J. Henin - One of the Greatests in the Making

aj_m2009

Professional
Justine Fanatic said:
Of course! It was also on the tennis news boards.
You sure you watched it, 'cause she didn't yell at her, she just looked at her. And then afterwards asked. I don't think any of that is yelling.
 

gugafanatic

Hall of Fame
She is producing remarkable results conidering her injuries. She is the dominant player on the womens tour and will probably win the FO.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
Camilio Pascual said:
Bulloney! Anybody who saw the receiver's hand go up during their service motion and complete the service motion to avoid pulled muscle/rib problem would be VERY likely to complain. What you are saying is a ridiculous and unsupportable fantasy. At least keep it real.
I assign the responsibility thusly:
1. An incompetent and passive chair.
2. Serena for not complaining effectively and asking for help or clarification from the linespersons or challenging Henin's lying.
3. Henin for lying, cheating behaviour only if she is an amateur, just greasy behaviour since she is a pro.
if serena treated the other players on the tour with an ounce of respect they may do the same for her. its not like henin did it to steffi graf, she did it to serena, a player who has never said anything positive about anyone except herself.

its amazing that a match consisting of 250 pts was won because serena didnt get to hit another first serve, one would have to be a fool to believe that.
 

faste5683

New User
framer said:
You are missing the point. One can play by the rules and still not be a sportsman. Justine didn't meet either standard - the judge asked Justine if she held up her hand to pause the game as Serena was serving - clearly Justine did and she denied it. It's not like the judge asked Henin if she thought a ball was in or out, the judge asked her "did you raise your hand to stop play while Serena was serving?" -- Since when is lying to the judge playing within the rules?
This sounds good, but I suggest you check out the WTA rules. The umpire did not ask Justine about raising her hand because he couldn't. It would be against the rules for him to do so. Umpires don't ask players anything - it is their job to make all decisions during the course of a match.

I don't know where this myth started, but it's getting old...
 
This sounds good, but I suggest you check out the WTA rules. The umpire did not ask Justine about raising her hand because he couldn't. It would be against the rules for him to do so. Umpires don't ask players anything - it is their job to make all decisions during the course of a match.
The umpire DID ask Justine is she raised her hand. The question may not have been expressed, but it was implied. That is why Ulrich LOOKED at Justine.

To my mind, she's the greatest technical player since Graf.
Shows what you know about technique. All Graf did was win. Have you ever seen Lindsay Davenport play? Henin hits a fair share of hunched from the waist backhands, and her forehand has a weird sprawled-leg/backfoot hitting/sideward momentum look to it.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
driger is practicing some "revisionist history." Henin didn't "partially" put up her hand (signaling she wasn't ready for Serena to serve). She clearly put up her hand.

The Ump didn't see it, but Serena did. In that moment, Henin became a no-class cheater.

I am no Serena "fanatic". Look at my posts. I'm one of her harshest critics for squandering her talent. (aj knows that, right?)

- KK
 

driger

Banned
faste5683 said:
This sounds good, but I suggest you check out the WTA rules. The umpire did not ask Justine about raising her hand because he couldn't. It would be against the rules for him to do so. Umpires don't ask players anything - it is their job to make all decisions during the course of a match.

I don't know where this myth started, but it's getting old...
bravo! its not the players job to referee the match. had the serve been an ace, according to the rules, it would have counted and serena would never complained. and umpires do not appreciate the players getting involved(i.e. conceding points), no matter who benefits.
 
bravo! its not the players job to referee the match. had the serve been an ace, according to the rules, it would have counted and serena would never complained. and umpires do not appreciate the players getting involved, no matter who benefits.
It's this kind of personality that elect, and re-elect Bush to restore honor, and prestige to the US Presidency.
 

Chloe

Rookie
Bertchel Banks said:
...and let her gain martyr status? That's too easy. Karma has done a lovely job setting her straight though. The Gods were watching.
Yes, Karma has certainly damned her. The worst moments of her career have all come after that match.
 

