Just can't get the Windshield Wiper FH Right.

holytennis

New User
Hello guys! So i have been repeatedly trying to get the WW forehand motion right, but i just cant pull it off. I have some questions. I was unclear about the role of the wrist during this motion. Are we supposed to create the WW motion using the wrist? Or elbow and shoulder? Should the wrist be bent back at contact? Should i turn the wrist just before i strike the ball, so that the racket face is towards the ball? Also, could you please tell me where exactly i should hold the racket(which bevel and how high from the butt)? I have been trying the Semi-Western and the Western grips, but i just keep missing the sweetspot or i shank the ball. I really want to hit this shot. Please walk me through the WHOLE process! Thanks.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Shoulder does most of the WW, while the elbow does get bent after contact.
Wrist laid back on the whole forward swing, up to contact. Matters little after contact, but it's the WW finish working backwards that insures a correct forward swing.
Like in golf, the followthru is most important for a consistent stroke.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
I'll have to respectfully disagree with Lee. The wrist does most of the WW motion at contact, where it matters. The elbow and shoulder get involved during the deceleration of the racquet after contact.

But you're not forcing a twisting of your wrist generally to get the motion. The wrist motion happens more because you've let the racquet head drop a bit below the ball and you're swing up and across. You're mostly allowing the racquet to move in the WW motion, not actively forcing it.

Here's Yanko Tipsarevic hitting some very nice forehands in slow motion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13N2TOH7Kwg

Good swing, SW grip (base knuckle of index finger on bevel 4), good use of left arm. The only thing a bit unusual is that he hits from neutral stance. Semi open is preferable.

Here's a good lesson on the modern forehand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNtq393tvo&feature=related
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Hello guys! So i have been repeatedly trying to get the WW forehand motion right, but i just cant pull it off. I have some questions. I was unclear about the role of the wrist during this motion. Are we supposed to create the WW motion using the wrist? Or elbow and shoulder? Should the wrist be bent back at contact? Should i turn the wrist just before i strike the ball, so that the racket face is towards the ball? Also, could you please tell me where exactly i should hold the racket(which bevel and how high from the butt)? I have been trying the Semi-Western and the Western grips, but i just keep missing the sweetspot or i shank the ball. I really want to hit this shot. Please walk me through the WHOLE process! Thanks.

Don't force it or manipulate your hand or elbow. It's the natural result of modern technique, if you're doing it right. If your technique is correct, from the ground up, and your arm, wrist and hand are loose and relaxed, the WW finish will be automatic. Here are the basic elements of a modern forehand that I posted in another thread. Below that is an excellent online lesson for the modern forehand.

- SW grip.
- Set your arm and racquet in the hitting position from the start - elbow in and forward, wrist laid back, left hand on throat of racquet, racquet head pointing straight up.
- Wide, low stance with feet parellel, or near parallel, to the baseline, weight primarily on right leg, toes on both feet pointing to the right side fence.
- Rotate your upper body back as far as you comfortably can. Your hips should be facing the right side fence, your chest should be past the right side fence, with your chin on your left shoulder.
- Release your left hand and lead your forward swing with your right hip turning toward the target. Your lower body pulls your upper body, which pulls your arm and racquet to contact. Hand and wrist remain lose and relaxed so that the racquet head drops below the level of the hand. Reminder: your elbow remains in and forward to contact.
- Make contact about 2 feet in front of your right foot.
- As you swing up and forward, your weight transfers from your right foot across to your left foot, feet pivot so they point to the left side fence.
- After contact, elbow rises and racquet head swings across in WW motion and finishes pointing down.
- Upper body continues to rotate until your chest is facing the left side fence.

If you do this, you will hit with maximum power and spin from anywhere on the court.

http://lockandrolltennis.com/forehand/ (Scroll down to the YouTube video).
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with Lee. The wrist does most of the WW motion at contact, where it matters.

Got to say Lee has it better. You should not do it via the wrist.
You have some good things about the "up and across", but don't quite
have how that is done. It can be simulated with the wrist motion, but
that is an erratic way to do it.

Look at your lock and roll guy in slo mo using space bar to frame by frame it.
You can see his wrist action is not until after contact.

I say to try not to involve the wrist on the contact, but it sometimes does get
started around that moment, but I still think it's important to try and delay it.
 
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rkelley

Hall of Fame
Got to say Lee has it better. You should not do it via the wrist.
You have some good things about the "up and across", but don't quite
have how that is done. It can be simulated with the wrist motion, but
that is an erratic way to do it.

