DSH
Bionic Poster
Bingo!Well, it's the "it's all about the numbers" drum that Djokovic fans have been beating for years. Chickens have come home to roost.
Is this the moment when Nole fans acknowledge that competition matters?
Jannik Sinner 2024 vs. Novak Djokovic 2011 on HC: has the Sinner already surpassed Djokovic peak on HC?
- Thread starter weakera
- Start date
Winners or Errors
Legend
Huh? The discussion to which you were responding was about the fact that Djoker's 2011 competition was vastly superior to Sinner's in 2024. Not sure why your topic is even relevant.The main difference here is that Sinner was tested positive twice in 2024. 2011 Djokovic wasn't. Any sane person knows it completely invalidates the comparison.
But I guess being a Dull devotee explains giving Sinner a free pass.
Biotic
Legend
It shouldn't matter, as any other factor when you know Player B was tested positive. There's no comparison to begin with.
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
14 Slams vs 3 Slams
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
Fun fact; Up until the US Open, Djoko had a 44 percent break rate on HCJannik Sinner 2024
Record: 54-3 (94.7%)
Grand Slams: 2
Titles: 7
ATP Finals: W
Losses with 0 sets won: 0
Novak Djokovic 2011
Record: 46-5 (90.1%)
Grand Slams: 2
Titles: 6
ATP Finals: RR
Losses with 0 sets won: 3
GoatNo1
Legend
in this period, 1,5 years, nole won more big HC titles than sinner in his whole career, and with stronger field but not so much positivity as sinner had.
3 vs 3 slams
2 vs 2 WTFs
7 vs 5 masters
| 21-03-2016 | Miami Masters | W |
| 07-03-2016 | Indian Wells Masters | W |
| 18-01-2016 | Australian Open | W |
| 15-11-2015 | Tour Finals | W |
| 02-11-2015 | Paris Masters | W |
| 11-10-2015 | Shanghai Masters | W |
| 31-08-2015 | US Open | W |
| 16-08-2015 | Cincinnati Masters | F |
| 10-08-2015 | Canada Masters | F |
| 25-03-2015 | Miami Masters | W |
| 12-03-2015 | Indian Wells Masters | W |
| 19-01-2015 | Australian Open | W |
| 09-11-2014 | Tour Finals | W |
| 27-10-2014 | Paris Masters | W |
3 vs 3 slams
2 vs 2 WTFs
7 vs 5 masters
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messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Too early to compare surely?
GoatNo1
Legend
Giocoswitch
New User
In general I'm not a believer that one result should undo a fantastic body of work and consistency over a long period of time, but it's hard to deny that this feels extremely pertinent to the specific debate of Sinner vs Djokovic. And even if you take the period just between Sinner's two AO wins, he hasn't demonstrated as much big title winning on HC as Djokovic regardless of the field. The standards are sky-high and he needs another great run in the future to even approach what was going on from 2015-16
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Djokovic is seen as the HC GOAT for a reason.
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
This is the same reasoning of Federer fans about RG 2011.
One match doesn't tell the full story. Djokovic is better for other reasons (mainly 14 vs 3 Slams)
I'm with you we should wait and see how this situation develops but he'll have to contend with an ever evolving carlos . Sinner needs to evole.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
True, but it doesn't hurt either.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Peak v peak? Id say yes he probably has. USO 2022 QF v Alcaraz was higher level of tennis than ive ever seen from Djokovic.
Or are we limiting this to the AO?
GoatNo1
Legend
maybe, but noles level is highest according to himself, rafa, agassi, becker and the most other ATG players!
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Nobody's peak is higher than Nadal on clay, that is one thing that is undisputed.
xFedal
Legend
Borgs was higher peak on clay I think.