YEMntFtb

Rookie
Chloe said:
I expect a formal apology from her, along with an apology from every player who has ever done anything that was not 100% sporting in spirit (protested a good call, failed to overrule a bad call, etc.). I'd also like to see all these players give back those wins, because they didn't really count.

I'm sorry but to think one or two bad calls makes a match, your wrong. Bad calls happen all the time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The fact that Serena lost proves she isn't mentally strong enough to put bad calls aside and play her game.
 

Max G.

Legend
Bertchel Banks said:
The umpire DID ask Justine is she raised her hand. The question may not have been expressed, but it was implied. That is why Ulrich LOOKED at Justine.
Oh my. Now you expect Justine to READ the umpire's mind? To assume that since the umpire LOOKED at her, that means she was being asked a question?

Whether it is a player's place to officiate matches is debatable - but I am 101% sure that players should not be required to pick up "implied" cues from the umpire.

I saw the incident. It looked as follows:
Henin raises her hand.
Serena serves.
Henin does not return it and stands there with her hand raised.
Serena and the umpire talk. Henin stands there looking around. The umpire looks at Henin. Henin shrugs her shoulders. The umpire makes a ruling, Henin gets ready to recieve serve.

I see no question being asked or answered there. A look does not constitute a question, and a gesture certainly cannot indicate an answer to a question that was never asked.
The look could have meant a bunch of things:
1) Nothing. The umpire is human, he looks around with no implied intent or anything.
2) "Did you raise your hand?"
3) "Was the ball in?"
4) "Was the ball out?"
5) "Did you ask me something?"

Note that with the crowd noise, and given the occasion, it is QUITE likely that Justine did not know what Serena had been saying to the umpire, especially give that English was not her first language. I know that in her shoes, I would probably be absorbed to the point where I'm not noticing all the antics of my opponent - or if not, then I would be trying my best to ignore what's going on around me and concentrate on making a gameplan for the next point.

Now, Henin's shrug. I can think of a bunch of things that could possibly mean:

1) "I didn't raise my hand."
2) "What are you looking at me for, are you asking me something?"
3) "What does Serena want?"
4) "I can't continue play until the crowd settles down."
5) "I don't know what the rules are on this case, am I about to recieve a first or second serve?"
6) "It's your ruling, make the call and leave me out of it"
7) "I didn't see it, come down and check the mark if you want to verify the call."


Frankly, the umpire should know better than to assume that if he "looks" at a player that he'll be understood and responded to. If the umpire wanted to know something, then he should have asked Justine and not just "looked."
 
Oh my. Now you expect Justine to READ the umpire's mind? To assume that since the umpire LOOKED at her, that means she was being asked a question?
Of course. It followed the logical chain of events.

Whether it is a player's place to officiate matches is debatable...
Like the professor told us, when the law is with you, argue the law. When the facts are with you, argue the facts. When both are against you confuse the heck outta them.

You, Max G, are doing an excellent job on option 3. That's it, the entire incident had nothing to do with the hand, or the serve, but Ulrich delegating her duty upon Henin's shoulders. Yeah, that was the issue.
 

Chloe

Rookie
YEMntFtb said:
I'm sorry but to think one or two bad calls makes a match, your wrong. Bad calls happen all the time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The fact that Serena lost proves she isn't mentally strong enough to put bad calls aside and play her game.
Indeed. I would be wrong. If I had said that, that is.
 
I'm sorry but to think one or two bad calls makes a match, your wrong. Bad calls happen all the time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The fact that Serena lost proves she isn't mentally strong enough to put bad calls aside and play her game.
If her lost was proof of mental weakness, isn't it logical to conclude she's one to be affected by a bad call or two during a match?
 

faste5683

New User
Max G. said:
Frankly, the umpire should know better than to assume that if he "looks" at a player that he'll be understood and responded to. If the umpire wanted to know something, then he should have asked Justine and not just "looked."
Up until this point, this was a great post! But here, I have to say again, that
it's against the rules for the umpire to ask a player ANYTHING.

