IW/Miami double or Canada/Cincy double?

Which double is greater?

  • Total voters
    44
powerangle

powerangle

Legend
Which would you classify as a "greater" achievement?

1) On one hand, you have IW/Miami which are 'bigger' due to bigger draws, and you have to maintain your form over a longer period of time.

2) On the other hand, Canada/Cincy is in back-to-back weeks so that may be more challenging.

Interestingly, Federer has won the IW/Miami double twice...but never the Canada/Cincy double.

In the end, of course they're only Masters 1000 titles and count for the same number of points, but which is slightly more impressive/greater in your eyes?
 
I think Canada/Cincy is harder, the surfaces are more different and the weather in Cincy is usually challengingly muggy. Those 2 haven't always been 2 weeks in a row though. Can anyone confirm that?
 
there are differences in the draw sizes..miami and indian wells have 96 actice players...cincy and toronto olnly 64...but we have to say that surfaces are different....i also don't remember players capable of doing the toronto/cincy double in recent years
 
CMM said:
Roddick in 2003.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? Wow that IS awesome! I have new respect for the guy :shock:
And big server Rafter? (ha ha) Man, that's a great feat. It's interesting Sampras never did it, was Canada too slow for him?
 
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veroniquem said:
Are you sure? Wow that IS awesome! I have new respect for the guy :shock:
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I'm sure...I'm a big fan of him so I know. :)

He was on a tear on the summer hardcourts in 2003. Won Indianapolis, semis of Washington, won Canada, won Cincy, then won USO. Quite the streak. 8)

He even beat his master Federer in that streak (Toronto semis)!
 
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Roddick in 2003 was ultra-aggressive...not like the pusher he is today. His forehand was one of the most feared on tour, right up there with Federer at the time. It was huge and it was accurate, and he had all the confidence in the world.
 
powerangle said:
I'm sure...I'm a big fan of him so I know. :)

He was on a tear on the summer hardcourts in 2003. Won Indianapolis, semis of Washington, won Canada, won Cincy, then won USO. Quite the streak. 8)

He even beat his master Federer in that streak (Toronto semis)!
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Gosh, I must have missed a lot of tennis that year, I don't remember how dominant Roddick was.
It's amazing he didn't become more bitter after that, Fed really squashed a brilliant future for him :( but Roddick kept his head high and kept trying. Kudos to him. I hope he'll win another USO before retiring.
 
veroniquem said:
Gosh, I must have missed a lot of tennis that year, I don't remember how dominant Roddick was.
It's amazing he didn't become more bitter after that, Fed really squashed a brilliant future for him :( but Roddick kept his head high and kept trying. Kudos to him. I hope he'll win another USO before retiring.
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If GOAT Fed (you probably think Nadal is GOAT but we'll set that aside for now ;)) wasn't around, many players for sure would have benefited. One of the biggest ones would definitely be Roddick. He'd probably have at least 3 slams by now, maybe more.
 
veroniquem said:
Gosh, I must have missed a lot of tennis that year, I don't remember how dominant Roddick was.
It's amazing he didn't become more bitter after that, Fed really squashed a brilliant future for him :( but Roddick kept his head high and kept trying. Kudos to him. I hope he'll win another USO before retiring.
Click to expand...

:( Roddick used to be able to finish points with a big forehand. Now, he moves his opponents around with good placement, then either misses the finishing shot or simply doesnt have enough firepower to end the point, and his opponents counterattack.
 
veroniquem said:
Are you sure? Wow that IS awesome! I have new respect for the guy :shock:
Click to expand...
It sucks for Andy that they didn't introduce the U.S. Open Series and the big bonuses until the next year or he'd be in the same company as Kim Clijsters and Roger Federer — winning the open, the series and the bonus check.

