Jannik Sinner Needs To Be Banned from The Game

[CHillTennis]

that is totally false. hahah. you guys are truly fail to understand no cut is needed, in this peer reviewed study, there were no "cuts" just creme applied to skin.

1: female applied CLOSTEBOL cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied CLOSTEBOL himself cream once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was urine tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied herself cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.

As for the kynetics, the levels tend to have an early peak, and once they reach 1-2ng/ml it goes very slowly down (on experiment 1, the male volunteer went from 30 to 2ng in 5 days, and from 2ng to 0,8ng in the next 6 days).

Sinner's levels were 0,086ng/ml and 0,076ng/ml, for reference.

It takes more time to be absorbed into the skin transdermally. And in this case that's relevant, because he's drug tested on a weekly basis.

Like I said before, I'm not saying that he intentionally cheated. Just that his team was incredibly unprofessional.

 

[Rafa24]

It is absolutely disgusting to see the way that the Talking Heads in the ATP media are covering for this guy!! He failed not one, but two drug tests! They pitch one of the most ridiculous stories, that I've ever heard, about how he managed to get the clostebol into his system in the first place and we're supposed to just accept this story??! Like they're not trying to cover for the guy. When is justice going to be done about this?

who cares. lebron juices and nobody cares.

 

[NattyGut]

It takes more time to be absorbed into the skin transdermally. And in this case that's relevant, because he's drug tested on a weekly basis.

Like I said before, I'm not saying that he intentionally cheated. Just that his team was incredibly unprofessional.

nothing about transdermal absorption or abrasion intrusion is relevant ...

in a peer reviewed study in test results from someone who had creme containing clostebol applied to them, 11 days after application of clostebol creme to skin it appeared in drug test urine samples at 0.8ng/ml.

Sinner's level was 0.086ng/ml.

So basically they found 1/10 of the dose found in individuals who had shaken the hand of someone who had used the cream 11 days before. How is this is even the object of investigation baffles me, there should be a minimum dose to warrant any attention.

Even with the red herring arguments about Sinner, unfortunately, the haters cannot explain his dominance since the incident, and the tennis world has moved on.

 

[CHillTennis]

nothing about transdermal absorption or abrasion intrusion is relevant ...

in the test results, 11 days after application of clostebol creme to skin it appeared in drug test urine samples at 0.8ng/ml ... Sinner's level was 0.086ng/ml.

Yes. The transdermal absorption versus open cut wounds is relevant. Very relevant.

And the time period that we're talking about is six to seven days. Not 11 days.

 

[NattyGut]

Yes. The transdermal absorption versus open cut wounds is relevant. Very relevant.

And the time period that we're talking about is six to seven days. Not 11 days.

It is irrelevant , per se. Sinner's levels were 1/10 the levels of those in the study who shook hands with someone with the creme on their hands 11 days prior. Your argument belies any suggestion Sinner did anything wrong, I don't care if he brushed his teeth with the stuff or used a suppository.

 

[NattyGut]

It takes more time to be absorbed into the skin transdermally. And in this case that's relevant, because he's drug tested on a weekly basis.

Like I said before, I'm not saying that he intentionally cheated. Just that his team was incredibly unprofessional.

Wrong again.

Testing is intelligence-led and risk-based, however it will always be conducted with ‘no advanced notice’. players are tested at random, they are not tested weekly. Sinner could have gone months without a test. Sinner could have been tested five times in one week. There is no rhyme or reason to testing ... Google it and you will see that Roger Federer was tested ONCE in 15 years while at his home in Dubai (updated). ATP follows https://www.wada-ama.org/en/athletes-support-personnel/anti-doping-process pursuant to -- testing-procedure

 

[NattyGut]

Two questions.

1. Can you get clostebol in your system by accident?

2. Was the amount he had low and insignificant in the aspect of athletic enhancement?

you can get it into your system by shaking hands with someone ...

the amount he had was 1/10th of what was registered in studies where people shook hands with someone who had it on their hands.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Google it and you will see that Roger Federer was tested ONCE in 18 years.

All players are tested. Why in the world would Fed be exempt?

Federer tested for doping 29 times in 2019​

Mens Tennis Forums
https://www.****************.com › threads › federer-...

Feb 28, 2020 — Roger Federer was tested for doping 29 times in 2019. Federer stayed clean and never failed a doping test.

