Jolly is looking for a new string.

Just to help you understand the nuances of this, let me show you what everyone is talking about. Here's your original quote:

<<You have 25 custom made rackets? Are you a pro or a top level collegiate player? Cuz, if not, ure really dumb for spending a bunch of money on all that... Anyways i would reccomend Gamma Zo tour 17 rough... it's very durable>>

Now try taking out the part in red:

<<You have 25 custom made rackets? Are you a pro or a top level collegiate player? Anyways i would reccomend Gamma Zo tour 17 rough... it's very durable>>

That says the same thing, and gives just as much information without insulting a person you've never met before (whom many people here like and respect) in your first post. That kind of thing would be my recommendation for future posts. As a general rule, a 15-year-old kid insulting experienced, friendly people whom he has never met is not going to go over well in your life. And usually, asking yourself whether you'd say it directly to someone's face if you were there in person might be a good barometer. I'm guessing my edited version, in addition to providing just as much useful info, is also closer to how you'd say it to someone in person.

So moving on, thanks for your post, and trying to help a bit. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure J011y has tried Zo Tour already and found it not to last any longer than his current combo, but it's still good to have input.

Stop picking on Kick Serve, he's trying to be helpful by informing Jolly that he's being dumb.

I've tapped people in the shoulders in NYC plenty of times and said "hi, I was walking behind you and notice your poor choice of footwear. You are stupid for paying that much money on a pair of uncomfortable shoes".

They usually thank me for pointing out the errors of their ways. Usually, they would try to give me some money but I tell them, anything less than a Benjamin would be better served giving it to the next homeless person. A few times, they became upset, rude and defensive. I hadto resort to tasering them but these incidents are rare. Twice, they tried to set me up with their daughters.
 
Also after actually scrolling up on this page i realize that Jolly made comments and i would like to formally apologise to him. however, I still believe that everyone who has made a comment regarding my origional one is overeacting. I am not some sort of jackass child who points out the everyone's fault's when given the oppurtunity. I merely made an observation, and the rest of you took it from there.

I agree. Your comments have sparked a bizarre overreaction. Especially given you could be forgiven in believing that most posters on this site do much worse on a daily basis.

Also your observation is far from off base, even though the wording could have been more constructive and I suppose it's not the topic in hand.
 
Kick Serve,

Welcome to the brutal world of TW Forum.

Fed cried not because he lost to Nadal, he cried because he dreaded going to this forum and reading the posts about him.

Likewise, Nadal's the knee pain, are also from this board's criticism. He would read the negative comments and he would strike his knees with his racket, while picking his tiddy whities with the other.
 
Kick Serve,

Welcome to the brutal world of TW Forum.

Fed cried not because he lost to Nadal, he cried because he dreaded going to this forum and reading the posts about him.

Likewise, Nadal's the knee pain, are also from this board's criticism. He would read the negative comments and he would strike his knees with his racket, while picking his tiddy whities with the other.

Haha, yes, welcome to the world of tennis fantasy, where tweaking a string tension and changing to a different head size can make you the champion of the world...
 
I saw Andy Murray break a set of strings at Wimbledon against Roddick last week. Murray's sticks are in the swingweight neighborhood of 400 - 420.

He lost the point, which is what happens 99% of the time when you break a string... which is why (like rockbox says) they change rackets at least every other set.

One time I actually hit an ace when i string snapped.

It landed really short....
:D
 
Dude, i'm a 15 year old boy giving his opinion that you are all blowing way out of proportion... I just don't see the need for that many rackets, don't judge me based on one comment that i made.

You just have to remember that not all the poster here are 15yo and so you should try to be as respectfull as you can because you could be talking with a Senior citizen with a lot experience or a professional stringer, etc. Also eventhough it may not be the majority some people on this forums can play tennis and some are actually really good so you should be carefull with to whom you call dumb, you WILL find a lot of dumbs though, do not worry eventually you will find out who is who.
 
Stop picking on Kick Serve, he's trying to be helpful by informing Jolly that he's being dumb.

I've tapped people in the shoulders in NYC plenty of times and said "hi, I was walking behind you and notice your poor choice of footwear. You are stupid for paying that much money on a pair of uncomfortable shoes".

