Just wanted to say Steffi Graf is in no way the best ever!

[Datacipher]

Yeah, we are the "dimbulbs" for questioning your theory that every female tennis player since the 60's has most likely been doping.

WHAT AN IDIOT. I wrote that every sport "NOW" has WIDESPREAD doping. I did not write that "EVERY" female player since the 60's has most likely been doping. You have to love? hysterics like this, who can't even read simple sentences.

I said it "BEGAN' in the 60's, Billy Jean King said so, if you don't like that, argue with her.

You're the dimbulb. You're just too dim to recognize it. LOL.

LOL! LOVE IT! You are right, I AM the dimbulb! There is no way to fight such a witty and elegant line! Oh wait...I got one...you're to dumb to know you're dumb! YES! GOTCHA! OWNED! I will be laughing about that line...as I'm sure every tw poster is right now...for weeks!

 

[Datacipher]

^
You can make a poll by asking each members in here whether they would use drug if they were a pro tennis player. That will give what the % of all the players on the tour using drug.
Don’t use anonymous poll.

That doesn't make any sense at all....obviously. Naturally, nobody can put themselves in that position reliably, and more importantly, TW posters are not reflective whatsoever in character, experience, background, or mindset to pro players.

However, I would say that were millions of dollars, my chosen career/dream, that I have worked for since childhood, and my future on the line, I would be severely tempted to use, when knowing full-well that many of my opponents do.

I think most people, were they honest, would sympathize with that. There IS a reason why doping is widespread, and no, it's not because they are all jerks. You might well do the same thing.

BUT save your sympathy for the poor schmucks who decided they wanted to sprint naturally, or become the world's first Mr. O naturally, or fight professionally without drugs, or set world swimming records without EPO....a few lucky ones got college scholarships....on the other hand, they should be proud when they look in the mirror.

 

[LDVTennis]

WHAT AN IDIOT. I wrote that every sport "NOW" has WIDESPREAD doping. I did not write that "EVERY" female player since the 60's has most likely been doping. You have to love? hysterics like this, who can't even read simple sentences.

I said it "BEGAN' in the 60's, Billy Jean King said so, if you don't like that, argue with her.

First of all, document that BJK said that. I want to see the direct quotation. I do not believe she said that. You're saying she did has no credibility with the rest of us. Prove it or shut up.

As to what you said, here is the direct quote: "HERE. LET ME SPELL IT OUT....SELES, MARTINA (both), HENIN, PIERCE, MJ FERNANDEZ, SABATINI, ALL THE women out there now...most of who's names I don't even know. THEY ARE ALL PRIME CANDIDATES for DOPING. EVERY PROFESSIONAL athlete has a better chance of being doped than not. LET ME REPEAT, MOST pro sports are NEAR 100 percent DOPED now, and tennis, if not 100% has WIDESPREAD doping, which began, at the latest, in the 60's, as mentioned by none other than Billy Jean King." See link http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4904909&postcount=190.

By calling every female tennis player a "prime candidate for doping," you pretty much implicated everyone. I did not draw the wrong conclusion. In fact, the fool (rolandg) who agreed with you summed up your argument as follows: "Completely agree. Doping is so deeply entrenched in every professional sport, I don't believe any professional athlete is clean, especially in tennis, which has some of the highest prize money and endorsement possibilities." See link http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4905461&postcount=196 This fool knew what you were saying, just like the rest of us. What made him a fool is that he agreed with you. If he was wrong to draw this conclusion from your post, why did you not point this out in your reply to his post? See link http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4906738&postcount=199. Instead, you said this: "Well of course. You'd have to be completely ignorant not to realize this."

The fact remains that you have presented no proof for your wild theory. The only thing you've proven is that there are truly stupid people in this world.

 

[thalivest]

I think doping is much more prevelant amongst females than males too. Most doping are basically male hormones type drugs, they aid women far more than men. I am not saying there arent men that dont dope, there are many I am sure, but cheating is much more widespread amongst the women I think. This is proven by the 70s and 80s when the East German women were cleaning up in certain sports where the men were not a factor. They had a sophisticated doping program for women and they knew that the men would not gain the same effect. And the Chinese women in various sports in the 90s as well. Russian women in cross country skiing for many years, etc....

 

[Datacipher]

First of all, document that BJK said that. I want to see the direct quotation. I do not believe she said that. You're saying she did has no credibility with the rest of us. Prove it or shut up.

As to what you said, here is the direct quote: "HERE. LET ME SPELL IT OUT....SELES, MARTINA (both), HENIN, PIERCE, MJ FERNANDEZ, SABATINI, ALL THE women out there now...most of who's names I don't even know. THEY ARE ALL PRIME CANDIDATES for DOPING. EVERY PROFESSIONAL athlete has a better chance of being doped than not. LET ME REPEAT, MOST pro sports are NEAR 100 percent DOPED now, and tennis, if not 100% has WIDESPREAD doping, which began, at the latest, in the 60's, as mentioned by none other than Billy Jean King." See link http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4904909&postcount=190.

By calling every female tennis player a "prime candidate for doping," you pretty much implicated everyone. I did not draw the wrong conclusion. In fact, the fool (rolandg) who agreed with you summed up your argument as follows: "Completely agree. Doping is so deeply entrenched in every professional sport, I don't believe any professional athlete is clean, especially in tennis, which has some of the highest prize money and endorsement possibilities." See link http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4905461&postcount=196 This fool knew what you were saying, just like the rest of us. What made him a fool is that he agreed with you. If he was wrong to draw this conclusion from your post, why did you not point this out in your reply to his post? See link http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4906738&postcount=199. Instead, you said this: "Well of course. You'd have to be completely ignorant not to realize this."