 

[NattyGut]

All players are tested. Why in the world would Fed be exempt?

Federer tested for doping 29 times in 2019​

Mens Tennis Forums
https://www.****************.com › threads › federer-...



Feb 28, 2020 — Roger Federer was tested for doping 29 times in 2019. Federer stayed clean and never failed a doping test.

Please get that vile they/ it out of my face.

Interestingly, Federer acknowledged that he can only recall being tested once in 15 years when he's been in residence at his home in Dubai. “I think it varies from place to place that you spend your time in,” he said. “Maybe that's the part I don't like so much: the inconsistency." -- 2018

 

[travlerajm]

Love how we had Reddit posts like this popping up a year ago, before the positive test controversy:

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Interestingly, Federer acknowledged that he can only recall being tested once in 15 years when he's been in residence at his home in Dubai. “I think it varies from place to place that you spend your time in,” he said. “Maybe that's the part I don't like so much: the inconsistency." -- 2018

There is no way around being tested. That is how the system works.
The doping system is a merciless one of strict liability. A positive test equates to guilt. Negligence is a separate issue.
You stated that Fed had been tested once in 18 years. The fact is that Fed has been tested once in 18 years in Dubai.
But he was tested dozens of times every year.

 

[NattyGut]

There is no way around being tested. That is how the system works.
Fed says he was not tested in Dubai but he was tested dozens of times every year.

Maybe a dozen, maybe 2 dozen, but not weekly.

ITF only publishes its data at the end of the year, it is impossible to know how many tests any player has undergone during the first six months of 2018. That's why looking at data for the past five years provides a more complete comparison between Williams and her peers.

In 2017, Williams was tested out of competition by the ITF 1-3 times and USADA three times. (Unlike USADA, the ITF publishes only ranges -- 1-3, 4-6 or 7-plus -- not specific numbers.) In 2014-16, that number was 7-plus for Serena. In 2013, she was tested 4-6 times. Those numbers are virtually identical to her American peers, as well as top players like Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Caroline Wozniacki. Her low 2017 number was likely due to the fact that she was on maternity leave for most of the year and played in only two tournaments.

Some answers to tennis' drug testing questions are right in front of us

When Serena Williams and Roger Federer talk about doping in tennis, people listen. But what do the numbers behind local and international drug tests actually reveal?

www.espn.com

 

[jackson vile]

It is absolutely disgusting to see the way that the Talking Heads in the ATP media are covering for this guy!! He failed not one, but two drug tests! They pitch one of the most ridiculous stories, that I've ever heard, about how he managed to get the clostebol into his system in the first place and we're supposed to just accept this story??! Like they're not trying to cover for the guy. When is justice going to be done about this?

Here’s the thing, his play hasn’t dipped at all at any point after testing positive and with increased testing / observation

He obviously didn’t benefit from PEDs otherwise his level of play would have dropped by now.

He’s only going to continue to get better as he’s trending up as we speak, so I don’t believe he was intentionally using anything to increase performance

However…., he needs to be tested to a higher degree than any other athlete due to this situation and if he ever test positive again, then I think you have to absolutely ban him permanently even if it was someone else’s fault

Three strikes you’re out!

 

[travlerajm]

Here’s the thing, his play hasn’t dipped at all at any point after testing positive and with increased testing / observation

He obviously didn’t benefit from PEDs otherwise his level of play would have dropped by now.

He’s only going to continue to get better as he’s trending up as we speak, so I don’t believe he was intentionally using anything to increase performance

However…., he needs to be tested to a higher degree than any other athlete due to this situation and if he ever test positive again, then I think you have to absolutely ban him permanently even if it was someone else’s fault

Three strikes you’re out!

That’s like saying cyclists obviously don’t dope anymore because they have such strict doping controls now.

 

[NattyGut]

Here’s the thing, his play hasn’t dipped at all at any point after testing positive and with increased testing / observation

He obviously didn’t benefit from PEDs otherwise his level of play would have dropped by now.

He’s only going to continue to get better as he’s trending up as we speak, so I don’t believe he was intentionally using anything to increase performance

However…., he needs to be tested to a higher degree than any other athlete due to this situation and if he ever test positive again, then I think you have to absolutely ban him permanently even if it was someone else’s fault

Three strikes you’re out!

