J011yroger Stroke Inventory.

lawrence

Hall of Fame
haha quick question, are you living well off?
that looks like a personal court and it looks very nice too haha
 

Ultra2HolyGrail

Hall of Fame
J011yroger, very high level strokes. The nitpicking (and I will do it too) about your left foot coming through and the followthrough are symptoms, not the problem. You tend to move your head and right shoulder through the stroke and upwards little quickly (a bit of a bail-out) when the ball is close to you, or high (mostly at the start of the video). This pulls your racket through around your head and brings your left foot through. When you had to reach for the ball a bit (out or down), your head stayed still longer. I would expect you to hit well on the run because of this. Just keep your head and shoulder into the shot a split second longer. Again, very good strokes, just nitpicking.

Awesome post about moving the head, i think he needs to keep it down and steady through the shot.
 
I am going to start a video stroke inventory. In this thread I will post videos of my strokes, hitting sessions and match play.

I intend to continue to update this as I go on, and continue adding different videos.

Have not played in two weeks, due to my sprained wrist, and decided to fool around with my ball machine, and video camera.

All I could do was hit backhands, so here they are. My first entry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3n1X6oKH_s

Backhands 6/23/2007

J
Nice Strokes Jo11. What courts are those? Are they in Nassau County? I am from Suffolk county (Port Jeff/ Stony Brook) originally and they don't look too familiar to me, unless they are the courts in Massapequa ,Farmingdale, or I think suffolk community college. Good luck with your game and wrist.
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger, very high level strokes. The nitpicking (and I will do it too) about your left foot coming through and the followthrough are symptoms, not the problem. You tend to move your head and right shoulder through the stroke and upwards little quickly (a bit of a bail-out) when the ball is close to you, or high (mostly at the start of the video). This pulls your racket through around your head and brings your left foot through. When you had to reach for the ball a bit (out or down), your head stayed still longer. I would expect you to hit well on the run because of this. Just keep your head and shoulder into the shot a split second longer. Again, very good strokes, just nitpicking.
Yup, actually that is more predominant on my FH side, and I have been working to keep my head still more. I'll bail a bit on a shot when it is too close to me, and I still want to hit a forcing shot off of it, the two notable examples are when I get jammed on a body serve, or if my opponent hits a backhand slice that is breaking hard into my body and I want to really get around on it and pull it hard crosscourt, as opposed to fighting it off and hitting it to his forehand.

Definately agreed though, when I lose focus I don't stay on the ball long enough, obviously the beginning and end of the video. I took a bunch of video of backhands yesterday, but this was the only one short enough for youtube. Havin a bit of trouble with Windows movie maker trimming them down to size, will install the camcorder software and use that.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
haha quick question, are you living well off?
that looks like a personal court and it looks very nice too haha
Nah, its my high school, (My old high school! Go class of 2000!), the court I was hitting on was pretty beat up, but they have 4 brand new perfect gritty hard courts behind those four. I just use the beat up ones because they are right next to the parking lot, so it is a shorter hike with my stuff.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Nice Strokes Jo11. What courts are those? Are they in Nassau County? I am from Suffolk county (Port Jeff/ Stony Brook) originally and they don't look too familiar to me, unless they are the courts in Massapequa ,Farmingdale, or I think suffolk community college. Good luck with your game and wrist.
What level player are you? Lets get together and hit I am in western suffolk.

J
 

Vims

New User
wow ur racket face on the take back is closed try and keep it open if you want to change it and make it better. All the best backhands double have open like safin, simon, grosjean and others
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
wow ur racket face on the take back is closed try and keep it open if you want to change it and make it better. All the best backhands double have open like safin, simon, grosjean and others
What would be better about it? Technically, what effect are you saying that keeping the face open on the take back would have? Why would it be more of an advantage to me in a ball striking match winning sense? What couldn't I do with the open takeback that I can with mine? Why would I have changed from that style when I was younger to my current one? And why would I use the style you see deeper in the court, and the one you describe when I am more inside the court.

