
Excuse 2
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The surface had nothing to do with the result of the final. I said it was the crappiest surface I've seen(low bounce,very slow) before Nadal even qualified for SF.

Gorecki said:
there goes the 4th
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True, Nadal always gets bageled by lacko, it's something that happens on a regular basis. I'll leave with the words of denko:"Today he felt different. Normally he is tougher and he plays stronger. I don't mean his tennis, I mean physically"

Gorecki said:
5th for the pleasure of it!!
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True, it's not like Nadal actually had a problem that he had to go with the trainer outside of the court after breaking back at 1-2 in the first set. And it's not like numerous news agencies and Nadal's doc have told us that Nadal had a issue with his left leg. And it's not like Nadal took two weeks off. And it's not like Nadal's opponent said right afterwards that it was easier for him to beat Nadal cause he couldn't run.

Gorecki said:
and the grand finale, like a orgasm....
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Yeah, it is false to say that Nadal had the worst serve breakdown I've ever seen from him when, dominating Djokovic(both on serve and off the ground), he starts to serve like ass since the middle of the second set and ended up with 25% first serve percentage for the second set and 40 overall. It's also false to say that Nadal missed 11 consecutive first serves at one point. That didn't help Djoker at all. This is without mentioning the flurry of UE from Nadal's racket in the third set.
 
Gorecki said:
excuse one?



Excuse 2



there goes the 4th



5th for the pleasure of it!!



and the grand finale, like a orgasm....
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LOLLLL, dead on. The excuses never stop. Rafa without a serve lost that game :rolleyes:. Why don't they consider that if Djokovic never missed a FH he would have double bageled Nadal.

The error these idiots keep making is they assume that the 'normal' Rafa would have made all of those serves. The mistakenly extract the 'normal' performance from the good wins :). Wrong! What they don't realize is that this IS the 'normal' Rafa. A player is the sum total of all of his actions.
 
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QueenSeles said:
LOLLLL, dead on. The excuses never stop. Rafa without a serve lost that game :rolleyes:. Why don't they consider that if Djokovic never missed a FH he would have double bageled Nadal.
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Nope, Rafa without a serve lost almost all of his service games from then on. He only found some range at 4-0 in the third set. He got broken at 2-4 in second set, in the first and third game of the third. There was a stretch of time where Nadal missed 11 CONSECUTIVE FIRST SERVES. If you think Nadal serving 25% in sets 2 and 3 has anything to do with Djoker or that it sounds like an excuse, you are either deluded or a hater.

First serve percentage is very important. While Nadal had a decent(50'ish percent) in the first set he kept Nole on his feet. From middle of the second set onwards Nadal basically served almost only second serves which helped put Novak at ease as he could tee off on them.

It's no coincidence that once Nadal's new serve started to go, the score read like a normal Rafole encounter on HC: 6-3,6-2 for Djoker.
 
TennisFan3 said:
Does anyone think that playing BOTH singles and doubles, and going deep into them. may have hampered Nadal's serve and his intensity.
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I do. Rafa always overplays on hard. DC + doubles + singles + exhos right after injury break = overdrive. I don't mean he would have won if he hadn't but he doesn't put the best chances on his side when playing so intensively/compactly on a surface that has been consistently problematic for his body in the past.


About Djokovic's season on hard so far, here are the stats: best hard court season from January to March (or start of clay season) since 1987 (date when AO became 1st slam of the year). All players quoted won AO that year:

1- Sampras in 1994: 6 titles including IW AND Miami
2- Federer in 2006: 4 titles including IW AND Miami (Djoko will override him IF- and it's a huge if- he wins Miami since his other title: Dubai is more important than Doha)
3- Edberg in 1987: 4 titles (not including IW or Miami but those were not masters then)
4- Agassi in 2001: 3 titles including IW AND Miami
- Djoko in 2011, Federer in 2004, Agassi in 2003, Agassi in 1995, Courier in 1993, Lendl in 1989: 3 titles including IW OR Miami.
 
