Jolly's Kick Serve Challenge

Kevo

Hall of Fame
Thanks @J011yroger. Got my prize today!

I'm going to try out my new lucky hat tomorrow during dubs. If I lose I'm going to send it back. :p

I'll have to think about what I want to try the Supersense in. I'm a little surprised they say it's close to gut on the package. I looked it up on TWU and it has it listed as 210 on stiffness. That's a bit stiffer than my usual poly, but it might be perfect for my Rossi F200. I think that frame may be softer than my wood frame, and it feels heavier, so a stiffer poly would probably work just fine in it.
 

Kevo

Hall of Fame
The @J011yroger lucky hat worked like a charm. Won all three sets today in our round robin doubles. Hit 3 of 5 attempted aces and got many errors off the kick which is what I used mostly. That was serving from the sunny side too.

On top of the good serving day I hit the smoothest most controlled drop shot volley I have ever hit. It was off a cross court drive and I absorbed it and dropped just 3 feet over the net with no forward momentum. They didn't have a chance at it.

The groundstrokes were working as well. Had at least a handful of head high loopers that got left before dropping in. A few I hit were swatted for clean winners that they couldn't get to.

So thanks again for the hat. I'd consider bids if anyone wants to purchase some of this amazing luck. It was so good I think the bidding will start at $500. :)
 
was messing with this serve again trying to make a better vid. Its ok. But thanks to @Curious that serve is ruined for me. Here are the questions:

1. How do you make it hit the back fence?
2. I was playing with hitting really loose like the racquet coming out of the hand loose. Is that the deal? I don;t have a death grip but its not a loose as I was hitting today. Seemed to get more spin...
3. There never seems to be any twist that shows up on vid. How do you capture that?
 
@J011yroger same here. Very kind of you! Cheers

TW should drop you a sponsorship.

The other thing this did was get me out w the camera and get me viewing/working on my serve. As a result, I’m now engaging a bigger stretch and deeper drop and getting more mph.
Its shrewd. When he humuliates us all from the vids we take then its that much easier for us to buy his new training courses. And the nanaoparticles in the prizes he sent now control our minds...J011Y-6 mind control is real man.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
was messing with this serve again trying to make a better vid. Its ok. But thanks to @Curious that serve is ruined for me. Here are the questions:

1. How do you make it hit the back fence?
2. I was playing with hitting really loose like the racquet coming out of the hand loose. Is that the deal? I don;t have a death grip but its not a loose as I was hitting today. Seemed to get more spin...
3. There never seems to be any twist that shows up on vid. How do you capture that?
Loose shoulder is more important than loose hand.

Put your off hand on your serving shoulder and feel the difference between having it tight and loose.

Flop your elbow around like a chicken dance.

J
 

Kevo

Hall of Fame
was messing with this serve again trying to make a better vid. Its ok. But thanks to @Curious that serve is ruined for me. Here are the questions:

1. How do you make it hit the back fence?
2. I was playing with hitting really loose like the racquet coming out of the hand loose. Is that the deal? I don;t have a death grip but its not a loose as I was hitting today. Seemed to get more spin...
3. There never seems to be any twist that shows up on vid. How do you capture that?
1. Pace, spin, and depth. A lot of times people concentrate so much on spin that they leave a lot of depth on the table. So aim a little higher over the net if needed.
2. You have to really let the racquet drop deep and then wait just a little longer than usual to release it up, and when you do you need to make sure you've supinated the arm so it can unwind easily after contact. If you don't do that you will naturally slow the racquet head to protect your wrist because it will over extend and not feel so good.
3. I think getting the right angle is the most important. It's hard to do. On my vid it was barely visible, but looked from my perspective like it was quite a jump. This past Saturday I got several comments where people complained about the height of the ball or the location when they were trying to make contact. The amount of jump didn't look that much more to me, but it was causing them a good deal of difficulty on the return. Also catching more of the inside edge of the ball will give it more sidespin. I do a better job of that sometimes more than others. If I practice it quite a few days in a row I get pretty good at it, but I don't practice my serve that much and it's not the natural spin for my kick. Most of mine have more top than side. I like it when my opponents have to hit above their head. Then when they move in I hit it flat for the second and really mess with them. :)