I know the answers. Do you?

Different, yes, better, no.

J
 

Pet

Semi-Pro
And to play like this are 14 rackets needed? Ouchhh... I need 12 rackets more to be a pro like you.
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
No, not 2.5, lol. he's got a bad wrist in that video, plus he's a biggish guy, plus he was hitting some of those balls with a bit of vigorish, probably testing the wrist a bit.

Yes, he looks slightly off balance, but how important would that be under 7.0? No telling what level he played because we haven't seen the rest, but I'm guessing over 5.0. Many of these little supposed 'faults' only affect the look of the game. Distinguishing meaning functionality from lovely form is often hard to do. The video isn't the best either....Long ago I learned that looking perfect isn't what counts. I've been told I have beautiful, classical, long strokes, but I regularly get my butt handed to me by pushers, base line basher hackers, kids with no clue who can run all day, etc. So much for beauty.

-Robert
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Nice stroke Jolly, but watch that wrist. Even using a keyboard can slow recuperation depending on how injured you are. I know you're itching to get back, but.......

What H.S. is that btw? Is the backcourt bigger than standard or is it just the camera angle making it appear that way?
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Nice stroke Jolly, but watch that wrist. Even using a keyboard can slow recuperation depending on how injured you are. I know you're itching to get back, but.......

What H.S. is that btw? Is the backcourt bigger than standard or is it just the camera angle making it appear that way?
Nah, the backcourt is standard size, it is just the way I had the camera set up, I mean maybe a shade bigger than average, but not noticably to my naked eye.

It was my first time using the camcorder on court so I still have some work to do with positioning.

J
 
just change it, it looks crap ok? dont have a go at me when im trying to help you. you will get no power and you have to try harder to get ball deeper, opening the racket face is simplier thats what the backhand needs to be and thats what all the best backhanders have a simple open take back
Vims,

I feel that I have to say something. I have hit with J in person so I have a more first hand information about Jolly's game than what you can see in this brief video. J did not "have a go at you". Actually, he asked the proper question. If someone tells you to change your stroke you would ask these functional questions.

J gets plenty of power, he hits the ball hard, it has very heavy topspin, telling him to take his backhand back with an open face or a closed face is not going to change that. Your comment is in agreement with the general statement that a stroke should be kept as simple as possible. The less extraneous movements a swing has, the less that could go wrong. So, keeping the racket face still and not open it or close it makes it more likely that at impact, your racket face is perpdendicular, not open nor close, so that you can maximize the amount of topspin. However, Jolly's take back is very simple, it is a natural movement for him that his racket face is closed, and he gets plenty of topspin which means that he has the correct racket head speed and at contact the racket face is properly position to catch the ball. Not much could go wrong with it.

The real test of anyone's stroke is how it fares under pressure. When I hit a cross court low skidding slice that lands between half way between the deep backhand corner and the service box corner, J can hit it hard sharp cross court topspin with lots of kick, to the opposite service box corner. That is a very tough tough shot to make but he can do it. I have told Jolly in person, that he is one of a few people that can do that consistenly.

For the record, my take back on both side is neutral. I do try to keep it simple so I'm not disagreeing with you as a general principle but I want to note that the possessor of one of the most lethal forehand in tennis, has a closed racket face at the beginning of his forward swing, AND a loop, so would you tell Roger Federer that he should have a straight take back with an open face? And before you say that the forehand and backhand is different, Jolly's is a two handed backhand that has more left hand emphasis, so he's hitting half a left handed forehand. So, if the rest of the tennis world is willing to let Federer hit his forehad with a closed racket face take back, could you let Jolly hit is two handed backhand with a closed face take back? Or, are you going to tell King Fed that his forehand is defective, that Fed's forehand lacks power, lands short, and that he is expending too much energy hitting it?

P.S., if you are thinking that a backhand should be hit with an open face, then you sound like a beginning player who is pushing the ball back, with low racket head speed so the open face helps the ball land deeper. This is not the type of backhand that Jolly is hitting.
 