But Roddick does hold the distinction of most U.S. Open Series wins (two: 2005-06) and most appearances in the top three (four: 2004-07). Meanwhile, he would have claimed an IW-Miami back-to-back this year if he hadn't let Ljubičić win a Masters 1000 title.
 
veroniquem said:
Are you sure? Wow that IS awesome! I have new respect for the guy :shock:
And big server Rafter? (ha ha) Man, that's a great feat. It's interesting Sampras never did it, was Canada too slow for him?
Click to expand...

Rafter don't have a huge serve.:mad:
 
TMF said:
For some players like Rafa, Canada/Cinci is the hardest, but other players like Murray, IW/Miami is harder.
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Murray has made final and won back to back at IW/Miami. He hasn't made back to back finals @ Canada/Cincy.
 
I remember Goodall saying a couple times that winning IW/Miami back to back is more difficult than Canada/Cincy but IDK...
 
veroniquem said:
Are you sure? Wow that IS awesome! I have new respect for the guy :shock:
And big server Rafter? (ha ha) Man, that's a great feat.
Click to expand...

Patrick Rafter's run in 1998
1998 Toronto Masters
R64: BYE
R32: Patrick Rafter def. Neville Godwin (7-5, 6-3)
R16: Patrick Rafter def. Mark Philippoussis (6-3, 6-3)
QF: Patrick Rafter def. Jonas Bjorkman (6-3, 6-2)
SF: Patrick Rafter def. Tim Henman (6-2, 6-4)
F: Patrick Rafter def. Richard Krajicek (7-6, 6-4)

1998 Cincinnati Masters
R64: BYE
R32: Patrick Rafter def. Guillaume Raoux (6-1, 6-3)
R16: Patrick Rafter def. Todd Martin (3-6, 6-3, 6-2)
QF: Patrick Rafter def. Petr Korda (6-4, 7-6)
SF: Patrick Rafter def. Yevgeny Kafelnikov (7-5, 6-0)
F: Patrick Rafter def. Pete Sampras (1-6, 7-6, 6-4)

1998 New Haven
R64: BYE
R32: Patrick Rafter def. Jeff Tarango (6-2, 6-1)
R16: Guillaume Raoux def. Patrick Rafter (7-6, 6-3)

1998 Long Island
R32: Patrick Rafter def. Javier Sanchez (6-2, 4-6, 6-4)
R16: Patrick Rafter def. Martin Damm (6-4, 6-3)
QF: Patrick Rafter def. Nicolas Escude (6-3, 6-2)
SF: Patrick Rafter def. Greg Rusedski (6-4, 7-5)
F: Patrick Rafter def. Felix Mantilla (7-6, 6-2)

1998 US Open
R128: Patrick Rafter def. Hicham Arazi (4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-3, 6-1)
R64: Patrick Rafter def. Hernan Gumy (6-4, 6-1, 6-2)
R32: Patrick Rafter def. David Nainkin (6-1, 6-1, 6-1)
R16: Patrick Rafter def. Goran Ivanisevic (6-3, 6-4, 4-6, 6-1)
QF: Patrick Rafter def. Jonas Bjorkman (6-2, 6-3, 7-5)
SF: Patrick Rafter def. Pete Sampras (6-7, 6-4, 2-6, 6-4, 6-3)
F: Patrick Rafter def. Mark Philippoussis (6-3, 3-6, 6-2, 6-0)


Andy Roddick's run in 2003
2003 Indianapolis
R64: BYE
R32: Andy Roddick def. Cyril Saulnier (6-7, 6-3, 7-6)
R16: Andy Roddick def. Gregory Carraz (6-3, 6-4)
QF: Andy Roddick def. Xavier Malisse (6-4, 6-1)
SF: Andy Roddick def. Sjeng Schalken (6-3, 6-2)
F: Andy Roddick def. Paradorn Srichaphan (7-6, 6-4)

2003 Washington
R64: BYE
R32: Andy Roddick def. Bob Bryan (7-6, 6-4)
R16: Andy Roddick def. Greg Rusedski (6-3, 7-6)
QF: Andy Roddick def. Mardy Fish (6-1, 6-4)
SF: Tim Henman def. Andy Roddick (1-6, 6-3, 7-6)