They usually thank me for pointing out the errors of their ways. Usually, they would try to give me some money but I tell them, anything less than a Benjamin would be better served giving it to the next homeless person. A few times, they became upset, rude and defensive. I hadto resort to tasering them but these incidents are rare. Twice, they tried to set me up with their daughters.

This isn't what isn't what i'm trying to say at all but anyways, moving past that i would have to say that if you are a big string breaker, try gosen og-sheep micro 16 in the mains, with kirschbaum spikey shark 16 in the crosses, i used this combo and it lasted me two months before i broke it and i'm a fairly big string breaker.
 
This isn't what isn't what i'm trying to say at all but anyways, moving past that i would have to say that if you are a big string breaker, try gosen og-sheep micro 16 in the mains, with kirschbaum spikey shark 16 in the crosses, i used this combo and it lasted me two months before i broke it and i'm a fairly big string breaker.

I think that maybe KickServe was trying to say that Jolly is a bit extravagant; but at the same time, that's Jolly's perogotive.
 
Give it up. Pro switch sticks at least once a set and they don't hit that many balls because many balls don't get put back in play because they are hitting away from each other. If pros just rallied back in fourth I doubt most strings would last more than 30 minutes of hard hitting.


30minutes? I don't think so even for a pro. The reason they switch alot is to maintain tension, since poly loses it so fast. In federers case though yeah, with gut in the mains and alu in the cross i can see that breaking after a couple sets or sooner.
 
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I saw Andy Murray break a set of strings at Wimbledon against Roddick last week. Murray's sticks are in the swingweight neighborhood of 400 - 420.

He lost the point, which is what happens 99% of the time when you break a string... which is why (like rockbox says) they change rackets at least every other set.


True, it all depends on the player. Some like switching often, but i imagine some like the playability of broken in strings. One point can be big but i don't think a string breakage would ever determine a match or one point.
 
try gosen og-sheep micro 16 in the mains, with kirschbaum spikey shark 16 in the crosses

That is also less durable than the setup I am switching from because I break it in an hour. . .

While I appreciate your effort to help, if you don't have first, or second hand knowlege of someone who breaks strings at a similar rate as me, I don't see your advice as being helpful.

If something lasts you two months, and I break it in 40 mins, I don't really see how anything you compare could be of value.

J
 
I don't consider myself a hard hitter or with lots of topspin.

I think your stringing could be the problem. I consider myself a pretty big hitter, and i have to cut strings out before they break. Usually 10-15 sets..

I would be willing to place a wager that U2HG, and Dennis have vastly (I doubt that vastly is an appropriate enough word, but I am unsure if colossally is a real word) different definitions of "Big Hitter".

But since U2HG will never say where he is from, or hit with me, or one of my friends, the world will never know.

J
 
Jolly, I know this has been said numerous times in this thread and in others, but if you string at such a high tension, you kind of have to accept the fact you are going to chew up strings left and right. Sampras accepted the fact, and according to his book that was one of the reasons he brought Ferguson aboard full-time.
 
Jolly, I know this has been said numerous times in this thread and in others, but if you string at such a high tension, you kind of have to accept the fact you are going to chew up strings left and right. Sampras accepted the fact, and according to his book that was one of the reasons he brought Ferguson aboard full-time.

DonBot, I know this has been said numerous times in this thread and others, but if I string at lower tensions than I do now, I break strings faster.

J
 
Are you not willing to use anything other than a poly? Because if you aer then you might have trouble playing wih anything durable giventhe rate at which you break strings... if you can create your own power ( i'm assuming you can) then why not switch to natural gut or kevlar?
 
DonBot, I know this has been said numerous times in this thread and others, but if I string at lower tensions than I do now, I break strings faster.

J

I know, I just never really understood why that happens. I am at a loss to explain how stringing a poly tighter gives it more longevity. My experience has been it notches way quicker and then breaks.........but got to go with what what works I suppose :•)




Not too mention I found I have the confidence to swing alot harder with tighter strings, I tend to hit alot more topspin with lower tensions, which is admittedly hard on gut and multis, but doesn't seem to punish poly on the same manner. But I think no matter what you use you are never going to get 10-15 hours out of a set of strings.
 
