dannythomas
Professional
Not really. Henin has superior movement, better variation, better volleys, better tactical brain. Her one handed backhand is one of the best ever. Seles hit the ball harder, had a better serve - nothing else is better.
Just wanted to say Steffi Graf is in no way the best ever!
- Thread starter davey25
- Start date
Not really. Henin has superior movement, better variation, better volleys, better tactical brain. Her one handed backhand is one of the best ever. Seles hit the ball harder, had a better serve - nothing else is better.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Oh, they were doing that in many of the Seles threads. In their eyes, she's not responsible for failing to be fit, eating issues, failure to handle the generation after her own...just about anything one can imagine, and she's not responsible for it.
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
Don't you see what a complete utter **** you are? Court, Lenglyn, Wills?
Face it daisy, you are completely clueless. I imagine you don't even play tennis. And just study records. What a complete joke.
davey25
Banned
Sorry you are right. Wozniacki and Dementieva and their 60 mph 2nd serves would just pummble Court in her prime right. :lol:
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
Based on a 2 year pattern? Tennis history shows up 2 year patters rarely hold for any players. I agree she would have won a few more majors without the stabbing, but beyond that is anothers guess.
Seles had many incredibly close calls both years she won the French in 1990 and 1992. She also had other noteable defeats on clay like the one sided Rome finals she lost to Sabatini. I dont think she was unbeatable on clay by any stretch despite her 3 straight titles. She almost certainly would have won at the French atleast once more without the stabbing, but many more of them is purely speculation. She didnt exactly make an open and shut case for herself by failing to make a single French Open final in many years upon her return.
I agree but I think Graf was more likely to challenge and beat Seles on clay than Seles was to beat Graf on grass. You are free to disagree of course, but the stats and evidence at hand would seem to go along with what I said as well.
Just to remind you the competition Graf would face after the Seles stabbing was the same Seles herself faced while #1 in addition to the apparently overrated and not so great Graf. Sabatini, Sanchez, a very old Martina, a very young Jennifer. So if Graf steamrolled weak opposition the same would be true of Seles. Just saying.
Lionheart392
Professional
Good post, although she did make the final in 1998.
egn
Hall of Fame
Seles coming off missing the tour for two years managed to serve up Graf a bagel...you mean to tell me a prime Seles playing every week would not have been able to take her down.
In 1993 Seles had beaten Graf with not too much trouble and lets not forget she put down a beating on Sabatini 6-2, 6-1...another tough opponent. Seles and Graf were so far ahead that they put almost regular beatings on their fellow top 10 players you can't call Graf unstoppable there just look at what Vicario did to her at the French and the US Open that year. Not to mention if Vicario could beat Graf on a fast surface I don't think it is hard to say Seles could as well who managed to win 3 World Championships on an even faster surface beating Navratilova. Seles was a lot better on slow hardcourts than most think.
She was more than likely going to win it and thats not even to be mean but the French Open clay seemed to just be perfect for Seles. She didn't do as well on other clay courts but in France she was just perfect.
Nobody ignores Court most just kind of feel had she had more competition showing up in Australia she would have had a few less majors. With King, Bueno, Wade and a handful of others never showing up there to play it was a bit odd. Not to mention many years when she would win the Aussie she didn't do as well in either of the other two grass court majors at the time. 1970 was a truly amazing year but most will agree that the Australian Open count is a bit bloated as it usually had a field of lackluster talent compared to Wimbledon and The Us Open during that time and the French as well.
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
She still lost the match like all 7 matches she has played vs Graf on a medium or faster surface, and a year later she had been back on tour over a year and she lost much easier. Graf had all the pressure on her in that 95 U.S Open final, for Monica she was treated as a heroine in her comeback and everything was gravy and once that phase wore off her results got alot worse, and Graf was also dealing with her dads recent jailing at the time. She was playing far better at the 93 U.S Open than the 95 edition, heck she was playing better in 94 with a major injury when she lost to Sanchez Vicario in the final than the 95 edition. Remember she had lost to Amanda freaking Coetzer just before that U.S Open and nearly lost to her again in the 1st round there.
So 3 sets is not much trouble, LOL!
Sabatini was already clearly on way down by that point. Prime Sanchez Vicario >>> past her prime Sabatini. Like I said Sabatini is WAY overrated anyway.
