John McEnroe's interview and clay courts?

D

dthomas

Rookie
I just heard John McEnroe's interview from Romanian on the ATP website. He said something about how he wished they had real clay courts in the United States like they have in Europe. I guess according to him the clay courts in the United States aren't really true clay courts. So where does someone find the real clay courts in the United States that John is talking about and what does he mean about the clay courts here??? Thanks!!!

I sometimes play at Pismo Beach on the clay courts, and they are a mix of red and some other kind of gray clay.
 
I think he's referring to the difference between a true clay court, and an artificial soft court surface such as Har-Tru.

True clay courts are red. Green "clay" courts are actually made of a substance called Rubico, and they don't play the same as red clay, and they don't drain as well. All soft court surfaces require a LOT of water to keep them in good condition. Some of the Har-Tru courts in our area (Northern Virginia) have an underwater water circulation system that minimizes the total amount of watering that is needed.
 
Playing on red play is way different than playing on hard-tru. I would say that american green plays much more similarly to a hard court than it does to red clay. Red clay( in my limited experience with it) plays much much slower and the balls bounce higher.
 
gavna said:
Not exactly correct - Har Tru the grey/green stuff is a natural mineral surface - the actual stuff is mined in the Virginia region and is green due to the stone used that is crushed. The American Red Clay also sold and made by the Har Tru folks is also crused stone (red) and comes from a quarry in N Carolina and mixed with some brick. In Europe must of the clay found in France, Spain, Italy, Germany.....is crushed Brick (thus the pink or reddish color).

Har Tru corporate has also created the hydro court system that (for both green and red clay) that installs a water system under the clay and in effect waters the court from the inside out.....allows more playtime and eliminates the need to spray the top.

Har Tru and American Red clay are not artificial - they are true mineral surfaces just different then the finer crushed brick used in Europe. The top layer in Europe stays looser and is not packed down like Har Tru can be - you can add more top dressing to the American stuff BUT that causes you to have more maintance and we all know here in the states having to due any maintance causes moaning and griping from the avg player.
Click to expand...


Good stuff. I think the maintenance side of the equation is on the club, not the player. More maintenance = more staff so they have to charge higher membership and hourly fees.
 
Hitman99 said:
I think he's referring to the difference between a true clay court, and an artificial soft court surface such as Har-Tru.

True clay courts are red. Green "clay" courts are actually made of a substance called Rubico, and they don't play the same as red clay, and they don't drain as well. All soft court surfaces require a LOT of water to keep them in good condition. Some of the Har-Tru courts in our area (Northern Virginia) have an underwater water circulation system that minimizes the total amount of watering that is needed.
Click to expand...

I guess I don't know what kind of green courts you're referring to, but I used to build clay courts during college with Netco in New Hampshire, which builds/services clay courts all over the northeast, and I can guarantee that there's no difference between red and green clay courts, at least a lot of the ones in my neck of the woods.
 
F. Perry said:
I guess I don't know what kind of green courts you're referring to, but I used to build clay courts during college with Netco in New Hampshire, which builds/services clay courts all over the northeast, and I can guarantee that there's no difference between red and green clay courts, at least a lot of the ones in my neck of the woods.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a difference between the red and green clay courts that are built here in the U.S.; however, I do think there is a difference between the red clay courts built here in the U.S. vs. the red clay courts built in Europe. At least that's what I have been told by some who have played on both.
 
gavna said:
When I was growing up in France as a jr we had to brush (rake) the clay courts after each use....it was part of the process taking those 5 min to redress and sweep the court when done including filling in the divits we made. When we moved to the US and I started playing on Har Tru we still were expected to sweep the court after use and if need turn on the sprinkler and rewet the court. I do remember folks complaining about having to sweep the courts....today where I play we have staff that does it for us and I miss having to redress the court after I'm done.
Click to expand...