2003 Montreal Masters
R64: Andy Roddick def. Xavier Malisse (3-6, 6-0, 6-2)
R32: Andy Roddick def. Juan Ignacio Chela (7-6, 6-2)
R16: Andy Roddick def. Sebastien Grosjean (6-3, 6-3)
QF: Andy Roddick def. Karol Kucera (7-6, 6-3)
SF: Andy Roddick def. Roger Federer (6-4, 3-6, 7-6)
F: Andy Roddick def. David Nalbandian (6-1, 6-3)

2003 Cincinnati Masters
R64: Andy Roddick def. Fernando Verdasco (6-3, 6-2)
R32: Andy Roddick def. Ivan Ljubicic (6-1, 6-4)
R16: Andy Roddick def. James Blake (7-6, 6-2)
QF: Andy Roddick def. Mariano Zabaleta (6-1, 6-2)
SF: Andy Roddick def. Max Mirnyi (7-6, 6-4)
F: Andy Roddick def. Mardy Fish (4-6, 7-6, 7-6)

2003 US Open
R128: Andy Roddick def. Tim Henman (6-3, 7-6, 6-3)
R64: Andy Roddick def. Ivan Ljubicic (6-3, 6-7, 6-3, 7-6)
R32: Andy Roddick def. Flavio Saretta (6-1, 6-3, 6-3)
R16: Andy Roddick def. Xavier Malisse (6-3, 6-4, 7-6)
QF: Andy Roddick def. Sjeng Schalken (6-4, 6-2, 6-3)
SF: Andy Roddick def. David Nalbandian (6-7, 3-6, 7-6, 6-1, 6-3)
F: Andy Roddick def. Juan Carlos Ferrero (6-3, 7-6, 6-3)

veroniquem said:
It's interesting Sampras never did it, was Canada too slow for him?
Click to expand...

Amazingly, Sampras never won the Canada Masters. He was runner-up to Agassi in 1995.
 
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I don't think anyone ever won Canada (Toronto side) and Cincy back to back. Is it true? I know Fed IW and Miami back to back twice.

Edit I see it was done.
 
Agassi also won the Canada/Cincy double during his 26 match winning streak in 1995. He also did the IW/Miami double in 2001.

Is Agassi the only player to have played the finals of the Australian Open, IW, Miami, Canada, Cincy and the US Open in the same season? He went 4-2 with his two losses coming to Sampras! But he went 3-2 over Sampras in those tournaments!
 
Here's Agassi's 1995 hardcourt results:

1995 Australian Open
R128: Andre Agassi def. Grant Stafford (6-2, 6-4, 6-2)
R64: Andre Agassi def. Jerome Golmard (6-2, 6-3, 6-1)
R32: Andre Agassi def. Greg Rusedski (6-2, 6-4, 6-2)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Patrick Rafter (6-3, 6-4, 6-0)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Yevgeny Kafelnikov (6-2, 7-5, 6-0)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Aaron Krickstein (6-4, 6-4, 3-0 ret.)
F: Andre Agassi def. Pete Sampras (4-6, 6-1, 7-6, 6-4)

1995 San Jose
R32: Andre Agassi def. Fernando Meligeni (6-0, 6-2)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Marc-Kevin Goellner (7-6, 6-2)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Brian MacPhie (6-4, 6-3)
SF: Andre Agassi def. MaliVai Washington (6-4, 6-2)
F: Andre Agassi def. Michael Chang (6-2, 1-6, 6-3)

1995 Indian Wells Masters
R64: BYE
R32: Andre Agassi def. Mats Wilander (6-0, 6-2)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Thomas Enqvist (6-1, 6-3)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Wayne Ferreira (6-3, 6-4)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Boris Becker (6-4, 7-6)
F: Pete Sampras def. Andre Agassi (7-5, 6-3, 7-5)