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Sakumo

Semi-Pro
To speak truth, I don't think you stroke here looks the best (But way better then most on these boards) But for sure it gets the job done so changing anything isn't a good idea, But your strokes are so flat (looking...youtube sucks quality) maybe talk to your coach about getting more spin on the ball? (again only from sucky quality. But nice strokes keep it up.

Edit: maybe a little more lean in with your torso?
 
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OrangeOne

Legend
To speak truth, I don't think you stroke here looks the best (But way better then most on these boards) But for sure it gets the job done so changing anything isn't a good idea, But your strokes are so flat (looking...youtube sucks quality) maybe talk to your coach about getting more spin on the ball? (again only from sucky quality. But nice strokes keep it up.
His strokes (even with a sprained wrist) are HARD, and therefore have an appropriate amount of topspin, no more or less. If you're hitting as hard as you plan to (or can reliably), and your shots are landing in, with sufficient net clearance, there's simply no need for more topspin! My opinion: shots at that pace, depth and spin level would be difficult for 95% (probably 99%) of posters on these boards to rally against. (I include myself there - I think my FH could cope for a while maybe, my BH would really struggle).

And... based on a bunch of other previous posts (not yours Sakumo) if it wasn't clear enough that I never wanted to post a video of me playing on here, it now is. We get TonLars posting strokes of a similar level (a card-carrying 5.5) and he gets questioned, we get JR posting BHs and he gets bashed, honestly....so many armchair critics.

Another thought for everyone:

JR has used a low, long angle and no hitting partner, meaning it's very hard to judge how fast and hard those shots really are. If there was someone hitting them back to him, they'd seem so much faster. If the angle of the camera was a little less 'long', you'd realise the true pace on the ball.
 

VolklVenom

Semi-Pro
One thing that I noticed about your strokes is that you setup and execute with a "D" loop, instead of a more traditional "C" loop.
It's as if you get half way through your stroke, then pause before hitting out. In my experience, this can lead to technical failure under extreme pressure situations.
I'd love to see a sound technique like yours as "one" continuous motion.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
But your strokes are so flat
Did you watch the video? The majority of the balls are clearing the net by six feet+. And if I had to guess, I would put average speed around 75-80+mph. Obviously how asthetically pleasing a stroke is is personal opinion, and frankly all I care about is it being effective and technically sound. They hand out trophys for winning rounds last I checked.

But my strokes are most assuredly NOT flat. I hit heavier topspin than just about anyone on the planet.

J
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
One thing that I noticed about your strokes is that you setup and execute with a "D" loop, instead of a more traditional "C" loop.
It's as if you get half way through your stroke, then pause before hitting out. In my experience, this can lead to technical failure under extreme pressure situations.
I'd love to see a sound technique like yours as "one" continuous motion.
Yea, I was having trouble timing the ball machine. It is wierd to hit against, because the spin on the ball is like fake. Hence the slight pause at the bottom of the loop. When I see the ball come off a racquet it is much easier for me to time.

J
 
I am going to start a video stroke inventory. In this thread I will post videos of my strokes, hitting sessions and match play.

I intend to continue to update this as I go on, and continue adding different videos.

Have not played in two weeks, due to my sprained wrist, and decided to fool around with my ball machine, and video camera.

All I could do was hit backhands, so here they are. My first entry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3n1X6oKH_s

Backhands 6/23/2007


J
Nice. Real nice. ;)

But I can't help myself from saying, "WATCH OUT FOR THOSE BALLS BEHIND YOU ON THE COURT!!!". I've witnessed too many careers prematurely ended by stepping on a ball!