Our club normally does it for us but sometimes I'll have to sweep the courts and the lines. It does not bother me since I love a fresh clay court. I do wish our club had above ground sprinklers. The below grade watering system has so many problems.
 
tennis_tater said:
I don't think there is a difference between the red and green clay courts that are built here in the U.S.; however, I do think there is a difference between the red clay courts built here in the U.S. vs. the red clay courts built in Europe. At least that's what I have been told by some who have played on both.
Click to expand...

I just watched the French Open interview with Noah Rubin on the USTA website and when asked about how he liked the French Open red clay, he commented that playing on the red clay is like nothing he's played on in the United States.
 
I've played on a Har-tru once that played similar to a european red clay. It was new court that had a deep top layer and was being watered regularly and maintained well. Over time and with a lack of intense maintemance, it seems like most Har-tru green clay courts usually they get hardened and thin and play like a slower asphalt court.
 
rufus_smith said:
I've played on a Har-tru once that played similar to a european red clay. It was new court that had a deep top layer and was being watered regularly and maintained well. Over time and with a lack of intense maintemance, it seems like most Har-tru green clay courts usually they get hardened and thin and play like a slower asphalt court.
Click to expand...


This is a good observation. The thicker the top clay layer combined with a properly maintained court will play quite slow. The City courts I play at have a very thin top layer, sometimes you can even see the aggregate underneath where the underground watering system is malfunctioning. They play almost as fast as a hard court.
 
gavna said:
Both are "clay" but the biggest difference I notice (we spend 8 weeks in France very summer) is that the clay here in France is much "looser" on the top level as well as softer at some clubs.. Makes for a slow, soft and high bouncing surface. The HarTru does not slide as much and is more compact. My 14 yr old who plays ITF events puts it like the red clay in France seems to move under your feet. It takes him about a full week to get his footwork right coming off the hard courts at home.
Click to expand...

That is a good comparison, it takes about a week to find your feet, balance- especially coming into volley & then changing direction quickly...the Hartru is difficult to slide on unless it is really dry but doesn't get as heavy as the Red Clay when wet. I played on both moving from Australia to Germany & it was totally different again going on to the shale courts in the UK.
Red Clay is a Great surface to learn on & is softer on the joints...good reason to build more of them but they are high maintenance as you say & need to be watered & swept. Most clubs, centres prefer low maintenance hardcourts.
 
You would think that with the demand for US "real red" clay courts for player development, that they could make this happen. Perhaps somewhere a Bollettieri- type of facility could be built nothing but these real clay courts. Start with a well respected former player-clay court expert, give him corporate backing, invest in the technology/ship the stuff over from wherever, maintain it as the premier facility for clay and they will come.... I would think. Yes, expensive, but so is a lot of other stuff worthwhile. I dunno, I think it could work.
 
^^^^ I know it would not be a cake-walk, but someone has got to already to thinking this, wouldn't you think?
 
We have mostly green clay courts here in SFL, some red clay - but to clarify something stated earlier, the color of the clay comes mostly from DYE (hence the much-aligned Madrid Blue Clay, which was made of crushed stone bleached white, then dyed blue). The soft, absorbent terra batteau of the French Open is crushed red clay brick. Green Clay courts are made of green-dyed crushed stone. American courts tend to be harder and faster.

Those are the basics, but as a clay afficianado - the clay playing surface's quality is completely dependent on maintenance. Clay courts are high-maintenance (even the hydro-courts, with their auto-watering systems). After a hard rain, clay has to be re-spread or it washes away; also has to be brushed by hand or machine at least once a day. Every few months the courts need to be leveled (sanded down) to prevent dead spots and divots in the base layers.

Here in SFL most courts have automatic watering, otherwise people would be sliding all over the place. My biggest pet peeve is when clubs don't put enough clay down and it's like playing on sandy concrete.

People say clay is easier on the joints - I guess so, but the main difference is the slidiness, and the way the court absorbs so much of the ball's energy on impact. Big serves neutralized; spin exaggerated! Vamos Rafa!
 