Look at your lock and roll guy in slo mo using space bar to frame by frame it.
You can see his wrist action is not until after contact.

I say to try not to involve the wrist on the contact, but it sometimes does get
started around that moment, but I still think it's important to try and delay it.

Well, I guess we're going to have to disagree. The wrist has to be rotating at contact to be a WW forehand. That's where the topspin comes from. The motion is a bit more complicated than pure rotation because the real point is to get the racquet face moving up and across the ball at a constant angle well before and all the through the contact zone. The thing that makes a WW forehand different than the standard, old school forehand is that the wrist is allowed to rotate thereby allowing far greater brushing action on the ball than you could ever get with just the old school "low to high" swing.

Many coaches give the advice, "Swing at the ball and look at your watch" to hit a WW fh.

Anything that happens after contact isn't going to affect the ball.

Here's Fed's fh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

And here's Djokovic's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me1tzm1nnWk

5263, usually your advice is right on. I've got to believe we're missing something in each other's explanations.
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Many coaches give the advice, "Swing at the ball and look at your watch" to hit a WW fh.

Anything that happens after contact isn't going to affect the ball.

Here's Fed's fh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

And here's Djokovic's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

5263, usually your advice is right on. I've got to believe we're missing something in each other's explanations.
Do you like that coaches advice on the watch?
That is pronating the forearm more than a wrist twist.

and those are both Fed clips
 

Ryoma

Rookie
Hello guys! So i have been repeatedly trying to get the WW forehand motion right, but i just cant pull it off. I have some questions. I was unclear about the role of the wrist during this motion. Are we supposed to create the WW motion using the wrist? Or elbow and shoulder? Should the wrist be bent back at contact? Should i turn the wrist just before i strike the ball, so that the racket face is towards the ball? Also, could you please tell me where exactly i should hold the racket(which bevel and how high from the butt)? I have been trying the Semi-Western and the Western grips, but i just keep missing the sweetspot or i shank the ball. I really want to hit this shot. Please walk me through the WHOLE process! Thanks.

WW forehand is just like any other forehand. It looks like the windshield wiper because of the pace of the incoming ball. It the incoming ball is fast, you don't need as more horizontal racket movement to compress the string against the ball. If the ball is slow and you try to do a WW forehand, you will end up framing the ball.

So, let's get the normal forehand down. First you need to learn how to use the racket by design. In modern tennis, the racket is supposed to be used like a hammer for leverage.

If you are focusing on the grip, you are missing the point. The grip, as in where you place your index knuckle has very little to do with how to use the racket for leverage. This is why so many old people are at awe when they realize Federer is using a eastern-ish grip. It is not about the grip. No matter what grip you use, you are using the racket like a hammer.

If you use the racket like a hammer (the string bed being the hammer strike), you will naturally trace the ball flight by the racket butt and do some kind of inside out movement. But please, please, don't focus on the useless details. All you need to do is think of it as using a hammer and make sure you are supporting the string bed with your palm. So the string bed is basically your palm, that's how you get the feel of the racket string bed.

You need to figure out how to grip the racket to give you these feelings, because different people have different palm size and are using different grip size.

Now, about how to generate the top spin. For the love of god, don't brush at the back of the ball. Nobody on earth use a brushing motion to brush something traveling at 100km/h toward him. Why don't these people teach brushing up the back of a bullet? ;D

All you need to do is strike upward and forward to the incoming ball. It should feel like the ball is cupping onto the string and you are forcing it out. It is that split second you have total control of the spin and pace of the ball. You are basically hitting a nail with your racket and you want the nail to go in with a slightly upward angle. Now get that feeling down. When you get that, you can increase the upward strike and decease the forward velocity by 10%. Do it 10% at a time until you found what you want.

Let me know if that helps.
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
WW forehand is just like any other forehand. It looks like the windshield wiper because of the pace of the incoming ball.

Not true at all. it's not just like any forehand. it's a specific technique and it has nothing to do with the pace of the incoming ball.

If the ball is slow and you try to do a WW forehand, you will end up framing the ball.

huh? crazy talk.

So, let's get the normal forehand down. First you need to learn how to use the racket by design. In modern tennis, the racket is supposed to be used like a hammer for leverage.

no. it's not supposed to be used like a hammer. a fh uses different muscles, different grips, different pressure points and a different swing path than a hammer.