Vicario didnt even play her at the French that year. Did you even follow tennis around then? And what does the U.S Open have to do with the Australian Open.
Sanchez Vicario was never an easy opponent for Graf. She was a very bad matchup for Graf so for Graf to beat her for the loss of only 2 games showed she was in rare form.
If she could have why didnt she do it in 7 tries? Like I already said Sanchez Vicario was a bad matchup for Graf.
Even Chris Evert couldnt win 4 French Opens in a row. I wouldnt assume it would be an automatic for Seles at all.
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federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
And what is impressive about a bagel when you still LOSE the match.
egn
Hall of Fame
Seles was also playing far far better in 90-92 unless of course you want to say Seles just coming back on tour was in much better condition then graf.
I said not too much trouble first of all include all the words. Second of all after the first set Seles was in obvious control watch it.
Sabatini beat your savior in a US Open final.
Sorry I lost Pierce in the sentence it was supposed to read look what Pierce and Vicario did to her at the respective slams. The US Open was a hard court surface and my point about Vicario was on the comment of Seles being unable to win a US Open. Seles could beat Vicario down all the time and if Vicario found a way to beat Graf whats to say Seles might have not been able to. She was only two time defending champion. Note I did follow tennis.
Really? I can pull up at least 5 Vicario Graf matches where Vicario didn't win more than 3 games and a handful more where it was not close at all.
1990 Tokyo Graf def. Vicario 6-1, 6-2
1990 Ameila Island Graf dev. Vicario 6-1, 6-0
1990 US Open Graf def. Vicario 6-1, 6-2
1990 Leipzig Graf def. Vicario 6-1, 6-1
1994 San Diegio Graf def. Vicario 6-0, 6-2
I'll give you in 1993 Vicario started to pose a decent threat and in 1994 Vicario became a bad match up for Graf but outside of that one year, the year Vicario won 2 majors the year Seles who owned the head to head with Vicario her whole career pre and post stabbing was missing. However prior to 1993 Vicario couldn't even beat Graf on her best surface clay other than the French Open final of 1989 in which I am still not sure how she won it but hey she managed it.
Did you watch tennis back then? Cause in Chris Evert's prime she opted out of 3 French Opens giving players like Ruzici free slams. Evert would have easily won 4 straight had in her best years she played 4 straight so don't even make that comparison. It has no weight whatsoever tennis changed really quickly and back when Evert played she obviously did not see the French Open as important as World Team Tennis which is what she chose over it. However Evert easily would have won 4 straight had she played 76 and 77. Although she might have lost it in 78 but I find it highly unlikely she could have had 7 straight...Again this is all speculation. However why does how many you win in a row matter? Nobody had ever won 5 US Opens when Fed did it? Nobody had ever won 6 Wimbledons but Navra did it? Winning one previously has nothing to do with winning the next one. Each tournament is unrelated to the next. Just cause you won 3 doesn't mean you are less likely to win a fourth especially if you are 19, still number 1 in the world and still one of the best players on clay.
Okay then justification for Graf being able to beat Seles in 93 at France better not be going 10-8 in the third, what's impressive.
Point simply being Seles not near her best was able to dominate Graf for a point in time during a match had Seles been closer to top form..I mean it's just a thought.
What I find more funny is although I agree some Seles fanatics are crazy is you all simply believe that in 93-95 SELES WOULD HAVE STOLEN NOTHING FROM GRAF. She had had only won 3 majors two years running and been number 1, yet SELES WOULD HAVE MANAGED NONE of the majors GRAF won and still had what at max 12 majors. If you HONESTLY believe that...okay. However I think it would have been more like Seles 15 Graf 18..but if you believe otherwise FINE.
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federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
Playing far better in 1990 than in her initial return in 1995? The year she lost to Linda Ferrando at the U.S Open vs the year she thrashed everyone at both the Canada and U.S Opens other than Graf.
Did I say Seles was in better condition than Graf when she first came back. Heck Seles was NEVER in better condition than Graf. All I said was when she first came back she was treated like a glorified heroine upon her return and of all the top players she was the only one with no pressure at her at all at that point, the pressure was on the other top players especialy Graf, Sanchez, Martinez, Novotna, and Sabatini to perform vs a player who had missed 28 months (and very strangely chose to return as a fat ass with tendonitis) to mantain their reputations. She had also seen them play for years while out, they hadnt seen her in 2 and a half years and had to get an idea of her game all over again. Hence why Seles's best results of her entire comeback were her first 3-4 tournaments, especialy her first 2, and dwindled backwards from there once she returned to life as a more regular tour player.