I've been playing tennis for 20 years in two different parts of the US and I have never seen a clay court with my own eyes. I think that's the issue, clay courts are virtually non-existent in most of the country.
 
The blue clay at Madrid was beautiful to watch on TV--LOVED IT! I hope they work out the kinks and it's accepted for all clay tourneys. It's supposed to be the same material as red clay but dyed blue. The complaints were about the unevenness of the surface causing catching and not the color. The contrast between the ball and the blue court made it much easier to watch, hi-lighting the ball marks and slides. The reason they changed the hard courts to blue was for the better contrast on TV. As the match ensued, the blue court became a tapestry like watching the stars come out at night. If you ever have trouble sleeping, watch tennis played on red clay on a small screen TV and it will put you to sleep in no time--really tiring on the eyes. I VOTE FOR THE BLUE CLAY--Tiriac knows what he's doing.
 
tennis tom said:
The blue clay at Madrid was beautiful to watch on TV--LOVED IT! I hope they work out the kinks and it's accepted for all clay tourneys. It's supposed to be the same material as red clay but dyed blue. The complaints were about the unevenness of the surface causing catching and not the color. The contrast between the ball and the blue court made it much easier to watch, hi-lighting the ball marks and slides. The reason they changed the hard courts to blue was for the better contrast on TV. As the match ensued, the blue court became a tapestry like watching the stars come out at night. If you ever have trouble sleeping, watch tennis played on red clay on a small screen TV and it will put you to sleep in no time--really tiring on the eyes. I VOTE FOR THE BLUE CLAY--Tiriac knows what he's doing.
Click to expand...

I agree, I hope that they work out the problems with the blue clay because it's the best to watch for spectators. I wonder whether the problem for players wasn't the clay itself, or the color, but the fact that there were dead spots all over the courts. The players claimed they were tripping over holes and divots everywhere - I think the lower layers caused the primary problems. They need to completely resurface those Madrid courts.
 
From my experience, Har-tru is like playing on clay with gravel on the surface. Red clay is much finer, it's not really that similar.
 
TheCheese said:
From my experience, Har-tru is like playing on clay with gravel on the surface. Red clay is much finer, it's not really that similar.
Click to expand...

Gravel is an exaggeration. I've spent most of my life on some form of clay court including both har tru and rubico. The 'clay' granule may be larger on American green clay but it isn't like gravel. Unless your gravel is the size of a #2 pencil point.

Har tru and rubico courts have to be kept wet and rolled regularly to maintain compaction. Otherwise they become 'powdery' and soft. and if they freeze in the winter, they lose compaction and have to be rolled back down in order to recover.

I agree with McEnroe but Americans want the easy way out of everything. So clay courts require too much commitment to use on a large scale. Google red clay courts in America. There are a few interesting tennis centers that feature them. Also check out the Wikipedia entry. All good stuff to read.
 
More red clay is on the way guys. Dallas has some in Rockwall. I just saw them (nice and packed in thick) . In between Denver & Boulder is RMTC a newer huge facility with 8 clay courts, 4 are red. The expensive country clubs seem to have them in CA & Arizona. A Nashville, TN facility just converted to red clay too. I agree har-tru is sometimes like sand on cement. The best courts I have played on were on 77th & Collins in Miami (public courts) and a condo/club in SW FL really thick har-tru. I never been on any in the northeast.

Red clay?? I played on some in Brazil. Yes, the bounces are higher and it does wear you down as it showed big-time in the 2nd set against the club pro. I played in Germany 20yrs ago on red clay but just can't recall how that playing experience went. I remember it was a a nice European vacation with a cute German girl. All in all, it's better on your knees once you reach your 40s. b/c most don't have a powerful anymore, or Serve/Volley every point like Edberg or Rafter anymore.
 
