Jannik Sinner Needs To Be Banned from The Game

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Again, what happened to the silent bans I've heard about for 20 years on TTW? Why were they FORCED to reveal it? If silent bans were real they would just bury the result and give him a silent ban.

I'm starting to think TTW is not a reliable source!
suicide-santa.gif
lol no one can keep a secret. They do not have silent bans.
 

1H-Backhand

Rookie
We live in a free speech world and obviously everyone is going to have their opinions on what kind of punishment, if any, Sinner should get for having failed those 2 tests.
But what baffles me is that there is still someone out there who believes Sinner intentionally doped.
He never tested positive again after falling victim to contamination (during this time he would have been tested quite regularly, maybe even more frequently) and since then he has pretty much won every single match he played, showing that he really is the best in the world.
Why on earth would someone, who knows his potential, risk everything by knowingly taking a banned substance?
So, it's not just science who tells us it was unintentional, it's also common sense.
I'd love to see those detractors in Sinner's shoes! The way he has handled the whole situation has just proven that, not only is he clean, but he also has an astonishing mental strength.
 
Stinks. I was genuinely having a good time this year with the rise of Sinner for we had two genuinely great young talents on top, but then the doping/subsequent cover-job happened.

I've not been able to look at the Sinner season the same way again since. Phenomenal talent but the stink is only not felt by the ardent fans of his.
It has definitely cast a large shadow over the year. You are right.
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
Either you give him the benefit of the doubt or you don't. I personally don't. Some do and that's okay.
"Benefit of the doubt" is typically a consideration that applies before the facts are in. If the only information available to tennis fans was that Sinner had tested positive, then we would expect some people to say, "I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt -- it must have been some kind of accident," while others might declare, "Sinner doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt; he's probably a serious doper."

But at this stage -- after a long investigation by the ITIA, interviews of witnesses, gathering of documentary evidence, scientific analysis and expert reports, a hearing at which both sides presented their cases, and a thoughtful written decision by the Independent Tribunal -- we are well beyond "benefit of the doubt" as a relevant factor. What we have instead is a group of people simply rejecting the result of the official process even though there is no evidence of any intentional or systematic doping. It's a "cover-up" or "conspiracy" mindset. It's not based on access to overlooked facts.

In fact, framing the issue this way makes it clear that perhaps the biggest flaw in the position of the Sinner critics is their inability to recognize that a positive test result is the beginning of the investigative and enforcement process, not the end of it. The essence of their position since the Sinner news first broke has been, and continues to be, "Two positive tests -- case closed! Doper! Cheater! Clostebol!" And that's it. No investigation, review, or appeal by anyone will change that.
 

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
Again, what happened to the silent bans I've heard about for 20 years on TTW? Why were they FORCED to reveal it? If silent bans were real they would just bury the result and give him a silent ban.

Because the infomation about the results was going public the week after they announced his test results, They had I think 4-5 months to reveal it but they waited until the last moment they could before it was public information and getting released anyway.
 
I think he gets a 6-12 month ban. I think WADA intervened because they had to and he couldn’t be treated differently to us. I think CAS will rule him out most of 2025.

It the fact that many who failed drug tests have been given a lengthy ban or were banned immediately. I don’t see him or getting anything but it likely won’t be 2 years
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Again, what happened to the silent bans I've heard about for 20 years on TTW? Why were they FORCED to reveal it? If silent bans were real they would just bury the result and give him a silent ban.

I'm starting to think TTW is not a reliable source!
suicide-santa.gif
Sinner's silent ban starts Monday November 25th and will last for around 45 days.
 

norcal

Legend
lol no one can keep a secret. They do not have silent bans.
Okay we are left with 2 conclusions:

1. Doping was accidental and non-performance enhancing - this conclusion is supported by Sinner's results the rest of the year, in which he played as well or better than before.

2. He was doping to the gills, got caught and he still continues to dope to the gills, just using an undectable masking agent now - this conclusion is supported by Sinner's results the rest of the year, in which he played as well or better than before.

Which is it, 1 or 2?

If 2, Sinner's got elephantiasis size balls.
 
Year? Entire decade. If Sinner continues at this pace, so will the outrage that he is a doper and that is the reason why. If he gets banned, then anything others wins will be put into question, as they wont be looked at as the best.
I think he has to be treated the same as other athletes before him. I can see a 6-12 month ban being given and that would be fair enough.

If he’s banned then it isn’t the other players fault. It is his and his team fault. It is what it is.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Okay we are left with 2 conclusions:

1. Doping was accidental and non-performance enhancing - this conclusion is supported by Sinner's results the rest of the year, in which he played as well or better than before.

2. He was doping to the gills, got caught and he still continues to dope to the gills, just using an undectable masking agent now - this conclusion is supported by Sinner's results the rest of the year, in which he played as well or better than before.

