Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Not on clay but sure… I’ll begrudgingly concede the other two
Jannik Sinner 2024 vs. Novak Djokovic 2011 on HC: has the Sinner already surpassed Djokovic peak on HC?
- Thread starter weakera
- Start date
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
You must be broke?
zakopinjo
Professional
Pure helplessness
Remind me who had a 3:1 score against Alcaraz last season and who had a 0:3 score against Alcaraz this season?
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
For me;
Hard;
Djokovic>Federer
Clay;
Djokovic>Federer
Grass;
Federer>Djokovic
However, distinctions should be made.
On old-fashioned grass surfaces where the ball struggled to bounce, Federer would have been indisputably superior to Djokovic.
On modern grass where the ball bounces more, which allows rallies to be prolonged, I think Djokovic is superior to Federer even if slightly, or better, if I had to bet money on who would win a hypothetical match between Djokovic 2011-16 and Federer 2004 -2009 on the modern grass of Wimbledon, I would sting Djokovic.
After all, Federer first lost the 2008 Wimbledon final to Nadal, and already in 2007 he struggled extremely against the Spaniard.
So let alone against the Djokovic prime version.
Reverse speech on clay.
Djokovic on clay boasts a palmares that is decidedly superior to that of Federer, but this is a bit doped by the fact that in his peak period Federer had to clash against the more cannibalistic version of the clay version of Nadal, the 2005-2008 one which left only crumbs to the competition.
So yes, on clay I choose Djokovic over Federer but even here the comparison is much more balanced than the different haul of big titles that the two boast in their careers on the surface suggests.
Hard;
Djokovic>Federer
Clay;
Djokovic>Federer
Grass;
Federer>Djokovic
However, distinctions should be made.
On old-fashioned grass surfaces where the ball struggled to bounce, Federer would have been indisputably superior to Djokovic.
On modern grass where the ball bounces more, which allows rallies to be prolonged, I think Djokovic is superior to Federer even if slightly, or better, if I had to bet money on who would win a hypothetical match between Djokovic 2011-16 and Federer 2004 -2009 on the modern grass of Wimbledon, I would sting Djokovic.
After all, Federer first lost the 2008 Wimbledon final to Nadal, and already in 2007 he struggled extremely against the Spaniard.
So let alone against the Djokovic prime version.
Reverse speech on clay.
Djokovic on clay boasts a palmares that is decidedly superior to that of Federer, but this is a bit doped by the fact that in his peak period Federer had to clash against the more cannibalistic version of the clay version of Nadal, the 2005-2008 one which left only crumbs to the competition.
So yes, on clay I choose Djokovic over Federer but even here the comparison is much more balanced than the different haul of big titles that the two boast in their careers on the surface suggests.
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic's longevity on clay is a fair bit better as is his resume. I do think the difference is "inflated" but I would give clay to Djokovic, though I think Fed's best was imposing even there
RG 11 gave Federer the permanent edge on clay.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Sinner 2023 vs Djokovic 2023 2-2Pure helplessness
Remind me who had a 3:1 score against Alcaraz last season and who had a 0:3 score against Alcaraz this season?
Sinner 2023 vs Alcaraz 2023 2-1
Or Sinner 2023-2024 vs Djokovic 2023-2024 4-2.
So?
A 34-year-old Federer and a 2015 version of Nadal in the worst version of his career between 2005 and 2022.
So who beat Djokovic in 2015?
zakopinjo
Professional
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
zakopinjo
Professional
RS
Bionic Poster
Argue the reverse
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Sinner who has 1.4 dominance ratio in 2024 would do nothing in 2011.
Keep believing that for now because you can.
When he dominates the tour for many years and some nostalgic members have become lunatic, pray you won't be part of that.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
What a huge gap between Nole and Fed on the main surface, both in performance and level of competition. 
When will people realize Fed only peaked in a vacuum? The T5/T10 weights during his peak years are by far the lowest among the Big4.
When will people realize Fed only peaked in a vacuum? The T5/T10 weights during his peak years are by far the lowest among the Big4.