1995 Miami Masters
R128: BYE
R64: Andre Agassi def. Shuzo Matsuoka (6-2, 6-4)
R32: Andre Agassi def. Tommy Ho (6-0, 6-2)
R16: Andre Agassi def. MaliVai Washington (6-3, 6-4)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Wayne Ferreira (6-2, 6-4)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Magnus Larsson (7-5, 4-6, 7-6)
F: Andre Agassi def. Pete Sampras (3-6, 6-2, 7-6)

1995 Tokyo Outdoor
R64: BYE
R32: Andre Agassi def. Tommy Ho (6-3, 6-2)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Sebastien Lareau (6-3, 7-5)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Scott Draper (6-4, 6-3)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Wayne Ferreira (7-5, 6-2)
F: Jim Courier def. Andre Agassi (6-4, 6-3)

1995 Washington
R64: BYE
R32: Andre Agassi def. Rodolphe Gilbert (6-2, 6-2)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Michael Joyce (6-2, 6-2)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Mauricio Hadad (6-3, 6-4)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Todd Martin (6-4, 7-6)
F: Andre Agassi def. Stefan Edberg (6-4, 2-6, 7-5)

1995 Montreal Masters
R64: BYE
R32: Andre Agassi def. Jeff Tarango (6-3, 6-4)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Daniel Vacek (6-4, 6-2)
QF: Andre Agassi def. MaliVai Washington (7-6, 6-3)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Mats Wilander (6-2, 6-0)
F: Andre Agassi def. Pete Sampras (3-6, 6-2, 6-3)

1995 Cincinnati Masters
R64: BYE
R32: Andre Agassi def. Daniel Vacek (7-6, 6-1)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Alberto Berasategui (6-0, 0-6, 6-2)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Renzo Furlan (6-3, 6-4)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Thomas Enqvist (6-4, 6-2)
F: Andre Agassi def. Michael Chang (7-5, 6-2)

1995 New Haven
R64: BYE
R32: Andre Agassi def. Fernando Meligeni (6-4, 7-5)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Patrick Rafter (6-2, 6-4)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Sergi Bruguera (6-4, 6-1)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Mats Wilander (6-3, 6-3)
F: Andre Agassi def. Richard Krajicek (3-6, 7-6, 6-3)

1995 US Open
R128: Andre Agassi def. Bryan Shelton (6-2, 6-2, 6-2)
R64: Andre Agassi def. Alex Corretja (5-7, 6-3, 5-7, 6-0, 6-2)
R32: Andre Agassi def. Stefan Edberg (6-4, 6-3, 6-1)
R16: Andre Agassi def. Jared Palmer (7-5, 6-3, 6-2)
QF: Andre Agassi def. Petr Korda (6-4, 6-2, 1-6, 7-5)
SF: Andre Agassi def. Boris Becker (7-6, 7-6, 4-6, 6-4)
F: Pete Sampras def. Andre Agassi (6-4, 6-3, 4-6, 7-5)

1995 Davis Cup SF
2nd Rubber: Andre Agassi def. Mats Wilander (7-6, 6-2, 6-2)
 
As for the Indian Wells/Miami double. It was done by Courier in 1991, Chang in 1992, Sampras in 1994, Rios in 1998, Agassi in 2001, and Federer in 2005 and 2006.
 
Nadal denied both Djokovic and Murray a IW-Miami double

Joker in 2007 lost the IW final, but won Miami
Muzza in 2009 lost the IW final, but won Miami
 
Mustard said:
As for the Indian Wells/Miami double. It was done by Courier in 1991, Chang in 1992, Sampras in 1994, Rios in 1998, Agassi in 2001, and Federer in 2005 and 2006.
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Thanks for that.

I guess the Canada/Cincy double has been tougher to win, so it's more impressive so to speak.
 
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Roddick had to win 12 matches in 13 days to complete his Canada-Cincy double in 2003. Very impressive stuff, as was going 27-1 during that Summer.

Federer would have become world no. 1 for the first time in his career had he beaten Roddick in their Montreal semi-final that year. Afterwards he admitted that this had weighed heavily on his mind, and that he had choked.
 