But ... dispelling prior uninformed wild speculation that the drug had to be absorbed through a cut on Sinner's body, below, we must acknowledge that someone could put this all over their hands, shake Sinner's hand, and he could test positive again for clostebol, because:

"Clostebol acetate is a lipophilic drug. It tends to slowly cross through the epidermis and dermis layers of the skin. Once in the hypodermis, it essentially diffuses in this layer where it remains for a prolonged time. Clostebol acetate is therefore applied straight to the site of the injury and can rapidly produce its effects. This route of administration can also result in significant absorption of the drug by the lower layers of the skin and subsequent transfer into the systemic circulation, resulting in distribution in the whole body. Finally, the drug is metabolized and eliminated via the urine, where it can be detected by anti-doping or toxicological analyses.

It has been published that controlled transdermal application of clostebol acetate can produce detectable amounts of metabolites in urine, even after a single exposure [4, 7], [8], [9. Depending on the protocols, metabolite M1 was detectable up to 30–40 μg/L at the peak for more than 10 days. In other studies [4, 7], [8], [9, transfer of clostebol from one subject to another during hand shaking or sexual intercourse was demonstrated. Even transfer during treating a dog with Trofodermin®, also purchased in Italy, was reported and recognized as possible by the sport authorities 10], [11], [12], [13."

 

[Windsor2]

Here’s the thing, his play hasn’t dipped at all at any point after testing positive and with increased testing / observation

He obviously didn’t benefit from PEDs otherwise his level of play would have dropped by now.

He’s only going to continue to get better as he’s trending up as we speak, so I don’t believe he was intentionally using anything to increase performance

However…., he needs to be tested to a higher degree than any other athlete due to this situation and if he ever test positive again, then I think you have to absolutely ban him permanently even if it was someone else’s fault

Three strikes you’re out!

Undeniable truth. Most, if not all, real dopers could not perform at the same level as before they were caught. Sinner, on the contrary, is playing at the same, if not better, level. So, what's the point of doping if you can achieve even superior porformance without?

 

[TennisManiac]

how do you explain his performance thereafter ...

This is exactly what I was thinking about. He tested negative for like the last three tournaments he won. So what is everybody really worried about?

 

[Gary Duane]

This is essentially what I was typing in a long response to the last @Spin Diesel post mentioning me. This is basically it.

Either you give him the benefit of the doubt or you don't. I personally don't. Some do and that's okay.

Also no, that redacted case isn't really the same as the Sinner case the way I see it. It also is a part of the larger conspiracy (that the case was cleared to make way for the Sinner case).

Let's see. No amount of dope will automatically make him the monster he's become. It's primarily his incredible dedication to improvement (and clostebol ofc).

My argument is that giving him the benefit of the doubt is better for Carlos because he needs to establish dominance over Sinner in order to be clearly the best in the world. If he gets there in a vacuum that will always be a knock against him in the future. I see this as playing out a lot like Steffi Graf when Seles was taken out of the picture. I realize it's very different to be stabbed rather than banned for doping but that's not my point. It's going to be bad for tennis in my opinion.

 

[Zardoz7/12]

Look at things from a legal perspective, does incompetence get you off of the hook? No it doesn't.

He should have known better and that's it but does incompetence warrant a suspension? According to WADA yes.

What I hope is that Sinner doesn't receive a suspension and instead is given this warning, if he is caught with any banned substances again he is banned from playing tennis professionally for life. Would that be a punishment which other players would agree with? You do know there's some players on the ATP tour not fond of Sinner over this?

I support him, I think him and Alcaraz are the dominating duo the ATP needs.

 

[JMR]

Look at things from a legal perspective, does incompetence get you off of the hook? No it doesn't.

He should have known better and that's it but does incompetence warrant a suspension? According to WADA yes.

That is indeed the issue WADA is pursuing in its appeal. The CAS will decide.

What I hope is that Sinner doesn't receive a suspension and instead is given this warning, if he is caught with any banned substances again he is banned from playing tennis professionally for life. Would that be a punishment which other players would agree with?

The opinions of other players are irrelevant. As to your suggestion, the problem is that they can't simply invent ad hoc penalties and apply them to Sinner, no matter how much "common sense" appeal the sanctions might appear to have. The TADP prescribes what is due. There are situations in which a reprimand may be given (if that's what you mean by a "warning"), but I don't think the CAS can create a lifetime ban threat that would apply to Sinner alone. Again, the TADP rules set forth when a lifetime ban may be issued.