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namelessone said:
Nope, Rafa without a serve lost almost all of his service games from then on. He only found some range at 4-0 in the third set. He got broken at 2-4 in second set, in the first and third game of the third. There was a stretch of time where Nadal missed 11 CONSECUTIVE FIRST SERVES. If you think Nadal serving 25% in sets 2 and 3 has anything to do with Djoker or that it sounds like an excuse, you are either deluded or a hater.

First serve percentage is very important. While Nadal had a decent(50'ish percent) in the first set he kept Nole on his feet. From middle of the second set onwards Nadal basically served almost only second serves which helped put Novak at ease as he could tee off on them.

It's no coincidence that once Nadal's new serve started to go, the score read like a normal Rafole encounter on HC: 6-3,6-2 for Djoker.
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You didn't read my post nor understood one iota of what it implies.
 
QueenSeles said:
You didn't read my post nor understood one iota of what it implies.
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What you don't understand is that Djoker wouldn't have been in the position to bagel Nadal in the third if Nadal didn't drop his serve level massively in sets two and three. Both Nadal and Djoker served so-so(djoker a bit worse) in the first set and Nadal won. Djoker upped his serving level a bit and Nadal dropped his massively. It's one thing to have a dip for one game(happens to anyone) but when you miss 11 CONSECUTIVE FIRST SERVES, something's wrong with your focus. I thought it was a bit embarrassing when Novak made just ONE first serve in the game in which he was broken in the firs set but Nadal's serving "skills" afterwards made him look like an amateur.
 
namelessone said:
What you don't understand is that Djoker wouldn't have been in the position to bagel Nadal in the third if Nadal didn't drop his serve level massively in sets two and three. Both Nadal and Djoker served so-so(djoker a bit worse) in the first set and Nadal won. Djoker upped his serving level a bit and Nadal dropped his massively. It's one thing to have a dip for one game(happens to anyone) but when you miss 11 CONSECUTIVE FIRST SERVES, something's wrong with your focus. I thought it was a bit embarrassing when Novak made just ONE first serve in the game in which he was broken in the firs set but Nadal's serving "skills" afterwards made him look like an amateur.
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So you're telling me that if Djoker did not miss one FH or BH and hit every one of them for a winner he would not destroy Nadal?
 
Let me make it even more clear for you. What if every one of Djoker's serves was an ace, he would not then wipe Nadal from the court??? :)
 
Credit to the Joker to stay with Nadal in this match, where in the past he has mentally crumbled. He looked fresh to me, had a real desire, and was not overwhelmed by the quick start from Nadal.

He played tactically well, exposed Nadal many times with that wide serve to Nadal's backhand, softening him up ala Federer in WTF. His confidence, and especially his mental block that he has had against Nadal have drastically changed.

I think Rafa saw that the Joker wasn't going to just give this up. After dominating the entire tour, I think the Joker wanted to make his intentions clear to the Spaniard...he was there to beat him.

You can see how much it meant to him, getting the better of Nadal. This is only good for tennis, that now the Joker is FINALLY showing us the type of tennis he is capable of. Great win!!!! Fully deserved it, and hopefully he will keep going.

I remember in 08, after getting the big win in AO and IW, he decided to let Miami go, leaving in the first round round. I think this Joker though wants to win everything in his path, and I think he believes he can do the Early season, Hard Court Triple...AO, IW and Miami.

I would be something if he backs it up and does it again in Miami.
 
Outbeyond said:
I wonder if Rafa's serve wasn't on his mind because it essentially was the reason for the loss of his doubles match with his good buddy, Marc. At the end of the first set, Rafa and Marc could've stayed on course except that Rafa double-faulted on a key point...the set was gone. His poor serving in the second set was also a problem. Mind you, Marc's serve wasn't especially great, either, but Rafa knows that of the two, HE should've been able to come through.

When I saw how he played in doubles, I felt a bit of an ominous feeling about his next match.
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Probably not. It was mediocre serving most of the tournament. Low 1st serve % for his standards, high pace or not.
 