Best,

CC
 

snoopy

Professional
J011y

please ignore those who have nothing constructive to say and post just to be jerks. I'd hate to see this thread loose its focus and degrade into nothing but name calling, it happens too often. Tennis is hard and I'd like to get better at it, posters like yourself are very helpful. It's nice to have high level players provide advice and video. I know and you know that you don't have to defend yourself to those that unfairly criticize. Don't waste your energy or encourage them.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Where's the broom at?
Put the broom on the shelf for the time being. Have not been too happy with my playing with a real racquet so it is silly to be fooling around with stuff like that. I guarantee you have not seen the last of the mighty broom.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
J011y

please ignore those who have nothing constructive to say and post just to be jerks. I'd hate to see this thread loose its focus and degrade into nothing but name calling, it happens too often. Tennis is hard and I'd like to get better at it, posters like yourself are very helpful. It's nice to have high level players provide advice and video. I know and you know that you don't have to defend yourself to those that unfairly criticize. Don't waste your energy or encourage them.
Ya, I know exactly how good/bad I am. And I know why others post what they do. If you notice, I don't reply to any of the childish/immature postings.

I thought it would be a cool idea to do a stroke inventory, just so people could see who they are talking to, and what I am talking about.

Make no mistake, I do the video to help myself get better, but if I can help someone else out at the same time by posting, they why not?

J
 

pro_staff

Semi-Pro
And if I had to guess, I would put average speed around 75-80+mph.

J
Are you sure those are 75-80? I realize it's hard to judge speed through a camera. If your intentions to help others are genuine (and if you have access to a speed meter), could you post a video of another round of backhands with the speed measured? And throw in the forehands too if you can :)
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Are you sure those are 75-80? I realize it's hard to judge speed through a camera. If your intentions to help others are genuine (and if you have access to a speed meter), could you post a video of another round of backhands with the speed measured? And throw in the forehands too if you can :)
Can't do forehands yet, but I will try the radar out. I will just have to figure out a way so that the feed ball doesn't interfere with the hit ball.

J
 

bertrevert

Hall of Fame
V solid. Liked the boxing type of jousting footwork. Jeez you hit the ball so far out in front on your bh. Wish i could do that instead of being continually cramped and caught. You point the tip of your racquet at the incoming ball. Searching for it. I am unsure if this would cause delay in a high-powered rally. I've read somewhere that this might be a good habit. Great net clearance on a high bouncing ball but you're not hitting with much arc. Still, flat hitting is powerful. Not critique, just envy!
 
I can't stay on the couch any longer going to lose what is left of my mind. Backhands don't hurt, I just don't have the strength to hit forehands. Or slice backhands for that matter.

J
lookin' good! thanks for sharing.

I know how you feel. my wrist is getting better too. Forehands are still rusty for me but my backhand is still great, and I hit 1HBH. It's only a small part of the "pinky" side of my wrist that hurts and only really hurts when I hit a forehand off center.

Hope yours heals soon! I'm visiting the orthoped doc thursday after next. we'll find out how much is wrong. Hopefully just a two week rest after an injection. It will suck but i'll try to think of the long term healing so I can play play play!
 

Sakumo

Semi-Pro
Did you watch the video? The majority of the balls are clearing the net by six feet+. And if I had to guess, I would put average speed around 75-80+mph. Obviously how asthetically pleasing a stroke is is personal opinion, and frankly all I care about is it being effective and technically sound. They hand out trophys for winning rounds last I checked.

But my strokes are most assuredly NOT flat. I hit heavier topspin than just about anyone on the planet.

J
Yep, and like I said, it is hard to see as the quality sucks ass. So I apologize. And I can tell you as a Challenger player that your strokes are not completely sound and will get you in to trouble in huge pressure situations. When you are pressured, the tiny ticks that aren't smooth in your strokes will increase and will get your timing off, and if you have read mental tennis or such you would know that the smallest amount of movement incorrectly can be the result of a winner or just out. I am not trying to tell you how to play your game. I am just telling you what I have experienced in the past, and how I have become a better player. So don't think I am bashing or anything, just trying to help.
 

Voltron

Hall of Fame
Ya, I know exactly how good/bad I am. And I know why others post what they do. If you notice, I don't reply to any of the childish/immature postings.

