Jannik Sinner 2024 vs. Novak Djokovic 2011 on HC: has the Sinner already surpassed Djokovic peak on HC?

Novak 2023 cancels everything you try to show.

If Sinner2024 was in the top 5 in 2011, then Novak2023 would be in the top 3 players in 2011 at least (beat stronger opponents and has versatility on all 3 surfaces), which automatically means that 36-year-old Novak would beat 29-year-old Federer and 23-year-old Murray in most duels ( and he would probably take some win against Novak and Nadal)

Does anyone believe in that... well no.

Does anyone believe that Sinner would be in the top 5...well no.
What does all this have to do with it?

Apart from the fact that Sinner 2024 scored more points than Djokovic 2023, then you will tell me that the reason is due to the fact that Djokovic 2023 due to age had to manage himself more during the season by selecting events.
True, but this is part of the game, if Djokovic 2023 hadn't managed his season in a painstaking way maybe he wouldn't have won everything he actually won.

So, in summary, Sinner 2024>Djokovic 2023 if we evaluate the comparison in the economy of the points obtained in the ranking.

Having said that, how can you rule out that the 2023 Djokovic couldn't have done better than the 2011 Federer and the 2011 Murray?
Do you base everything exclusively on chronological age?
If this is the case, then it is yet another way of evaluating things superficially.

However, even if you want to meet your thesis which is leaking everywhere, it's a shame that in the top 5 you fail to consider that Ferrer was also present in 2011, that is, a tennis player who could only approach the level of the current Sinner in his wildest dreams.

However, if you think that in the top 5 of 2011 one of Djokovic, Nadal, Federer and Murray had doubled to also occupy the fifth position, then I tell you that you are absolutely right.
So much bul**hit more, bul**hit less, what changes?
 
Fair point. I know this isn't Sinner's fault but I can't help but compare the competition.

For Sinner to win his WTF this year he had to beat
De Minaur
Fritz x 2
Medvedev
Ruud

For Djokovic to win his WTF he had to beat
Nishikori
Berdych
Nadal
Federer x2 (one of which he lost in the RR but beat him in the Final)

Djoko having to beat Nadal and Fed at the same WTF while Sinner's best opponent was Medvedev has me going EHH. Again not his fault but I can't declare that dominant in history compared to Novak's year.
A useful comparison.
 
Oh I believe it, you are comparing two tennis legends who have already concluded their careers, with one (Zverev) being about halfway through his career, and the other (Alcaraz) practically at the beginning.
In the series, you like to win easily.

Who knows what evaluation we will have of Alcaraz especially when his career ends, therefore analyzing his status retroactively.

The reality of the facts is that in Fedal 2011 only Nadal could still be considered at his peak, while Federer had already surpassed him for a few seasons.

If we wanted to base ourselves only on status without contextualizing anything, then Djokovic 2024>Fedal 2011 given that he alone boasts (24) more slams than Fedal had (23) at the beginning of 2011.

When I hear that in 2010 there were Federer, Djokovic and Murray opposing Nadal, what Federer, Djokovic and Murray were there in 2010, in the sense of at what stage of their career were they?

It is too easy to simplify reality by retroactively leveraging the status of the players involved that we are evaluating today, when at the same time Medvedev and Djokovic 2024 are rightly alluded to their decline.
Even the 2011 Federer was not at all comparable to the 2004-2009 one, just as the 2011 Murray was not comparable to the Murray seen later.
But as usual we only contextualize what is convenient to contextualize to support a thesis.
It is not enough to simply say that the competition that the 2011 Djokovic had was indisputably superior to that of the 2024 Sinner, it is not even necessary to emphasize everything with theories that are bizarre to say the least.

What they will do from now on is irrelevant.

I can say without a slight doubt that 2011 Nadal and Federer were significantly better than 2024 Alcaraz and Zverev.
 
Why did Djokovic, the greatest hard court player of all time, only beat Federer once on fast hard courts in 2015? Is he stupid?
 
What they will do from now on is irrelevant.

I can say without a slight doubt that 2011 Nadal and Federer were significantly better than 2024 Alcaraz and Zverev.
And no one doubts it.
What I dispute is that when referring to the various oppositions we must contextualize everything.
Fedal 2011 was superior to Alcaraz-Zverev 2024, but at the same time that Fedal 2011 was not the best Fedal seen in a single season.
In essence, it is not enough to rely on the names of the players but it is necessary to analyze the actual value at that specific moment when making this type of comparison, otherwise I repeat like the opposition of Djokovic 2024 there is no one in history.