QueenSeles said:
LOLLLL, dead on. The excuses never stop. Rafa without a serve lost that game :rolleyes:. Why don't they consider that if Djokovic never missed a FH he would have double bageled Nadal.

The error these idiots keep making is they assume that the 'normal' Rafa would have made all of those serves. The mistakenly extract the 'normal' performance from the good wins :). Wrong! What they don't realize is that this IS the 'normal' Rafa. A player is the sum total of all of his actions.
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blah blah blah. :) Try watching and posting about tennis more often and then you might start getting something right. ;)
 
There's too many excuses for Rafa's loss.

Of course every players want to play at the high level from the beginning to end. But the reality is every player has lapses...Nole had his lapses too not just Nadal. He beat Nadal b/c he’s a better player on hc. You can say Nadal could have done this, done that, but you can actually say the same to all the losing players. Ivo Karlovic’s fans can come up with many excuses for his loss to Nadal too.

Also, people are forgetting that Nadal is a lefty, he has the advantage b/c his opponent has to adapt from the beginning. Of course some of his fans ignore this.
 
bolo said:
blah blah blah. :) Try watching and posting about tennis more often and then you might start getting something right. ;)
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I watched the whole match twice. I am right. You *********s are just bitter cuz you're boy at his prime is really not that great.
 
TMF said:
There's too many excuses for Rafa's loss.

Of course every players want to play at the high level from the beginning to end. But the reality is every player has lapses...Nole had his lapses too not just Nadal. He beat Nadal b/c he’s a better player on hc. You can say Nadal could have done this, done that, but you can actually say the same to all the losing players. Ivo Karlovic’s fans can come up with many excuses for his loss to Nadal too.

Also, people are forgetting that Nadal is a lefty, he has the advantage b/c his opponent has to adapt from the beginning. Of course some of his fans ignore this.
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Excellent post. These idiot ****s seem to think that Rafa's serve lapse was somehow out of the ordinary, when in fact there is no such thing. It is what it is.
 
Geez, there are alot of clowns in this forum.

Fact-Djokovic is a slightly better HC player than Nadal, and earned his victory yesterday. Rafas serve doesn't usually go off like that, but it is what it is, and Djokovic took advantage., props to Novak.

Fact-overall, Nadal is a superior all around player than Djokovic. Results speak for themselves.

Fact-overall, Federer is a superior all around player than Nadal (maybe not these days, but in their primes) Again, results speak for themselves.


Finally, these top level guys are so good these days, the competition so close, that whoever is "on" that week will take home the hardware.
 
Big Dave said:
Geez, there are alot of clowns in this forum.

Fact-Djokovic is a slightly better HC player than Nadal, and earned his victory yesterday. Rafas serve doesn't usually go off like that, but it is what it is, and Djokovic took advantage., props to Novak.

Fact-overall, Nadal is a superior all around player than Djokovic. Results speak for themselves.

Fact-overall, Federer is a superior all around player than Nadal (maybe not these days, but in their primes) Again, results speak for themselves.


Finally, these top level guys are so good these days, the competition so close, that whoever is "on" that week will take home the hardware.
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Holmes: Great post.
 
TennisFan3 said:
Does anyone think that playing BOTH singles and doubles, and going deep into them. may have hampered Nadal's serve and his intensity.

As I said before this match reminded me of Nadal's losses in Doha, IW and Miami last year. In all of those matches he came FIRING and won the 1st set and was the better player. Then the wheels fell off.

It seems to me that Nadal needs to play out of his comfort zone and maintain a very high intensity in hard court matches. When he over-plays he often has problems. Same thing happened in Doha earlier this year when he continued with the doubles. Ditto here.
Clearly he needs more time off and a less intensive schedule.

Anyway, this was one of the weirdest losses I've ever seen from Nadal together with the worst serving performance in his career. His body language was even worse than it was during his post injury days. By the end of the 3rd set - he was like screw it, I can't get anything in, I'm outta here. Not a very encouraging sign going forward.