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I know, I just never really understood why that happens. I am at a loss to explain how stringing a poly tighter gives it more longevity. My experience has been it notches way quicker and then breaks.........but got to go with what what works I suppose :•)




Not too mention I found I have the confidence to swing alot harder with tighter strings, I tend to hit alot more topspin with lower tensions, which is admittedly hard on gut and multis, but doesn't seem to punish poly on the same manner. But I think no matter what you use you are never going to get 10-15 hours out of a set of strings.

When I string looser, the ball leaves at a higher trajectory, and so I have to hit with more top in order to maintain the same depth.

Which wears out the strings faster.

As far as the confidence to swing harder, it isn't really an issue with me. If I want to swing easy, I swing easy, if I want to swing medium, I swing medium, if I want to swing hard, I swing hard. If I want to hit loopy shots, or flat drives, or slices I do. And the ball is either going to go in, or it isn't, no point in worrying about it.

I am not looking for 10-15 hours, I understand that is impossible.

I am looking for 2-3 hours of good hard hitting, or 4+ hours of moderate rallying.

If I could get 1 singles match, and 2 hours of practice out of a stringjob, that would be perfectly acceptable.

My budget allows for 4-5 stringjobs per week in the outdoor season, 2 per week in the indoor season.

Under 200 stringjobs/year is my target.

J
 
I think the topspin versus trajectory thing is sort of a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you don't, at least in Jolly's case. For MOST people, the extra depth just means they hit less or try to loop their shots with slightly more topspin, rather than using brute-force topspin to hit it as hard as possible, right over the net. Hence why his strings break so easily at either tension, while that is not the case with most players.

FWIW, I've read that the increase in trajectory when you use a lower tension is all about the ball staying on the racquet longer and being affected by your swing path more, *not* by any difference in the amount of stringbed deflection (and this is coming from the RSI site).

Now, in this was anyone else I would suggest switching to a racquet that's about an ounce lighter and using a lower tension (like 65 pounds or less)... but that's not going to happen, so disregard that.
 
When will people learn that age isnt an excuse D: Best of luck with the strings Jolly, nothing I can say hasnt been said here already :P
 
When I string looser, the ball leaves at a higher trajectory, and so I have to hit with more top in order to maintain the same depth.

If the ball leaves at a higher trajectory, aren't you going to get more depth as a consequence? Wouldn't more topspin lessen the depth on the shot?

What am I missing?
 
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If the ball leaves at a higher trajectory, aren't you going to get more depth as a consequence? Wouldn't more topspin lessen the depth on the shot?

What am I missing?

I think jolly is saying he has to put alot more work on the ball to get the same depth as he would have at higher tensions, like nanshiki suggested I think it dwells longer too at lower tensions, which kind of enhances this effect, although if I remember one of the physics of tennis books correctly we are talking about fractions of seconds even at tensions like 45-50 lbs.
 
If the ball leaves at a higher trajectory, aren't you going to get more depth as a consequence? Wouldn't more topspin lessen the depth on the shot?

What am I missing?

Nothing, the looser string adds depth, the more topspin takes it away.

So I need to hit with more topspin with the looser string, in order to make the ball land in the same spot it does with the tighter string.

J
 
Nothing, the looser string adds depth, the more topspin takes it away.

So I need to hit with more topspin with the looser string, in order to make the ball land in the same spot it does with the tighter string.

J

Ah... Ha.

I guess I was confusing "depth" and "deep".

So yeah... Good stuff. ;)
 
I would be willing to place a wager that U2HG, and Dennis have vastly (I doubt that vastly is an appropriate enough word, but I am unsure if colossally is a real word) different definitions of "Big Hitter".

But since U2HG will never say where he is from, or hit with me, or one of my friends, the world will never know.

J

I disagree, I believe Ultra when he said that he's a pretty big hitter.

I can tell you that one person described my shots as moonballs and last time I hit with J. (you were watching) she said that my shots are slower than the 4.5 woman player who plays a counter punching game. With these descriptions, I can say that I'm not a big hitter. My regular hitting partner is a 4.0 woman. How can I be a big hitter?
 
Have you no mirror at home?

J

I have one full length. I stand in front of it and say "How u doin?" Never worked. I never gave myself my number. I think I have to suck in my gut more, if I want to impress myself. Mabye I could wear a muscle shirt and push the fat on my arms to make it look like I have guns.
 