I did watch it. Graf controled the 1st set, Seles the 2nd, and the 3rd set was very hard fought with 5 deuce games but Seles won all the important points. It was a very competitive match and on Seles's best surface and Graf's worst. Seles would normally beat Graf on rebound ace but Graf played far too well in 1994 to lose to anyone.
LOL remind me who my savior is. My all time favorite players are Evonne Goolagong, Kim Clijsters, Serena Williams, and Lindsay Davenport, but even none of those would I refer to as my savior. Sabatini has never beaten any of those people in a U.S Open final.
My only point is Sabatini is a much worse player than Sanchez Vicario. 4 slams to 1 speaks for itself, regardless all the excessive overpraise Sabatini seems to get on this forum. And Sabatini had the benefit of the Seles stabbing, just as Sanchez did, Sanchez was atleast good enough to take advantage and clean up the scraps when Graf was upset or injured (and give her some amazing matches otherwise), Sabatini was not. Sabatini seems to be praised by certain posters here as superior to nearly all 2 or 3 slam winners, and comparable to a 4 slam winner like Sanchez, and she has done nothing to deserve that praise. And it is funny some credit Sabatini as being a Graf rival but wont consider Sanchez. What a joke, compare their performances in slams vs Graf and it is easy to see who is more of a rival pending any definition. Sabatini should not be put on a level wit Sanchez, but instead on a level with people like Novotna and Martinez who arent that far from her age, played in the same era, and have similar career achievements in virtually everyway- not only 1 slam but in other stats as well.
The thing is you chose 1993 which was strange as Graf was actually in top form that year, along with 1996. Seles was far more likely to beat Graf at the U.S Open in either 1995 (not in top form at the time of the Open) or 1994 (injured in final which is only reason she lost final to Sanchez if you actually watched the match) if she did.
1. Sanchez beat Graf about a quarter of the times they played overall, but 4 times total in slams. She did fare better vs Graf (especialy in slams) than even post stabbing Seles, a mid 30s Navratilova, and than Martina Hingis. Are Seles, an aging Navratilova, or Hingis better players than Graf? Yes Sanchez was a bad matchup for Graf.
2. Notice almost all of the blowout matches you posted were in 1990. Yeah exactly.
Probably but who knows. Had everyone played from 1976 to 1978 she might have lost in 1 of 76 or 77 to say Evonne Goolagong in an upset (the only one giving her close matches on clay) and thus not ever reached 4 in a row. The likes of Ruzici and Barker benefited not only from the absence of Evert but nearly everyone else. Unlike Seles fans I prefer to deal in fact than speculation, and the fact is nobody has won 4 in a row there and while it is possible I think it is far from certain the obviously non GOAT caliber Seles would have been the one to do it.
Why was she more likely to lose in 1978. If anything had everyone played the French her toughest competition would have been Goolagong in 75 or 76, Austin in 79 and 1980. Navratilova pre 1982 was zero threat whatsoever to Evert on clay, heck she wasnt even a threat to her on grass until 1978.
Federer and Navratilova > Seles
Graf vs Seles on clay: 3-3. Graf vs Seles on faster hard courts: 4-0 (1-0 on carpet, 2-0 on grass)
Point simply being Seles not near her best was able to dominate Graf for a point in time during a match had Seles been closer to top form..I mean it's just a thought.
I questioned some of the specific slams you chose. That is all. I think slams like the 95 French Open and 95 U.S Open were far more likely than the 93 U.S Open or 94 Australian Open. But that is just me. I couldnt care much about either Graf or Seles on a personal level but enjoy mocking how overrated Seles is by many people.
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The funny thing about these reasons is it has to take a combination of those great players to beat Graf's achievement. From this list, Every appears three times, Navratilova two times, and the rest once each.
Joe Pike
Banned
Graf only 18?
Which 4 (!) slams would Graf not have been able to win?
BTW, how many slams did Seles win or had an opportunity to win them because Steffi was injured or ill? Steffi didn't play AO 92, AO 95, AO 96, Wim 97, USO 97, AO 98, FO 98, USO 99.