If you are focusing on the grip, you are missing the point. The grip, as in where you place your index knuckle has very little to do with how to use the racket for leverage. This is why so many old people are at awe when they realize Federer is using a eastern-ish grip. It is not about the grip. No matter what grip you use, you are using the racket like a hammer.

this is terrible advice. i believe you should focus on a grip. are you saying grips aren't important?

If you use the racket like a hammer (the string bed being the hammer strike), you will naturally trace the ball flight by the racket butt and do some kind of inside out movement. But please, please, don't focus on the useless details. All you need to do is think of it as using a hammer and make sure you are supporting the string bed with your palm. So the string bed is basically your palm, that's how you get the feel of the racket string bed.

i don't know about you but i don't swing a hammer using my palm. hammers are held with a continental type grip. do you play w/ a continental grip on your fh?

Now, about how to generate the top spin. For the love of god, don't brush at the back of the ball. Nobody on earth use a brushing motion to brush something traveling at 100km/h toward him.

where are you getting this stuff from?

All you need to do is strike upward and forward to the incoming ball. It should feel like the ball is cupping onto the string and you are forcing it out. It is that split second you have total control of the spin and pace of the ball. You are basically hitting a nail with your racket and you want the nail to go in with a slightly upward angle.

hammers hit a nail with what would be the leading edge of a racquet frame.
why are you trying to make an analogy of a hammer and racquet on a fh? they are not the same motions/feeling/path at all.

btw, you never replied to the numerous questions in your other thread where you were preaching to put your palm and knuckle on bevel 7 for a 1hbh.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
Do you like that coaches advice on the watch?
That is pronating the forearm more than a wrist twist.

and those are both Fed clips

5263, I'm happy to have a conversation, but let's not do the question thing. If you have a thought, post it. I'll do the same. If at some point we can't agree then we can respectfully disagree and let others decided for themselves.

Thanks.
 
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vil

Semi-Pro
WW forehand is just like any other forehand. It looks like the windshield wiper because of the pace of the incoming ball. It the incoming ball is fast, you don't need as more horizontal racket movement to compress the string against the ball. If the ball is slow and you try to do a WW forehand, you will end up framing the ball.

So, let's get the normal forehand down. First you need to learn how to use the racket by design. In modern tennis, the racket is supposed to be used like a hammer for leverage.

If you are focusing on the grip, you are missing the point. The grip, as in where you place your index knuckle has very little to do with how to use the racket for leverage. This is why so many old people are at awe when they realize Federer is using a eastern-ish grip. It is not about the grip. No matter what grip you use, you are using the racket like a hammer.

If you use the racket like a hammer (the string bed being the hammer strike), you will naturally trace the ball flight by the racket butt and do some kind of inside out movement. But please, please, don't focus on the useless details. All you need to do is think of it as using a hammer and make sure you are supporting the string bed with your palm. So the string bed is basically your palm, that's how you get the feel of the racket string bed.

You need to figure out how to grip the racket to give you these feelings, because different people have different palm size and are using different grip size.

Now, about how to generate the top spin. For the love of god, don't brush at the back of the ball. Nobody on earth use a brushing motion to brush something traveling at 100km/h toward him. Why don't these people teach brushing up the back of a bullet? ;D

All you need to do is strike upward and forward to the incoming ball. It should feel like the ball is cupping onto the string and you are forcing it out. It is that split second you have total control of the spin and pace of the ball. You are basically hitting a nail with your racket and you want the nail to go in with a slightly upward angle. Now get that feeling down. When you get that, you can increase the upward strike and decease the forward velocity by 10%. Do it 10% at a time until you found what you want.

Let me know if that helps.

My goodness I hope you are not a tennis coach. My head is still spinning from confusion what you've just stated.:confused: Where on earth did you get this nonsense from? You sound like one of those self proclaimed tennis theory "gurus" that don't actually play tennis.
 

holytennis

New User
So basically I take my racket back and as I'm swinging towards the ball, my wrist is completely bent back and the racket face is dropped down, and my wrist stays locked in this position until after contact. Then i can use the wrist to complete the WW Motion?
 