Well one thing I've learned about string breaking is it depends on the opponent too. I hit a really heavy ball off both sides and serves are heavy as well. When I hit against better players -- my best friend was a all american at an SEC school (we're both 28 now, so it wasn't that long ago) -- my strings last me about 2 hours max. When I'm playing 4.0's or 4.5's, my strings last me around 6 hours. So, from my experience, it has a lot to do with the kind of ball being hit at you as well.

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in there.
 
Nothing, the looser string adds depth, the more topspin takes it away.

So I need to hit with more topspin with the looser string, in order to make the ball land in the same spot it does with the tighter string.

J

Or you could step in a little bit and catch the ball off the rise a bit more.

Adjusting string tension is one of many ways to adjusting trajectory/depths on the tennis ball. You just have to go with whatever suits your game. Looser strings also means you have to be a little more technically sound to keep control of the ball. Basically, what you're saying is you have to hit the heavy top spin to keep control of the ball -- you tend to lose control with looser strings.

Which is fine, nothing wrong with that. Just a different way of analyzing your game and how you hit the ball.
 
Thanks a lot Jolly.....because of this thread my curiousity about ALU Rough went through the roof and now I'm currently trying it out and loving it in just about every aspect. Luckily I don't break strings as fast as you do so it might be more reasonable for me.
 
Also after actually scrolling up on this page i realize that Jolly made comments and i would like to formally apologise to him. however, I still believe that everyone who has made a comment regarding my origional one is overeacting. I am not some sort of jackass child who points out the everyone's fault's when given the oppurtunity. I merely made an observation, and the rest of you took it from there.

I have to say it takes a real man to step up and apologize in such circumstances. Many posters wouldn't have done so. You may only be 15, but I think you're gonna be okay. Very impressive, and welcome to the forums.
 
I would be willing to place a wager that U2HG, and Dennis have vastly (I doubt that vastly is an appropriate enough word, but I am unsure if colossally is a real word) different definitions of "Big Hitter".



So you think you are a big hitter? Or just try to hit big by swinging hard as you can regardless of outcome? A big hitter gets good pace on the ball without too much effort, and if he really wanted to could crush the ball, if that was the goal, it would be easy.. In tennis though the odds of getting those shot's in are not good. Think agassi before he tamed his shots and made them more control oriented... I remember in a leauge match hitting a return of serve that i said to myself i'm just gonna hit this mofo as hard as i can, and hit basically right at the server down the middle, and all he did was watch it go by him without even reacting, and just gave me a confused stare. And that was with a ps85..

Anyways, where you a 'big hitter' in baseball jolly? If you where just a base hit hitter you probably are not a big hitter in tennis. Sure there a skinny guys that are not that strong who can hit hard, but it's probably a combination of racquet tech, and just swinging hard as they can. Good technique helps too. But just swinging hard as you can every point does not make you a big hitter. It's how effortless you can hit big..
 
So you think you are a big hitter? Or just try to hit big by swinging hard as you can regardless of outcome? A big hitter gets good pace on the ball without too much effort, and if he really wanted to could crush the ball, if that was the goal, it would be easy.. In tennis though the odds of getting those shot's in are not good. Think agassi before he tamed his shots and made them more control oriented... I remember in a leauge match hitting a return of serve that i said to myself i'm just gonna hit this mofo as hard as i can, and hit basically right at the server down the middle, and all he did was watch it go by him without even reacting, and just gave me a confused stare. And that was with a ps85..

Anyways, where you a 'big hitter' in baseball jolly? If you where just a base hit hitter you probably are not a big hitter in tennis. Sure there a skinny guys that are not that strong who can hit hard, but it's probably a combination of racquet tech, and just swinging hard as they can. Good technique helps too. But just swinging hard as you can every point does not make you a big hitter. It's how effortless you can hit big..


Dude, go away.
 
dude..what i'm waiting for is what jolly's going to decide on.THE SUSPenSE.....

JOlly like you said..
1. Try kevlar...**** stuff though.
2. Wilson Enduro Gold..cheap stuff 960' reel 30 bucks..plays ok for first few hrs..then crap..i'd try it.
3. Unique Tourna Poly Big Hitter String 16
4.ISOSPEED IsoTour 16 String Reel - $39.99

Jolly, considering your skill, and your tendency to break strings, those are preferably the safest ones that i find. Worse to worse scenario you can always hybrid the enduro gold with kevlar..to make the crap a little less crappier? But those are the best or most likely you can tell where you usually break your strings, the crosses or the mains, and maybe hybrid one of those string up above with the rough, maybe give it a shot who knows? But those are the options that i find for you, gave it my best bud!
 
