Jannik Sinner Needs To Be Banned from The Game

The problem is that he failed two drug tests and yet was not suspended unlike a whole host of other players who failed tests. He may well be personally innocent but the suspension should have been automatic pending an inquiry that could clear him (or convict him). It's that failure to follow procedure that has made a lot of people suspicious that he's been getting preferential treatment and the main reason that WADA is appealing this.

Of what failure to follow procedure are you speaking? Everybody who bothered to actually read the stuff should have noticed that there was none. Just because some were talking out of their backsides in the first days?

The appeal of WADA is the unprecedented part and not following normal procedure...
 
The problem is that he failed two drug tests and yet was not suspended unlike a whole host of other players who failed tests. He may well be personally innocent but the suspension should have been automatic pending an inquiry that could clear him (or convict him). It's that failure to follow procedure that has made a lot of people suspicious that he's been getting preferential treatment and the main reason that WADA is appealing this.
But there are other players like Bortolotti who were treated like Sinner. Sure there are cases when players weren't treated fairly but to not complain about that fact but rather say that the next player should now also be treated unfairly doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
 
Well, he is not guilty, but he was doped.
Just because doping was found in his body, he should bear the consequences, even though he is not personally guilty.
That has already occurred. Sinner forfeited both his ranking points and his prize money ($325K) from Indian Wells 2024. This punishment was for a positive test during competition. The underlying cause of the positive test -- in this case, an accidental exposure -- did not matter because the rules prescribe the consequences for the test result alone, regardless of the cause.

If on top of that, a suspension is imposed by the CAS at the request of WADA, it will not be because "doping was found in his body," as you put it. It will be because, if the CAS reaches this conclusion, Sinner did not do enough in supervising his team to prevent an accidental exposure to a banned substance.
For the sake of peace on the tennis tour, he should serve a short suspension.
I have no idea what that means. Aside from the rants from Kyrgios types when the Sinner news first broke before the U.S. Open, I haven't noticed any pros on the tour storming the arenas with torches and pitchforks.
 
@JoshDragon @Rosstour @Smecz @GloW @FeroBango @weakera
Who of you actually liked Sinner before all of this? Are you sure you‘d have the same reaction if the same story came out about your favourite players?

I slightly liked him. He doesn't do anything to really spark my interest but anyone who can break Djoko stranglehold on the game is good with me. I certainly didn't dislike him, although I was very critical of the giant Nike contract and his behavior towards them.
 
That has already occurred. Sinner forfeited both his ranking points and his prize money ($325K) from Indian Wells 2024. This punishment was for a positive test during competition. The underlying cause of the positive test -- in this case, an accidental exposure -- did not matter because the rules prescribe the consequences for the test result alone, regardless of the cause.

If on top of that, a suspension is imposed by the CAS at the request of WADA, it will not be because "doping was found in his body," as you put it. It will be because, if the CAS reaches this conclusion, Sinner did not do enough in supervising his team to prevent an accidental exposure to a banned substance.

I have no idea what that means. Aside from the rants from Kyrgios types when the Sinner news first broke before the U.S. Open, I haven't noticed any pros on the tour storming the arenas with torches and pitchforks.

They aren't happy. Lots of pros have made comments that aren't universally supportive, and when you consider that they're giving PR answers already...quite a few of them threw shade at him
 
They aren't happy. Lots of pros have made comments that aren't universally supportive, and when you consider that they're giving PR answers already...quite a few of them threw shade at him
I don't consider griping and whining by some hypercompetitive people to constitute a breach of the peace. Moreover, punishing someone because others are baying for it is the worst possible reason.
 
I don't consider griping and whining by some hypercompetitive people to constitute a breach of the peace. Moreover, punishing someone because others are baying for it is the worst possible reason.