I thought it would be a cool idea to do a stroke inventory, just so people could see who they are talking to, and what I am talking about.

Make no mistake, I do the video to help myself get better, but if I can help someone else out at the same time by posting, they why not?

J
So how are you doing in opens? BTW, how high are you ranked? :)
 
X2!!!! such is life on a forum, you try to share, be a part of community and someone just has to swat you down to feel their dominance.

Thanks again for sharing JR!

MANY technical faults? There are MANY technical faults in everyone's game, but hey, results are what count. Also, to be fair, criticism is normally something is requested, ie. please criticise and help me with my strokes. JR seems to have mostly wanted to share his strokes, and good luck to him for doing it.



How you would know that there's many at your club that hit better than JR is interesting, given that so far, we've only seen his BH when recovering from a sprained wrist?



Come on - that's an undeserved low-blow. From all reports, JR plays tournaments regularly (he often posts about his results), why take the silly swipe at him for posting some shots against a ball machine?

Seems you're just trying to stir stuff up?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
It's all fine and dandy to post videos of yourself for open criticism or even to just show us what your style of play is but save us the crap about "even the one I shanked went in," and "I have access to the best coaching in the world." Who wants to hear that? Snoopy, did you even read what I was responding to? And be honest, tell me if you think that doesn't sound a little bit braggish. The fact is, it's not neccessary and if you are that comfortable with how good you are, what's wrong with criticism even if it is from someone who might not be as well versed in tennis as you? You don't have to take the criticism. Nobody is putting that pressure on you. Also, when you reply to some criticism like, "I know the answer, do you?" How else are we supposed to take it other than saying "this is just another know-it-all slamming every little bit of criticism he is receiving because he can't take it?"

I would be more than happy to post an unedited video of me hitting if I had the capabilities right now so you guys could come on and thrash me, praise my strokes, criticize, etc. I have no problem with that. It's just all the extra crap that came along with it, Jolly.
Audia, when someone gives a legitimate thing, like when NLBwell said that I bailed a little on the stroke with my head, which I know is something I do from time to time, then I acknowledge that, and say I am working on it. But when someone tells me to change something about my stroke, and gives no reason. The first thing I do, is ask why. Just like I would if someone told me to hit one of my strokes with a different grip.

Lots of people in this world are quick to give advise, and they have absolutely no idea of the technical reasoning or results of it. Many people parrot things they hear or see on the internet, or things they hear other pros telling people to do. Parroting information is bad because sometimes it is taken out of context, lost in translation, or the original source was just plain wrong. Example, there is almost nothing you can do wrong in tennis that some guy walking by won't tell you to bend your knees. Except hit a serve into the net, then they tell you to toss higher. You could toss the ball 30 feet in the air, and if you hit it into the net, some dude walking by will tell you to toss the ball higher. I ask them the same thing. "Why? What effect would tossing the ball higher have on my serve?".

When Vims said I take my racquet back with a closed face, and I should change it, I asked why. I wanted to see if he knew the differences between strokes with open and closed takebacks, and saw something that could actually help me. I was fairly confident that he didn't, because of the lack of accompanying information. When he replied "just change it, it looks crap ok?" I felt quite justified in my reply.

Look around at some of my other posts, and try to find one where I say I am a good player. Or one where I insult someone else's game.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
So how are you doing in opens? BTW, how high are you ranked? :)
The highest I was ranked was 8, the lowest around 20, for the mostpart I have been hovering on the outskirts of the top 10, and my goal was to finish inside the top 10 at years end, and decent nationally aswell.

I missed three tournaments because of my wrist, and no doubt my ranking has plummeted as a result. Had to withdraw from one where I was the #1 seed right when I hurt it, and missed two others, will probably miss one or two more by the time I am up to speed, so this is a pretty big blow in the middle of tournament season.

I am such a streaky player that I need to play a lot, so on a good week I can do some damage, and if I get smoked in the first round on a bad week it isn't such a big deal.