 

[Arak]

In my personal opinion, he did dope and he is still doping. However, I don’t have a problem with that. If whatever he’s taking makes him so much better physically and potentially an ATG, it would be good for the sport. The only thing I feel uncomfortable with is the perceived injustice to other players. Bans and suspensions are too harsh in my view.

 

[Arak]

Here’s the thing, his play hasn’t dipped at all at any point after testing positive and with increased testing / observation

He obviously didn’t benefit from PEDs otherwise his level of play would have dropped by now.

He’s only going to continue to get better as he’s trending up as we speak, so I don’t believe he was intentionally using anything to increase performance

However…., he needs to be tested to a higher degree than any other athlete due to this situation and if he ever test positive again, then I think you have to absolutely ban him permanently even if it was someone else’s fault

Three strikes you’re out!

What if he is still on something? Clostebol as I understand is not the doping substance but rather a masking agent. He may very well be still following his routine and the Clostebol thing was just a hiccup. In any case, him playing at this level is good for the sport. I wouldn’t take him off his meds either. I remember well when Lance Armstrong was breaking all the records and the publicity and popularity the sport was getting was insane. Imagine if they kept quiet about the doping, how good it would have been.

 

[krmr]

Love how we had Reddit posts like this popping up a year ago, before the positive test controversy:

what is this supposed to prove? try striking the same pose and feel how tense your bicep is.
this is from 2020 btw:

 

[RSJfan]

There is no way around being tested. That is how the system works.
The doping system is a merciless one of strict liability. A positive test equates to guilt. Negligence is a separate issue.
You stated that Fed had been tested once in 18 years. The fact is that Fed has been tested once in 18 years in Dubai.
But he was tested dozens of times every year.

It’s not a criminal matter it’s a disciplinary proceeding brought by a sports organization. A positive test is an “anti-doping rule violation” (aka “doping”). Period. Any additional descriptors intended to disparage your fav Carrot are pure spin.

The various anti-doping rule violations are a matter of strict liability. Degree of player fault for a particular violation is only considered at the punishment stage after an anti-doping violation has been found. The burden of proof lies with the sports organization making the accusation against the Carrot. The burden of proof is to the “comfortable satisfaction of the hearing body” which is “greater than a mere balance of probabilities but less than beyond a reasonable doubt.”

This byzantine system is enforced by WADA thugs that follow players around the globe demanding their precious bodily fluids. Even boy scouts like your fav Carrot can be caught up in it.

A safe room got your fav Serena out of being tested.

How to Build a Safe Room: A Step-by-Step Guide

Learn how to construct a safe room in your homeYour safety and the safety of your family and friends is the top priority. If you live in a part of the country that has extreme weather such as windstorms, tornadoes or hurricanes, it's...

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[FeroBango]

To be fair (and I like you), the hate towards Sinner just seems forced and simply because they are Carlos fans. You and many others were clear Carlos the Shepherd fans before the doping, and were already harsh on him. It was easy for you guys to bring in the hate, and maybe it was even justified.

But let us not pretend this is some moral fight. Life is not black and white and neither is this case. There is ZERO evidence that he gained ANY help from these failed drug tests. The science proves that his story could be true and that it had ZERO help to his game as the amount was insignificant.

It is why we have things like manslaughter instead of murder. Should he be punished for his carelessness? Yes.

But it is ridiculous and comes off as hate from Carlos fans when fans rip Sinner as some Lance doper who is only dominating cause he is doping.

News fact, Sinner is more dominant than Carlos and is currently the best player on the tour right now... oh and he did this while NOT doping.

He did it all while doping and no, I was a non-fan of Sinner before I was a fan of Alcaraz. He's older and has been around the circuit for longer you see.

You don't have to go balls-to-wall in Jannik's dubious defense just because you dislike Tiny a bit more than you'd perhaps like.

I reiterate that this Lance Armstrong of Tennis, as much as I still appreciate the level, is a certified taint on the sport no matter how much the hate for the unrelated Alcaraz may be harbored by some of you on this board.

I feel that you would, as much as I like you too, tear Alcaraz a new one had he been the one taking the masking agent that clostebol is, benefiting from the steroid's usage much longer than it was used.

Sinner primarily benefits from the generational talent he possesses and the discipline. His benefiting or lack thereof isn't more relevant to the discussion than whether or not he's a caught doper. Call him an accidental doper if you will but that's what all dopers say.