Last edited:
a10best said:
More red clay is on the way guys. Dallas has some in Rockwall. I just saw them (nice and packed in thick) . In between Denver & Boulder is RMTC a newer huge facility with 8 clay courts, 4 are red. The expensive country clubs seem to have them in CA & Arizona. A Nashville, TN facility just converted to red clay too. I agree har-tru is sometimes like sand on cement. The best courts I have played on were on 77th & Collins in Miami (public courts) and a condo/club in SW FL really thick har-tru. I never been on any in the northeast.

Red clay?? I played on some in Brazil. Yes, the bounces are higher and it does wear you down as it showed big-time in the 2nd set against the club pro. I played in Germany 20yrs ago on red clay but just can't recall how that playing experience went. I remember it was a a nice European vacation with a cute German girl. All in all, it's better on your knees once you reach your 40s. b/c most don't have a powerful anymore, or Serve/Volley every point like Edberg or Rafter anymore.
Click to expand...


I played on red clay in Germany for the first time back in August. It is so much slower than Har-Tru. Spin is accentuated but power is blunted. It takes a few more shots to finish a point on the red stuff. Coming to the net most times I just felt helpless. My opponent had so much time to setup and pass me. It was a fun experience though.

Another thing I noticed between the red and the green was how shoes affected the court. After 1 set on the red stuff, it really needed to be brushed again. You can play 3 sets on the green stuff before it really needs to be brushed again.
 
"What's wrong with American tennis?" The USTA always asks.

It always comes back surface (well, there IS another reason we won't get into, here):

Right now - and this is a pretty d@mn constant, 89 of the top 100 ATP players grew up on RED clay.

89%.

Clay courters can bring a clay game to hardcourt - and even grass, but very few hardcourters play well on clay. That's why many Americans avoid the European clay court season altogether.

And real European red plays nothing like American green.
 
Americans are too busy and impatient to build courts that require maintenance like a clay court, too impatient to learn the game on clay as well.
 
I think that people would be happy to learn the game on clay if there were as many clay courts as hard courts. No one wants to pay for the maintenance when you can build a hard court that requires almost none.
 
gavna said:
Not exactly correct - Har Tru the grey/green stuff is a natural mineral surface - the actual stuff is mined in the Virginia region and is green due to the stone used that is crushed. The American Red Clay also sold and made by the Har Tru folks is also crused stone (red) and comes from a quarry in N Carolina and mixed with some brick. In Europe must of the clay found in France, Spain, Italy, Germany.....is crushed Brick (thus the pink or reddish color).

Har Tru corporate has also created the hydro court system that (for both green and red clay) that installs a water system under the clay and in effect waters the court from the inside out.....allows more playtime and eliminates the need to spray the top.

Har Tru and American Red clay are not artificial - they are true mineral surfaces just different then the finer crushed brick used in Europe. The top layer in Europe stays looser and is not packed down like Har Tru can be - you can add more top dressing to the American stuff BUT that causes you to have more maintance and we all know here in the states having to due any maintance causes moaning and griping from the avg player.
Click to expand...

Good explanation. Har-tru is also now offering real European Red clay.
http://hartru.com/har-tru-surfaces/european-red-clay/
 
i think they just need more clay courts, period. even if they are green clay. when the bollieterri school was mostly clay in the early 80s it helped produce multiple french open champions and clay court winners
 
I can see why Americans struggle on the red stuff. They all play these power games that the red clay just laughs at.
 
When I saw the Davis Cup here in mpls back some yrs ago w/ Agassi/Courier. Mac/Sampras - they brought the red clay indoors and it worked great, we beat Sweden easily.
 
Anyone here ever play on Clay-Tech, that hybrid court surface consisting of carpet and clay? (Hey, it comes in 2 colors, red or green!)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Super Seniors International Tournament in Turkey
Replies
0
Views
871
dthomas
D
D
red clay vs. green clay clay court tournaments?
Replies
22
Views
18K
DSH
DSH
D
Clay Court Tournaments
Replies
8
Views
2K
Rob_C
R
D
red clay courts???
Replies
3
Views
2K
Deuce
Deuce
D
Grass and Clay
Replies
4
Views
819
D Wilson
D
Back
Top