Which is it, 1 or 2?

If 2, Sinner's got elephantiasis size balls.
I think it is one. That said, I could see something in between where he was using it to mask or something similar. That said, there is no proof of enhancement based on the insignificant amount found in his system.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
I think he has to be treated the same as other athletes before him. I can see a 6-12 month ban being given and that would be fair enough.

If he’s banned then it isn’t the other players fault. It is his and his team fault. It is what it is.
Disagree.

He is the clear cut best player in the world. The best HC player by a mile, the reigning champ at many tourneys, and improving on every surface.

If Sinner is not playing, then many fans with question it. Imagine Djoker getting banned for more than 1 slam, but lets say 4 slams? Eh?

I know if Sinner is not playing AO, I will not be impressed with Carlos winning, or anybody. But a full years worth? Nah.

If Djoker did not play 4 slams in 2021 because of Covid related issues, I would not value that year of tennis.
 
Disagree.

He is the clear cut best player in the world. The best HC player by a mile, the reigning champ at many tourneys, and improving on every surface.

If Sinner is not playing, then many fans with question it. Imagine Djoker getting banned for more than 1 slam, but lets say 4 slams? Eh?

I know if Sinner is not playing AO, I will not be impressed with Carlos winning, or anybody. But a full years worth? Nah.
It possible. I know it not good for the sport but the damage has already been done. WADA would not have appealed unless they had a strong case against him.

It is a shame for his career but actions have consequences unfortunately.
 

norcal

Legend
Puerta. Probably Korda too but he didn't fail a test until months after the 1998 AO.
Yeah I was thinking Korda too, tested positive in close proximity to his lone slam.

Also didn't Canas get his best results (and jacked like whoa) right around when he got popped.

multimedia.normal.8ba0c8c000695c32.6e6f726d616c2e6a7067.jpg
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Year? Entire decade. If Sinner continues at this pace, so will the outrage that he is a doper and that is the reason why. If he gets banned, than anything others wins will be put into question, as they wont be looked at as the best.
Yep. The future of this sport is going to be in a lot of trouble. Like Mark McGwire did to baseball. It will never be the same again.
 

jm1972

Semi-Pro
What do you think a tiny amount of Clostebol cream would actually do for him? What real significant advantage would that weak drug give him in regards to his performance? Not much if any.

A tiny amount of clostebol was what he tested for. You don't know what was the amount of clostebol he had in his system the days before the test.
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
It possible. I know it not good for the sport but the damage has already been done. WADA would not have appealed unless they had a strong case against him.
That conclusion is unwarranted (the idea that appeals are always well-founded -- not at all), but regardless, you must ask yourself this: "a strong case against him" for what?

If Sinner gets suspended as a result of the CAS decision, it won't be for being a doper. It will be for being a bad supervisor. Let that sink in. The issue on appeal is whether Sinner should be blamed for his team's screwing up and making the accidental banned substance exposure possible.

It's important to keep this reality in mind because if the CAS does impose, say, a 3-6 month ban, we will inevitably see a flurry of ridiculous posts here announcing, "Sinner has been banned!! See, that proves he's a doper!!" No matter how many times it's explained that the appeal is not even about that issue, we know that's how any ban will be misconstrued (perhaps deliberately misconstrued in some cases).
 

jm1972

Semi-Pro
Crazy coincidence this guy had a huge step-up in results the same year he tests positive for a steroid (twice).
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Yeah I was thinking Korda too, tested positive in close proximity to his lone slam.

Also didn't Canas get his best results (and jacked like whoa) right around when he got popped.

multimedia.normal.8ba0c8c000695c32.6e6f726d616c2e6a7067.jpg
I think he failed his test in early 2005 and he had already had success back in 2002, winning the Canada Masters.
 

NattyGut

Professional
Yep. The future of this sport is going to be in a lot of trouble. Like Mark McGwire did to baseball. It will never be the same again.
Yeah if the offending drug is weight watchers and ozempic. Sinner is in his 20s, a toothpick, the drug didn't enhance anything, and he has been kicking ass and taking names for months since the incident.

Mark, Sammy, Roger (Clemens), Jose, AROD, and Barry took HGH and serious steroids in their 40s and morphed into unrecognizable beings, smashing all their prior records. Sinner had a trace amount of something akin to hemorrhoid cream in his system at 20 and thereafter went on to destroy the field in 2H of 2024.
 
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Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
It is absolutely disgusting to see the way that the Talking Heads in the ATP media are covering for this guy!! He failed not one, but two drug tests! They pitch one of the most ridiculous stories, that I've ever heard, about how he managed to get the clostebol into his system in the first place and we're supposed to just accept this story??! Like they're not trying to cover for the guy. :mad: When is justice going to be done about this?