Gizo said:
Roddick had to win 12 matches in 13 days to complete his Canada-Cincy double in 2003. Very impressive stuff, as was going 27-1 during that Summer.

Federer would have become world no. 1 for the first time in his career had he beaten Roddick in their Montreal semi-final that year. Afterwards he admitted that this had weighed heavily on his mind, and that he had choked.
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Federer very well would have likely ended 2003 as #1 if he had won that match against Roddick that he choked away. 6 years ending #1 slipped through his fingers....just a few points.
 
RCizzle65 said:
Would he still have it even after Roddick won the US Open?
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Not sure, but I think so. I remember something about Federer just needing one more match win to get to #1, at the end of the year (this was talked about at the TMC that year). I think the difference between a semifinal showing and a final showing at a Master Series would have been enough. The equivalent of one more round robin win at the TMC would have been enough too I think (but as it was, he already won all the matches at TMC). So yeah, he just needed one more win from somewhere.
 
If Federer had won that Montreal semi-final but lost to Nalbandian in the final, and then both Roddick and him had achieved their exact same results for the rest of the year after the tournament, Federer would have ended the year with 4,500 points, and Roddick with 4,260.

As well as tying Sampras's 6 years ended as world no. 1 (though not consecutively), he also would have had 7 consecutive years as world no. 1 in early August from 2003-2009 after Canada (in 2008 he wasn't dethroned by Nadal until August 18th when his Cincy points dropped off).

I think that Federer went into the 2003 Masters Cup with a mathematical chance of becoming year end no. 1, albeit an extremely slim one. He needed to win the tournament (which he did do), and also needed both Ferrero and Roddick to flame out in the round robin stage (Ferrero did but Roddick didn't).
 
Gizo said:
If Federer had won that Montreal semi-final but lost to Nalbandian in the final, and then both Roddick and him had achieved their exact same results for the rest of the year after the tournament, Federer would have ended the year with 4,500 points, and Roddick with 4,260.

As well as tying Sampras's 6 years ended as world no. 1 (though not consecutively), he also would have had 7 consecutive years as world no. 1 in early August from 2003-2009 after Canada (in 2008 he wasn't dethroned by Nadal until August 18th when his Cincy points dropped off).

I think that Federer went into the 2003 Masters Cup with a mathematical chance of becoming year end no. 1, albeit an extremely slim one. He needed to win the tournament (which he did do), and also needed both Ferrero and Roddick to flame out in the round robin stage (Ferrero did but Roddick didn't).
Click to expand...

Federer had a pretty tremendous latter half of 2003, but I think Roddick probably deserved that no. 1 a bit more considering their Slam results.

Roddick:

AO: SF
RG: 1st
Wim: SF
US: W

Federer:
AO: 4th
RG: 1st
Wim: W
US: 4th
+ TMC
 
Yes I agree that Roddick deserved his year end no. 1 ranking that year, reaching 3 grand slam semi-finals while Federer only reached one.

However you could also make a case for Ferrero, who was probably the most consistent player in 2003. He had better slam results than both Roddick and Federer:
AO: QF
RG: W
W: 4th
US: F
+ Monte-Carlo and Madrid

Agassi was also very consistent as well:
AO: W
RG: QF
W: 4th
US: SF
+ Miami

The 2003 Masters Cup was the tournament where Federer's dominance started. He beat all 3 of his main rivals at the time, Roddick, Ferrero and Agassi (twice) plus his arch nemesis Nalbandian.

In-between Wimbledon and the Masters Cup that year he was very inconsistent, losing 8 times, and choking against Roddick and Hewitt (in the Davis Cup) who would become his 2 favourite punching bags.
 
"greater" achievement I think is def IW/Miami. Bigger draw and also top players sometime save themselves for USO while the former is kind of the cap of the first hardcourt season.
 