The most effective kick serve I ever saw was from a big fit young guy who was seriously ticked that me and my partner were beating him and his partner even though we were clearly the less physical pair. He got mad and took the biggest swing at a serve I've ever seen in my life and hit a kick that curved about 8ft in the air (sideways) and then bounced about 10ft the other direction. When I saw it in the air I was very confused but I knew that I was going to have to move way out to the side so I did, but I still ended up catching into my body on my frame. It didn't quite make it over the net, but I couldn't do anything more than laugh at how ridiculous that serve was. We still ended up winning because I think he hurt his shoulder a little on that swing. Didn't hit another good kick for the rest of the match.
 
was messing with this serve again trying to make a better vid. Its ok. But thanks to @Curious that serve is ruined for me. Here are the questions:

1. How do you make it hit the back fence?
2. I was playing with hitting really loose like the racquet coming out of the hand loose. Is that the deal? I don;t have a death grip but its not a loose as I was hitting today. Seemed to get more spin...
3. There never seems to be any twist that shows up on vid. How do you capture that?
The fence isn't returning your serve. 8-B I would measure the height at returner. 8-B8-B8-B
 

oserver

Professional

Practice topspin serves to land the ball as close to the net as possible.
Stance - ranges from platform to semi-open stance and open stance.
Grip - I used my forehand grip between eastern forehand and semi-western.
I didn't use an active arm to serve and didn't try to swing the arm fast. I tried to have a very loose wrist and let arm to be passive. The goal is to let the body to contribute more in pace and spin generation and minimize arm's contribution.
You don't need to use continental grip to do it.
 

Kevo

Hall of Fame

Practice topspin serves to land the ball as close to the net as possible.
Stance - ranges from platform to semi-open stance and open stance.
Grip - I used my forehand grip between eastern forehand and semi-western.
I didn't use an active arm to serve and didn't try to swing the arm fast. I tried to have a very loose wrist and let arm to be passive. The goal is to let the body to contribute more in pace and spin generation and minimize arm's contribution.
You don't need to use continental grip to do it.
You could also serve underhand, but it will really limit the potential effectiveness of the serve. The thing about good serving is it's effective even after your opponent knows how you hit it. I don't think that serve is going to be all that effective once your opponent sees it unless you can get more speed and spin on it. But it looks like it could work for lower level rec play. Might be more useful in doubles where you have a net man to gobble up the reply.

It's going to be hard to significantly increase the speed with that grip because you are effectively eliminating the pronation you need to swing fast without hurting your wrist.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru

Practice topspin serves to land the ball as close to the net as possible.
Stance - ranges from platform to semi-open stance and open stance.
Grip - I used my forehand grip between eastern forehand and semi-western.
I didn't use an active arm to serve and didn't try to swing the arm fast. I tried to have a very loose wrist and let arm to be passive. The goal is to let the body to contribute more in pace and spin generation and minimize arm's contribution.
You don't need to use continental grip to do it.
Another winner!

Congrats, I didn't think you would be able to do it!

PM me your mailing info, shirt, short, and shoe size, and string type.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
You could also serve underhand, but it will really limit the potential effectiveness of the serve. The thing about good serving is it's effective even after your opponent knows how you hit it. I don't think that serve is going to be all that effective once your opponent sees it unless you can get more speed and spin on it. But it looks like it could work for lower level rec play. Might be more useful in doubles where you have a net man to gobble up the reply.

It's going to be hard to significantly increase the speed with that grip because you are effectively eliminating the pronation you need to swing fast without hurting your wrist.
Hey, the challenge was laid down and he met it.

J
 

Kevo

Hall of Fame
Hey, the challenge was laid down and he met it.
I was just speaking with regards to his comments on how to hit it. Like I said, technically you could hit an underhand serve and accomplish the goal, but I wouldn't advocate for it. Maybe he was just trying to prove it could be done with non-conventional technique which has some merit, but I think I'd go catholic nun on a student that was practicing serves with a forehand grip. Just makes me cringe when I see it, and I see it a lot. Makes me cringe even more when I see kids working with coaches that are content to let them practice that way. I have dealt with many older kids and adults who struggle mightily to break those early habits. I feel like they are just ruining their chance to have a good serve down the road.
 

oserver

Professional
You could also serve underhand, but it will really limit the potential effectiveness of the serve. The thing about good serving is it's effective even after your opponent knows how you hit it. I don't think that serve is going to be all that effective once your opponent sees it unless you can get more speed and spin on it. But it looks like it could work for lower level rec play. Might be more useful in doubles where you have a net man to gobble up the reply.

