Jeff Salzy put out a new one maybe directed at Z

AnyPUG

Rookie
overall, this one is pretty good on the issues he addresses.....he make the good point about not rotating so much ..... I do it a bit different, but this is another look at the same issue.

Did he read my question on tt? He says don't over-rotate, but what exactly do you check/do to prevent it? He said one thing - keep the head up. You can keep the head up and still over-rotate..

Actually @Dragy illustrated this very well in the other thread - in fact, Salty also does what Dragy mentioned (though he does not mention it).
If you look at his serves where he demonstrates over-rotation, you can see the non-dominant hand getting pulled away a lot earlier than in his correct serve.
It's the non-dominant hand's position that's the check-point imo.
 
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r2473

G.O.A.T.
Did he read my question on tt? He says don't over-rotate, but what exactly do you check/do to prevent it? He said one thing - keep the head up. You can keep the head up and still over-rotate..
“Keep your head up” is his way of saying “keep the power of the serve directed up, at the ball. Not out at the service box”

If you do that, you shouldn’t over rotate
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
Not sure how relevant the straight vs bent hips is to good serving.
Look at this video, at 0:45. His hips are clearly bent (flexed) on contact. He does it on all his serves, but you see it most clearly at 0:45.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Not sure how relevant the straight vs bent hips is to good serving.
Look at this video, at 0:45. His hips are clearly bent (flexed) on contact. He does it on all his serves, but you see it most clearly at 0:45.
Imo Fed has a bit of a waist bend/collapse to compensate for not tossing much into the court. I guess he is concerned about launching into the court too much if his serve doesn't do enough damage.....Sasha Z was collapsing and dropping into his serve a bit as well.
 
Imo Fed has a bit of a waist bend/collapse to compensate for not tossing much into the court. I guess he is concerned about launching into the court too much if his serve doesn't do enough damage.....Sasha Z was collapsing and dropping into his serve a bit as well.
I was under the impression that RF pulled his lower body up to match the upper body at the moment of hitting through the ball. The opposite and equal pull of the lower body allowed his upper body to move faster/hit harder.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Imo Fed has a bit of a waist bend/collapse to compensate for not tossing much into the court. I guess he is concerned about launching into the court too much if his serve doesn't do enough damage.....Sasha Z was collapsing and dropping into his serve a bit as well.
FYI, Fed has one of the highest contact points on tour, comparable to someone around 6'6" so I feel like he is going for height not depth to open angles and keep his 1sv% high.


J
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
FYI, Fed has one of the highest contact points on tour, comparable to someone around 6'6" so I feel like he is going for height not depth to open angles and keep his 1sv% high.


J
Ok, but for me, the significance of 'more forward' instead of 'more up' is about easy power and better control....the only advantage to straight up would be not getting caught "up in the court' for a jammer or tough shot to the corner.
 

AnyPUG

Rookie
Why is the serve considered hitting up and not forward? These two pictures illustrate what's really going on.
Both hand and racket head move up a lot more than move forward (up until the contact point)?? In my estimation, path traveled up is 2.5 times the forward portion.




 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
@AnyPUG

So where's the contact point in that photo?

I guess up, forward or down or whatever is matter of where your mind is focused on.

I focus on where the ball is contacted with the racket face and it feels like I need to hit where the "ls" in Wilson is. (rightie). Right?

So, how you would get the ball to go over the net is to hit a lot of forward force. Of course before that you have to reach up bc the ball is way up above you.



Contact point is the pink area. If I could swing up and get the ball penetrate with pace, I sure would. But I cannot. So I have to find enough forward swing force to hit it over. You guys do the same, Right?
 
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AnyPUG

Rookie
@AnyPUG
I guess up, forward or down or whatever is matter of where your mind is focused on.
I think it's a very precise notation and not whatever the mind is focused on (IMO). The whole point is that you want to hit at the top of your reach, and the only to get there is by "hitting" up. The forward force itself is imparted because of the circular nature of the swing path.
As you can see in the picture, the racket is not moving in a straight line - it's moving around the perimeter of a circle or ellipse.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
This is an actual serve that went in - it's the back of the ball, almost at 80 degrees.



Let's use your picture.


I'll make it super easy to discuss.

Consider the pink point at the middle of the racket as a point of reference. Do you think that point will go up, straight or even down by a few degrees? What do other people in this place think?

 

AnyPUG

Rookie
It was going up until 90, and now it's on a downward path (since it has already reached past 80 from 90). But the point is that it had to go "UP" to 90 first to the highest point of your reach.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
It was going up until 90, and now it's on a downward path (since it has already reached past 80 from 90). But the point is that it had to go "UP" to 90 first to the highest point of your reach.
yeah... that's why I said it's a matter of your focal point. Your focus is on the segment immediately before the CP.