HC | vs Top5 | T5 Weight | vs Top10 | T10 Weight | vs T11+ | T11+ Weight | vs All |
Nole | 135 (89-46) 65.93% | 16.11% | 259 (191-68) 73.75% | 30.91% | 579 (518-61) 89.46% | 69.09% | 838 (709-129) 84.61% |
Fed | 120 (75-45) 62.50% | 12.78% | 240 (162-78) 67.50% | 25.56% | 699 (621-78) 88.84% | 74.44% | 939 (783-156) 83.39% |
Rafa | 73 (30-43) 41.10% | 10.91% | 150 (75-75) 50.00% | 22.42% | 519 (443-76) 85.36% | 77.58% | 669 (518-151) 77.43% |
Murray | 92 (42-50) 45.65% | 13.53% | 148 (81-67) 54.73% | 21.76% | 532 (422-110) 79.32% | 78.24% | 680 (503-177) 73.97% |
| | | | | | | |
HC Peak | vs Top5 | T5 Weight | vs Top10 | T10 Weight | vs T11+ | T11+ Weight | vs All |
Nole 11-16 | 60 (46-14) 76.67% | 18.35% | 122 (103-19) 84.43% | 37.31% | 205 (192-13) 93.66% | 62.69% | 327 (295-32) 90.21% |
Fed 04-09 | 40 (28-12) 70.00% | 13.25% | 80 (61-19) 76.25% | 26.49% | 222 (208-14) 93.69% | 73.51% | 302 (269-33) 89.07% |
Rafa 08-13 | 36 (15-21) 41.67% | 13.69% | 76 (41-35) 53.95% | 28.90% | 187 (173-14) 92.51% | 71.10% | 263 (214-49) 81.37% |
Murray 11-16 | 45 (18-27) 40.00% | 15.85% | 72 (39-33) 54.17% | 25.35% | 212 (190-22) 89.62% | 74.65% | 284 (229-55) 80.63% |
| | | | | | | |
HC F+SF | vs Top5 | T5 Weight | vs Top10 | T10 Weight | vs T11+ | T11+ Weight | vs All |
Nole | 101 (70-31) 69.31% | 46.98% | 146 (108-38) 73.97% | 67.91% | 69 (56-13) 81.16% | 32.09% | 215 (164-51) 76.28% |
Fed | 81 (45-36) 55.56% | 38.03% | 117 (85-32) 72.65% | 54.93% | 96 (83-13) 86.46% | 45.07% | 213 (168-45) 78.87% |
Rafa | 50 (17-33) 34.00% | 37.04% | 74 (33-41) 44.59% | 54.81% | 61 (43-18) 70.49% | 45.19% | 135 (76-59) 56.30% |
Murray | 56 (29-27) 51.79% | 45.16% | 74 (44-30) 59.46% | 59.68% | 50 (42-8) 84.00% | 40.32% | 124 (86-38) 69.35% |
| | | | | | | |
Peak HC F+SF | vs Top5 | T5 Weight | vs Top10 | T10 Weight | vs T11+ | T11+ Weight | vs All |
Nole 11-16 | 49 (37-12) 75.51% | 50.52% | 78 (64-14) 82.05% | 80.41% | 19 (15-4) 78.95% | 19.59% | 97 (79-18) 81.44% |
Fed 04-09 | 29 (19-10) 65.52% | 33.72% | 49 (37-12) 75.51% | 56.98% | 37 (35-2) 94.59% | 43.02% | 86 (72-14) 83.72% |
Rafa 08-13 | 29 (11-18) 37.93% | 45.31% | 43 (20-23) 46.51% | 67.19% | 21 (13-8) 61.90% | 32.81% | 64 (33-31) 51.56% |
Murray 11-16 | 31 (15-16) 48.39% | 50.00% | 40 (24-16) 60.00% | 64.52% | 22 (19-3) 86.36% | 35.48% | 62 (43-19) 69.35% |
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Everyone realized that back in 2012 itself.What a huge gap between Nole and Fed on the main surface, both in performance and level of competition.
When will people realize Fed only peaked in a vacuum? The T5/T10 weights during his peak years are by far the lowest among the Big4.
They just don't want to admit it. Roger coasted until his mid 20s in weaker field. But then was given very tough task. Nole was thrown to wolves first.
Looking back at the top 5 match record on clay, Djokovic stands at 28-26. His first 10 matches he lost all, but those were to Mid 20s Fed and Rafa. All 10.
Roger first 10 matches, he won 5 or 6 but didn't matter when it came to RG.
So there are differences in how both came to the front.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Federer peaked higher everywhere, agreed upon by all objective tennis observers.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fed's streak was longer.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Top 10 dominance ratios in 2011 and 2024.
2011 doesn't mean everyone was having 4 hands or something.
Sinner DR is 1.41 compared to all players in those 2 years, its higher.
| Player | 2011 | 2024 |
| 1 | 1.38 | 1.41 |
| 2 | 1.28 | 1.27 |
| 3 | 1.24 | 1.30 |
| 4 | 1.38 | 1.18 |
| 5 | 1.23 | 1.10 |
| 6 | 1.13 | 1.12 |
| 7 | 1.22 | 1.28 |
| 8 | 1.19 | 1.16 |
| 9 | 1.20 | 1.18 |
| 10 | 1.10 | 1.21 |
| Avg | 1.235 | 1.221 |
2011 doesn't mean everyone was having 4 hands or something.