As Fedal 2011 represents a superior opposition to any pair of rivals of Sinner 2024 we wanted to take into consideration, the same, inherent to the discussion of the top 5, can be said for Sinner 2024 as opposed to Ferrer 2011, they are not even part of the same category for establish a credible comparison.
Then I too can say that De Minaur 2024 is superior to Nadal 2011, what does it cost me to say that?
Much more complicated, however, when you have to be able to justify such an opinion.
 
And no one doubts it.
What I dispute is that when referring to the various oppositions we must contextualize everything.
Fedal 2011 was superior to Alcaraz-Zverev 2024, but at the same time that Fedal 2011 was not the best Fedal seen in a single season.
In essence, it is not enough to rely on the names of the players but it is necessary to analyze the actual value at that specific moment when making this type of comparison, otherwise I repeat like the opposition of Djokovic 2024 there is no one in history.

As Fedal 2011 represents a superior opposition to any pair of rivals of Sinner 2024 we wanted to take into consideration, the same, inherent to the discussion of the top 5, can be said for Sinner 2024 as opposed to Ferrer 2011, they are not even part of the same category for establish a credible comparison.
Then I too can say that De Minaur 2024 is superior to Nadal 2011, what does it cost me to say that?
Much more complicated, however, when you have to be able to justify such an opinion.
While i would probably agree that Sinner makes the top 5 in 2011 the post is about the comparison with Djokovic and i think we can agree that is a fairly ridiculous one.
 
However, just the fact that this 2024 can be statistically compared to some of the best seasons of a profile like Djokovic already gives an idea of the magnificence of Sinner's season.

Living in Italy, I have a preferential lane compared to the vast majority of forum users, which gives me access to news and rumors about Sinner that are unknown abroad, and it is for this reason that I am firmly convinced that Sinner 2025 will be the further evolution of Sinner 2024.
For example, today's news is that in this off-season he will not allow himself the slightest holiday, the only exception he will allow himself will be to go skiing as per tradition on Christmas Day, a holiday which here too, as per tradition, he will want to pass together with his family in his land.
In recent days he has obviously disconnected but not completely, then around December 9th the intense preparation in Dubai will begin.
All aimed at the Australian Open.

Then we will arrive at a crossroads due to the Cas ruling, where obviously the only possible scenarios are that of a disqualification to be served, or the Cas itself will clear him of all the accusations by confirming the first degree ruling of the independent tribunal.
Here, if he were acquitted, it would be the first time since the notification of the positive tests received last April between Miami and Monte Carlo, in which he will finally be able to play with a clear head, and it will be painful for everyone.
Yet another boost needed to start laying down the law on natural surfaces too.
After all, he has been saying for some time that he continues to consider adapting his game, especially on clay, a challenge.
He is a perfectionist who never sits on his laurels, this is his main virtue.
The compulsive obsession aimed at one's profession that has belonged to many sporting legends.
He lives 24 hours a day, 365 days a year thinking about tennis.
Machine clearly programmed to dominate the sport.
 
While i would probably agree that Sinner makes the top 5 in 2011 the post is about the comparison with Djokovic and i think we can agree that is a fairly ridiculous one.
Absolutely not.
Why ridiculous, just because Djokovic 2011 had a superior type of opposition than Sinner 2024?

Sinner didn't have the same opposition as Djokovic 2011, but the one he had outside Alcaraz literally blew him away on hard surfaces (which is the topic of the thread).

He has won 29 of the last 30 matches played, he is on a streak of 26 sets won consecutively, where in this streak he has faced 8 top 10 players of the 12 consecutive matches in which he has not lost sets.
At the US Open he won with ridiculous ease, almost as if he had activated autopilot.
In the first part of the season he put together a winning streak of 16 matches, the youngest ever to start the season without defeats in the first 16 matches played.
And shortly after that streak was interrupted he went on to win the Miami Masters 1000, leaving only 7 games to his opponents between the semi-final and final, something that in a Masters 1000, to find better you have to go to the Claydal version of Monte Carlo 2010.
And in all the matches played in 2024 he has always ended up in the worst case scenario playing the decisive set.

It cannot be done more than wiping out competition that is not irresistible and not comparable to that of Djokovic 2011, or does anyone think that Djokovic 2011 teleported to 2024 would win all the matches leaving his opponents scoreless in each one?