Ed
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Kaptain Karl said:
driger is practicing some "revisionist history." Henin didn't "partially" put up her hand (signaling she wasn't ready for Serena to serve). She clearly put up her hand.

The Ump didn't see it, but Serena did. In that moment, Henin became a no-class cheater.

I am no Serena "fanatic". Look at my posts. I'm one of her harshest critics for squandering her talent. (aj knows that, right?)

- KK
I completely agree, she has lost all respect I had for her and she isn't getting it back. And yes Justine Fanatic, I know she wont lose any sleep over it. She flat out cheated there, she could have just as easily said "Yes, I put my hand up", but no, she obviously isn't honest enough to do that. But as I've said before that isn't the only thing she has done, she has also faked cramps several times(and I know, several people have done it but she seems to do it the most). Like in AO in '03 against Davenport, that was obviously fake.

P.S.
Yes, I know you are very hard on Serena.
 
Chloe said:
Yes, Karma has certainly damned her. The worst moments of her career have all come after that match.
That's right, the:

  • US SF with Capriati
  • US Open
  • Australian Open
  • a few other tournamnets

and the last couple of tournaments this year!

Fantastic!
 
aj_m2009 said:
I completely agree, she has lost all respect I had for her and she isn't getting it back. And yes Justine Fanatic, I know she wont lose any sleep over it. She flat out cheated there, she could have just as easily said "Yes, I put my hand up", but no, she obviously isn't honest enough to do that. But as I've said before that isn't the only thing she has done, she has also faked cramps several times(and I know, several people have done it but she seems to do it the most). Like in AO in '03 against Davenport, that was obviously fake.

P.S.
Yes, I know you are very hard on Serena.
Justine didn't cheat, Serena cheated. Serena saw Justine's hand up, knew she wasn't ready and still started to serve! What a cheat Serena is!!!

aj_m2009 do me a favour ........... SHUT UP and GROW UP!!! We are not bothered by what you say AT ALL (that is myself and I'm sure Justine Henin-Hardenne). I will of course tell her your opinions of her after she has won the final tomorrow in Berlin (we're having lunch), so we'll see what she says. I hope she's not having soup, because I may have to stop her crying into it!!!!!!!
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Justine Fanatic said:
Justine didn't cheat, Serena cheated. Serena saw Justine's hand up, knew she wasn't ready and still started to serve! What a cheat Serena is!!!
Are you blind or what? Wait...that's a stupid question because you obviously are. Serena was already serving when Justine put her hand up.

aj_m2009 do me a favour ........... SHUT UP and GROW UP!!! We are not bothered by what you say AT ALL (that is myself and I'm sure Justine Henin-Hardenne). I will of course tell her your opinions of her after she has won the final tomorrow in Berlin (we're having lunch), so we'll see what she says. I hope she's not having soup, because I may have to stop her crying into it!!!!!!!
You shut up and grow up. And get a brain too. I'm not trying to bother anyone but you obviously can't tell that. And sure you're having lunch together.
 
aj_m2009 said:
Are you blind or what? Wait...that's a stupid question because you obviously are. Serena was already serving when Justine put her hand up.

20:20 vision thank you. Serena cheated that's all. Like she always does.


And sure you're having lunch together.
Oh yes! I told you, I hope she doesn't have soup. I'll take the kleenex with just in case. I'll let you know just how much she cries when I tell her your feelings about her.
 

framer

New User
driger said:
bravo! its not the players job to referee the match. had the serve been an ace, according to the rules, it would have counted and serena would never complained. and umpires do not appreciate the players getting involved(i.e. conceding points), no matter who benefits.
There are two sides that to the "had it been an ace" argument. Had it been an ace we know that Serena would not have complained about the hand BUT don't think for a second that Henin would have just walked to the ad side to receive the next serve - she would have complained to the ref that her hand was up and she was not ready.