J
 

Voltron

Hall of Fame
The highest I was ranked was 8, the lowest around 20, for the mostpart I have been hovering on the outskirts of the top 10, and my goal was to finish inside the top 10 at years end, and decent nationally aswell.

I missed three tournaments because of my wrist, and no doubt my ranking has plummeted as a result. Had to withdraw from one where I was the #1 seed right when I hurt it, and missed two others, will probably miss one or two more by the time I am up to speed, so this is a pretty big blow in the middle of tournament season.

I am such a streaky player that I need to play a lot, so on a good week I can do some damage, and if I get smoked in the first round on a bad week it isn't such a big deal.

J
Woah, are we talking nationally? :shock: You're.....really.....good.......:shock: ;)

Streaky? Sounds like me. :p
 

warneck

Rookie
Please, only post other strokes when you are fully fit, seems pointless to show us your strokes when you are not fully fit, thanks!
Noone is forcing you too watch. Geez, is someone angry today, yesterday AND the day before that?

I think it's nice to see his BH, altho his wrist may be sprained, I don't really care if he is hitting the ball at 75mph or 90mph. More important is that he shares with the TW-community and tries to be a part of it. It altho seems that this forum is filled with people jalous of others, jalous of those that strike the ball better than a newborn.

I find that rather many is obsessed with the pace of a ball, rather than the technique. I mean, do you think that pace alone wins the match? It's more like depth/placement, spin (vary?), situation, mental game etc.. I can continue all day long!
 

Sakumo

Semi-Pro
Woah, are we talking nationally? :shock: You're.....really.....good.......:shock: ;)

Streaky? Sounds like me. :p
He's talking in his section. If he was that high nationally, he would be playing Challenger and trying to go pro. But I could be wrong, Some people make livings off playing Opens.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Woah, are we talking nationally? :shock: You're.....really.....good.......:shock: ;)

Streaky? Sounds like me. :p
No, I want to finish top 10 in my section. Would be thrilled to be top 50 nationally. And no, I am not that good, I just play lots of tournaments, and am streaky, so on a good week I can do some damage.

J
 

Voltron

Hall of Fame
No, I want to finish top 10 in my section. Would be thrilled to be top 50 nationally. And no, I am not that good, I just play lots of tournaments, and am streaky, so on a good week I can do some damage.

J
Ahhhh, now I get it, you're still good though. :)
 

Sakumo

Semi-Pro
No, I want to finish top 10 in my section. Would be thrilled to be top 50 nationally. And no, I am not that good, I just play lots of tournaments, and am streaky, so on a good week I can do some damage.

J
Yeah, you should be extremely streaky with the type of stokes you have. The room for error you have is so low with how hard you hit. Do you try to set up the point before even trying to hit hard in any shape or form, or do you just blast at it until the other player misses. Also back to my last post, with the ticks in your strokes when you are having a bad day and you are getting pissed off, the small notches will increase and your stokes will be off again and that will just **** you off more
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, you should be extremely streaky with the type of stokes you have. The room for error you have is so low with how hard you hit. Do you try to set up the point before even trying to hit hard in any shape or form, or do you just blast at it until the other player misses. Also back to my last post, with the ticks in your strokes when you are having a bad day and you are getting pissed off, the small notches will increase and your stokes will be off again and that will just **** you off more
Wonderboy,

Our masked K90 swinging 125mph serving challenger playing 16 year old.

A little info.

There are no american 16 year olds in the ATP top 1000.

The average main draw cutoff for a challenger in the US is usually under ATP 300. So you don't play Challengers.

The very best 16 year olds in the country, guys like Domijan, and Harrison struggle in qualies for Futures. So you don't play Futures all the time either.

There are 4 american juniors in ITF Junior Top 30 9 in the top 100. None of them live in the middle of the usa, none of them play Wilson. So, sorry, gonna have to call B.S. on that one too.

Oh, yea, and I do play with strategy, and not just blast the ball until the other guy misses.

Hugs and Kisses

J
 
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