Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by ga tennis, Sep 6, 2011.
No straw man arguments here! At least I don't see them.
I asked you how Macci's boys did in the Clays and the Nationals not who he has worked with at some point. Your answer was still off base as he did not develop all those players. Obviously your argument has two sets of rules. Nothing against Macci at all, but using your methodology, Berger's list of player's is quite impressive too.
Christian Ruud definitely worked with Macci. He used to play a lot of FL tournaments back in the day. Very good player - hit the ball very strong.
I'm sure he did. I'm just saying that Berger has also worked with many great players.
understood, didnt mean it to sound that way, was more remembering Ruud than anything.
No offense taken. I'm just sick of people throwing Berger under the bus. Truly one of the hardest working guys in tennis. And a solid coach.
Who has he developed? I like Jay hell hes been in my home before but I just dont know how he got such an important job.I feel the same way about Patrick.
Lets compare gold balls won by Maccis students verse Bergers students.Then lets compare grandslams won by Maccis students to Bergers.Results dont lie.
Then Richard Williams must be one of the best coaches of all time!
No not really because serena and venus were both coached by macci.It even went to court and the court sided with macci.He worked with them for free and after they started winning richard said f rick and took all the credit.
Yup, Macci personally coached the Williams sisters for 4 years.
TCF, you are on the money again. The only thing I would add, is that the girls were taught Vic Braden type strokes (books and videos- check youtube), and prior to Macci's they worked with a great coach here in CA Kirk Wilson in Lakewood.
So they got some great developmental coaches along the way.
In fact, if you look at venus's serve in particular, that has Kirk's signature all over it as all of his players serve like she does.
Good post Gaucho. I have said it before and I'll say it again, it takes a village. Some coaches are developers and some coaches are better suited to working with a kid that already has game and refining, or teaching strategy.
OK TCF - I'll give you this one. I actually found the web page where you cut and pasted the players names. There's no way you could have spelled all those names correctly otherwise. :wink:
I do think Macci's niche is in developing the younger players.
You seem like a very nice poster, and Kirk is a long time, old school tennis guy...but, sorry, a little exaggeration.
Kirk did tell a local paper he was Venus's first coach but that is quite an overstatement. And he certainly did not develop or influence her serve. Richard has said his early influence were Braden's tapes and the tips recorded by Oscar Wegner for the early ESPN. Besides a few clinics, he coached the girls until Macci.
Looking at their age 7-8 pre Macci video, they were pretty awful and raw technique wise. The serves are quite stiff, they are catching the strokes. They looked like what you would expect, athletic but robotic with stiff strokes from the 1970s! They looked like they were coached by someone just learning the game....and they were.
In fact, Macci went out there after Richard asked him to and hit with them, had them do some drills and was going to leave they were so bad. Then Venus started doing cartwheels and walking on her hands and he said, man, great athletes, and changed his mind. But Macci got them as raw as they could be, and the You Tube video shows that.
He then worked with them for 4 years. They spent 6 hours a day working with him, or an assistant or their dad. After that they went on to work with other coaches, IMG, etc.
No offense, Kirk most likely ran into Venus a few times at a clinic back in the day, offered a tip or two. He never extensively coached her and certainly did not build her serve in any way. She can hit them almost 130 mph, using technique honed and changed many times from age 8-18. Her serve really improved the most after Macci even, she kept growing to 6'1". So coaches made adjustments and the results are what they are.
Even Macci will admit her serve has changed since he left her at age 13. So it is certainly is not the result of someone who gave her some tips at age 7!
It sure does take lots of coaches influences to make a player. And its sweet for an old timer like Kirk to be able to say he once 'coached' Venus, no harm, no foul. But no, her serve certainly does not have him written all over it because it was so primitive back then and changed so much over the many years of her development. Any parts of it that are similar to what he teaches would be far off coincidences as aspects of many serves are simply the same.
TCF, all I am saying about Venus is that her serves is exactly like all of the players Kirk has coached. Chicken and the egg there, I guess. I remember her when she was young because I coached a girl named Kristina Triska at the same time, and they were 1 and 2 in So cal at the time and nobody was even close to them. Of course both girls left for florida, one for Rick, the other for Nick.
In any event, I think Rick is a great developer, although i think depending on parents it sometimes gives you limits on what you are able to do (ask Rick about Roddick's BH or Volley, biggest regrets) but overall I think many coaches never get 1 oz. of credit for the building blocks of players games. (example Larisa Preobrazhenskaya- spartak) Also, I do not think coaches give credit to their own mentors (Braden, Van der meer, wegner, macci,etc.) because that would mean they do not know everything, which as we all know is the biggest weakness of any coach believing you are the one and only (see USTA high performance..lol) I think we agree mostly and your insight is great.
Great post. I have heard good things about Kirk over the years.
He is a huge asset to the tennis community. Every town and tennis center should be so lucky to have a Kirk Wilson.
I watched the Mixed final again last night and the trophy presentation. Gimel asked Melanie "who she would like to thank, anyone from the USTA, for the Wild Card?" He asked Jack who he would like to thank. Period, no prompting. Jack then thanked someone named Carlos, Jay Berger for the coaching all week, then he thanked the USTA for the Wildcard.
Just wanted to set the record straight.
If he prompted Oudin if she wanted to thank anyone from the USTA for the wildcard and then asked Sock who he would like to thank, its pretty much the same thing. The USTA is put in his mind and Berger coached him during the week.
Why the need to bring up the USTA at all? They are adults, if they wanted to thank the USTA for the wildcard or for coaching they would have done so unprompted, or not.
The bottom line is that Berger had zero to do with finding Sock or ever coaching Sock as he developed.
He's not dumb, Sock may need a few more WC's in the near future so best to say what's good for all involved.
The prompting to thank the USTA was for the wildcard and directed to Melanie. Without the Wild Card they would not have had the opportunity to win, obviously.
The u.s.t.a should be thanking melanie and jack for representing American tennis the way they did.Leave it up to them and the players they have truely developed we would have NOTHING!
I'm sure they did. I think the questions from Gimel was a result of his being caught up I'm the moment. I know others feel different like there's some sort of agenda. Not me. Just a happy trophy ceremony.
Of course, this is so obvious and silly. When Oudin had her run at the Open it brought interest and ratings and she was developed by a PRIVATE COACH in GA.
Gimel basically told those kids to thank the USTA. Oudin still has some fans from her last run so her wildcard was a good business decision. Sock EARNED his wildcard by winning the Zoo so it was not given to him. The USTA has NOTHING to do with either player at all.
If Berger injects himself into Sock's doubles practice the kid is naturally going to be nice about it. He would have done just fine had Berger been on vacation in Mexico that week.
Here is usopen.org article about Mchale. Note how much credit was given to her pre-USTA coaches. Sounds like PMAC developed her.
Agree with everything you say. I just think Gimel was caught up in the moment and thought it was pretty cool the American WC team of teenagers wins the US Open Mixed, in the excitement that was one of his random questions. No real motive.
Welcome to the business world. Analysis paralysis.
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