Jolly, considering your skill, and your tendency to break strings, those are preferably the safest ones that i find. Worse to worse scenario you can always hybrid the enduro gold with kevlar..to make the crap a little less crappier? But those are the best or most likely you can tell where you usually break your strings, the crosses or the mains, and maybe hybrid one of those string up above with the rough, maybe give it a shot who knows? But those are the options that i find for you, gave it my best bud![/QUOTE]

Considering your string breaking "skills" this might be your best options unless you have found some miracle string that just can't break. If so tell me i might need it.
 
So you think you are a big hitter? Or just try to hit big by swinging hard as you can regardless of outcome? A big hitter gets good pace on the ball without too much effort, and if he really wanted to could crush the ball, if that was the goal, it would be easy.. In tennis though the odds of getting those shot's in are not good. Think agassi before he tamed his shots and made them more control oriented... I remember in a leauge match hitting a return of serve that i said to myself i'm just gonna hit this mofo as hard as i can, and hit basically right at the server down the middle, and all he did was watch it go by him without even reacting, and just gave me a confused stare. And that was with a ps85..

Anyways, where you a 'big hitter' in baseball jolly? If you where just a base hit hitter you probably are not a big hitter in tennis. Sure there a skinny guys that are not that strong who can hit hard, but it's probably a combination of racquet tech, and just swinging hard as they can. Good technique helps too. But just swinging hard as you can every point does not make you a big hitter. It's how effortless you can hit big..

Well, I believe that you are a big hitter. You mentioned league play. Are you still in a league? Are you near NY or CA? I consider myself a control/touch player. I would imagine that if we hit, the only recourse I would have is to try to keep the ball deep and take the pace of the ball to lessen the effect of your power. I don't want to get blown off the court. I would probably hit a lot of slices off both wings.

I myself hope to be ready to play mixed doubles 8.0 by next year or the following year.
 
So you think you are a big hitter? Or just try to hit big by swinging hard as you can regardless of outcome? A big hitter gets good pace on the ball without too much effort, and if he really wanted to could crush the ball, if that was the goal, it would be easy.. In tennis though the odds of getting those shot's in are not good. Think agassi before he tamed his shots and made them more control oriented... I remember in a leauge match hitting a return of serve that i said to myself i'm just gonna hit this mofo as hard as i can, and hit basically right at the server down the middle, and all he did was watch it go by him without even reacting, and just gave me a confused stare. And that was with a ps85..

Anyways, where you a 'big hitter' in baseball jolly? If you where just a base hit hitter you probably are not a big hitter in tennis. Sure there a skinny guys that are not that strong who can hit hard, but it's probably a combination of racquet tech, and just swinging hard as they can. Good technique helps too. But just swinging hard as you can every point does not make you a big hitter. It's how effortless you can hit big..

Wow!!! Are you serious? Jolly has posted video of himself playing, has played with anyone from this board willing to come to the new york area, and has a very good rep on this board. From what I have read on this board, Jolly was a very good junior player (good enough to get free equipment) that blew out his shoulder. This prevented him from furthering his tennis career before it began. He recently started playing tennis again. He has a big serve clocking around 120 mph. He is slighty OCD when it comes to his equipment and doesn't like to change. He finds what works and concentrates on his game. I have no reason to believe that he is exaggerating especially with so many people on this board that has actually hit with him.

However, I have hard time understanding your obsession with Jolly and his abilities. Does his ability to break string somehow change your self perception? Does it make you question your manhood. Maybe you don't hit as hard as you thought you did? You could post a video of yourself. That way we can see what a real big hitter looks like.

BTW, for the record, I suck at tennis. I'm 5'7" and 50 pounds overweight. I hit the ball pretty hard but I don't ever break strings including natural gut. Maybe its because I utilized the entire face of the racquet. I'm ok when I can get to the ball but its not hard to hit away from me. I'm also legally blind in one eye and have thinning corneas so I have no depth perception at all.
 