Sinner DR is 1.41 compared to all players in those 2 years, its higher.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Compared to real weak years.
| Player | 2011 | 2024 | 2004 |
| 1 | 1.38 | 1.41 | 1.38 |
| 2 | 1.28 | 1.27 | 1.32 |
| 3 | 1.38 | 1.30 | 1.22 |
| 4 | 1.24 | 1.18 | 1.15 |
| 5 | 1.23 | 1.10 | 1.04 |
| 6 | 1.13 | 1.12 | 1.08 |
| 7 | 1.22 | 1.28 | 1.14 |
| 8 | 1.19 | 1.16 | 1.19 |
| 9 | 1.20 | 1.18 | 1.15 |
| 10 | 1.10 | 1.21 | 1.13 |
| Avg | 1.235 | 1.221 | 1.18 |
Last edited:
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
This says Murray and Djokovic had the same dominance ratio in 2011 so it's not very useful since we know Murray wasn't close to him as a player that year.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
What's there to argue? It's done and dusted at this point, but if people want to keep yelling the sky isn't blue, go for it.Argue the reverse
Yes I know but the topic was 2005 and in that year, his win streak on hardcourt was 40.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
LOL that's where most of us are wrong.
Who was number 4 in 2011. It wasn't SABM but the great Roger Federer. The only guy who was close to him as a player.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Federer ended 2011 at #3.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Ok then let me shift the DR. The 1.38 is for Fed and 1.24 is for Andy which is how it should feel in 2011.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
It's still not that useful. Federer was 10-9 against the top 10 that year because of his 2-7 record against Djokovic and Nadal. Both were clearly superior. Dominance ratios for a year isn't telling us much.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
H2H is a dangerous game to play. While Fed is 2-7 down, he was the only guy who beat Djokovic at slam. Barely lost at second slam. At age 30, Fed shouldn't care about H2H but the most important events (4 slams, atp finals and then far later masters)
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
What the head to head says is that he wasn't as dominant as Djokovic which is why the points dominance ratio is misleading. He was 1-3 against Nadal, and took 2 losses in tournaments where Djokovic beat Nadal, and even had losses to Melzer and Gasquet. Points dominance is great to look at it but is not necessarily showing you who won the matches. Games dominance is more important because of that reason but even that doesn't tell the full story.
Last edited:
mightyjeditribble
Legend
On grass, it's definitely Fed for me.Not on clay but sure… I’ll begrudgingly concede the other two
On HC, for peak level I can't look past Roger either, but Novak is close. But for the career overall, you've got to go with Djokovic on HC.
On clay, I actually also think that Fed's peak level is close to Djokovic. After all, he beat him at RG in 2011, which was probably further from Roger's peak than from Novak's. But Djokovic's game was less vulnerable that Fed's on clay, particularly to Nadal.
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
No less ridiculous of an opinion than saying Fed is a greater HCerMany of them think Djokovic is a better grass courter than Federer, their opinions don't matter
NatF
Bionic Poster
We know that's not trueNo less ridiculous of an opinion than saying Fed is a greater HCer
Lauren_Girl'
Hall of Fame
Jannik Sinner 2024
Record: 54-3 (94.7%)
Grand Slams: 2
Titles: 7
ATP Finals: W
Losses with 0 sets won: 0
Novak Djokovic 2011
Record: 46-5 (90.1%)
Grand Slams: 2
Titles: 6
ATP Finals: RR
Losses with 0 sets won: 3
I would call this cherry-picking. 2011 is only Djokovic's 3rd best season on HC. Why compare Djokovic's 3rd best result to Sinner's best result? Weird.
But even if we compare 2011 and 2024, I'd give 2011 the edge.
Most of his losses (5) came at the very end of the season in 2011, when he was exhausted and carrying a shoulder injury. Withdrawals in Cincinnati and Davis Cup. He could hardly move against Nishikori in Basel and Ferrer in London. Those losses are pretty meaningless. Peak Djokovic in 2011 was superior.
Sinner lost his 2 matches against his main rival (Alcaraz) on HC. I don't recall Djokovic having a losing H2H against Nadal and Federer on HC in 2011.
Beating Federer and prime Nadal in USO 2011 in 2 epic matches surely trumps Sinner beating... Draper and Fritz. For that reason alone, Djokovic 2011 was better.
Beating Federer and Murray in Australia also overshadows Sinner beating these poor versions of Djokovic and Medvedev in 2024.
His Sunshine double (with 3 wins over Fedal) was another masterclass in 2011. In fact his first loss of the year was in the Cincinnati final in August, and it was a W.O. Sinner lost as early as IW in March.