Gizo said:
In-between Wimbledon and the Masters Cup that year he was very inconsistent, losing 8 times, and choking against Roddick and Hewitt (in the Davis Cup) who would become his 2 favourite punching bags.
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Federer choked briefly against Hewitt in the Davis Cup match, in the third set when Federer was serving for the match at 5-3 and 30-30, when Federer fluffed a Hewitt shot that landed on the baseline. He fell victim to a vintage Hewitt comeback. It was such a thrilling ride seeing Hewitt reel him in bit by bit as the Aussie crowd roared him on. Federer got his revenge, though, multiple times.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Canady/Cincy, ,the time of the year and speed of the courts make it more difficult.
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Yeah the sudden adjustment is pretty hard these days. I'm not sure if Canada has always played slow or is it something more recent. And the last 3 years it's been easier competing in Cinci after Canada because the top seeds get a bye. Federer suffered in 2006 because he only had one rest day after Toronto, making Cinci the only tournament where he didn't make a final all year!

There is a few days of gap between IW & Miami so it's not much of a physical burden though it's really hot in Miami at that time. Though it also means players have to sustain their excellence for much longer. But anything can be accomplished with cakewalk draws - just ask the ****s.
 
Gizo said:
If Federer had won that Montreal semi-final but lost to Nalbandian in the final, and then both Roddick and him had achieved their exact same results for the rest of the year after the tournament, Federer would have ended the year with 4,500 points, and Roddick with 4,260.

As well as tying Sampras's 6 years ended as world no. 1 (though not consecutively), he also would have had 7 consecutive years as world no. 1 in early August from 2003-2009 after Canada (in 2008 he wasn't dethroned by Nadal until August 18th when his Cincy points dropped off).

I think that Federer went into the 2003 Masters Cup with a mathematical chance of becoming year end no. 1, albeit an extremely slim one. He needed to win the tournament (which he did do), and also needed both Ferrero and Roddick to flame out in the round robin stage (Ferrero did but Roddick didn't).
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Indeed. Federer also would have surpassed Sampras's 286 weeks at #1.

Federer may have stopped Roddick from winning a few more slams, but Roddick certainly cut into Federer's legacy as well (not nearly as much as the other way around, but still sapped some stats from Fed...).
 
powerangle said:
Roddick in 2003 was ultra-aggressive...not like the pusher he is today. His forehand was one of the most feared on tour, right up there with Federer at the time. It was huge and it was accurate, and he had all the confidence in the world.
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One of the biggest myths on these boards. 2009 Roddick would wipe the floor with 2003 Roddick. 2003 Roddick committed A TON of unforced errors, and didn't have as many forehand winners as you would think. Now, with 2010 Roddick, you're right about the ultra-defensiveness.
 
Commando Tennis Shorts said:
One of the biggest myths on these boards. 2009 Roddick would wipe the floor with 2003 Roddick. 2003 Roddick committed A TON of unforced errors, and didn't have as many forehand winners as you would think. Now, with 2010 Roddick, you're right about the ultra-defensiveness.
Click to expand...

It's all relative. I have seen lots of Andy's matches, and his 2003 aggressive forehands, week-in-week-out, were more accurate than Andy's 2009 aggressive forehands.

I'm not comparing the accuracy of 2009 with 2003. Of course Andy of 2009 is more accurate. And of course in 2003 Andy would make way more unforced errors. But that's because, save for a few matches, in 2009 he in general doesn't go for as much on his forehands. But if he were to clock away like he did in 2003, he would on average make more errors (in 2009) than if he went for the same aggressive shots in 2003. It may be in part due to Andy's lack of relative confidence in his shots that he is more passive these days.

And about his forehand winners....no he didn't hit a lot (but still more than these days of course), but they didn't have to be winners. They still penetrated more and did more damage.
 
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illkhiboy said:
Federer suffered in 2006 because he only had one rest day after Toronto, making Cinci the only tournament where he didn't make a final all year!
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That's the only time in the whole of 2006 that Federer lost to someone not named Nadal.
 
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