It's going to be hard to significantly increase the speed with that grip because you are effectively eliminating the pronation you need to swing fast without hurting your wrist.
I'll make a video to show the higher pace of the same kind of serves. I shouldn't place a racket just in front of my feet to limit my forward move into the court. The racket on the ground was just to show how close my feet were to the T.

Players were taught to use pronation to increase pace in serves. If you use continental grip, pronation maybe the best way. But I found that both continental grip and pronation are just myths. You can use forehand grips and open stances with a passive arm to serve without much pronation. It can be effective if not more effective than the conventional serves.
 

Kevo

Hall of Fame
Players were taught to use pronation to increase pace in serves. If you use continental grip, pronation maybe the best way. But I found that both continental grip and pronation are just myths. You can use forehand grips and open stances with a passive arm to serve without much pronation. It can be effective if not more effective than the conventional serves.
Well if you have a problem with your shoulder or wrist a forehand grip might be more effective, but to claim it's more effective in general is absolutely preposterous.

Show me a serve with a non-continental forehand grip without pronation that tops 100mph and I might reconsider. If it actually were more effective there would be a lot of really good servers out there in rec land because the majority of them are probably hitting with a forehand grip and if they break 70mph they are doing really well.
 

oserver

Professional
Well if you have a problem with your shoulder or wrist a forehand grip might be more effective, but to claim it's more effective in general is absolutely preposterous.

Show me a serve with a non-continental forehand grip without pronation that tops 100mph and I might reconsider. If it actually were more effective there would be a lot of really good servers out there in rec land because the majority of them are probably hitting with a forehand grip and if they break 70mph they are doing really well.
What this challenge is about? It seems you just could not focus?! Is this kind of kick serve about the pace? Are we in a serve speed contest?

First you brought about the underhand serve; what's your point? Only your serves were good? Any serves slower than your's were not good enough to pass, or they only be compatible with underhand serves?

Second, I don't have shoulder or wrist problem with my serving arm. I had tennis elbow problem for years in the past, but since I changed to 3O serves (Open Stance, Open Grip, Open Wrist/Passive Arm), the problem had gone.

Third, like many coaches who don't think any possible alternatives without using continental grip and pronation, you have this fixation in your mind. For the last 4 years, many posters here in these TW forums regarded my serve as pancake serve, beginner serve. etc., even they knew I had a USTA 4.0 rating and hold a USPTA coaching certificate. Now many stopped to call me that way; maybe there is no way a pancake server can produce topspin serve like I did in some of my serve videos. I'd like to see if anyone can pass this challenge using a real pancake serve. In another thread where @Shroud and I were often in the colliding path, he repeatedly asked me to join this challenge, hoping I would be afraid to join or fail the test.

Forth, what do you think my serves would be if I have your hight and weight (I'm 5'7" and weighted about 133, using a light 10.6 ounce racket), and as young as you (I'm two or three times older than you; you'll be glad if you have my shape and can still play single in my age).

Be open and try to learn something you don't know from others. Don't act and talk like a big shot!
 
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@oserver if you had tennis elbow problems and your 3O serve technique allows you to keep playing and serving, that's great.

Many players have to make adjustments of some sort as they age and/or get injured. This could be shot selection, racquet, strategy or even technique.

Like @J011yroger , I am impressed that you took on the challenge and did it. I didn't think it was possible with a FH grip. Looks like a lot of posters didn't even attempt it or perhaps they did, but couldn't do it.
 
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oserver

Professional
@oserver if you had tennis elbow problems and your 3O serve technique allows you to keep playing and serving, that's great.

Many players have to make adjustments of some sort as they age and/or get injured. This could be shot selection, racquet, strategy or even technique.