Let's hope he doesn't revert back the grip change to his spinny serves, and also that this serving problem is not chronic. There've been experts who say that the unnatural motion of Nadal's serve will take it's toll, and he will ultimately lose it's consistency completely.
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oh? can we have some cites? Also dates to go along with those cites if possible. Thanks.
 
Rafa is at the peak of his powers now and played the best match he could at the IW finals. Alas, it just wasn't good enough to defeat the superior Djokovic. Facts don't lie ****s. You can put all the spin on it you want about how Nadal dropped this and Nadal didn't do that as he usually does. He didn't do it because he was not good enough to do it. Weep, weep and weep some more :)
 
Bunch of ****** you are. Just enjoy the game of tennis and stop arguing. If you absolutely want to express you confidence in a particular player go gamble all your life saving on them winning the next tournament.
 
Big Dave said:
Geez, there are alot of clowns in this forum.

Fact-Djokovic is a slightly better HC player than Nadal, and earned his victory yesterday. Rafas serve doesn't usually go off like that, but it is what it is, and Djokovic took advantage., props to Novak.

Fact-overall, Nadal is a superior all around player than Djokovic. Results speak for themselves.

Fact-overall, Federer is a superior all around player than Nadal (maybe not these days, but in their primes) Again, results speak for themselves.


Finally, these top level guys are so good these days, the competition so close, that whoever is "on" that week will take home the hardware.
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Yes, I pretty much agree with this post.
 
People are still talking about this match? Get over it, Djokovic won and pretty much owned Nadal in the final set.

On to the next tournament...
 
namelessone said:
Yeah, it was a pretty mediocre Rafole match. Right up there with their WTF 09 and 10' matches me thinks.
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Had it been vice versa with djokovic losing the set like nadal did you would not be making any sort of excuses for him.

And having said that nadal was not as good as in the previous sets in my view.
 
QueenSeles said:
Excellent post. These idiot ****s seem to think that Rafa's serve lapse was somehow out of the ordinary, when in fact there is no such thing. It is what it is.
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I get so tired at them discredit all the players that have beaten Rafa. Every loss they are always ready to have all the excuses to cover up for Nadal. It’s like they rehearsed it well before the tournament got started.
 
Again.

Nadal is a poor man's Federer.:oops:

Slam projections at the end of their careers:

Federer: 16 majors

Nadal: 12 majors

Nadal is a poor man's Federer.:oops:
 
TennisFan3 said:
Does anyone think that playing BOTH singles and doubles, and going deep into them. may have hampered Nadal's serve and his intensity.

As I said before this match reminded me of Nadal's losses in Doha, IW and Miami last year. In all of those matches he came FIRING and won the 1st set and was the better player. Then the wheels fell off.

It seems to me that Nadal needs to play out of his comfort zone and maintain a very high intensity in hard court matches. When he over-plays he often has problems. Same thing happened in Doha earlier this year when he continued with the doubles. Ditto here.
Clearly he needs more time off and a less intensive schedule.

Anyway, this was one of the weirdest losses I've ever seen from Nadal together with the worst serving performance in his career. His body language was even worse than it was during his post injury days. By the end of the 3rd set - he was like screw it, I can't get anything in, I'm outta here. Not a very encouraging sign going forward.

Let's hope he doesn't revert back the grip change to his spinny serves, and also that this serving problem is not chronic. There've been experts who say that the unnatural motion of Nadal's serve will take it's toll, and he will ultimately lose it's consistency completely.
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I am still curious about these experts. Any info. on this front would be much appreciated.
 
veroniquem said:
I do. Rafa always overplays on hard. DC + doubles + singles + exhos right after injury break = overdrive. I don't mean he would have won if he hadn't but he doesn't put the best chances on his side when playing so intensively/compactly on a surface that has been consistently problematic for his body in the past.