Ryoma

Rookie
Not true at all. it's not just like any forehand. it's a specific technique and it has nothing to do with the pace of the incoming ball.



huh? crazy talk.



no. it's not supposed to be used like a hammer. a fh uses different muscles, different grips, different pressure points and a different swing path than a hammer.



this is terrible advice. i believe you should focus on a grip. are you saying grips aren't important?



i don't know about you but i don't swing a hammer using my palm. hammers are held with a continental type grip. do you play w/ a continental grip on your fh?



where are you getting this stuff from?



hammers hit a nail with what would be the leading edge of a racquet frame.
why are you trying to make an analogy of a hammer and racquet on a fh? they are not the same motions/feeling/path at all.

btw, you never replied to the numerous questions in your other thread where you were preaching to put your palm and knuckle on bevel 7 for a 1hbh.

You just proved that you are an idiot. Please go hit the wall.
 

Ryoma

Rookie
@vil It's from experience with a brain capable of critical thinking. Not just another zombie who sit in a class and listen to teacher regurgitate urban myths.

If you are confused, my guess is you have old school groundstroke, which is fine...
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
You just proved that you are an idiot. Please go hit the wall.

hit the wall? what does that mean? should i use a hammer? do you recommend i hold the hammer like a tennis racquet and swing down on the wall? if i swing down at a slow pace will that prevent me from getting a windshield wiper? what grip should i use? oh wait. you said not to focus on grips because then i'd be missing the point. and i shouldn't brush up on the wall right?

please advise.
 

crosscourt

Professional
Hello guys! So i have been repeatedly trying to get the WW forehand motion right, but i just cant pull it off. I have some questions. I was unclear about the role of the wrist during this motion. Are we supposed to create the WW motion using the wrist? Or elbow and shoulder? Should the wrist be bent back at contact? Should i turn the wrist just before i strike the ball, so that the racket face is towards the ball? Also, could you please tell me where exactly i should hold the racket(which bevel and how high from the butt)? I have been trying the Semi-Western and the Western grips, but i just keep missing the sweetspot or i shank the ball. I really want to hit this shot. Please walk me through the WHOLE process! Thanks.

Lots of different elements to it but try this and it helps - it helped me. Take your racket and hold it out in front and to the side as if you were going to hit the ball on your forehand side. Check that your wrist is laid back so that the palm of your hand is facing forwards (behind the racket handle of course), then pronate (flip) your wrist With your palm still facing forwards so that the tip of the racket is no longer pointing away from you to your right and slightly down on the right hand side and so that the tip it is pointing away from you on the left hand side. That is the essence of it. To do that your elbow and shoulder will also have to move in specific ways - your elbow in particular will lift. Later you can work on accentuating things around your elbow and shoulder to enhance the effect. But wrist pronation is key and once mastered you are in a very strong position. You will also discover just how much power you can develop from that motion alone and some decent timing. I hope this helps. It really is key so if it doesn't work at first keep going.

CC
 

connico

Rookie
actually it's a combination from internal rotation at the shoulder and pronation of the forearm

could not have said it any better... The WW reference is to simplify and demystify the pronation.

If you want to exaggerate the feeling for pronation on a forehand. Hold your arm out straight in front of you with what ever grip you use it a forehand hand and rotate the forearm from right to left and back again like a wind-shield wiper. Wrist should be locked.
 

holytennis

New User
Lots of different elements to it but try this and it helps - it helped me. Take your racket and hold it out in front and to the side as if you were going to hit the ball on your forehand side. Check that your wrist is laid back so that the palm of your hand is facing forwards (behind the racket handle of course), then pronate (flip) your wrist With your palm still facing forwards so that the tip of the racket is no longer pointing away from you to your right and slightly down on the right hand side and so that the tip it is pointing away from you on the left hand side. That is the essence of it. To do that your elbow and shoulder will also have to move in specific ways - your elbow in particular will lift. Later you can work on accentuating things around your elbow and shoulder to enhance the effect. But wrist pronation is key and once mastered you are in a very strong position. You will also discover just how much power you can develop from that motion alone and some decent timing. I hope this helps. It really is key so if it doesn't work at first keep going.

CC

Couldn't get what you were saying, can you please elaborate?
 

Wuppy

Professional
Having it described in words is worthless to actually learning how to do it. It's like having someone tell you step by step how to throw a ball. You need to see it done and preferably have somebody coach you on it.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
5263, I'm happy to have a conversation, but let's not the question thing. If you have a thought, post it. I'll do the same. If at some point we can't agree then we can respectfully disagree and let others decided for themselves.

Thanks.

Sorry if it came off that way.
The way you wrote it was not clear to me if you were endorsing that teaching
or mentioning it as reference for some reason. It seemed like you did like it, but
I don't see it supporting the point you made, so I was confused.
So I asked to be clear on your position.
guess it came off wrong.
 