Not even talking about Seles's slam wins in the early 90s when Steffi was down due a nasty blackmail scandal for almost 2 years.
EXACTLY......so why do so many Selestials INSIST that it was a given that just because Seles had won majors in the past meant it was an automatic she would win them again?
I am still waiting for someone to explain the meaning of the term domination.....as in "Seles dominated Graf."
I mean how do you "dominate" someone you have a losing H2H record against?
How do you dominate someone you beat a grand total of 5 times in a 10 year period?
How do "dominate" someone who on just one occasion.....and it occurred in a period of one month......did you beat more than one time in a row?
I mean beating a rival twice in a row on one occasion = domination?
I mean just how is that possible?
HOW?
HOW????
egn
Hall of Fame
93 French
94 Aussie
95 US are 3 I feel would have been Seles had she not been stabbed.
With chances at 95 French and 93 US. Are these hard to believe Seles could have won? Given the fact that at the time of the stabbing she was easily the best clay courter at the moment and the best all around hardcourt player as Graf was in a nasty slump still, Vicario was not in her prime and was Seles whipping girl and Navra/Saby were falling out of their respective prime. Those are 3 of Graf's slams I feel Seles could have easily had taken. It does not seem unreasonable to say the number 1 player in the world who was dominating the tour would have continued to do so if not stabbed? Am I right?
egn
Hall of Fame
What's funny is this whole paragrpah is just completel bull. Sabatini was definitely a tougher match for Graf than Vicario was first of all and probably a tougher one than Seles. She has a better head to head against the both of them. I agree she should not be put on the level of Sanchez but people put her on the level of say Mauresmo because she was definitely better than Novotna and Martinez. She owned Graf in 1991 won 4 straight on a multitude of different surfaces. I'm sorry but beating Sabatini in a blow out is just as impressive as beating Vicario in a blow out as Sabtini was a dangerous player to the top players. I mean just as Vicario how good was Sabatini who oddly enough leads there clay court head to head 10-4...
Well I did not choose 1995 because people would complain she technically was in it and 1994 does not count becuase Graf did not win it so how is she stealing it away from Graf?
You said "Sanchez was never an easy opponent for Graf.." I disagreed and said outside of the year 1993-94 Graf whopped Sanchez.. You then also discredit Sabatini as being a worthy win like that of Sanchez when both Seles and Graf struggled more against Sabatini. Look at the head to heads and the overall head to heads. Graf rarely got a 14 straight set wins off Gabby while she got 17 straight set wins off Vicario. She lost 3 times more to Gabby at one point lost 5 straight to Gabby and Gabby has 4 straight set victories compared to Vicario's two. (Also in general I'm pretty sure Gabby has the better win percentage.)
I just chose 78 because it seemed like potential to have the deepest field. Not as if it would really have mattered as Evert lost no matches on clay in any of those years I'm pretty sure.
I see what you mean. Personally I don't think Seles is close to GOAT but I think her being stabbed hurts Graf's case and hell well never know anyway on which slams she would have won or would not have won.
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federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
NO, NO, NO, no, no, no to all of this. This paragraph is only further evidence of how insanely overrated Sabatini seems to be on TW. Lets break down what you said:
Sabatini was definitely a tougher match for Graf than Vicario was first of all and probably a tougher one than Seles. She has a better head to head against the both of them.
This is simply not true. Sabatini's 11-29 overall head to head with Graf is worse than Seles's 5-10, though better than Sanchez's 8-28. However most important in the slams when it matters most it is:
Seles 4-6 vs Graf
Sanchez 4-9 vs Graf
Sabatini 1-11 vs Graf
Of the three Sabatini is by far and away the easiest of the 3 for Graf to beat when it mattered most.
Well I did not choose 1995 because people would complain she technically won it and 1994 does not count becuase Graf did not win it so how is she stealing it away from Graf?
I agree she should not be put on the level of Sanchez but people put her on the level of say Mauresmo because she was definitely better than Novotna and Martinez.
It is funny you say that for a few reasons. First of all I dont consider Mauresmo any better than even say Novotna. Mauresmo isnt one of the better even 2 slam winners. She is probably the 4th weakest #1 ever although a big distance behind (or better) than the 3some of Ivanovic, Jankovic, and Safina.