Neither of us has a say in this anyway. Sinner may not even be banned and will continue to dominate. Or he'll be back from a ban later and still shine because such is his talent.

 

[FeroBango]

Most people on this thread don't understand the very simple concept of half-life of a drug... but of course that doesn't stop them from having strong opinions!

How can the good boy Sinner dope? All these haters I tell you. Half-life? What half-sleeve?

 

[FeroBango]

Love how we had Reddit posts like this popping up a year ago, before the positive test controversy:

Tnspro21 is a Carlos fan and a Sinner hater hehe.

 

[FeroBango]

Sinner primarily benefits from his talent and discipline. Whether or not the roids helped him is not as relevant as whether or not he has had it in his system, caught pants down.

Simple matters too complex for TTW.

 

[Fabresque]

Whole thing reeks of total crap.

Nevermind the failed test, the fact he was allowed to continue playing whilst they went to an outside party to clear him of wrongdoing. “They” being the ATP. The governing body of men’s professional tennis. We knew nothing of the 2 failed tests, until 5 months later when they conveniently told us “he failed doping twice but we’ve cleared him of wrongdoing.”

Lifting his ban provisionally so he could play in a Masters 1000 event.

Perfectly fine, healthy, then is all of a sudden “sick” for the Olympics (which has very strict anti-doping), then is perfectly healthy back on tour right afterwards.

The whole story of the trainer accidentally rubbing the drug Clostebol on his leg. The fact that the drug even had “DOPING” crossed out on the box and the trainer still thought he could use it around a professional athlete. And ofc the multiple reports of Clostebol’s notorious use in professional sports as a masking agent for more serious PEDs.

And who could forget Sinner infamously firing his trainer… nope, not after he failed the drug test.

AFTER. IT. WAS. MADE. PUBLIC.

And after it was claimed in his report he “Knew exactly when the contamination happened and by who”, when he initially failed the test.

But nope, kept the dude on his payroll until the story was made public, THEN and ONLY THEN he fired him.

And the cherry on top: WADA. They never ever appeal tennis cases. This may be the only time in tennis’ history they’ve appealed a decision.

The whole thing reeks way too much for me to think he’s innocent. He’s as guilty as they come. And I hope WADA find some concrete proof and nail this cheater with a 1-2 year ban like they hope to accomplish.

 

[FeroBango]

Whole thing reeks of total crap.

Nevermind the failed test, the fact he was allowed to continue playing whilst they went to an outside party to clear him of wrongdoing. “They” being the ATP. The governing body of men’s professional tennis. We knew nothing of the 2 failed tests, until 5 months later when they conveniently told us “he failed doping twice but we’ve cleared him of wrongdoing.”

Lifting his ban provisionally so he could play in a Masters 1000 event.

Perfectly fine, healthy, then is all of a sudden “sick” for the Olympics (which has very strict anti-doping), then is perfectly healthy back on tour right afterwards.

The whole story of the trainer accidentally rubbing the drug Clostebol on his leg. The fact that the drug even had “DOPING” crossed out on the box and the trainer still thought he could use it around a professional athlete. And ofc the multiple reports of Clostebol’s notorious use in professional sports as a masking agent for more serious PEDs.

And who could forget Sinner infamously firing his trainer… nope, not after he failed the drug test.

AFTER. IT. WAS. MADE. PUBLIC.

And after it was claimed in his report he “Knew exactly when the contamination happened and by who”, when he initially failed the test.

But nope, kept the dude on his payroll until the story was made public, THEN and ONLY THEN he fired him.

And the cherry on top: WADA. They never ever appeal tennis cases. This may be the only time in tennis’ history they’ve appealed a decision.

The whole thing reeks way too much for me to think he’s innocent. He’s as guilty as they come. And I hope WADA find some concrete proof and nail this cheater with a 1-2 year ban like they hope to accomplish.

You see through this? You're a hater my dude.

 

[FeroBango]

My argument is that giving him the benefit of the doubt is better for Carlos because he needs to establish dominance over Sinner in order to be clearly the best in the world. If he gets there in a vacuum that will always be a knock against him in the future. I see this as playing out a lot like Steffi Graf when Seles was taken out of the picture. I realize it's very different to be stabbed rather than banned for doping but that's not my point. It's going to be bad for tennis in my opinion.