Ask yourself this question (even though it would never happen as I imagine the ref would ask a linesman instead) - if Serena hit an ace then Henin protested that she was not ready and the ref then asked Serena "was Henin's hand up" - how would Serena answer? You all have your opinions on how Serena would answer, factoring in her past antics, sportsmanship and the rules of the game, but we know how Henin answered this question for sure with a blank look and a greasy hand.
 

aj_m2009

Professional
20:20 vision thank you. Serena cheated that's all. Like she always does.
Now explain to me how Serena cheated if she was midway through her serve motion when Justine put her hand up? And why are you just telling me this, there have been several other people say what I have said too?

Justine Fanatic said:
Oh yes! I told you, I hope she doesn't have soup. I'll take the kleenex with just in case. I'll let you know just how much she cries when I tell her your feelings about her.
And how old are you, 9...10 maybe? Or do you just act that age?
 

driger

Banned
framer said:
There are two sides that to the "had it been an ace" argument. Had it been an ace we know that Serena would not have complained about the hand BUT don't think for a second that Henin would have just walked to the ad side to receive the next serve - she would have complained to the ref that her hand was up and she was not ready.

Ask yourself this question (even though it would never happen as I imagine the ref would ask a linesman instead) - if Serena hit an ace then Henin protested that she was not ready and the ref then asked Serena "was Henin's hand up" - how would Serena answer? You all have your opinions on how Serena would answer, factoring in her past antics, sportsmanship and the rules of the game, but we know how Henin answered this question for sure with a blank look and a greasy hand.
henin maybe would have complained. but it wouldn't have mattered. time was not called before the point had started(although henin may attempted too), and henin was in the receivers box. this is why we have umpires. the players know and are taught not to concede points. you win some you lose some, they even out. and conceding points also belittles the umpire. you could find controversial moments like this involving all the champions.
 

DashaandSafin

Hall of Fame
Haha wow...what a thread... But really guys who hasent cheated at least once or twice in thier lifetime. Id say cut the little girl a break eh?
 

framer

New User
Justine Fanatic said:
Justine didn't cheat, Serena cheated. Serena saw Justine's hand up, knew she wasn't ready and still started to serve! What a cheat Serena is!!!

aj_m2009 do me a favour ........... SHUT UP and GROW UP!!! We are not bothered by what you say AT ALL (that is myself and I'm sure Justine Henin-Hardenne). I will of course tell her your opinions of her after she has won the final tomorrow in Berlin (we're having lunch), so we'll see what she says. I hope she's not having soup, because I may have to stop her crying into it!!!!!!!
Hey Fanatic - I have a suggestion for you. Clearly you are a big (perhaps the biggest) fan of Justine. I imagine your passion and love of the game is unequaled. You model your game to match that of Henin's. Your backhand and footwork are superb. People at the tennis courts are amazed at how much pace you can generate on your serve. Ahh, but you are missing something...that X factor...we will call it "Playing by Henin's rules." It has been said that tennis is a mental game. I have kindly outlined a script for you to rehearse prior to your next match. Memorize this like the great actress Henin and use it as the basis for your start of the match conversation with your opponent. This way your opponent won't be confused like those TV commentators and the silly people on the TW forums.

---------------------------------------------
You: Hi, how are you? I love this game, don't you? I love playing this game but I like it even more when I play by The Henin Rules.

Opponent: Huh? What's that?

You: Yes, The Henin Rules. This is how it works. When you are serving, I will hold my hand up. Never you mind about my hand, just serve, ok?

Opponent: But holding up your hand means that you are not ready to receive.

You: Not with The Henin Rules. If I hold up my hand, it is a meaningless gesture. Imagine that the hand was never raised. That's how I look at it. In fact if you ask me about my raised hand, I'll just give you a blank stare, ok?

Opponent: What if you really are not ready to receive serve? How will I know?

You: Good point. Let's agree that if I hop on my left leg and scream out "I have a virus" then you'll know I wasn't ready to receive your serve.