Now back to Sabatini it is funny how you and others say she was so much better than Novotna and Martinez when she played in the same era and her career achievements are very similar to theirs. And she is almost the same age as either too, she is less than 2 years younger than Jana and less than 2 years older than Conchita. Here are some career stats of the three:
Sabatini- 1 slam singles title, 3 slam finals, 27 singles titles, 2 WTA Championship titles, 16 tier 1 or tier 2 titles, highest rank- #3
Martinez- 1 slam singles title, 3 slam finals, 33 singles titles, 16 tier 1 or tier 2 titles, highest rank- #2
Novotna- 1 slam singles title, 4 slam finals, 1 WTA Championship title, 24 singles titles, 13 tier 1 or tier 2 titles, highest rank- #2
Sabatini is probably the best of that trio but it is by nowhere near the margin as potrayed by some. And Novotna at her best is clearly better on grass and arguably better indoors (inspite of Gaby's 2 WTA titles), while Conchita at her best is probably better on clay and similar on grass.
She owned Graf in 1991 won 4 straight on a multitude of different surfaces.
This fact is actually the first thing brought up to reference how poorly Graf was playing for her standards, and how badly she was slumping, during this period of time; rather then this as an example how amazing Sabatini was during this period. Funny how outside this period of extreme sucess Sabatini had vs a slumping Graf when she won 7 of 8, her overall career head to head was otherwise 4-28. So basically since you like breaking down periods for Sanchez, outside of a less than 2 year period Graf completely owned Sabatini.
I mean just as Vicario how good was Sabatini who oddly enough leads there clay court head to head 10-4...
I am sure Sabatini would rather have 3 French Open titles as opposed to 0 than the 10-4 head to head lead on clay. And they never played at the French where most likely the mentally tougher Sanchez Vicario would have prevailed.
I'm sorry but beating Sabatini in a blow out is just as impressive as beating Vicario in a blow out as Sabtini was a dangerous player to the top players.
Like I mentioned Sabatini was clearly already on the way down by the time of the 93 Australian Open, which if you followed womens tennis closely at the time you would realize. In case you dont believe me though here are some examples of this:
-Sabatini won ZERO titles between May 1992- November 1994. This a player who won 27 career WTA titles, going 2.5 years without one
-the Australian Open would be Sabatini's only slam semifinal of 1993. And she reached that only after surviving match point on a controversial line call to a pre prime/Jim Pierce stage Mary Pierce in the quarters
-as you trumpet Sabatini's supposed success vs Graf, her final ever win would be April 1992, as she rode a 4+ year losing streak to Graf into retirement
So no the smackdown wasnt that amazing as Sabatini's career was clearly already on the downslope at that point. She certainly wasnt the kind of threat Sanchez Vicario in 94 was, or particularly the kind of threat to Seles in slams (even if she werent on decline) as Sanchez is to Graf.
This is simply not true. Other than the huge upset in the French Open final a prime Graf was whopping on an extremely pre prime Sanchez from 87-1990. From 1991 onwards Sanchez was never an easy opponent for Graf. Lets look at their head to head history more closely:
1991- Sanchez whoops Graf 6-0, 6-2 in the French Open semis, arguably the most humiliating slam defeat of Graf's career. In fact they played only 2 matches this year and Graf won the other one 7-6 in the 3rd set in the Berlin final.
1992- Sanchez only beats Graf once in 7 meetings this year but boy that is a big meeting- the U.S Open quarters where Sanchez beats Graf in straight sets, costing Graf any chance of overtaking Seles as top player of 1992. By now she has already tripled Sabatini's career total of slam wins over Graf. And in their 7 matches this year in 5 of 7 Sanchez either won or lost in 3 sets (as I presume you are giving Sabatini credit for 3 setters with Graf, as it certainly isnt based much on wins, especialy important ones).
1993- Sanchez beats Graf in 2 finals this year- the Miami final (the biggest non slam along with the WTA Championships) and Hamburg. The year ends with Graf topping Sanchez in an exciting 4 set final in the WTA Championships.
1994- Needles to say Sanchez did serious damage to Graf this year but you already conceded that.
1995 and 1996- They only played 4 times, all in slam finals, but produced 2 of the all time classic WTA finals at Wimbledon 95 and French Open 96.