My mind processes the CP.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Why is the serve considered hitting up and not forward? These two pictures illustrate what's really going on.
Both hand and racket head move up a lot more than move forward (up until the contact point)?? In my estimation, path traveled up is 2.5 times the forward portion.




That also follows from the fact that the height a ball reaches on the toss is much larger than the distance thrown into the court. So the racket has to follow in a similar way.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
It was going up until 90, and now it's on a downward path (since it has already reached past 80 from 90). But the point is that it had to go "UP" to 90 first to the highest point of your reach.
yeah... that's why I said it's a matter of your focal point. Your focus is on the segment immediately before the CP.

My mind processes the CP.
Actually the racquet was going up through the whole period of contact which you can see paying attention to the space between the visible upper end of frame and the screen edge:
Racquet face being tilted is not enough to say it's on the downward path.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
So, basically it's seen or felt as up, down, 90 degree, 45 degree or whatever, as long as you achieve the proper configurations as illustrated by Isner, right? Especially the figures in the bottom row.

(I hope the term "whatever" won't trigger AnyPug but here it's appropriate since it's really seen differently by different players. LOL)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Actually the racquet was going up through the whole period of contact which you can see paying attention to the space between the visible upper end of frame and the screen edge:
Racquet face being tilted is not enough to say it's on the downward path.
That's interesting. It could be going up, extremely slightly.

Or, it could be a camera effect. The racket (by rightie serve which this one is) could be slightly going to the right or toward the camera. Objects in camera appear to move up as they get closer to the len.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
That's interesting. It could be going up, extremely slightly.

Or, it could be a camera effect. The racket (by rightie serve which this one is) could be slightly going to the right or toward the camera. Objects in camera appear to move up as they get closer to the len.
That’s possible of course, we don’t know the camera setup. But key is - it’s not going down perpendicular to the stringbed orientation. The ball actually gets some topspin which is seen thanks to “8” drawn on it.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Yeah the 8 figure showing the spin direction indicates where the racket frame is going and it's suggesting that it's going toward the camera.

Anyway, for practical purposes my mind cannot care about this slight up or down (so tiny) but rather the FORWARD component which is seen like the biggest, most obvious thing here. Hence my post #7.



It's like the FH. From this configuration (shown in the Federer pix), the racket head has to first go around then straight to the ball, does your mind process the "around" piece or the "straight" piece?


 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Anyway, for practical purposes my mind cannot care about this slight up or down (so tiny) but rather the FORWARD component which is seen like the biggest, most obvious thing here.
Of course racquet head mostly goes forward from slightly before to slightly after contact. It’s important to understand, that this motion of racquet head is dominantly it’s pivot - over and around the hand. It’s inevitable motion since end of reach is achieved (with forearm-shaft angle in mind). That’s also the reason why it goes towards camera - follows and surpasses hand path pivoting around.

Now why it pivots and not trails behind the hand? Because it was accelerated with an upward swing before end of range of motion was reached. And that arm acceleration, upward swing, throwing motion can and must be performed. While the pivot may be controlled at best, definitely not muscled. Hence all the “swing up” instruction - to keep effort where it belongs and where it is efficient, and avoid muscling where it will hurt.
 

AnyPUG

Rookie
Actually the racquet was going up through the whole period of contact which you can see paying attention to the space between the visible upper end of frame and the screen edge:
Racquet face being tilted is not enough to say it's on the downward path.

It looks down near/after contact to me - the pronation makes the frame appear in the picture after contact.
 
When you play gravity tennis and hit a 30mph serve, you have to it the ball higher than where you contact it so it will make it to the opponent’s service box. When you hit 120+ the ball is heading downward from contact on. The pic with the racquet hitting down on the ball is proof. That person hits their serve with decent pace.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah the 8 figure showing the spin direction indicates where the racket frame is going and it's suggesting that it's going toward the camera.

Anyway, for practical purposes my mind cannot care about this slight up or down (so tiny) but rather the FORWARD component which is seen like the biggest, most obvious thing here. Hence my post #7.



It's like the FH. From this configuration (shown in the Federer pix), the racket head has to first go around then straight to the ball, does your mind process the "around" piece or the "straight" piece?


Around.

J
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Around.

J
Not me. I don't force or bend the "around" aspect but I aim to process the relatively straight segment going through the CP. This relatively straight line points in the direction where I want to send the shot, ie extend into that direction.

My mind process the part in the green box. Not the red box.
 
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AnyPUG

Rookie
Not me. I don't force or bend the "around" aspect but I aim to process the relatively straight segment going through the CP. This relatively straight line points in the direction where I want to send the shot, ie extend into that direction.

My mind process the part in the green box. Not the red box.