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rkelley

Hall of Fame
WW forehand is just like any other forehand. It looks like the windshield wiper because of the pace of the incoming ball. It the incoming ball is fast, you don't need as more horizontal racket movement to compress the string against the ball. If the ball is slow and you try to do a WW forehand, you will end up framing the ball.

This is not correct. The swing paths between the old school forehand and a WW forehand are fundamentally different. You can hit a WW forehand regardless of the speed of the incoming ball.

So, let's get the normal forehand down. First you need to learn how to use the racket by design. In modern tennis, the racket is supposed to be used like a hammer for leverage.

If you are focusing on the grip, you are missing the point. The grip, as in where you place your index knuckle has very little to do with how to use the racket for leverage. This is why so many old people are at awe when they realize Federer is using a eastern-ish grip. It is not about the grip. No matter what grip you use, you are using the racket like a hammer.

If you use the racket like a hammer (the string bed being the hammer strike), you will naturally trace the ball flight by the racket butt and do some kind of inside out movement. But please, please, don't focus on the useless details. All you need to do is think of it as using a hammer and make sure you are supporting the string bed with your palm. So the string bed is basically your palm, that's how you get the feel of the racket string bed.

Basically it sounds like you're describing a very flat, it through the ball forehand. I've never heard a hammer analogy used but I think I get what you're saying. That's fine.

The thing is, this is not a WW forehand. A WW forehand is going to have spin, mostly topspin with some side spin, and still have a lot of pace. The spin is key because:

- It allows you to hit balls hard and still have them land in. These are balls that would otherwise go out if you tried to hit them as hard but without the spin.

- Gives you an overall greater margin of error.

- Gives your ball more action on the flight and bounce that can mess with your opponent


You need to figure out how to grip the racket to give you these feelings, because different people have different palm size and are using different grip size.

Now, about how to generate the top spin. For the love of god, don't brush at the back of the ball. Nobody on earth use a brushing motion to brush something traveling at 100km/h toward him. Why don't these people teach brushing up the back of a bullet? ;D

All you need to do is strike upward and forward to the incoming ball. It should feel like the ball is cupping onto the string and you are forcing it out. It is that split second you have total control of the spin and pace of the ball. You are basically hitting a nail with your racket and you want the nail to go in with a slightly upward angle. Now get that feeling down. When you get that, you can increase the upward strike and decease the forward velocity by 10%. Do it 10% at a time until you found what you want.

Let me know if that helps.

The thing is, given human anatomy, how do you get that upward and forward motion? The WW forehand is a technique to create a swing path that emphasizes generating lots of spin. It's fundamentally different than what you describe above.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
Many coaches give the advice, "Swing at the ball and look at your watch" to hit a WW fh.

Do you like that coaches advice on the watch?
That is pronating the forearm more than a wrist twist.

5263, I'm happy to have a conversation, but let's not do the question thing. If you have a thought, post it. I'll do the same. If at some point we can't agree then we can respectfully disagree and let others decided for themselves.

Thanks.

Sorry if it came off that way.
The way you wrote it was not clear to me if you were endorsing that teaching
or mentioning it as reference for some reason. It seemed like you did like it, but
I don't see it supporting the point you made, so I was confused.
So I asked to be clear on your position.
guess it came off wrong.

No worries. And my apologies if I was coming off snippy.

Back to the discussion:

I brought up the coach's advice because I thought it illustrated how the wrist is very involved in creating the WW swing path.

Relative to "wrist twist" verses "pronation" - I'm not seeing the fundamental difference in the two terms other than pronation is specific as the direction of wrist twist.

Again, the overall thing the player is trying to implement is a swing path. The wrist is twisting or pronating, but there are other motions too. The goal is for the racquet to maintain a constant angle and direction before and through the contact zone. When I watch pros I see almost all of that motion coming from the wrist at contact. I don't see rotation of the humorus (upper arm) come into play until after contact - while the racquet is decelerating.

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying, but if you don't think the wrist isn't pronating at contact, then where is the upward motion of the racquet coming from?

Thanks.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Hello guys! So i have been repeatedly trying to get the WW forehand motion right, but i just cant pull it off. I have some questions. I was unclear about the role of the wrist during this motion. Are we supposed to create the WW motion using the wrist? Or elbow and shoulder? Should the wrist be bent back at contact? Should i turn the wrist just before i strike the ball, so that the racket face is towards the ball? Also, could you please tell me where exactly i should hold the racket(which bevel and how high from the butt)? I have been trying the Semi-Western and the Western grips, but i just keep missing the sweetspot or i shank the ball. I really want to hit this shot. Please walk me through the WHOLE process! Thanks.