In fairness to Sabatini she was a mild threat to Graf in 1988-1989 too. She was the only person to beat Graf more than once in this span, in fact giving her 3 of her 5 defeats however still losing all their important matches- losing to Graf in 4 slam semis or finals, the Olympic final of 88, and the 89 WTA Championships; thus still relegating her to a lesser showing against Graf than FO and U.S Open conquerer of Graf of 91 and 92 Sanchez Vicario (and if you want to point out how poorly Graf was playing then compared to her 88-89 standard well what will that say about the majority of Sabatini's career 11 wins over Graf or Seles's dominance during this period for that matter). Sanchez in fact was more of a threat to Steffi from 1991 to 1993 as Sabatini was anytime to Graf outside of the late 1990-early 1992 period. And Sanchez likewise did more damage and threat to Graf in big matches in 94-96 as Sabatini did to Graf even the 1990-1992 period. And even outside of his 6 year period she still managed a slam final win over Graf, matching what Sabatini managed vs Graf her whole career (and in Gaby's case achieved vs a far lesser version of Graf than the 89 one).
A simple rule to remember too. Threat = beats in SLAMS.
And read up earlier to what I already mentioned. If you want to cherry pick, Sabatini was a joke opponent for Graf outside the period from the 1990 U.S Open to 1992 clay court court season where Graf was in for her what was a huge slump and Sabatini was playing the tennis of her life. Only 3 or 4 wins remaining out of 30+ matches.
No Graf did not struggle more against Sabatini. This is where your perception of reality is badly skewed. Yes Seles did struggle more against Sabatini. As I already mentioned Seles was a nightmare matchup for Sanchez Vicario, while Sanchez was a much tougher one for Graf, which is why you cant draw exact parallels using Graf's matches with Sanchez Vicario.
ROTFL where the heck are you getting your stats from. Graf's longest ever win streak over Sanchez was a 7 match win streak of a prime Graf vs an up and coming Sanchez. Graf began her so called rivalry with Sabatini with a 11 match win streak when both were highly touted up and comers almost the same age. Sabatini ended it with yet another losing streak, this time of 8 matches.
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selesian
Rookie
Where in my post did I say I expected her to make ALL the slam finals in 1993-95? I simply stated that she had made the finals of the previous eight slams, and there was no reason to doubt that her appearances in finals would've suddenly dried up without the stabbing.
Pre stabbing Monica won the ones that mattered most on clay, therefore she had the edge.
Their head-to-head in 1991 has no bearing on what could have happened in 1993. Sure, Graf had better results, but it simply means they would've met in more finals than before.
Monica had won 3 of the 4 slam finals they contested, so I would say she had the mental edge in the big occasions --- especially if it got real close.
LMAO
Erm...no.
selesian
Rookie
Poor little german Shteffi being discriminated against by those bigotted Americans. LOL.
selesian
Rookie
Those wins came within a short space of time -- and there would've been more in the coming years had it not been for the stabbing.
It was developing into a great rivalry. Tennis fans were robbed of some classic matches between the two.
selesian
Rookie
Seles wasn't only losing to top players, though. She had quite a few bad losses to unheralded players -- Foretz, Lucic, Studenikova, Bedanova etc.
And as tragic as it is, there's no comparison between the death of a family member and trauma caused by a murder attempt on oneself, especially to a teenager -- not even close.
Whilst I agree that Henin had a more all round game, that alone doesn't guarantee success -- underachiever Mauresmo (a more naturally gifted player) is proof of that.
Graf was a one dimensional player too. She had an awful overhead and would fluff easy volleys. She only had her serve, forehand and athleticism going for her.
selesian
Rookie
A very weak period in women's tennis.
davey25
Banned
Indeed, after all the exact same group of women Seles was also winning (though less dominant) against.
davey25
Banned
She was down 4-1 and 2 breaks to Akiko Kijimuta at the 1992 French, and would have lost if Kijimuta didnt badly choke at the end. Those kind of "bad" losses were going to happen eventually, they do for everyone. Especialy as Monica was eventually past her prime at a certain point, irregardless of the stabbing. 2 of those losses you mentioned were at Wimbledon which is the first significant place they would come. Foretz was in some minor event and it is while Seles was dealing with an illness of some kind.