Purely from a Tennis-on-court POV, it would be disastrous to ban Sinner. Carlos needs the benchmark that Sinner is to further improve too.

I disagree with the Seles analogy. AFAIK Carlos being younger is more Seles-like than the older Sinner who's been around for longer.

 

[Gary Duane]

Purely from a Tennis-on-court POV, it would be disastrous to ban Sinner. Carlos needs the benchmark that Sinner is to further improve too.

I disagree with the Seles analogy. AFAIK Carlos being younger is more Seles-like than the older Sinner who's been around for longer.

OK flip it around. Seles was about four and a half years younger. Suppose Nadal had been banned at age 22. So my point is that when the first or second best player in the world is suddenly removed from the stage there is a huge vacuum.

 

[nolefam_2024]

OK flip it around. Seles was about four and a half years younger. Suppose Nadal had been banned at age 22. So my point is that when the first or second best player in the world is suddenly removed from the stage there is a huge vacuum.

Sinner has now reached 2300 elo. Even Andre Agassi never reached it. Great Pete Sampras only ever peaked at 2310. So sinner is just below Pete's peak in 94.


Removing sinner we would have no played in elo 2200 range itself. Forget 2300. Djokovic and Alcaraz are both more than 100 pts below

 

[Arak]

Whole thing reeks of total crap.

Nevermind the failed test, the fact he was allowed to continue playing whilst they went to an outside party to clear him of wrongdoing. “They” being the ATP. The governing body of men’s professional tennis. We knew nothing of the 2 failed tests, until 5 months later when they conveniently told us “he failed doping twice but we’ve cleared him of wrongdoing.”

Lifting his ban provisionally so he could play in a Masters 1000 event.

Perfectly fine, healthy, then is all of a sudden “sick” for the Olympics (which has very strict anti-doping), then is perfectly healthy back on tour right afterwards.

The whole story of the trainer accidentally rubbing the drug Clostebol on his leg. The fact that the drug even had “DOPING” crossed out on the box and the trainer still thought he could use it around a professional athlete. And ofc the multiple reports of Clostebol’s notorious use in professional sports as a masking agent for more serious PEDs.

And who could forget Sinner infamously firing his trainer… nope, not after he failed the drug test.

AFTER. IT. WAS. MADE. PUBLIC.

And after it was claimed in his report he “Knew exactly when the contamination happened and by who”, when he initially failed the test.

But nope, kept the dude on his payroll until the story was made public, THEN and ONLY THEN he fired him.

And the cherry on top: WADA. They never ever appeal tennis cases. This may be the only time in tennis’ history they’ve appealed a decision.

The whole thing reeks way too much for me to think he’s innocent. He’s as guilty as they come. And I hope WADA find some concrete proof and nail this cheater with a 1-2 year ban like they hope to accomplish.

To me, avoiding the Olympic Games was The red flag.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

what is this supposed to prove? try striking the same pose and feel how tense your bicep is.
this is from 2020 btw:

It "proves" certain tennis "fans" believe any selective image showing a player exerting himself must mean they are doping, since they have the expectation (read: self-created desire) to believe all players should be bony with no muscle tone whatsoever.

Out of touch with athletic form, while revealing how intimidated they are by anyone not built like a toothpick (imagine which player they're thinking of).

 

[jackson vile]

That’s like saying cyclists obviously don’t dope anymore because they have such strict doping controls now.

You don’t believe testing is accurate? If that’s the case then we can’t trust anything from the past anymore than we can trust anything from the future.

What if he is still on something? Clostebol as I understand is not the doping substance but rather a masking agent. He may very well be still following his routine and the Clostebol thing was just a hiccup. In any case, him playing at this level is good for the sport. I wouldn’t take him off his meds either. I remember well when Lance Armstrong was breaking all the records and the publicity and popularity the sport was getting was insane. Imagine if they kept quiet about the doping, how good it would have been.

Then let me ask you this, can we trust any of the testing at all for any of the athletes?

And if that’s the case of severe paranoia, then what’s the point?

 

[Troicki’sCat]

I’ll defend Sinner to the end and die on this hill. Regardless if others get punished far worse and he didn’t at all, it’s just straight up not morally right to ban him for something that wasn’t his fault at all. I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this, and it’s fine. I don’t think anyone who had something this unfortunate happen to them should either. It’s just not right what happened to him.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Sinner primarily benefits from his talent and discipline. Whether or not the roids helped him is not as relevant as whether or not he has had it in his system, caught pants down.