Opponent: Uh, ok. I have to say I am not familiar with these rules. But now that I think about it, it does explain what happened at the French Open a few years back during the Henin/Williams match....Serena was so foolish to complain. I guess if Serena concentrated on learning the The Henin Rules of the game instead of pretending to be a fashion designer, then that misunderstanding would not have taken place. I clearly get it now - the raised hand has no meaning!

You: Well, let me clarify...it does and it doesn't. Let's say you serve an ace. At that point I will say I wasn't ready and you will have to hit that serve again. You see, with The Henin Rules, if you serve an ace and I was not ready, I don't have to hop on my left leg. But if you serve a fault, then, well, it's a fault. Get it?

Opponent: Now I am really confused. This doesn't seem fair. This seems like cheating. If it isn't cheating, then I don't know what you call it.

You: Have you been listening to me? It is called The Henin Rules. Let's go out there and play. After you lose the match because it doesn't seem right, I'll explain some other parts of The Henin Rules like only faking cramps when you are losing, never when you are winning and the proper way to grease one's hand and the best way to clean off the grease in the locker room.

Opponent: Thanks. I am still learning this game, I thought I knew how to play but I guess there is so much that I can still learn. Grease, eh? Is it better to use liquid hand soap or bar soap to wash off grease.....and that blank stare...do you practice that in front of a mirror....
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
DashaandSafin said:
Haha wow...what a thread... But really guys who hasent cheated at least once or twice in thier lifetime. Id say cut the little girl a break eh?
Agree, what a thread! The reason this thread exists now is because JHH has come back, and has been winning like crazy. Some people can't take that. Well, too bad. Get used to it!
 
The tennis guy said:
Agree, what a thread! The reason this thread exists now is because JHH has come back, and has been winning like crazy. Some people can't take that. Well, too bad. Get used to it!

My sentiments exactly!!!

She is back - and winning EVERYTHING, so just move on. It's 2 years already - I just can't believe these people - amazing, so amazing. I feel very sorry for them - very sad.

***************​

Oh and to the guy who wrote the little script that to tell you the truth I couldn't really be bothered reading ...... , have you written for the soap General Hospital? That was also very boring!!
 

faste5683

New User
The tennis guy said:
Agree, what a thread! The reason this thread exists now is because JHH has come back, and has been winning like crazy. Some people can't take that. Well, too bad. Get used to it!
:)

Exactly. It's gonna be a long year if they don't get (used) to it.
 

fedfan

Rookie
justine fan: you are so biased its not even funny
if you would open your eyes for a second youd see that no one on the board is saying that everyone is perfect (i.e. no one is a cheater) but that justine definetly cheated on that day. your comments and remarks are so idiotic. obviosly people on this board dont like some players (maybe because they cheat) so stop whining if they talk about justine. grow up.


ps. justine definetly cheated
 

Chloe

Rookie
She cheated every bit as much as any player who has ever been dishonest about a line call has cheated. Especially those who wipe the mark on clay. ;)

If it were up to me, all these players would be tarred and feathered.
 
fedfan said:
justine fan: you are so biased its not even funny
if you would open your eyes for a second youd see that no one on the board is saying that everyone is perfect (i.e. no one is a cheater) but that justine definetly cheated on that day. your comments and remarks are so idiotic. obviosly people on this board dont like some players (maybe because they cheat) so stop whining if they talk about justine. grow up.


ps. justine definetly cheated
Does no one have a sense of humour on this board??????????

I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
Justine Fanatic said:
I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?
Finally!!! It only took you three pages of defending her to finally admit she's a cheater.

"So what?" If you don't know, you have a bigger problem than trying to defend Henin on this thread.

- KK
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Justine Fanatic said:
Does no one have a sense of humour on this board??????????

I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?
Huh? Would you care to cite a few, or many examples of "...every other tennis player." cheating?
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
Chadwixx said:
its not like henin did it to steffi graf, she did it to serena, a player who has never said anything positive about anyone except herself.

its amazing that a match consisting of 250 pts was won because serena didnt get to hit another first serve, one would have to be a fool to believe that.
As to your first quote, nice to see someone feels Henin's act was intentional, I suspected it was specifically directed at Serena, but wasn't really sure given her conduct to other players. But, if a Henin fan thinks so, it makes me think again it is possible.