Jolly, considering your skill, and your tendency to break strings, those are preferably the safest ones that i find. Worse to worse scenario you can always hybrid the enduro gold with kevlar..to make the crap a little less crappier? But those are the best or most likely you can tell where you usually break your strings, the crosses or the mains, and maybe hybrid one of those string up above with the rough, maybe give it a shot who knows? But those are the options that i find for you, gave it my best bud!

Considering your string breaking "skills" this might be your best options unless you have found some miracle string that just can't break. If so tell me i might need it.[/QUOTE]

dude read...i considering your skill, meaning his topspin, his power, etc. and then i said your tendency to break strings....
 
Wow!!! Are you serious? Jolly has posted video of himself playing, has played with anyone from this board willing to come to the new york area, and has a very good rep on this board. From what I have read on this board, Jolly was a very good junior player (good enough to get free equipment) that blew out his shoulder. This prevented him from furthering his tennis career before it began. He recently started playing tennis again. He has a big serve clocking around 120 mph. He is slighty OCD when it comes to his equipment and doesn't like to change. He finds what works and concentrates on his game. I have no reason to believe that he is exaggerating especially with so many people on this board that has actually hit with him.

However, I have hard time understanding your obsession with Jolly and his abilities. Does his ability to break string somehow change your self perception? Does it make you question your manhood. Maybe you don't hit as hard as you thought you did? You could post a video of yourself. That way we can see what a real big hitter looks like.


Relax, i'm just having fun with jolly. I'm not trying to make myself look better than jolly or anyone else. I could care less about that on the internet.

And being a big hitter really don't mean squat in tennnis, that's the beauty of tennis, you don't have to be that strong to play tennis well, tennis is all about technique, and fitness.. It's not about how hard you hit. I tend to think i'm a realist, and when something is a fantasy i try to step in and say it's not. Not for the sake of argument, but for the sake of reality. Like jolly has said he is stubborn, but if he came to me for lessons, i would tell him straight up, you need to work on better technique, footwork, being smooth, NOT trying to hit the ball as hard as you can, and doing 360's in the process, seriously, it's not impressive, and are just hindering your game, body, and tennis growth. Take it from me, trying to hit the ball hard, serve hard everytime, can have consiquences when you get older. Just being able to play without pain is something to consider. But jolly must love the idea of being this guy who can hit the cover off the ball and impress people by owning many racquets, and breaking strings so fast. WHile he can fool alot of players, maybe even himself, jolly know where he is at his level. Maybe he is content on losing to 3.5-4.0 guys, and maybe playing a great match against a really good player once in a while, that's how i see it anyway. Being stubborn will not help you improve, listening and trying to improve will. Whether it be me or someone else, but just don't claim to be a big hitter, string breaker, and still lose to a 3.5, because it's foolish to be even talking about a string change that your poly is breaking so fast. Jolly's priorities are vastly confused if a string change is anything important...imo. And not trying to be a d!ck which to many it will seem, trying to help.. But it will comer down to stubborness, and classic internet i know more than you, case closed.
 
Well, I believe that you are a big hitter. You mentioned league play. Are you still in a league? Are you near NY or CA? I consider myself a control/touch player. I would imagine that if we hit, the only recourse I would have is to try to keep the ball deep and take the pace of the ball to lessen the effect of your power. I don't want to get blown off the court. I would probably hit a lot of slices off both wings.


The guys who give me the most trouble are the opposite of power players. I like to camp right in the middle of the baseline and make my opponents run like crazy :) It's those guys who get to everything and gets all kinds of shot's back that frustrate me. I will eventually make a error. I'd rather play against a power player who takes risks.. Jolly would be right up my alley. He better be able to rally though and be consistent if he was to beat me :)
 
The guys who give me the most trouble are the opposite of power players. I like to camp right in the middle of the baseline and make my opponents run like crazy :) It's those guys who get to everything and gets all kinds of shot's back that frustrate me. I will eventually make a error. I'd rather play against a power player who takes risks.. Jolly would be right up my alley. He better be able to rally though and be consistent if he was to beat me :)

I have to agree -- the freakin' consistent junk ballers are the worst to play against. They really really test a person's technique -- I have to do the same thing and step inside the baseline and really try to take the ball off the rise. Against off pace junk, it's difficult to put any pace on the ball and control it if not taking it early. Another thing I do is be more aggressive and finish points off at the net. I completely see where you're coming from on the off-pace control junk ball players.
 
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