The 2024 Sinner is not as good as the 2011 Djokovic but it is very close to it, the problem is that we have already seen the best Djokovic and know what he is, while the best Sinner is absolutely not guaranteed to remain this one from the 2024 version, indeed, not I would swear.
 
He couldn’t even beat 2023 djokovic or Carlos this year. . let’s be reasonable. He probably wouldn’t win a set anywhere’s against djokovic. Djoker would probably 20-25?straight sets on the guy if they played on all surfaces for the year. I’m not even sure he would nab more than a set against Nadal in 2011. Probably wouldn’t beat 2011 Fed at all either.

Sinner had a great season but far from Big 3 quality level wise. He couldn’t handle feds variety or Djoker and nadals constricting consistent punishment from the baseline
 
Absolutely not.
Why ridiculous, just because Djokovic 2011 had a superior type of opposition than Sinner 2024?

Sinner didn't have the same opposition as Djokovic 2011, but the one he had outside Alcaraz literally blew him away on hard surfaces (which is the topic of the thread).

He has won 29 of the last 30 matches played, he is on a streak of 26 sets won consecutively, where in this streak he has faced 8 top 10 players of the 12 consecutive matches in which he has not lost sets.
At the US Open he won with ridiculous ease, almost as if he had activated autopilot.
In the first part of the season he put together a winning streak of 16 matches, the youngest ever to start the season without defeats in the first 16 matches played.
And shortly after that streak was interrupted he went on to win the Miami Masters 1000, leaving only 7 games to his opponents between the semi-final and final, something that in a Masters 1000, to find better you have to go to the Claydal version of Monte Carlo 2010.
And in all the matches played in 2024 he has always ended up in the worst case scenario playing the decisive set.

It cannot be done more than wiping out competition that is not irresistible and not comparable to that of Djokovic 2011, or does anyone think that Djokovic 2011 teleported to 2024 would win all the matches leaving his opponents scoreless in each one?

The 2024 Sinner is not as good as the 2011 Djokovic but it is very close to it, the problem is that we have already seen the best Djokovic and know what he is, while the best Sinner is absolutely not guaranteed to remain this one from the 2024 version, indeed, not I would swear.
But Sinner wasn't quite unbeatable as you are making him seem even on hard courts.

At the Australian Open he was getting outplayed by Medvedev before his legs completely left him. Medvedev in Australia was clueless against old Djokovic by the way.

Then he lost in Indian Wells, and lost at Cincinnati. The Us Open was fairly impressive from him but his best opponent by form was Taylor Fritz.

Then he lost at Beijing from not a really hc specialist.

Obviously if we add clay and grass to the equation the comparison becomes laughable.

Can you really see 2011 Djokovic struggling with Medvedev in Australia where he straight setted Federer? Or losing to to Alcaraz multiple times on hard courts? Hell even 2023 Djokovic was easily outplaying them both for the most part.
 
But Sinner wasn't quite unbeatable as you are making him seem even on hard courts.

At the Australian Open he was getting outplayed by Medvedev before his legs completely left him. Medvedev in Australia was clueless against old Djokovic by the way.

Then he lost in Indian Wells, and lost at Cincinnati. The Us Open was fairly impressive from him but his best opponent by form was Taylor Fritz.

Then he lost at Beijing from not a really hc specialist.

Obviously if we add clay and grass to the equation the comparison becomes laughable.

Can you really see 2011 Djokovic struggling with Medvedev in Australia where he straight setted Federer? Or losing to to Alcaraz multiple times on hard courts? Hell even 2023 Djokovic was easily outplaying them both for the most part.
Sinner won Cincinnati.

I don't understand what you want to prove with Sinner's match against Medvedev at the Australian Open.
Sinner won that match.
Did Medvedev start to decline after the second set?
This is also part of the game, that is to avoid wasting precious energy in the previous rounds, Sinner arrived at the final match fresher, leaving only one set in the previous 6 matches, isn't that a merit?
But if we want to allude to Medvedev's tiredness, we can also say that in the first 2 sets Sinner paid the price of the first slam final of his career, moreover the first slam final of his career in which he arrived with the extra pressure of the favourite.
But then did you see the level of play Medvedev had in those first 2 sets?
He served an incredible percentage of firsts, he even showed some unusual net plays for someone like him.
How we can take Medvedev from the Australian Open final as a pretext, playing the first two sets in a shocking way, and compare him with other past versions of him, even net of Sinner's demerits, remains a mystery.