For folks looking for an advanced version of forehand, here's a video which teaches the "around" forehand.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Not me. I don't force or bend the "around" aspect but I aim to process the relatively straight segment going through the CP. This relatively straight line points in the direction where I want to send the shot, ie extend into that direction.

My mind process the part in the green box. Not the red box.
Good talk.

J
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Not me. I don't force or bend the "around" aspect but I aim to process the relatively straight segment going through the CP. This relatively straight line points in the direction where I want to send the shot, ie extend into that direction.

My mind process the part in the green box. Not the red box.
If you observe "green box" part of swing from back or front perspective, you'll see strong outward direction, not straight line in the direction of the shot. First hand, then racquet head.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
If you observe "green box" part of swing from back or front perspective, you'll see strong outward direction, not straight line in the direction of the shot. First hand, then racquet head.
And what shape is this "strong outward direction"?


btw you cut off the clip too soon.

the follow thru extending thru the shot is the best part that my mind processes.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
So where it goes across again (to the left) and wraps around?
Not sure I follow your thought process now.

But that's what it is. A thought process. Some mental image that one finds useful for himself. That's the point that you and Jolly don't seem to grasp.

The mental process that I do for myself is I don't get botched down by the many curves or movements of the racket other than the "line" that goes thru the ball.
 

AnyPUG

Rookie
Not sure I follow your thought process now.

But that's what it is. A thought process. Some mental image that one finds useful for himself. That's the point that you and Jolly don't seem to grasp.

The mental process that I do for myself is I don't get botched down by the many curves or movements of the racket other than the "line" that goes thru the ball.
The "universal" tennis stroke is all curves and circles - never a straight line (though straight line would be easy to understand, but no pain no gain).

 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Not sure I follow your thought process now.

But that's what it is. A thought process. Some mental image that one finds useful for himself. That's the point that you and Jolly don't seem to grasp.

The mental process that I do for myself is I don't get botched down by the many curves or movements of the racket other than the "line" that goes thru the ball.
You are 100% right, and it depends on what you are starting with. Just like I might tell one student to stay down and another to push with the legs I can tell one line to the target and another to go around the outside of the ball.

J
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
You are 100% right, and it depends on what you are starting with. Just like I might tell one student to stay down and another to push with the legs I can tell one line to the target and another to go around the outside of the ball.

J
I appreciate your input, especially when you ...use...more than a couple words. :)
 

TennisDawg

Professional
Looking at this serve I'm having a hard time thinking Federer is hitting UP as opposed to hitting FORWARD.

Maybe it's all terminologies or point of view.
The combination of hitting forward and up together creates the momentum to get him off the ground while he goes forward into the court. If he were just hitting forward he wouldn’t come off the ground like he does.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
The mental process that I do for myself is I don't get botched down by the many curves or movements of the racket other than the "line" that goes thru the ball.
so are you focused on the Rh, because that area you reference is where the hand has changed course and is no longer moving out towards contact, but has turned enough to be working back inward
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
That’s possible of course, we don’t know the camera setup. But key is - it’s not going down perpendicular to the stringbed orientation. The ball actually gets some topspin which is seen thanks to “8” drawn on it.
also worth noting that 'up' can be referenced from the body position.....meaning that if you launch up at a 10-15 degree angle up & forward with your lift up towards contact, this body position creates a new perspective for upward orientation. 90 degrees direction from the body/torso orientation could be perceived as 15 degr down, so the idea up serving up 10 degr could be going 5 degree down in reference to the court. This info has help many of my players.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
so are you focused on the Rh, because that area you reference is where the hand has changed course and is no longer moving out towards contact, but has turned enough to be working back inward
Could you explain what you mean by "the hand has changed course and is no longer moving out towards contact, but has turned enough to be working back inward"?

You could link a youtube video and reference a time to show your point.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Could you explain what you mean by "the hand has changed course and is no longer moving out towards contact, but has turned enough to be working back inward"?

You could link a youtube video and reference a time to show your point.
use the '>' button....guess you know that method, right?
here is a vid of Z that gives a good angle.....notice as it rolls into the 1:33 sec that 33rd and 34th sec the 'hand' is moving out to the right. See how it starts under the opponent then crosses the center line as the hand moves out to contact? The hand moves out directly under usopen.org .... then just a touch before (about 3 clicks of the > button) it rolls over to the 1:35th sec the hand starts it's turn back to the left towards the opponent.....notice the RH continues out to contact and hits between the last 1:34 and the 1st click of 1:35 with the hand sweeping more and more left.
the idea is that portion where the hand is moving out to the right towards contact....that portion is a mild arc or considered a mostly linear path....but when the hand starts to arc back to the left, the path becomes a stronger or more pronounced arc, sweeping back across, pulling the racket and managing the centrifugal energy as required for the type of contact.
Did this make it more clear?

 
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