Like @J011yroger , I am impressed that you took on the challenge and did. I didn't think it was possible with a FH grip. Looks like a lot of posters didn't even attempt it or perhaps they did, but couldn't do it.
Thanks for your comment @onehandbh. Thank @J011yroger for doing this interesting challenge. Apparently there are many myths in tennis. A short list can be like this:

1. Good serves have to be in closed stance.
2. Continental grip (plus or minus) is the only choice for serve.
3. Pronation is a must for serves.
4. Serves using a forehand grip is only for beginners to produce beginner serves.
5. Forehand forms and techniques cannot be applied to the serves.
6. Serves using a forehand grip or using a open stance must be pancake serves.
7. The current serve forms and techniques will last forever (see the survey response at top of the thread - Why forehand evolved to the modern style by serve remain to be traditional
....
 

oserver

Professional
@J011yroger here is a video I did back in Sep 29, 2014. It will be interesting to do another challenge with the knee down version like in the video. My knee position was a little far from the T, but I think I can do it using the same rule as your current one without difficulties. Please let me know your thought. Thanks.

 

Kevo

Hall of Fame
What this challenge is about? It seems you just could not focus?! Is this kind of kick serve about the pace? Are we in a serve speed contest?
Like I said above. I'm not commenting on the challenge, just your statements about how to serve and the impression you leave with readers of this forum that serving with a forehand grip is a good choice for serving. It may be for some, but it's not the gold standard so to speak. And you said continental and pronation is a myth. That as I stated is preposterous.

First you brought about the underhand serve; what's your point? Only your serves were good? Any serves slower than your's were not good enough to pass, or they only be compatible with underhand serves?
No, my point was as I stated above there's a difference between a good serve and a functional serve. As I stated if someone needs to hit a serve with a forehand grip or underhand for some reason then kudos to them for getting out there and doing what needs to be done. I'll admit to having hit a few underhand serves in my time. No biggie. My point is simply that hitting with a forehand grip is not the best option if you are capable of the better option.


Second, I don't have shoulder or wrist problem with my serving arm. I had tennis elbow problem for years in the past, but since I changed to 3O serves (Open Stance, Open Grip, Open Wrist/Passive Arm), the problem had gone.
Happy to hear that.

Third, like many coaches who don't think any possible alternatives without using continental grip and pronation, you have this fixation in your mind. For the last 4 years, many posters here in these TW forums regarded my serve as pancake serve, beginner serve. etc., even they knew I had a USTA 4.0 rating and hold a USPTA coaching certificate.
Believe me I know there are a lot of 4.0s that have serves that are pretty weak. Even servers that use continental grips and pronation. I also have had a coaching certificate and went through the testing, etc. So I know that the fact you have one literally means almost nothing about how effective or advanced your serve is for competition.

Now many stopped to call me that way; maybe there is no way a pancake server can produce topspin serve like I did in some of my serve videos. I'd like to see if anyone can pass this challenge using a real pancake serve. In another thread where @Shroud and I were often in the colliding path, he repeatedly asked me to join this challenge, hoping I would be afraid to join or fail the test.
I'm happy you are happy with your serve and the fact you joined the challenge and did it with your forehand grip. I'm not trying to pick on you or your personal choices. I don't know all your circumstances. All I'm saying is that if 9 and 10yr olds can learn to kick serves with proper technique then healthy people of all ages should not be advised to settle for forehand grip serves. And I really hope you are not coaching that to healthy capable people who are paying you to learn.

Forth, what do you think my serves would be if I have your hight and weight (I'm 5'7" and weighted about 133, using a light 10.6 ounce racket), and as young as you (I'm two or three times older than you; you'll be glad if you have my shape and can still play single in my age).
I've played with lots of older people. My current hero is a guy who went by Skip who was still running down balls at the age of 78. I hope to be so capable at that age. Now if you are 88 - 132 and also doing the same, you may be my new hero. :)

Be open and try to learn something you don't know from others. Don't act and talk like a big shot!
I love to learn new things. I started teaching myself a legit pro style serve from a Tennis Magazine article when I was in middle school. My serve started with a forehand grip before I knew better. As I said before, if you, or someone you know / teach can accomplish with a forehand grip the kinds of serves people can hit with a continental grip I am ready to stand corrected. I will not accept your word for it against my personal experience playing and teaching for many years, and I will not advise anyone capable of learning a proper serve to ever serve with a forehand grip. My goal as a coach is to assist the people I teach in becoming the best player they can become. I have yet to teach anyone who is not capable of hitting a continental grip serve with pronation. This ranges all the way from young kids to adults.