Agree with your 2nd quote. BTW, which poster(s) asserted that?
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
Justine Fanatic said:
I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?
Bingo! Henin's a cheat!
Wow! I'm not a Henin fan and I merely call her a greaser. Now that you have brought this up, there was a penalty for illegal coaching assessed against her, wasn't there? along with every other tennis player, no doubt.
 

oldguysrule

Semi-Pro
This has been really interesting....to a point. It really boils down to this... How much responsibility does a professional tennis player have in assisting the umpire with his decisions? Justine may have wanted to stop the point but realized that serena was already serving...so let the umpire decide. Serena may have seen the hand but decided to go ahead and serve...let the umpire decide. (by the way if she didn't like her toss or the wind had blown it or someone had yelled at her, I bet she could have stopped her motion) If a ball on the line is called out, do players overrule the linesman?

It really is hard to get into the head of another person and make assumptions about what that person is thinking. Why don't we give everyone the benefit of the doubt and enjoy this great game. I tell my son if it's close, play 'em.

The sun is shining...I think I will go hit some with my son.
 
The umpires are there to officiate and it was the umpire who erred in not allowing serena to take the serve again. [assuming there is a rule that applies in this situation].

IMO pros can't cheat because the umpires officiate the game, they can only display bad sportsmanship.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
Camilio Pascual said:
As to your first quote, nice to see someone feels Henin's act was intentional, I suspected it was specifically directed at Serena, but wasn't really sure given her conduct to other players. But, if a Henin fan thinks so, it makes me think again it is possible.

Agree with your 2nd quote. BTW, which poster(s) asserted that?
u make it sound like it was a calculated plan. put urself in her position, ur playing someone that gives u and others zero respect then she asks for a let. what would u do?

if its any other player beside serena or capriati they would have gotten a first serve, but u cant treat ppl like crap and expect them to treat u nicely.
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
Chadwixx said:
u make it sound like it was a calculated plan. put urself in her position, ur playing someone that gives u and others zero respect then she asks for a let. what would u do?

if its any other player beside serena or capriati they would have gotten a first serve, but u cant treat ppl like crap and expect them to treat u nicely.
What would I do? Let's see, I raised my hand, the server continues her motion, dumps it in the net, and then makes it clear she saw my hand up by objecting.
Well, one huge difference between you and me, Chadwixx, is that it wouldn't matter one whit whether the player treated me nice or not. I would admit I held my hand up. I'd hate to have millions of people think of me as a cheat for my greasy behaviour.

I find it rather strange of you to assert that off court behaviour should affect the application of tennis rules. I don't get the relevancy and feel considerations like this would corrupt the game very quickly. Where did you get that idea? Don't you think the integrity and not just the competency of the chair would come into question if he gave out serves based on your criteria?
 
Camilio Pascual said:
What would I do? Let's see, I raised my hand, the server continues her motion, dumps it in the net, and then makes it clear she saw my hand up by objecting.
Well, one huge difference between you and me, Chadwixx, is that it wouldn't matter one whit whether the player treated me nice or not. I would admit I held my hand up. I'd hate to have millions of people think of me as a cheat for my greasy behaviour.

I find it rather strange of you to assert that off court behaviour should affect the application of tennis rules. I don't get the relevancy and feel considerations like this would corrupt the game very quickly. Where did you get that idea? Don't you think the integrity and not just the competency of the chair would come into question if he gave out serves based on your criteria?
millions dont think of justine as a cheat, its just a few morons who don't understand the rules.
 

fastdunn

Legend
There's nothing free in life. She did cheat one free and life will make her pay for that.

It's really sad to watch this great talent tarnished by one cheating act.

Everytime I watch her playing, I always ask "This is an unusual talent. Why did
she cheat that one point?".

I hope it does not affect her confidence...
 
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