Yeah you have "high threshold disorder" where only the most extreme displays register as consequential

These pros are not gonna get violent over this. Not sure what you expect
 
Yeah you have "high threshold disorder" where only the most extreme displays register as consequential

These pros are not gonna get violent over this. Not sure what you expect
I don't expect anything (except that in general, any disgruntled players will soon turn their attention to some other complaint about the tour). I was just responding to the suggestion that Sinner should be banned "for the sake of peace on the tour." That's a bad argument on factual grounds and a terrible argument on legal or moral grounds.
 
Sinner is way worse than McGwire in the sense that Big Mac knew MLB was consciously looking the other way while it was going on. Sinner is thumbing his nose and violating the sports integrity during an era in which it is seen as criminal.
The tennis establishment is covering for him.

Annacone: “it was just such a teeny tiny little amount.”
 
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That has already occurred. Sinner forfeited both his ranking points and his prize money ($325K) from Indian Wells 2024. This punishment was for a positive test during competition. The underlying cause of the positive test -- in this case, an accidental exposure -- did not matter because the rules prescribe the consequences for the test result alone, regardless of the cause.

If on top of that, a suspension is imposed by the CAS at the request of WADA, it will not be because "doping was found in his body," as you put it. It will be because, if the CAS reaches this conclusion, Sinner did not do enough in supervising his team to prevent an accidental exposure to a banned substance.

I have no idea what that means. Aside from the rants from Kyrgios types when the Sinner news first broke before the U.S. Open, I haven't noticed any pros on the tour storming the arenas with torches and pitchforks.
I have agreed with you from the start. But I want to bring up one other point that almost no one is pointing to. What realistic adult over the age of 30 expects a 22 year old to be on top of everything? People are suggesting that it was his responsibility to know everything that was going on. What 22 year old could do that?

The second thing that stands out is that people want Sinner to be punished for overreaches in the past that definitely were not fair. And there is no doubt in my mind that there were huge overreaches. But I don't want vengeance for those overreaches. I just want the overreaches to stop.

What is most incomprehensible to me is why fans of Carlos think that Sinner getting banned is going to be a good thing in the long haul for Carlos. I personally prefer Carlos to Sinner. I would love to see him become a more consistent player who gets to number one in the world. But I want to see that happen by winning matches in the future, not by getting there because his closest competitor is removed from the game.
 
Well, he is not guilty, but he was doped.
Just because doping was found in his body, he should bear the consequences, even though he is not personally guilty.
For the sake of peace on the tennis tour, he should serve a short suspension.
I don't buy it, Majchrzak had a similar situation, a contaminated supplement, an illegal substance, and a 2-year suspension, and now he's somehow coming back to the game, Sinner's punishment is nothing...
 
He should be banned, but not for steroids, since he wasn't banned when he tested positive as he should have been. He should be banned for serving us the dumbest excuse ever. It's not like there weren't already loads of Italians who tested positive for clostebol, and some of them already used the same (or very similar) excuse. Ridiculous.

anyone who can break Djoko stranglehold on the game is good with me.
Ahh, yes. Even if he doped his way to the top. Average fedfan's love for the game is very touching.
 
Here's a post, that you might find interesting about Jannik Sinner's clostebol case. This was written by an anesthesiologist, who brought up several points that I wasn't privy to about what would need to take place for this substance to have been detected in Sinner's system.


1. Billionths of a gram” is how almost all PEDs / metabolites are measured, in nanograms per deciliter. It’s a common measurement for many tests. It was smart of the PR team to include it in that language as laypeople will read it a certain way, but it’s not meaningful in context. What IS meaningful is that that amount, taken at that time, is not effective to enhance performance. We do not have further information to say if the levels were ever higher, and that’s why he was proven innocent. Whether or not the levels were ever higher is a question mark, and one could postulate that’s likely if they wanted to accuse him, but they were never *documented* to be higher.

2. For detectable systemic (bloodstream) absorption in the time frame described, the anabolic-androgenic steroid would have had to enter Sinner via cuts, not transdermally, which is why the open skin is mentioned so much.