In '11, Djokovic beat several world-class players, such as Nadal & Federer. In fact, he dominated those two, combining for 10-1 record.Jannik Sinner 2024
Record: 54-3 (94.7%)
Grand Slams: 2
Titles: 7
ATP Finals: W
Losses with 0 sets won: 0
Novak Djokovic 2011
Record: 46-5 (90.1%)
Grand Slams: 2
Titles: 6
ATP Finals: RR
Losses with 0 sets won: 3
The only world-class player that Sinner meets is Alcaraz. And Sinner has a record of 2-7 vs Alcaraz the last two years.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
OP has a history of acute tennis analysis
But I will say this. At least OP is willing to make predictions. Most of the eye test brigade no longer does that since they know it would only serve to show how limited their eye test analysis really is.
But I will say this. At least OP is willing to make predictions. Most of the eye test brigade no longer does that since they know it would only serve to show how limited their eye test analysis really is.
GoatNo1
Legend
probably but i am talking about overall peak. tennis is played on 3 surfaces and clay is just one of them and minor compare to hard!
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Clay is the most widely played on surface in the world hardly call that minor.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Borg won RG with the least amount of games lost.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Nadal on clay is the highest peak of anyone in any sport ever..that is actually undisputed fact that is agreed by every sportsperson and has been stated many times.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Overall peak, Federer has a very strong cases for his utter dominance in 2004 to 2007.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Never saw him live but he must have been in some form if people who saw him live saw a better clay court run than Nadal RG 2008
xFedal
Legend
yes Borg twice went on a run better and greater than Nadals 2008, Borg was extremely ruthless in his.
GoatNo1
Legend
compare to HC it is minor and it is the fact!
of 4 slams 2 are on HC and 1 on CC and of 14 big tournaments 9 are on HC and 4 on clay and of all mandatory tournaments 9 are on HC and 3 on CC!
from a quick search it appears this is incorrect.
roughly
~387,000 hard courts worldwide
~180,000 clay courts worldwide
this is not me saying it’s definitive, bc it was just a quick search.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
This is true, HC is the most dominating surface, not clay.
GoatNo1
Legend
can be, but still he was never close to highest level overall. never on any of 2 biggest indoors events. and tennis is not played only on clay. so yes he is the greatest CC player,CC BOAT and CC GOAT. but nole is HC, indoors and overall BOAT and GOAT! and both are undisputed!
GoatNo1
Legend
if it is 4 seasons that is not peak. the absolute peak do not last 4 seasons. it is one year period that is the best to look. one year is all tournaments, all surfaces all conditions but still short enough to sustained the peak level. and even point system is in one year cyrkles! not 4 or 5 years. nole has clearly most dominant year, most dominant season, 20 months and 2 years. why ake 4 but not 10 years or whole career?!?!
one peak year determinate the highest peak and that is noles W15-RG16 with 4 slams, WTF, 5 masters + 3 finals, 2 MM, 16950 points (17110 in current system), 31 top10 wins and 16 top5 wins! that is the highest peak ever!!!!! and no one comes even close to it!
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Djokovic has the best one year, and best 18 month, I agree.
But everyone has their own perception of what is peak.
GoatNo1
Legend
peak is the peak. nole simultaneously owned all 4 slams, WTF, 5 masters and made 3 more finals + 2 MM. he has the PEAK record of 16950 points. that is the peak!
he has also the best 2 years, W14-RG16!
fed had negative h2h vs his main rival in his own era and in his greatest season or year. he had 2 rivals with 10+ matches that he had negative h2h to, so how he can be undisputed the most dominant player ever even if we take a longer periods.
nole simultaneously held most important and best titles, had records in points, ELO and top10 wins in a year (or the season) and all those by significant margin and with positive h2h vs all rivals he played more than few matches! under one year he dominate ALL surfaces, conditions and rivals as no one ever did!
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Yes, I am aware no one had a better peak year long run that Djokovic.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
You are delusional lol. Djokovic is not greatest on any surface peak wise, that is undisputed.
You seem nto not understand what 'highest peak' means. Nobody in history in any sport has had a higher peak than Nadal on clay, that is undisputed fact.