I would suggest using a strong sw grip and concentrate on brushing across the ball more, this should let you get the feel of it. Don't try to get to much racket head speed to early go into the stroke easy but finish fast, when the racket head starts finishing pointing down by your left side you will know you are getting the hang of it.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
No worries. And my apologies if I was coming off snippy.

Back to the discussion:

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying, but if you don't think the wrist isn't pronating at contact, then where is the upward motion of the racquet coming from?

Thanks.

I guess the idea of wrist is complicated and means different things to players.

I think of using the wrist as 2 fold ...first the muscles of the wrist causing it to
flex,
the 2... the resulting flex of the wrist..primarily flexion and extension but ulnar and radial to a lesser extent.
I don't have to do either of those to check my watch.
I just have to pronate my forearm and
yes, that also involves a movement from the shoulder (for those who mentioned that).
 
I guess the idea of wrist is complicated and means different things to players.

I think of using the wrist as 2 fold ...first the muscles of the wrist causing it to
flex,
the 2... the resulting flex of the wrist..primarily flexion and extension but ulnar and radial to a lesser extent.
I don't have to do either of those to check my watch.
I just have to pronate my forearm and
yes, that also involves a movement from the shoulder (for those who mentioned that).

yes. turn the wrist is the same as pronation however if you talk wrist often beginners will have a too loose wrist/use wrist snap/flopping around which will cause tons of errors.

you don't want the wrist locket but you don't want flopping around/snapping of the wrist that's why talking wrist use with beginners is always dangerous.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
yes. turn the wrist is the same as pronation however

That is fine if you see it that way, but
I don't think there is a wrist turning term.
The Forearm turns and wrist is on it; thus turns with it, just like fingers and thumb,
but you don't say turning the finger when you pronate the forearm.
Hopefully we are all on the same page now.
 
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Tennis Forehand - Windshield Wiper Forehand in High Definition by Will Hamilton of Fuzzy Yellow Balls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

"The Windshield Wiper Forehand is a variation of the classic tennis forehand, and it is the "go-to" stroke for many pros on tour today. The key to learning the Windshield Wiper is to alter the way you swing up at the tennis ball and then follow through - not just tack a winshield-wiper finish onto classic forehand mechanics." --- You've got to swing up on the ball more with the windshield wiper forehand.


Pat Dougherty, the Bolletieri Camp "Serve Doctor" developed the Leverage Band to graphically demonstrate the wrist should remain relatively fixed during groundstrokes, including the windshield wiper forehand. You don't need to wear a leverage band to achieve this, but his video clearly shows the windshield wiper movement does not come from wrist motion. [Instead it comes from internal rotation at the shoulder and pronation of the forearm.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J74XpkGKyuc
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
So was a basic issue with some of the disagreements here that the wrist does not pronate (or supinate or twist), but instead the forearm? I see the distinction. If this is the case I would encourage everyone to cut others slack when the meaning is relatively clear, but perhaps the terminology is not used correctly. You don't even have to make a big deal that there was an error, just restate the point correctly.

Just a thought.
 

crosscourt

Professional
The young woman in the Dougherty video demonstrates wrist pronation very well in the footage where Dougherty first puts the device on her arm and then with the racket in position tips the racket up and over. If there is an objection to describing this as wrist pronation because the forearm also rotates so be it. That seems an obvious point. But thinking about wrist pronation has helped me hit this shot much better and I really can't see what the fuss is about. I can't pronate my wrist independently of activity in my forearm and shoulder.

CC
 
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The young woman in the Dougherty video demonstrates wrist pronation very well in the footage where Dougherty first puts the device on her arm and then with the racket in position tips the racket up and over. If there is an objection to describing this as wrist pronation because the forearm also rotates so be it. That seems an obvious point. But thinking about wrist pronation has helped me hit this shot much better and I really can't see what the fuss is about. I can't pronate my wrist independently of activity in my forearm and shoulder.

CC

First is correct, second not. you can pronate independently of the shoulder but of course not of the forearm since there is no sviwel in the wrist joint.:)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
5263's takes are mostly right on the money. I'd incorporate more the motions of the forearm and shoulder, better yet lifting of the legs, than that of the wrist in the swing and pronation to produce the WW effect.