Lucic shouldnt even be included anyway. She went on to reach the semis beating the previous years finalist as well, and then nearly beating Graf in the semis. If she was playing well enough to make the semis and nearly beat Graf, she was playing well enough to beat Seles on grass.
selesian
Rookie
Wish they had Hawk-Eye back then. It's quite possible that Monica could've wrapped up that match in straights.
selesian
Rookie
And Graf fans have the cheek to call Seles fans deluded, lol
Oh well, that voids everything that Seles won during those two years then.
selesian
Rookie
Not the same. Graf didn't have Seles to deal with during that period, whereas Seles had Graf during her time at the top.
davey25
Banned
Since Graf is an overrated lucky chump according to you that hardly is a huge booster to her competition. So basically Seles faced the vastly overrated Graf, an ancient Navratilova who was somehow still active when 99.99% of pros are retired, and the same clown brigade that made up the rest of the WTA elite back then you refer to. And it is not like she was playing Graf that often anyway, only 5 times and 3 times in slams in the 34 months before the stabbing.
I would agree on one thing. The field back then wasnt that strong. Neither Seles or Graf even faced the kind of field Serena did from 1999-2005 which Serena dominated and won over half her current slams against.
Joe Pike
Banned
FO 93?
Are you sure Seles would have made the finals? In 1992 she won only with 6-4 in the 4th round against Kijimuta. And trailed Sabatini 2-4 in the 3rd set in the semis. Fair chance that she wouldn't even have made the final.
And when Seles was #1 pre-stabbing she and Steffi played 2 clay-court matches. Seles lost in Hamburg 91 and beat Steffi only with 10-8 in the 3rd set in the FO 92 final. So even IF Seles had made the final there was a 50/50 chance that Seles would have lost.
AO 94?
In 1993 Steffi struggled against Sanchez in the AO semis, won only with 75 64. And one week later she lost the Tokyo final to Navratilova.
Fast-forward to winter 1994. Steffi destroyed Sanchez in the AO final with 60 62. And beat Navratilova easily one week later in Tokyo with 64 62.
Steffi was clearly better, no?
Considering that Seles beat Steffi narrowly in the AO 93 final (86-78 on points played) is it reasonable that a vastly superior AO 94 Steffi would have beaten Seles. Provided Seles had made the final. Which we don't know.
USO 95?
Graf beat Seles in the final. Although she was under extreme pressure.
Against a fanatical crowd.
Joe Pike
Banned
So?
You think Seles would have continued to beat Graf with 74-73 on points played or with 10-8 in the 3rd set in FO finals? But continued to lose non-slam clay matches against her?
Don't be silly.
Joe Pike
Banned
Steffi had an excellent overhead, one of the best of her time.
She had a decent volley, better than almost all of today's top players.
She had the best slice BH of all time.
And by far the best footwork.
Her stops were excellent, especially on clay.
Yes, not even talking of her forehand and serve.
BTW, what is this "murder attempt" all you Selestards keep fantasizing about?
Joe Pike
Banned
Yes, only with Evert, Navratilova, Mandlikova, Sabatini, Sanchez and Seles in the mix ...
davey25
Banned
Almost none of those players were in their primes. Martina was maybe at the tail end of her prime. Evert was at the tail end of her career, she was 32-34 years old and well past her prime. Mandlikova was never the same after early 1987. Sanchez Vicario and Seles were in diapers back then. That leaves Martina and Sabatini, a 1 time slam Champion, as her closest rivals.
Joe Pike
Banned
...
Oh well, that voids everything that Seles won during those two years then.
No, Seles's wins in 1990-92 were as legit as Steffi's wins in 1993-95.
Making excuses is selesian.
I'm not selesian.
Joe Pike
Banned
A Graf who lost 5 matches in a row to Sabatini.
And 3 matches within 13 months against Novotna.
Please ...
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
Graf vs Sabatini- Sanchez.
Grand Slam head to head:
Sanchez FOUR wins in 13 meetings.
Sabatini ONE win in 12 meetings.
Nuff said.
Joe Pike
Banned
1999-2005?
Wasn't that the time when a certain Jennifer Capriati managed to win 3 slams?
What do you think - in which period between 1960 and 1999 would a player like her have been able to win 3 slams?
Joe Pike
Banned
Navratilova had won 2 slams in 1985, in 1986 and 1987. And she had a 67-3 win/loss streak in 1989/90 with those 3 defeats coming at the hands of Steffi.