Overall I don't understand why you only focus on Sinner's few setbacks while ignoring all the monstrous things I listed before.
So I was right in saying that to be compared to Djokovic 2011 one expects him to win all the matches without leaving a single game to his opponents.

He lost to Alcaraz and you talk about it as if he lost to any average player.
Isn't Alcaraz as competitive on hard as on other surfaces?
True, but it's a shame that Indian Wells is the slowest hard surface on the circuit, where Alcaraz has always shown he can enhance his game, and in that context Sinner was the only one to question the final outcome.
Same thing happened in Beijing, all balanced matches decided by details.

Then you tell me that Medvedev and Alcaraz were opponents that Djokovic 2023 tamed on hard.
The 2023 Djokovic is the same one who on hard surfaces ended the season 1-2 down in direct clashes with Sinner 2023 (Sinner 2024>Sinner 2023), so?
But then the defeats against Alcaraz were ok, but against Medvedev you concentrated on the only match really in question (Australian Open final) ignoring that Sinner beat Medvedev 5 times out of 5 this year on hard surfaces, and 8 of the last 8 matches always on hard surfaces, adding, as mentioned before, a streak of 13 sets won out of the last 14 played between them.
Doesn't that seem like a show of strength to you?

Why don't you mention the two match points saved by Djokovic in the semi-final of the US Open against a post-prime Federer?
Or Djokovic's 2011 post-US Open roadmap, should I mention you against those who lost post-US Open? were they better than Alcaraz?
In case you'll tell me that all those post-US Open defeats occurred after his physical problems that affected the rest of the season, but because the hip problem and the burden of the case of the two positivities don't provide an alibi to justify some jokes of Sinner's arrest between the clay and grass seasons?

If, to substantiate a theory, that of Djokovic 2011 being better than Sinner 2024, which no one disputes, you focus only on the negative aspects of Sinner's 2024 season, and only on the positive aspects of Djokovic's 2011 season, just to get if you call the comparison ridiculous, then anything goes.
 
However, just the fact that this 2024 can be statistically compared to some of the best seasons of a profile like Djokovic already gives an idea of the magnificence of Sinner's season.

Living in Italy, I have a preferential lane compared to the vast majority of forum users, which gives me access to news and rumors about Sinner that are unknown abroad, and it is for this reason that I am firmly convinced that Sinner 2025 will be the further evolution of Sinner 2024.
For example, today's news is that in this off-season he will not allow himself the slightest holiday, the only exception he will allow himself will be to go skiing as per tradition on Christmas Day, a holiday which here too, as per tradition, he will want to pass together with his family in his land.
In recent days he has obviously disconnected but not completely, then around December 9th the intense preparation in Dubai will begin.
All aimed at the Australian Open.
There is nothing glorious about defeating the fallen Medvedev, Novak's pigeons (Fritz, Rudd and De Minaur) and the 37-year-old Novak. He has 3 losses against the only real rival and 1 win against the only consistent player on the tour (Zverev). Novak's 2023 can be called magnificent because he dominated opponents who are 14-16 years younger than him.
I understand that you are Italian, but reduce the hype about Sinner a bit because all the major wins this season have eluded him
Next season, if he starts with victories against Alcaraz, then the hype will be founded, but at the moment, in my opinion, it is not. There is nothing magnificent in defeating people who have not won anything in life (except the fallen Medvedev)
 
No need. We have all the stats to see what competition means

Not just NAME but a number. Faceless, emotionless.

Take the emotion out before any argument.
 
Djokovic was 7-0 against Federer and Nadal on hardcourt in 2011. Do you honestly belive 2024 Sinner would do that? He was 0-2 against Alcaraz. I don't know what's up with this wanting to compare to one of the greatest seasons of all time but he ain't there yet.
Well, it's the "it's all about the numbers" drum that Djokovic fans have been beating for years. Chickens have come home to roost.