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
It is pretty ironic to me how aggressively Fed fans **** on Djokovic fans for claiming universal superiority when you guys do the exact same thing except at probably a higher percentage of the fandomWe know that's not true
NatF
Bionic Poster
It's important to defend the truth lol.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
And when they don't have much to support it. Lol.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Higher peak
Shouldn't be controversial to say he's better in faster HC conditions and also at the USO. Where as there's no real debate for Djokovic to be better on grass unless you think Fed was peaking in his mid 30's. So even if I concede Djokovic is superior in slow conditions, Fed at least has a HC condition he's superior in that makes the aggregate a debate.
RS
Bionic Poster
Were is the gap wider for you USO or AO?Higher peak
NatF
Bionic Poster
The AO has changed a lot over the years. Probably a slightly wider gap at the USO because I think Fed in say 2007 is right there with the best of Djokovic, where as I think Federer in his best forms would win a clearer majority against say 2011 Djokovic at the USO.
Looking at the big HC events I'd probably go:
AO: Djok
IW: Fed
MI: Djok
CA: Djok
CI: Fed
SH/MA: Fed
PA: Djok
YEC: Fed
So 4/4 in top 8 events by my count. I think it's a reasonable discussion, far more so than grass which Djokovic fans are lying to themselves about if they think it's closer lol.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
There's only like an ATG career worth of difference at this point but Djokovic is inferior everywhere obviously. Most Fed fans won't even cede clay which is absolutely insane.
RS
Bionic Poster
So on your case you could probably say HC is equal. That's what it looks like more to me based on this.
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
There's an easily defensible case that Djokovic is better at every major hard court event besides Cincinnati. Djokovic has 3 more slams 7 more final appearances 7 more masters 1 more WTF a way better winning percentage vs top 10 players on higher volume. The list goes on and on. But the big kicker is Djokovic did that with way worse luck on competition and circumstance. Literally the two best non Federer HC seasons Federer had to contend with during his prime were 07 and 08 Djokovic. From 04-07 07 Djokovic is easily the best non Federer HC season. Djokovic has also had outrageously bad luck with random circumstances like the pandemic severely limiting his opportunity to win masters and slams, ridiculous winds interrupting what likely would've been his peak run at the USO in 2012, the default, and even stuff that's in his control but it is also just unlucky like consistently bad draws at the USO which at the very least cost him the 2021 USO. Djokovic achieved universal statistical superiority in a far less advantantageous set of circumstances.
The entire Federer case relies on the USO gap which only exists because of just ridiculous bad luck from Novak's end. 11-16 Djokovic has a reasonable chance at a 6 peat from 04-09 and Djokovic has an inarguably a stronger resume outside of peak period at the USO where Federer was pretty lackluster before and after and Djokovic was strong before and after.
Djokovic is obviously superior on HCs just like Federer is obviously superior on grass but whatever I'm not gonna convince what has become an increasingly radicalized faction on here.
The entire Federer case relies on the USO gap which only exists because of just ridiculous bad luck from Novak's end. 11-16 Djokovic has a reasonable chance at a 6 peat from 04-09 and Djokovic has an inarguably a stronger resume outside of peak period at the USO where Federer was pretty lackluster before and after and Djokovic was strong before and after.
Djokovic is obviously superior on HCs just like Federer is obviously superior on grass but whatever I'm not gonna convince what has become an increasingly radicalized faction on here.
RS
Bionic Poster
Peak Fed vs Peak Djokovic 20 matches at USO?
RS
Bionic Poster
Oh yeah even with WTF I think Fed fans give some extra weight to BO5 and peak level over the extra title Djokovic has. So I think they have him still ahead or maybe equal there too.
RS
Bionic Poster
1964-1967 Muhammad Ali never loses puts them to shame.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea the difference between at this point is more than Jim Courier's entire career, unless we're going down to 250 and 500 level where Federer reigns supreme over him because he was less interested in those. If we're looking at what was most important, Djokovic has 18 more big titles than Federer, and won more titles at 6/9 big hardcourt tournaments (1 was tied) and more at all big clay tournaments, except Hamburg which hasn't been a big tournament in the last 16 years.
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
Right I mean the BO5 thing is what it is Djokovic has no control over that point to the final Novak would've lost in BO5 and maybe it carries some weight. As far as peak level goes Djokovic literally went 4 years in a row without losing a match on indoor hard while facing the best set of HC opposition that's occurred simultaneously in the history of tennis so I'd say that's a pretty ludicrous peak. And as much as 22 and to a lesser extent 23 were not the toughest runs we've ever seen go back and look at Fed's WTFs the competition is pretty awful.
Similar threads