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
Sorry, but that's just wrong.
Messi in soccer is better.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Ever heard of:
Maradona
Pele
Cristiano Ronaldo
Ronaldo R9
Platini
Zico
Zidane
Rivaldo
Gullit
Ronaldinho
George Best
Messi's career was built thanks to Xavi and Iniesta!
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
Well, please consider that soccer is a SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult sport than tennis.
Ever heard of:
Maradona
Pele
Cristiano Ronaldo
Ronaldo R9
Platini
Zico
Zidane
Rivaldo
Gullit
Ronaldinho
George Best
Messi's career was built thanks to Xavi and Iniesta!
Winning one world cup = winning 20 Slams minimum
srinivas vangala
New User
Agree that Federer was too good in 2005. Safin match was top quality in Australia
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
You do know many World Cups have been totally rigged. Obvious ones are:
Argentina 1978 (Peru had an Argentinian GK in goal for a match against Argentina they needed to win 5-0..they won 6-0!)
France 1998 (whole R9 saga was obvious distraction)
Qatar 2022 (Argentina undefeated for 3 years lose 1st match to Saudi Arabia then win World Cup final between two countries who star players played for a team sponsored by Qatar Airways)
Pains me to say it, but England 1966 was dodgy AF, and Germany 1974 ive doubts over given the Netherlands were comfortably the best side in the world then and Germany 1974 and France 1998 both seem fixed for the hosts who were vastly inferiror to the runners-up.
If you are smart, put $1,000 on USA winning this years World Cup!
Giocoswitch
New User
Culturally yes, but there are plenty of bums or unknown players with a world cup on their resumes. No one with 20 slams could reasonably be described as a bum or unknown
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
In terms of difficulty to become highly skilled at the sport and master the techniques, soccer >>>>> tennis.
It's not even remotely comparable.
It's like comparing prime Nadal on clay to prime Ruud on clay.
If you've played both sports or at least tried, you would know, believe me.
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
Look, think of it this way:
Tennis is arguably one of the (if not, THE) easiest sports in the world. The techniques are incredibly easy to master compared to e.g. soccer or basketball.
This means that the sport automatically filters out athletes who are naturally exceptionally gifted, because only the least talented and skilled people resort to choosing tennis (over other far harder sports).
But as for soccer, it's exactly the other way around. Because of how ridiculously hard it is to reach pro level in soccer, only the very best of the best among the most gifted athletes in the world choose the sport. This means that a supposed "bum" in soccer is still very likely to have a far higher aptitude than a 10+ Grand Slam champion in tennis.
Let me give you an analogy: if you were a billionaire and you really wanted to eat some sushi, what option would you choose, Michelin-starred Omakase or gas station sushi? Well, you'd obviously choose the first option. Why? Because a billionaire can afford opulent meals. Similarly, a soccer player can afford to pursue soccer because he has enough talent and skill to succeed in this ultra-difficult sport.
On the other hand, if you were broke (or facing significant financial struggles) yet you still really wanted to eat some sushi, you'd have no choice but to choose the second option: the gas station sushi. Why? Well, because you simply cannot afford opulent meals. This broke guy represents a tennis player.
In case it wasn't obvious, the Michelin-starred Omakase symbolizes the sport of soccer, whereas the gas station sushi represents the sport of tennis.
tl;dr
soccer is for the best of the best, whereas tennis is for the worst of the worst. Even reaching pro level in a field consisting of the best of the best > dominating in a field consisting of the worst of the worst.
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crazyups
Professional
1994 world cup semi final Bulgaria vs Italy was totally rigged with the blatant non call when Lechkov was tripped in front of the goal, not to mention other non calls that benefitted Italy.
GoatNo1
Legend
and that is THE PEAK. what player hold at that time! titles, records, wins!
GoatNo1
Legend
yes, just on clay. he is clay GOAT and BOAT. nole is overal GOAT and BOAT and HC and indoors GOAT and BOAT!
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