Is this the moment when Nole fans acknowledge that competition matters? :eek:
 
There is nothing glorious about defeating the fallen Medvedev, Novak's pigeons (Fritz, Rudd and De Minaur) and the 37-year-old Novak. He has 3 losses against the only real rival and 1 win against the only consistent player on the tour (Zverev). Novak's 2023 can be called magnificent because he dominated opponents who are 14-16 years younger than him.
I understand that you are Italian, but reduce the hype about Sinner a bit because all the major wins this season have eluded him
Next season, if he starts with victories against Alcaraz, then the hype will be founded, but at the moment, in my opinion, it is not. There is nothing magnificent in defeating people who have not won anything in life (except the fallen Medvedev)
The usual contradiction.
He is 0-3 against the one you define as the only true rival worthy of note, but that same only true rival in 2024 boasts defeats against players like Zverev (twice), Jarry, Dimitrov, Rublev, Draper, Djokovic, Monfils, VdZ, Machac, Humbert and Ruud.

Do you know what Sinner's seasonal record is against all those players who in 2024 defeated what you consider the only true rival worthy of note?

15-1.

Make peace with your brain every now and then, the fact of being Italian as well as his fan does not exclude that I can be much more objective on the subject than many of you, given that I shoot at "Sinner 2024 teleported to 2011 it would not even have entered the top 5" implying that it could be even inferior to a Ferrer, I don't do it.

And with this I close, as I also took too much time discussing theses that were bizarre to say the least.
I repeat, objective facts count, the subjectivity of an opinion is carried away by the wind.
 
No need. We have all the stats to see what competition means

Not just NAME but a number. Faceless, emotionless.

Take the emotion out before any argument.
Statistically impressive, but when you start digging a little deeper, you see that nothing is impressive.
He has no strong opposition in front of him except fallen Medvedev
 
Well, it's the "it's all about the numbers" drum that Djokovic fans have been beating for years. Chickens have come home to roost.

Is this the moment when Nole fans acknowledge that competition matters? :eek:
Yea competition always mattered which is why multiple ATGs said Djokovic's 2011 was the greatest season ever because of who he was beating and how he was beating them. Numbers always mattered as well which is why Sampras said he was the GOAT when they all had 20 Slams. Lol. Anything else to add?
 
Competition always matter. No one said it didn't. Maybe fedfans forgot what era their best was leading vs what era Djokovic started in.
 
Make peace with your brain every now and then, the fact of being Italian as well as his fan does not exclude that I can be much more objective on the subject than many of you, given that I shoot at "Sinner 2024 teleported to 2011 it would not even have entered the top 5" implying that it could be even inferior to a Ferrer, I don't do it.

And with this I close, as I also took too much time discussing theses that were bizarre to say the least.
I repeat, objective facts count, the subjectivity of an opinion is carried away by the wind.
Objective facts say that Novak's 2023 is stronger than Sinner's 2024, but that didn't stop you from comparing it to 2011.

And yes, the guy is 0:3 against the only rival that should matter. Let me know when he has a positive h2h against him in the big tournaments of the season. Until then, Sinner has nothing impressive
 
Well, it's the "it's all about the numbers" drum that Djokovic fans have been beating for years. Chickens have come home to roost.

Is this the moment when Nole fans acknowledge that competition matters? :eek:
Competition is always important, that's what Federer lacked in 2004-2006 off clay

And Sinner's fans are cheeky enough to compare Sinner's 2024 year (with a lot of hc trophies but no big wins against the main rival) with the ultimate 2011 season that was devoid of competition and big matches and wins.
 
Yea competition always mattered which is why multiple ATGs said Djokovic's 2011 was the greatest season ever because of who he was beating and how he was beating them. Numbers always mattered as well which is why Sampras said he was the GOAT when they all had 20 Slams. Lol. Anything else to add?
Oh, I'm with you on 2011 being spectacular. That 2011 US Open must have just gutted Fed. That said, I also think that tennis was on one long "hyper-inflation era" from the end of 2016 to the end of 2023, and we all know who the primary beneficiary of that was...
 
Oh, I'm with you on 2011 being spectacular. That 2011 US Open must have just gutted Fed. That said, I also think that tennis was on one long "hyper-inflation era" from the end of 2016 to the end of 2023, and we all know who the primary beneficiary of that was...
Why would the hyper inflation era end at the end of 2023, if it existed? Especially considering Djokovic, Medvedev, Rune, Hurkacz and Tsitsipas were all worse this year than last year? The inflation era only seems to exist when the wrong guy is winning.
 
Why would the hyper inflation era end at the end of 2023, if it existed? Especially considering Djokovic, Medvedev, Rune, Hurkacz and Tsitsipas were all worse this year than last year? The inflation era only seems to exist when the wrong guy is winning.
Just seems wrong to kick the guy when he's down.
 