Simple matters too complex for TTW.

Nonsense. The matter of whether or not the steroid enhanced Sinner's performance is very much relevant.
The draconian doping system has thrown common sense out the window. Do not be punishing players when there is reasonable doubt of intent and there is no PED effect.
Given that all the experts stated with certainty that there was no PED effect at those trace levels, that fact leans heavily in favour of giving Sinner the benefit of the doubt.

If the experts deemed it to have a PED effect then you could say Sinner needs to be punished in some manner, intentional or not.

 

[Fabresque]

I’ll defend Sinner to the end and die on this hill. Regardless if others get punished far worse and he didn’t at all, it’s just straight up not morally right to ban him for something that wasn’t his fault at all. I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this, and it’s fine. I don’t think anyone who had something this unfortunate happen to them should either. It’s just not right what happened to him.

He bears responsibility for the outcome of the failed drugs tests and that is what WADA is appealing.

 

[Service Ace]

He tested positive twice. That’s all there is to it. He is drug cheat no matter how badly some of you want to overlook it in the name of fandom.

 

[weakera]

Given that all the experts stated with certainty that there was no PED effect at those trace levels,

#1 - Stop citing "experts." It has become a meaningless term and a punchline. You're doing your own argument a disservice.
#2 - No one can state that with certainty.
#3 - You seem to not understand. While the trace levels may not have a PED effect the question is whether those trace levels represent the end of a doping cycle. There is no way of knowing whether the levels 'peaked' at what was found in the drug tests, which is almost certainly, obviously, not the case.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

#1 - Stop citing "experts." It has become a meaningless term and a punchline. You're doing your own argument a disservice.
#2 - No one can state that with certainty.
#3 - You seem to not understand. While the trace levels may not have a PED effect the question is whether those trace levels represent the end of a doping cycle. There is no way of knowing whether the levels 'peaked' at what was found in the drug tests, which is almost certainly, obviously, not the case.

He tested positive in first or second round of Indian Wells.
We all must defer to the independent Tribunal where the experts presented the evidence. There was no PED effect at Indian Wells..
When there is an equally plausible alternate explanation (massage contamination) Sinner must be given the benefit of the doubt.
You seem to not understand that players are tested randomly, with no notice, about once every 10 days.
Sinner was tested 8 days apart at Indian Wells. Both positive. Those random tests could have also been two days apart.
How in the world could Sinner plan his doping? WADA could knock on the door on any day.

Sinner was certainly tested at Australian Open. And he was clean. There was no PED effect in Melbourne.

Giving more weight to the explanation that it was a massage contamination at Indian Wells.

 

[weakera]

We all must defer to the independent Tribunal where the experts presented the evidence. There was no PED effect.

Lol. No. I spit on the tribunal and am capable of my own unbiased judgement.

Try to break free of your submissive, deferential approach and recognize that corruption abounds in society.

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

 

[Bartelby]

You are not required to prove a PED effect, you dunderhead, to be guilty of doping.

If a banned substance is in your body and you test positive with no excuse then you should be banned.

He tested positive in first or second round of Indian Wells.
We all must defer to the independent Tribunal where the experts presented the evidence. There was no PED effect at Indian Wells..
When there is an equally plausible alternate explanation (massage contamination) Sinner must be given the benefit of the doubt.
You seem to not understand that players are tested randomly, with no notice, about once every 10 days.
Sinner was tested 8 days apart at Indian Wells. Both positive. Those random tests could have also been two days apart.
How in the world could Sinner plan his doping? WADA could knock on the door on any day.

Sinner was certainly tested at Australian Open. And he was clean. There was no PED effect in Melbourne.

Giving more weight to the explanation that it was a massage contamination at Indian Wells.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

You are not required to prove a PED effect, you dunderhead, to be guilty of doping.

If a banned substance is in your body and you test positive with no excuse then you should be banned.

While we appreciate your love of totalitarianism we are not in Stalinist Russia and are trying to move away from the draconian doping system of strict liability.
Common sense must be applied. If there was no PED effect and there is a plausible alternate explanation (massage) the defendant must be exonerated.

 

[weakera]

While we appreciate your love of totalitarianism we are not in Stalinist Russia and are trying to move away from the draconian doping system of strict liability.
Common sense must be applied. If there was no PED effect and there is a plausible alternate explanation the defendant must be exonerated.