Wrist movement helps -- and there is some movement being not completely fixed --, but it's the weakest link in the chain and best left for pros, ie Nadal, Fed, to do who train daily.

I also agree with those that said WW FH is like any other (classic) FH. Charlie confirms that it is just a variation of the classic FH.

All FHs are the same. The only difference, if it must be pointed out, is the amount of low to high and how much on the side/in front you contact the ball. That's all.
 

1HBH Rocks

Semi-Pro
Wrist movement helps -- and there is some movement being not completely fixed --, but it's the weakest link in the chain and best left for pros, ie Nadal, Fed, to do who train daily.

Hear the buzzer... that's plain wrong.

The actual movement can be produced in two ways and the upcoming action actually depends on your posture as you drive your racket forward. In short, the way you take your racket back will inexorably have in impact over how you swing your forehand as it will put you in a position that will be good or bad as the racket starts its forward action.

The forearm for an amateur or a pro will have the exact same role and the role will depend entirely on your posture... of course, using the word more broadly to define how exactly every single joint of your body is placed with regard to the rest. One single glimpse in your entire swing dictates what will follow.

The nice part is that, if you take your racket back properly and have adopted a good posture, the forearm muscles will exploit the wrist joint without you to have to move it. If you do it right, you aren't forced to tweak the racket face position and the follow-through happens as a reaction; if you do it wrong -- and believe me, most PROS (not only amateurs, but pros and even slam winning pros) fail at it -- you'll have to hit your forehand the hard way by manipulating your racket position at every instant of your swing... it typically results in less power and inconsistency.

The very best news you could hear is that this portion of the swing is accessible to average Joe! It's not hard to train; it's actually EASIER to learn that than to do it otherwise and it IS a miraculous solution: you get improved power, improved control, improved consistency all at once.


The trick is to get your hand in a specific position during the acceleration phase: it has to be supinating and ought to show a pronounced ulnar deviation. To get that reaction right and so it moves your racket face properly through contact, you just need to end your take back with a pronated forearm -- yup, as dumb as that. It also has a third benefit: it contracts the muscles use for the shoulder external rotation which will enable you, in the following 0.050 second to tap into a stretch-shortening cycle in your shoulder muscles which perform the internal rotation required to hit the ball. The pronated wrist ensures that the racket face will be slightly closed at contact as, once you start swinging forward, your forearm will naturally supinate until the pronators are sufficiently stretched to be contracted (you therefore benefit here from a second stretch-shortening cycle). It's this rapid contraction that forces you from a supinated position to a fully pronated position which creates the windshield wiper effect.

It's not your shoulder, not your legs, not anything of that... your entire body provides you with the energy that is used to stretch your forearm pronators, but it's these muscles which perform the movement. If you fail to meet the right body positions to tap in this, your wiper finish will be like that of Hewitt: it will be purely aesthetic.
 

1HBH Rocks

Semi-Pro
All FHs are the same. The only difference, if it must be pointed out, is the amount of low to high and how much on the side/in front you contact the ball. That's all.

Secondly, pros don't hit nearly as "low to high" as you probably have in mind. All of their forehands are stuck super-horizontally. From the slot position (where the racket faces the ground) up to contact, there's an average slope of about 15 degrees... what you see as being so vertical occurs AFTER contact.

Thirdly, the WW forehand isn't just a finish; it's also how you use your body. A true classical forehand is played from a neutral or closed stance while you step forward into the stroke and finish above your shoulder -- the swing path is completely different and there's much less lateral acceleration. On the modern version, you rely instead on angular momentum: you rotate to hit your stroke instead of trying to step forward. Alongside of it, it's actually awkward to not pronate your forearm through contact to some degree on the modern forehand and the WW finish occurs as a consequence of what previously occurred. Of course, you'll still see players finishing above their shoulders and players still using a neutral stance to hit -- however, they won't be swinging the same, despite the seeming resemblance.
 
G

guitarplayer

Guest
Some people just aren't meant to do the windshield wiper forehand and that's ok. Look at pro golfers! So many different looking swings. What is important is finding the swing that works for you and is consistent.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I cant pronate my wrist without moving my forearm and without some lifting in my shoulder.

CC

You can't pronate your wrist at all (or at least any meaningful amount).
As you say, you pronate your forearm and the wrist is on it, so it follows,
just like if a beetle was on your arm, it would follow. The beetle does not
cause the pronation.