Djokovic was winning against Federer Nadal and Murray in 2011. 2 of them were in their prime, the 3rd one (Federer) wasn't too far from his prime either.
Sinner's main opponents lately are Fritz, DeMinaur and a depressed Medvedev.
One of the main differences...
 
Crazy that in 2005, Federer was 50-1 in hard court matches. Only loss: Five setter to Safin at the AO where Federer held match point.

Will we ever see such hard court dominance again?
Not fair to compare Djokovic with 2005-2006 Federer imo. Federer at that time was an alien life form on hardcourt.

Same goes for Nadal in any of his jetboy peaks. The guy was covering the court like a blur and hitting with so much shape and spin that the ball flight looked like a cartoon.

It’s so fun to go back and watch Fedal play and remember just how insane the level was.
 
Just seems wrong to kick the guy when he's down.
I think Fed fans have been quite consistent with the inflation era, myself calling it since 2018 and talking about the weakness of the tour since mid 2016 when Murray vultured in Djokovic's absence. Nadal fans are the ones who try to have their cake and eat it too...
 
Remind me, again, who the hell did Sinner beat? He went 0-3, including 0-1 slams, against Carlos!

Who did Djokovic beat in '11 & '15? He went 9-1 and 8-3, including 7-1 slams, against Fedal!
 
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Why would the hyper inflation era end at the end of 2023, if it existed? Especially considering Djokovic, Medvedev, Rune, Hurkacz and Tsitsipas were all worse this year than last year? The inflation era only seems to exist when the wrong guy is winning.
Well, you can certainly say it is continuing. I mean, look at the competition for Alcaraz and Sinner. I'm fine with that.

Also, all of the big three benefited…
 
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Remind me, again, who the hell did Sinner beat? He went 0-3, including 0-1 slams, against Carlos!

Who did Djokovic beat in '11 & '15? He went 9-1 and 8-3, including 7-1 slams, against Fedal!
A 34-year-old Federer and a 2015 version of Nadal in the worst version of his career between 2005 and 2022.

So who beat Djokovic in 2015?
 
A 34-year-old Federer and a 2015 version of Nadal in the worst version of his career between 2005 and 2022.

So who beat Djokovic in 2015?
Nadal, Federer, Murray, Wawrinka, Cilic, Ferrer, Berdych, Nishikori.... 5 slam winners, 4 multiple slam winners, 7 masters champions, 3 champions with 10+ masters, 2 champions with 20+ masters
 
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Nadal, Federer, Murray, Wawrinka, Cilic, Ferrer, Berdych, Nishikori.... 5 slam winners, 4 multiple slam winners, 7 masters champions, 3 champions with 10+ masters, 2 champions with 20+ masters
Djokovic, Alcaraz, Zverev, Medvedev, together they make 29 slams, 10 ATP Finals, 58 masters 1000.

So?
 
Djokovic, Alcaraz, Zverev, Medvedev, together they make 29 slams, 10 ATP Finals, 58 masters 1000.

So?
Sinner has legit wins over medvedev and Djokovic on hc this year along with zverev in Cincinnati. Not too bad.

Medvedev was in finals of AO/IW and semis of Miami. He was very good at the start of the year.

Djokovic in Shanghai played very well.

As did Zverev in Cincinnati. When that Cincy match happened, I immediately thought about USO 2011 Nadal. Sinner was so good that day.

Naysayers can say what they want. They know when being dishonest works for them.
 
Djokovic, Alcaraz, Zverev, Medvedev, together they make 29 slams, 10 ATP Finals, 58 masters 1000.

So?
Throw out Novak, he is 14 years older and could be his biological father.

The team remains: Medvedev, Zverev, De Minaur, Fritz, Ruud... 1 slam champion, 0 multiple slam champions, 3 masters champions, 0 champions with 10+ masters...
 
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For my money, Federer is greater than Djokovic on all three surfaces.
Djokovic's longevity on clay is a fair bit better as is his resume. I do think the difference is "inflated" but I would give clay to Djokovic, though I think Fed's best was imposing even there 8-B
 
Throw out Novak, he is 14 years older and could be his biological father.

The team remains: Medvedev, Zverev, De Minaur, Fritz, Ruud... 1 slam champion, 0 multiple slam champions, 3 masters champions, 0 champions with 10+ masters...
A 34-year-old Federer and a 2015 version of Nadal in the worst version of his career between 2005 and 2022.

So who beat Djokovic in 2015?
 
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