3. As many of you have mentioned, it’s definitely icky / not within medical standards to not perform hand hygiene/wear gloves before something like a massage knowing both parties have open cuts. AND, it was a physiotherapist, not a physician, we don’t give massages, we wear gloves for everything and they perhaps don’t. And these physios have close, long term relationships to their athletes unlike a typical healthcare worker with a patient they know for less than a day. Like, it’s possible that some of them almost never wear gloves. [Edit: I removed a tongue in cheek stereotypical comment about Italians being touchy.]

4. Most people are familiar with topical corticosteroids like hydrocortisone or clobetasol (note very similar spelling to clostebol). Those are corticosteroids and commonly used worldwide for pretty much all skin conditions. Over time, corticosteroids generally lead to catabolism (molecule breakdown). Interestingly, used systemically, they are ALSO banned per doping regulations and only allowed topically. Clostebol in contrast is an anabolic (molecule building) steroid with vastly different effects. Any topical use would likely not be an issue if it had not absorbed through the bloodstream.

5. This is why I see so much grey zone. If topical corticosteroid use is allowed and it’s known to absorb systemically with high doses over time, why allow it? Corticosteroids are a perfect example of a life saving drug for people with asthma and are indicated for hundreds of other medical issues. Without a deep understanding of how these nuances are handled for athletes with medical conditions, seriously just put the phone down, your opinion doesn’t make sense.

6. I know nobody wants to think about this, because we all want cold hard scientific facts, but lab error when we’re talking about this minuscule level of a highly uncommonly tested metabolite is real. Even when you test a basic blood level like potassium, it can be off by a pretty significant margin of error depending on numerous location-dependent lab factors, and that test is drawn billions of times a day across the globe and I make medical decisions based on these imperfect data points as do all physicians.

The part in bold is very, very important for understanding this case. In order for detectable systemic absorption to have occurred, in the time frame mentioned, The substance would have had to enter Sinner's body via cuts. Not transdermally. Meaning that even if they had sprayed Sinner with that cream, directly sprayed him too by the way. Which they claimed that they didn't do! It STILL would not have been enough for him to have gotten flagged for clostebol, during the two drug tests. Like I said before, it had to be transmitted through cuts.
 
Of what failure to follow procedure are you speaking? Everybody who bothered to actually read the stuff should have noticed that there was none. Just because some were talking out of their backsides in the first days?

The appeal of WADA is the unprecedented part and not following normal procedure...

That, after failing 2 drug tests, he was not suspended pending an inquiry. Isn't that normal procedure when this happens or am I mistaken? WADA certainly doesn't seem to think so or they would not be appealing.
 
It is absolutely disgusting to see the way that the Talking Heads in the ATP media are covering for this guy!! He failed not one, but two drug tests! They pitch one of the most ridiculous stories, that I've ever heard, about how he managed to get the clostebol into his system in the first place and we're supposed to just accept this story??! Like they're not trying to cover for the guy. :mad: When is justice going to be done about this?

Still, it is more than a bit ironic that the poster demanding justice has Trump as his avatar.

:p
 
Ahh, yes. Even if he doped his way to the top. Average fedfan's love for the game is very touching.
I'm a fedfan. But I'm not a Stan. I like Sinner and I wish him nothing but the best in the future. You are forgetting that the majority of fans are like me, reasonably fair and wanting the future of tennis to be great. Whenever you do a poll you find out how many nice people there are. But you rarely hear from them and even if you do they get drowned out by the Stans.
 
That, after failing 2 drug tests, he was not suspended pending an inquiry. Isn't that normal procedure when this happens or am I mistaken? WADA certainly doesn't seem to think so or they would not be appealing.
Yes. It is a normal procedure to give a provisional ban. BUT as the #1 player in the world he was given an "Emergency Appeal" which resulted in his story being pitched and accepted. The officials then discussed with Sinner exactly how they were going to drop this story. But they declared him to be not at fault. And that's the reason why he was allowed to keep going.
 
Good luck with that. If you think that life can ever be fair you haven't been living long enough to see that it never happens.