There is nothing more totalitarian than abandoning critical thinking while deferring to unnamed bureaucratic "experts," and "tribunals," stating that we "we all must defer," you utter hypocrite.

 

[anarosevoli]

The detectability level for this study of clostebol was 0,1ng/ml, and they did 3 experiments:

1: female applied CLOSTEBOL cream 3 times over a day to a male; urine samples were collected for 11 days on the male (peak around 30ng/ml, lowest at 11 days 0,8ng/ml) and 6 days on the female (peak around 20ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 0,4ng/ml). Unknown how long the detectability window is because they didn't collect samples anymore, but they suggest it can extend significantly above the tested window.

2: male applied CLOSTEBOL cream to himself once, another volunteer came into contact for a few seconds with the area where the cream was applied, 1h after the application. Male was tested for 6 days (peak 8ng/ml, lowest at 6 days 1,3ng/ml), 2nd volunteer for 2 days (peak 4ng/ml, lowest 0,5ng/ml).

3: female applied herself with CLOSTEBOL cream once, then waited 30 minutes without washing her hands, and shook hands for a few seconds with 7 volunteers. The volunteers were tested only once, 4-5 hours after the contact, and 6 out of 7 tested positive, with values between 0,5ng/ml and 0,1ng/ml.

As for the kynetics, the levels tend to have an early peak, and once they reach 1-2ng/ml it goes very slowly down (on experiment 1, the male volunteer went from 30 to 2ng in 5 days, and from 2ng to 0,8ng in the next 6 days).

Sinner's levels of CLOSTEBOL were 0,086ng/ml and 0,076ng/ml, for reference.

Study is here -- this thread is garbage.

https://bookcafe.yuntsg.com/ueditor/jsp/upload/file/20220814/1660441857320025918.pdf

Very interesting. Everything matches perfectly with Sinner's explanation.
Sensitivity of tests is too high, a well-known problem, see also here (sorry, in German): https://www.dw.com/de/gedopt-durch-flüchtigen-hautkontakt/a-58295433

You are not required to prove a PED effect, you dunderhead, to be guilty of doping.

If a banned substance is in your body and you test positive with no excuse then you should be banned.

What has your imaginary "no excuse" case to do with this topic?

 

[Bartelby]

You do realise that it would be impossible to show "the PED effect" unless Sinner was immediately incarcerated and subjected to innumerable tests which may not be conclusive.

Presuming of course you had baseline data, so my dunderhead you can't introduce this concept as it's unworkable.

The simplest thing to do is keep the current system and halve all penalties.

While we appreciate your love of totalitarianism we are not in Stalinist Russia and are trying to move away from the draconian doping system of strict liability.
Common sense must be applied. If there was no PED effect and there is a plausible alternate explanation the defendant must be exonerated.

 

[Bartelby]

If Sinner were forcibly drugged or eve accidentally drugged by a third party that would be a valid excuse.

Very interesting. Everything matches perfectly with Sinner's explanation.
Sensitivity of tests is too high, a well-known problem, see also here (sorry, in German): https://www.dw.com/de/gedopt-durch-flüchtigen-hautkontakt/a-58295433



What has your imaginary "no excuse" case to do with this topic?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

You do realise that it would be impossible to show "the PED effect" unless Sinner was immediately incarcerated and subjected to innumerable tests which may not be conclusive.

Presuming of course you had baseline data, so my dunderhead you can't introduce this concept as it's unworkable.

The simplest thing to do is keep the current system and halve all penalties.

Will you just listen to yourself. You say Sinner should be found guilty via strict liability. You also say it is impossible to show the PED effect.
A positive test is a doping violation. PED effect is not relevant.
Why then did the Tribunal spend so much time with experts examining the PED effect of the levels found?


In Sinner's case regarding the positive tests for clostebol in March 2024, there was expert testimony about the performance-enhancing effects of the substance:

1. During the tribunal, several anti-doping experts were called to testify.
2. These experts provided evidence on the nature of clostebol and its potential effects on athletic performance.
3. The consensus among the experts was that the trace amounts of clostebol found in Sinner's system were unlikely to have any significant performance-enhancing effect.
4. They emphasized that the levels detected were consistent with inadvertent contamination rather than intentional use for performance enhancement.