The bottom line is that the minuscule amount found in his system was NOT deemed to be performance-enhancing. Not at all.
That is evidenced by the clean Sinner continuing to kick everyone's ass for the rest of the year. If he was doping we would expect to see a performance drop-off.
That is what the experts determined in a court of law where all evidence was presented. No performance-enhancing benefit whatsoever. Get that through your head.
Just let it go. Why are you so disgruntled and agitated? You sound like Kamala.
:unsure:
 
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JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Yeah if the offending drug is weight watchers and ozempic. Sinner is a toothpick, the drug didn't enhance anything, and he has been kicking ass and taking names for months since. Mark, Sammy, and Barry took HGH, in their 40s and morphed into the hulk.
Are you saying that clostebol doesn't have the potential of helping an athlete to improve their performance? o_O
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
The bottom line is that the minuscule amount found in his system was NOT deemed to be performance-enhancing. Not at all.
That is evidenced by the clean Sinner continuing to kick everyone's ass for the rest of the year. If he was doping we would expect to see a performance drop-off.
That is what the experts determined in a court of law where all evidence was presented. No performance-enhancing benefit whatsoever. Get that through your head.
Just let it go. Why are you so disgruntled and agitated?
:unsure:
Is it possible that he had more than a billionth of a gram in his system at one time? The answer is yes.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Dude, this thread is garbage, have fun with your tin foil hat.
I called out your previous statement. Which was basically nothing more than a strawman argument. I asked if you were implying that clostebol doesn't have the ability to help improve the performance of an athlete. And your response was to call me a tin-foil hat wearing kook. :-D
 

NattyGut

Professional
I called out your previous statement. Which was basically nothing more than a strawman argument. I asked if you were implying that clostebol doesn't have the ability to help improve the performance of an athlete. And your response was to call me a tin-foil hat wearing kook. :-D
You didn't call out anything except your misunderstanding of clostebol, testing, and what it means when they found that Sinner had "trace amounts" in his system ... seriously, this thread is stupid.

in a peer reviewed study --

The detectability level for this study was 0,1ng/ml, and they did 3 experiments:

1: female applied clostebol cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied clostebol himself cream once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied clostebol herself cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.
 
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Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
How long does it take for clostebol to be absorbed into a person / athlete's bloodstream?

What part of randomly tested do you not understand? He could be tested one day and tested again 2 days later. It is random.
Your theory would hold if he was tested at regular intervals. And your favourite Sinner could plan his doping strategy accordingly. But there is no doping plan for random testing.
Sinner must have psychic powers which allow him to know when the pissing collectors knock on the door.
 

NattyGut

Professional
What part of randomly tested do you not understand? He could be tested one day and tested again 2 days later. It is random.
Sinner must have psychic powers which allow him to know when the pissed collectors knock on the door.
Not only random but see post above about the peer review study

The detectability level for this study was 0,1ng/ml, and they did 3 experiments:

1: female applied cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied himself cream once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied herself cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.

As for the kynetics, the levels tend to have an early peak, and once they reach 1-2ng/ml it goes very slowly down (on experiment 1, the male volunteer went from 30 to 2ng in 5 days, and from 2ng to 0,8ng in the next 6 days).

Sinner's levels were 0,086ng/ml and 0,076ng/ml, for reference.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Literally answered right above your post ... this thread appears in Webter's as synonymous with misinformation, conjecture, and ignorance
Wrong! As I said before, in order for this substance to have been detected through the drug tests, it had to be transmitted through cuts. Not transdermally or through casual contact.

The physio applying this cream (onto his injured pinky finger) and then massaging Sinner is not going to result in the clostebol showing up in Sinner's drug test. Therefore the entire story is BS.
 

NattyGut

Professional
Wrong! As I said before, in order for this substance to have been detected through the drug tests, it had to be transmitted through cuts. Not transdermally or through casual contact.

The physio applying this cream (onto his injured pinky finger) and then massaging Sinner is not going to result in the clostebol showing up in Sinner's drug test. Therefore the entire story is BS.
Are you illiterate or just trolling. Either way -- again.

The detectability level for this study of clostebol was 0,1ng/ml, and they did 3 experiments:

1: female applied CLOSTEBOL cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied CLOSTEBOL cream to himself once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied herself with CLOSTEBOL cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.

As for the kynetics, the levels tend to have an early peak, and once they reach 1-2ng/ml it goes very slowly down (on experiment 1, the male volunteer went from 30 to 2ng in 5 days, and from 2ng to 0,8ng in the next 6 days).

Sinner's levels of CLOSTEBOL were 0,086ng/ml and 0,076ng/ml, for reference.

Study is here -- this thread is garbage.