For rkelly,...this is an important distinction to understand that it is not a "wrist"
movement, it is not about cutting slack and more about trying to get right.
Mainly it is important because so many think that wrist action is a big part of
modern Fhs. You can hit a modern Fh holding the racket with 2 fingers and no wrist
at all.
 
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connico

Rookie
Some people just aren't meant to do the windshield wiper forehand and that's ok. Look at pro golfers! So many different looking swings. What is important is finding the swing that works for you and is consistent.

Yes, different take backs and different plane of attack. But they all pronate. They all lag their hands.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Some people just aren't meant to do the windshield wiper forehand and that's ok. Look at pro golfers! So many different looking swings. What is important is finding the swing that works for you and is consistent.

You guys make it sound like it's some sort of ultra special stroke or something that only the elite could do.

Just contact the ball way out in front of your body and if you want topspin you must swipe the ball in the rainbow shape. There's no other other to hit it.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Not sure if McEnroe lagged his hands on his forehands.
He definetely locked his wrists and hit late on his topspin backhands.
I know he's an anomoly, but this IS theory talk, isn't it.
Personally, my wrist hinges, my elbow hinges, but my shoulders do all the pronating because it's a ball joint. That's me, might be diffrerent for you all.
And I hit just fine without pronating, just not as loose and relaxed. I can stop my followthru with the racket pointing old school AT the target.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Not sure if McEnroe lagged his hands on his forehands.
He definetely locked his wrists and hit late on his topspin backhands.
I know he's an anomoly, but this IS theory talk, isn't it.
Personally, my wrist hinges, my elbow hinges, but my shoulders do all the pronating because it's a ball joint. That's me, might be diffrerent for you all.
And I hit just fine without pronating, just not as loose and relaxed. I can stop my followthru with the racket pointing old school AT the target.

I think they're talking about current pros using modern technique.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
That is the BLIND leading the BLIND.
Modern technique doesn't volley. If you decide to pass on this skill, is it really MODERN? There is nothing new about volleying, serving, or overheads. The "newness" of the forehand is only really in looping topspin shots, and that can be hit several different ways.
 

Ducker

Rookie
WW forehand is just like any other forehand. It looks like the windshield wiper because of the pace of the incoming ball. It the incoming ball is fast, you don't need as more horizontal racket movement to compress the string against the ball. If the ball is slow and you try to do a WW forehand, you will end up framing the ball.

So, let's get the normal forehand down. First you need to learn how to use the racket by design. In modern tennis, the racket is supposed to be used like a hammer for leverage.

If you are focusing on the grip, you are missing the point. The grip, as in where you place your index knuckle has very little to do with how to use the racket for leverage. This is why so many old people are at awe when they realize Federer is using a eastern-ish grip. It is not about the grip. No matter what grip you use, you are using the racket like a hammer.

If you use the racket like a hammer (the string bed being the hammer strike), you will naturally trace the ball flight by the racket butt and do some kind of inside out movement. But please, please, don't focus on the useless details. All you need to do is think of it as using a hammer and make sure you are supporting the string bed with your palm. So the string bed is basically your palm, that's how you get the feel of the racket string bed.

You need to figure out how to grip the racket to give you these feelings, because different people have different palm size and are using different grip size.

Now, about how to generate the top spin. For the love of god, don't brush at the back of the ball. Nobody on earth use a brushing motion to brush something traveling at 100km/h toward him. Why don't these people teach brushing up the back of a bullet? ;D

All you need to do is strike upward and forward to the incoming ball. It should feel like the ball is cupping onto the string and you are forcing it out. It is that split second you have total control of the spin and pace of the ball. You are basically hitting a nail with your racket and you want the nail to go in with a slightly upward angle. Now get that feeling down. When you get that, you can increase the upward strike and decease the forward velocity by 10%. Do it 10% at a time until you found what you want.

Let me know if that helps.



Should be a sticky people could learn alot from reading this one. Take awhile for poeple to grasp.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
That is the BLIND leading the BLIND.
Modern technique doesn't volley. If you decide to pass on this skill, is it really MODERN? There is nothing new about volleying, serving, or overheads. The "newness" of the forehand is only really in looping topspin shots, and that can be hit several different ways.

Lee you are making a lot of excellent post these days, but modern technique inordinately includes an excellent volley form; it's modern style of play you must mean, in that they don't volley much.

Also while you can hit a loopy modern Fh if you want to, it has nothing to do with being modern. Modern has brought in the most biting and powerful topspins
ever.
 
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