Of course life in general is anything but fair but that doesn't mean we shouldn't always strive in that direction and try to be transparent about it.
 
I'm a fedfan. But I'm not a Stan. I like Sinner and I wish him nothing but the best in the future. You are forgetting that the majority of fans are like me, reasonably fair and wanting the future of tennis to be great. Whenever you do a poll you find out how many nice people there are. But you rarely hear from them and even if you do they get drowned out by the Stans.
I agree. I was meaning to say "fednatic", which is different from "fedfan", but I chose not to as I'm not in the mood to start a fight. Didn't realize it will create a different kind of issue.
 
Yes. It is a normal procedure to give a provisional ban. BUT as the #1 player in the world he was given an "Emergency Appeal" which resulted in his story being pitched and accepted. The officials then discussed with Sinner exactly how they were going to drop this story. But they declared him to be not at fault. And that's the reason why he was allowed to keep going.

It may seem unrealistic but no player should be given special treatment based on their ranking (other than to be seeded at tournaments of course).
 
I agree. I was meaning to say "fednatic", which is different from "fedfan", but I chose not to as I'm not in the mood to start a fight. Didn't realize it will create a different kind of issue.
There is no issue for me. I point out continually that the vocal minority is not an accurate presentation of most people. And I need to remind myself of that fact because some days I become very bitter about humanity.
 
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That's exactly what makes it sad, genius.

What makes it sad? That I originally liked the guy because he looked to be able to break the unipolar stranglehold, then lost respect for him after the doping stuff came out?

Yes, very sad.
 
Of course life in general is anything but fair but that doesn't mean we shouldn't always strive in that direction and try to be transparent about it.
I agree. But in my mind the whole subject of doping is so fuzzy that fairness is really impossible. I'm sure there are a lot of things out there right now that the richest people in the sport are using because they are not illegal and may never be illegal but they still give an unfair advantage to the richest players.

I believe in the future the line between the legal and illegal regarding substances is going to blur more and more. I make no attempt to say whether that is good or bad. If an illegal substance clearly has serious side effects decreasing health and longevity then I think it is very easy to see the difference between winning more but suffering many bad side effects. The problem is that in the future we may discover all sorts of things that enhance competition that don't have clear negative impacts on health. Then these substances may simply be very expensive and unavailable to those who are not rich. I think this is already happening.
 
I see threads from both Sinner lovers and Sinner haters with provocative statements clearly designed to incite some battles among ttw users.
When will such threads stop
 
I've said from the beginning the story was just too implausible to be believable. My opinion would be the same if the situation were with Carlos, Novak, Sasha, whomever. Not a Sinner hater.

Can someone please answer this though: Over the years TTW has asserted that top players don't get popped for PED's because instead they are given silent bans to preserve the integrity of the sport.

So why didn't Sinner get a silent ban? Clearly he and Carlos are the future of the ATP so why let one of the golden geese pop for PED's?
 
What I find hilarious about this story is people are being like "Oh he's guilty till proven innocent" Uh... no. He was guilty. He tested positive, twice. Also the story about it was kept quiet for most of the year until they were FORCED to reveal it. Not because they wanted to reveal it, because they HAD too and could spin it their own way. The substance he's supposed to have accidently took has a HUGE visable doping warning label on it, It's avalible in countries like Italy without a perscription but somehow Sinner had it with him in other countries without a perscription? Come on.

Everything about this story stinks and too many people defend it and yet he was cleared of wrong-doing and allowed to play so blame the invesigation. Other tennis players are still seen as guilty in the public eye with absolutely zero proof of their so called crimes yet Sinner gets off scot-free in the public image despite actual evidence of his.
 
What do you think a tiny amount of Clostebol cream would actually do for him? What real significant advantage would that weak drug give him in regards to his performance? Not much if any.
 
What do you think a tiny amount of Clostebol cream would actually do for him? What real significant advantage would that weak drug give him in regards to his performance? Not much if any.
I think the assumption is that it is used as a masking agent. Nobody thinks he was doping through massage lol.
 