Anyway, if I offended you personally I want to apologize. That's not my intent. I see a lot of things advocated on this board, some good, some bad, some indifferent, but I can't let serve with a forehand grip pass by without confronting that idea. I mean I don't think I've ever met a tennis player who didn't want a better serve, and I just couldn't let it slide by without comment.

If you're ever in Dallas and want to have a hit let me know. One of my favorite players I ever met was a college instructor in his 60s that people called the professor. He was quite good even though he was not able to use a lot of the more physical technique that is typical of a high level player. He just played a very smart game and always took advantage of any opportunity he was given with the ball. He might not have been the best example of high level technique, but he was a great example of how to play the game. :)
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
@J011yroger here is a video I did back in Sep 29, 2014. It will be interesting to do another challenge with the knee down version like in the video. My knee position was a little far from the T, but I think I can do it using the same rule as your current one without difficulties. Please let me know your thought. Thanks.

Keep trying new things!

J
 

oserver

Professional
Nice video. I wonder what your thoughts are on the serves from the knees where you were pronating. Would you say they were any better or worse than the serves where you didn't pronate?
That video is 4 years old. I opened stance and grip but were still using closed stance techniques - active arm and pronation, etc.. It took me a long time to realize that forms (stance and grip) need suitable techniques to match each other. Serves using opened stance and open grip need to match the open wrist and passive arm just like what has been there for forehand strokes. This is why I call my serves Forehand Serves. Lagging arm or passive arm has proved very effective in producing power.

The math here is a simple one. If we divided the 100% power production by both the arm and body (everything below the arm), the less the arm's contribution will shift more to body's contribution. The body's muscles are a lot more powerful than arm's muscles, thus the weak arm or passive arm is better than strong arm or active arm. This has been proven by modern forehand. Beginners always hit the ball with active, fast swing arm, the result is obvious.

The second argument is as important as the the above math. When you hit a ball with a passive arm with the wrist at extension state, you can have a loose wrist and arm that can absorb the ball well so it can stay on the string bed longer. This give the body more time to drive the ball. The conventional serves that employ the quick arm swing with pronation and wrist flexing give arm too much contribution in power generation (30% was the number in a ITF recommendation paper published in 2007), depriving some portion (rightfully belong to the body) from the body.

Above is a short summary of thinking or methodology behind the Forehand Serve. In tennis, apparently we have two main systems of thinking and practice. One is represented by modern forehand, another is represented by conventional serve (or modern serve which didn't evolve like the forehand in last twenty or so years.) One can say that modern forehand is ahead of it's time in comparison to the very slow evolution of modern serve, or modern serve is falling far behind of modern forehand, form wise and technique wise. Either way, in a long run, I don't see the possibility of parallel coexistence. Survival of the fittest will apply.

All indications I see are pointing to the modern forehand model as the winner. The benefit for the early adaptors can be significant. Since player's learning and training can be simplified a lot. A coach can say these to a young boy or girl: the way I teach you how to serve is the same way I teach you your forehand, or vice verse. The only difference is one is a overhead shot, another is mostly hit under your shoulder. Your stance, grip and the way you use your wrist and arm are all the same. Think about how powerful these message can be; how much time one can save and how fast players can develop their playing ability under this new unified system.

Ok, you guy must be bored now to read above futuristic fantasies. Today is the first day of 2019, maybe any new wish should be ok:p
 

Kevo

Hall of Fame
That video is 4 years old.
Gotcha.

The math here is a simple one. If we divided the 100% power production by both the arm and body (everything below the arm), the less the arm's contribution will shift more to body's contribution.
This seems like the "I saved so much money at this great sale they had at the mall" argument, only in reverse.

Regardless, best of luck to you in 2019! Keep on running down those shots! :)
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
lol. From one of my favorite movies, Bagger Vance...

Rannulph Junnah:
I could have killed you out there!

Bagger Vance:
Oh no sir, see I set myself directly in front of ya. Judgin' how you were hittin' them balls that's where I figure I'd be out of harms way.
Just finished mixed practice, popped into Applebee's for a Bud Light and some mozzarella sticks and guess what was on.



J
 
That video is 4 years old. I opened stance and grip but were still using closed stance techniques - active arm and pronation, etc.. It took me a long time to realize that forms (stance and grip) need suitable techniques to match each other. Serves using opened stance and open grip need to match the open wrist and passive arm just like what has been there for forehand strokes. This is why I call my serves Forehand Serves. Lagging arm or passive arm has proved very effective in producing power.