About Djokovic's season on hard so far, here are the stats: best hard court season from January to March (or start of clay season) since 1987 (date when AO became 1st slam of the year). All players quoted won AO that year:

1- Sampras in 1994: 6 titles including IW AND Miami
2- Federer in 2006: 4 titles including IW AND Miami (Djoko will override him IF- and it's a huge if- he wins Miami since his other title: Dubai is more important than Doha)
3- Edberg in 1987: 4 titles (not including IW or Miami but those were not masters then)
4- Agassi in 2001: 3 titles including IW AND Miami
- Djoko in 2011, Federer in 2004, Agassi in 2003, Agassi in 1995, Courier in 1993, Lendl in 1989: 3 titles including IW OR Miami.
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Federer in 2005 came close to having the best possible 3-4 months of the season, he won Doha, Dubai, Rotterdam, Indian Wells, Miami BUT lost in the semi-final of the Australian Open. In terms of pure wins-losses ratio Federer's 2005 is the best I can think of
 
bolo said:
I am still curious about these experts. Any info. on this front would be much appreciated.
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I know Wally Masur said that late last yr - post UsO season. He was the one harping about losing consistency. Then Mats Wilander also said something about Nadal's serve not being durable in the Game set Mats show at AO this year. Although Mats didn't go to the extent of saying that Nadal would lose his consistency eventually.
 
Fiji said:
Again.

Nadal is a poor man's Federer.:oops:
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Except, of course, for the fact Nadal has more slams at the same age, completed the career grand slam nearly four years earlier, has more 1,000s period, and enjoys a 14-8 H2H record. But other than that, he can't compare.
 
Antonio Puente said:
Except, of course, for the fact Nadal has more slams at the same age, completed the career grand slam nearly four years earlier, has more 1,000s period, and enjoys a 14-8 H2H record. But other than that, he can't compare.
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Mark my words:

Federer and Nadal when retired: Federer will have 4 more majors...

Someting like: Federer 16/17 and Nadal 12/13

Federer >>>> Nadal
 
rovex said:
Had it been vice versa with djokovic losing the set like nadal did you would not be making any sort of excuses for him.

And having said that nadal was not as good as in the previous sets in my view.
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Excuses? ANY PLAYER who serves at 25% in two outta three sets plays like crap(and will ultimately lose in most matches). If Nadal had beaten a Djoker serving like crapola for two sets I wouldn't have held his victory in high regard. BTW, I am also a Novak fan so you can spare me the crap.

While their serves were reasonable(and while djoker didn't serve great in the first, he wasn't at freaking 25%), Nadal dominated. It's obviously possible that both could have served at around the same level and Novak would have still won in three but with Nadal serving like crap(missing 11 CONSECUTIVE FIRST SERVES) the outcome was pretty clear. Novak said it was much easier for him once Nadal's serve died as he was able to get his teeth into EVERY Nadal service game, breaking him three times from the second set onwards and if he pushed it a bit more, he could have bageled Nadal.

It's no coincidence that once Nadal's serve went in the crapper, it looked like a typical Rafole match on HC: 6-3,6-2 for Novak.
 
Antonio Puente said:
Except, of course, for the fact Nadal has more slams at the same age, completed the career grand slam nearly four years earlier, has more 1,000s period, and enjoys a 14-8 H2H record. But other than that, he can't compare.
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Incorrect. Fed just turn 25 and won his 9th slams at the 2006 USO. Nadal will be 25 before the FO event is completed. They are tie.

WTF >>>> MS. Fed has 5 but Rafa has none.
 
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TennisFan3 said:
I know Wally Masur said that late last yr - post UsO season. He was the one harping about losing consistency. Then Mats Wilander also said something about Nadal's serve not being durable in the Game set Mats show at AO this year. Although Mats didn't go to the extent of saying that Nadal would lose his consistency eventually.
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thanks. Good call by wally, it was pretty bad most of the week. I get the impression that he's a bit careful with the serve after layoffs so as not to repeat what happened in late 2009.
 
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