 
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jm1972

Semi-Pro
Are you illiterate or just trolling. Either way -- again.

The detectability level for this study of clostebol was 0,1ng/ml, and they did 3 experiments:

1: female applied CLOSTEBOL cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied CLOSTEBOL cream to himself once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied herself with CLOSTEBOL cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.

As for the kynetics, the levels tend to have an early peak, and once they reach 1-2ng/ml it goes very slowly down (on experiment 1, the male volunteer went from 30 to 2ng in 5 days, and from 2ng to 0,8ng in the next 6 days).

Sinner's levels of CLOSTEBOL were 0,086ng/ml and 0,076ng/ml, for reference.

I bet you were also a Covid expert 2-3 years ago!
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
No but I know DEEZ and clostebol is

Are you illiterate or just trolling. Either way -- again.

The detectability level for this study of clostebol was 0,1ng/ml, and they did 3 experiments:

1: female applied CLOSTEBOL cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied CLOSTEBOL cream to himself once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied herself with CLOSTEBOL cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.

As for the kynetics, the levels tend to have an early peak, and once they reach 1-2ng/ml it goes very slowly down (on experiment 1, the male volunteer went from 30 to 2ng in 5 days, and from 2ng to 0,8ng in the next 6 days).

Sinner's levels of CLOSTEBOL were 0,086ng/ml and 0,076ng/ml, for reference.
Topical administration is a route of drug delivery in which medications are applied directly to the skin. Clostebol acetate is a lipophilic drug. It tends to slowly cross through the epidermis and dermis layers. Once in the hypodermis, it essentially diffuses in this layer where it remains for a prolonged time. Clostebol acetate is therefore applied straight to the site of the injury and can rapidly produce its effects. This route of administration can also result in significant absorption of the drug by the lower layers of the skin and subsequent transfer into the systemic circulation, resulting in distribution in the whole body. Finally, the drug is metabolized and eliminated via the urine, where it can be detected by anti-doping or toxicological analyses.

As I've said many times before, in the time-frame allotted, the spray had to be transmitted via cuts. Not through application on the skin. :rolleyes:
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Topical administration is a route of drug delivery in which medications are applied directly to the skin. Clostebol acetate is a lipophilic drug. It tends to slowly cross through the epidermis and dermis layers. Once in the hypodermis, it essentially diffuses in this layer where it remains for a prolonged time. Clostebol acetate is therefore applied straight to the site of the injury and can rapidly produce its effects. This route of administration can also result in significant absorption of the drug by the lower layers of the skin and subsequent transfer into the systemic circulation, resulting in distribution in the whole body. Finally, the drug is metabolized and eliminated via the urine, where it can be detected by anti-doping or toxicological analyses.

As I've said many times before, in the time-frame allotted, the spray had to be transmitted via cuts. Not through application on the skin. :rolleyes:
Two questions.

1. Can you get clostebol in your system by accident?

2. Was the amount he had low and insignificant in the aspect of athletic enhancement?
 

CHillTennis

Hall of Fame
Yep. The future of this sport is going to be in a lot of trouble. Like Mark McGwire did to baseball. It will never be the same again.
You are quite correct about the clostebol needing to enter Sinner's body, via a cut, in order for it to be picked up in the doping test.

If I had to lean one way or the other, I would tend to believe that he is likely guilty of negligence. For allowing that substance to get into his system.

But he might not be guilty of intentional doping, since it's technically possible for the substance to get into his body, even without his knowlege, via an open wound.

At the very least, his team was incredibly sloppy in the way that they handled the matter.

 

jm1972

Semi-Pro
Most people on this thread don't understand the very simple concept of half-life of a drug... but of course that doesn't stop them from having strong opinions!
 

NattyGut

Professional
You are quite correct about the clostebol needing to enter Sinner's body, via a cut, in order for it to be picked up in the doping test.

If I had to lean one way or the other, I would tend to believe that he is likely guilty of negligence. For allowing that substance to get into his system.

But he might not be guilty of intentional doping, since it's technically possible for the substance to get into his body, even without his knowlege, via an open wound.

At the very least, his team was incredibly sloppy in the way that they handled the matter.

that is totally false. hahah. you guys are truly fail to understand no cut is needed, in this peer reviewed study, there were no "cuts" just creme applied to skin.

1: female applied CLOSTEBOL cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied himself with CLOSTEBOL cream once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was urine tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied herself with CLOSTEBOL cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.

As for the kynetics, the levels tend to have an early peak, and once they reach 1-2ng/ml it goes very slowly down (on experiment 1, the male volunteer went from 30 to 2ng in 5 days, and from 2ng to 0,8ng in the next 6 days).

4. Sinner's levels were 0,086ng/ml and 0,076ng/ml, for reference.
 
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