1987 was the 4th-best year for Mandlikova ever (was 50-13 win/loss).
Sabatini was a great player who would have won many slams if it weren't for Graf.
davey25
Banned
1999-2005?
Wasn't that the time when a certain Jennifer Capriati managed to win 3 slams?
What do you think - in which period between 1960 and 1999 would a player like her have been able to win 3 slams?
What are you saying, that Capriati sucks. Capriati was an excellent talent who set many youngest ever records (though not for winning slams or being #1 but many things leading up to that). Her career got badly sidetracked by pressure and personal problems but eventually she returned to form better than ever and fulfilled her long held potential by winning 3 slams.
Capriati defeated Hingis 3 times, Davenport, Seles, Clijsters twice, Serena, Mauresmo, on to way to these 3 slam titles.
So Capriati wouldnt have been able to win 3 slams in the 60s when Lesley Turner and Nancy Richey each won 2? Or how do you know someone like Virginia Wade who won 3 slams in the 70s (well her first slam in the late 60s but she was mostly a 70s player) who was owned by the entire top 5 of her generation was any better than Capriati.
If clay court only great Conchita Martinez can reach 2 slam finals not on clay, I dont think it is impossible for Capriati to have won 3.
Joe Pike
Banned
davey25
Banned
Yeah she was so bad she beat Graf in the Olympic final soon after Graf destroyed Seles in the Wimbledon final, and gave Graf a bagel set in 1993. She was so bad she very nearly won the U.S Open at age 15, and beat Navratilova at Wimbledon and the great (according to you) Sabatini at the U.S Open at age 15.
Joe Pike
Banned
Capriati was a full-grown woman at age 15.
Who lost 06 16 against Graf two months after her surprise win at the Olympics.
And who lost 06 16 against Graf again in 1999. When Graf was over-the-hill and Capriati in her prime (won her 3 slams in the next 3 years).
davey25
Banned
Look I am not saying Capriati is an all time great but she isnt this hopeless player you seem to think she is. And what kind of player is a "full grown women" at age 15, is that some kind of joke. And 1999 was not Capriati's prime. Her prime was definitely 2001-2003, and the closest thing she had to a prime other than that was 1991-1993 (where yes Graf owned her, nobody is saying Capriati was a good as Graf except an idiot like Ultra2Grail).
Do you really think Capriati at her best (early 2000s) isnt better than Turner and Richey who won 2 slams each in the 60s. Or how is she much worse than Sanchez Vicario who won 4 slams, their head to head is nearly tired despite that Sanchez was playing Capriati mostly at age 15 (I think on occasion at 14 and 16 too), and Capriati is clearly a more gifted ball striker than Sanchez although obviously inferior in other respects. Davenport is a better ball striker than Capriati, but much weaker in movement, defense, and mental toughness. Kind of the reverse of Sanchez vs Capriati. So when you compare the 3 they all beat and lose to the other in key areas and each has 3 or 4 slams.
Selestials.....Unite...... and answer the questions....please darlings?!
Thanks loves:twisted:
egn
Hall of Fame
According to law in America she is not a full grown woman to 17 or 18 depending on the states...
Joe Pike
Banned
Then Capriati should have been fined.
Because at age 15 she had the body of a grown-up woman.
No comparison with 15-year-old Navratilova, Graf or Henin.
So Capriati reaching #6 in the rankings at that age was no surprise. She had some talent, no question. But her winning 3 slams in the early 00s shows what a weak era that was between Graf's retirement and Henin's rise.
davey25
Banned
Or maybe it shows Capriati was actually a really good player. Imagine that.
Capriati beat Martina Hingis in the finals of 2 of her slam wins and the semis of the other. Are you going to say Hingis sucks too. Capriati also beat Clijsters twice, Davenport, Seles, Mauresmo, and Serena as well in the quarters, semis, or finals of her 3 slam wins.
Are you saying Capriati in her mid 20s once she got herself back on track wasnt a better player than at 15.
Capriati beat Martina Hingis in the finals of 2 of her slam wins and the semis of the other. Are you going to say Hingis sucks too. Capriati also beat Clijsters twice, Davenport, Seles, Mauresmo, and Serena as well in the quarters, semis, or finals of her 3 slam wins.
Are you saying Capriati in her mid 20s once she got herself back on track wasnt a better player than at 15.
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