As far as I can see his fans consider him innocent and the people who don't like him assume he is guilty. I think we are dealing with typical social media polarization.
This is essentially what I was typing in a long response to the last @Spin Diesel post mentioning me. This is basically it.

Either you give him the benefit of the doubt or you don't. I personally don't. Some do and that's okay.

Also no, that redacted case isn't really the same as the Sinner case the way I see it. It also is a part of the larger conspiracy (that the case was cleared to make way for the Sinner case).

Let's see. No amount of dope will automatically make him the monster he's become. It's primarily his incredible dedication to improvement (and clostebol ofc).
 
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MAGA has entered the chat...


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Sinner is the only real dominant player on tour that is consistent in winning. . That’s why they don’t want to see him go. If we don’t have Sinner we could potentially get Medvedev-Fritz finals all year LOL Who the hell is gonna tune in to see that. The tour will lose a ton of money if sinner is gone
 
Good question. You can go through my posts to see if I rated him or not -- even during the times he'd be relentlessly mocked for his bottling feats. He was always a generational talent who was bound to have this success in my eyes -- even without clostebol.

For the question, no I didn't like him before. I didn't dislike him either (did have issues with the legion of obnoxious fan accounts of his as do several others here). Post the scandal, let's just say that it's easier to say I don't particularly like him. When the world criticises a group, there's a tendency for said group to become cult-like and the already cult-esque fandom has only grown worse since the scandal.

I'll continue to not hide my displeasure at what's happened and indeed, this is a uniquely Sinner situation. Personally me and an IRL friend like Nicolas Jarry because despite his doping, it wasn't close to being the cover-up stinkfest of a scandal that this Jannik story has been.

Had Jarry escaped ban, continued to play during investigation, had the same layer who is working against Tara Moore on an accidental doping case, call himself a victim through PR, passive aggressively say who his reAl friEnds are and had a legion of fans coming together to form the worst fanbase on earth, my sentiments on Jarry may have been different after the doping.

But to be fair to Jarry, he served his time, and didn't insult the intelligence of the Tennis watching masses the way the Sinner coterie has.
To be fair (and I like you), the hate towards Sinner just seems forced and simply because they are Carlos fans. You and many others were clear Carlos the Shepherd fans before the doping, and were already harsh on him. It was easy for you guys to bring in the hate, and maybe it was even justified.

But let us not pretend this is some moral fight. Life is not black and white and neither is this case. There is ZERO evidence that he gained ANY help from these failed drug tests. The science proves that his story could be true and that it had ZERO help to his game as the amount was insignificant.

It is why we have things like manslaughter instead of murder. Should he be punished for his carelessness? Yes.

But it is ridiculous and comes off as hate from Carlos fans when fans rip Sinner as some Lance doper who is only dominating cause he is doping.

News fact, Sinner is more dominant than Carlos and is currently the best player on the tour right now... oh and he did this while NOT doping.


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The problem is that he failed two drug tests and yet was not suspended unlike a whole host of other players who failed tests. He may well be personally innocent but the suspension should have been automatic pending an inquiry that could clear him (or convict him). It's that failure to follow procedure that has made a lot of people suspicious that he's been getting preferential treatment and the main reason that WADA is appealing this.
Does it really matter if it was 1, 2 or 3 drug tests? I mean, he has admitted that his physio used the clostebol cream and transferred it to him, so you would expect all tests to be correctly positive. Its not like he is claiming the test results are false? He is claiming he is innocent, and that keeping control on which hand creams your physio uses, really cant be expected from players.
 
Also the story about it was kept quiet for most of the year until they were FORCED to reveal it. Not because they wanted to reveal it, because they HAD too and could spin it their own way.
Again, what happened to the silent bans I've heard about for 20 years on TTW? Why were they FORCED to reveal it? If silent bans were real they would just bury the result and give him a silent ban.

I'm starting to think TTW is not a reliable source!
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