The math here is a simple one. If we divided the 100% power production by both the arm and body (everything below the arm), the less the arm's contribution will shift more to body's contribution. The body's muscles are a lot more powerful than arm's muscles, thus the weak arm or passive arm is better than strong arm or active arm. This has been proven by modern forehand. Beginners always hit the ball with active, fast swing arm, the result is obvious.

The second argument is as important as the the above math. When you hit a ball with a passive arm with the wrist at extension state, you can have a loose wrist and arm that can absorb the ball well so it can stay on the string bed longer. This give the body more time to drive the ball. The conventional serves that employ the quick arm swing with pronation and wrist flexing give arm too much contribution in power generation (30% was the number in a ITF recommendation paper published in 2007), depriving some portion (rightfully belong to the body) from the body.

Above is a short summary of thinking or methodology behind the Forehand Serve. In tennis, apparently we have two main systems of thinking and practice. One is represented by modern forehand, another is represented by conventional serve (or modern serve which didn't evolve like the forehand in last twenty or so years.) One can say that modern forehand is ahead of it's time in comparison to the very slow evolution of modern serve, or modern serve is falling far behind of modern forehand, form wise and technique wise. Either way, in a long run, I don't see the possibility of parallel coexistence. Survival of the fittest will apply.

All indications I see are pointing to the modern forehand model as the winner. The benefit for the early adaptors can be significant. Since player's learning and training can be simplified a lot. A coach can say these to a young boy or girl: the way I teach you how to serve is the same way I teach you your forehand, or vice verse. The only difference is one is a overhead shot, another is mostly hit under your shoulder. Your stance, grip and the way you use your wrist and arm are all the same. Think about how powerful these message can be; how much time one can save and how fast players can develop their playing ability under this new unified system.

Ok, you guy must be bored now to read above futuristic fantasies. Today is the first day of 2019, maybe any new wish should be ok:p
Any thoughts on Thiem’s open stance serve from the deuce side using “closed stanced techniques” as seen in his training video?

 
That video is 4 years old. I opened stance and grip but were still using closed stance techniques - active arm and pronation, etc.. It took me a long time to realize that forms (stance and grip) need suitable techniques to match each other. Serves using opened stance and open grip need to match the open wrist and passive arm just like what has been there for forehand strokes. This is why I call my serves Forehand Serves. Lagging arm or passive arm has proved very effective in producing power.
It certainly is proven by your vids...
 
Just finished mixed practice, popped into Applebee's for a Bud Light and some mozzarella sticks and guess what was on.



J
It is amazing how much it is about tennis, as much as golf, as much as life. Have watched it 100 times and still get a great feeling about it.

The Bud light and sticks make it better too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

oserver

Professional
Any thoughts on Thiem’s open stance serve from the deuce side using “closed stanced techniques” as seen in his training video?

Thiem is experimenting the rotational serve using open stance and 360 degree turn serves too using closed stance in his another another practice video. Sooner of later, he will do 360 degree using open stance. Let's wait and see. I think he has tasted the advantage of using more angular momentum generation to increase the pace and spin of his serve. It looks like he is the first elite player to enter this forbidden area in tennis. Others had done some but not as bold as him so far.

Anyone like to take a survey for this topic -

Why forehand evolved to the modern style by serve remain to be traditional?
 
I discover lately that fun thread... I don't really want to kill the planet by having you sending stuff over the ocean so I submit my modest contribution for free :

:rolleyes: I am wondering how many rules I am breaking (1: being a lefty, 2: being half red-haired, 3: doing things that should be banned by the physiotherapists committee ...)

(ok I'm spamming with my serve video but to my great surprise nobody told anything about this weird one which I call inverted slice - I don't even know if it has a name or known players doing it regularly)
 
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I discover lately that fun thread... I don't really want to kill the planet by having you sending stuff over the ocean so I submit my modest contribution for free :

:rolleyes: I am wondering how many rules I am breaking (1: being a lefty, 2: being half red-haired, 3: doing things that should be banned by the physiotherapists committee ...)

(ok I'm spamming with my serve video but to my great surprise nobody told anything about this weird one which I call inverted slice - I don't even know if it has a name or known players doing it regularly)
reverse serve
 
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