The fact remains that you have presented no proof for your wild theory. The only thing you've proven is that there are truly stupid people in this world.

THE ****** is now actually trying to present my argument as being RolandG's statement.

AND THE ****** adds that by calling everyone a "candidate", I have "pretty much" implicated everyone. WHAT A DOORKNOB!

 

[Datacipher]

I think doping is much more prevelant amongst females than males too. Most doping are basically male hormones type drugs, they aid women far more than men. I am not saying there arent men that dont dope, there are many I am sure, but cheating is much more widespread amongst the women I think. This is proven by the 70s and 80s when the East German women were cleaning up in certain sports where the men were not a factor. They had a sophisticated doping program for women and they knew that the men would not gain the same effect. And the Chinese women in various sports in the 90s as well. Russian women in cross country skiing for many years, etc....

An interesting proposition....they are sure as heck have a dramatic effect on males as well (see Mr. O contenders ;-), but do they help females relatively more? No way to measure, but it seems plausible.

 

[thalivest]

An interesting proposition....they are sure as heck have a dramatic effect on males as well (see Mr. O contenders ;-), but do they help females relatively more? No way to measure, but it seems plausible.

I think they do for the simple reason nearly all performance enhancers contain some form of male hormones, the really strong ones quite a bit. So the biggest things that differentiate men from women are negated somewhat and bring the women who take these substances closer to being a man in a sense, rather than just being an even stronger men like the men who take it. But the real thing that convinced me is the 70s and 80s East German sprinters, swimmers, even speed skaters. During the period everyone now knows they were heavily doped the women were doing extraordinary and the men were doing virtually nothing. Then when the Berlin Wall came down the womens results went back drastically and are now almost on par with the men. There is no way this is coincidence. That plus the Chinese female swimmers in many meets in the 90s, yet the men doing nothing. Extremely small chance that this is just coincidence.

Of course that isnt to say that there isnt alot of doping in all mens sports (just look at baseball and cycling, LOL) and that the men benefit a great deal from it as well. The newer drugs are also more sophisticated so perhaps athletes of the last century arent the best reference in a sense either.

 

[Datacipher]

I think they do for the simple reason nearly all performance enhancers contain some form of male hormones, the really strong ones quite a bit. So the biggest things that differentiate men from women are negated somewhat and bring the women who take these substances closer to being a man in a sense, rather than just being an even stronger men like the men who take it. But the real thing that convinced me is the 70s and 80s East German sprinters, swimmers, even speed skaters. During the period everyone now knows they were heavily doped the women were doing extraordinary and the men were doing virtually nothing. Then when the Berlin Wall came down the womens results went back drastically and are now almost on par with the men. There is no way this is coincidence. That plus the Chinese female swimmers in many meets in the 90s, yet the men doing nothing. Extremely small chance that this is just coincidence.

Of course that isnt to say that there isnt alot of doping in all mens sports (just look at baseball and cycling, LOL) and that the men benefit a great deal from it as well. The newer drugs are also more sophisticated so perhaps athletes of the last century arent the best reference in a sense either.

Yes, it is a bit hard to compare as the drugs, and stacks of drugs are constantly changing.

I do agree with the rest. As I said, it certainly seems plausible. Undoubtedly, there is a point at which the levels of given hormone would have all the effect they are ever going to have; and indeed, women begin at a totally different starting point. Of course, a bit hard to know, as I said, unfortunately, the drugs seem to have very mixed results on even those of the same gender....some respond like.....gangbusters, some seem to get a much more moderated affect.

One could make up another theory like: men have more receptors and better capacity to use the additional hormones, and with their differences in muscle and bone structure, are better able to utilize increases in strength/stamina etc. BUT, I do tend to suspect that women probably do get more relative benefit than men!

 

[Limpinhitter]

An interesting proposition....they are sure as heck have a dramatic effect on males as well (see Mr. O contenders ;-), but do they help females relatively more? No way to measure, but it seems plausible.

I saw a live match between Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova back in the late 80's. They walked right by me on my way into the stands. Two things struck me about these two: (1) Evert was taller than I expected, about the same height as Navratilova, and (2) Navratilova's muscularity was beyond any female I've ever seen, ever. The bulk and muscularity of her legs were scary looking. The muscularity and vascularity of her arms were scary looking. And I'm a former competitive power lifter. I've seen some stong dudes. She made Serena look dainty.

Was she juiced? I can't say for certain, but, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Datacipher]

I saw a live match between Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova back in the late 80's. They walked right by me on my way into the stands. Two things struck me about these two: (1) Evert was taller than I expected, about the same height as Navratilova, and (2) Navratilova's muscularity was beyond any female I've ever seen, ever. The bulk and muscularity of her legs were scary looking. The muscularity and vascularity of her arms were scary looking. And I'm a former competitive power lifter. I've seen some stong dudes. She made Serena look dainty.

Was she juiced? I can't say for certain, but, it wouldn't surprise me.

You're the first person I've seen who also noted the vascularity. I too noticed this, and I too have spent time with bodybuilders, powerlifters etc. The thing that used to strike me is the vascularity in her arms, sometimes DURING heavy, prolonged cardiovascular exercise! Are you kidding me!? lol. I'd wonder...uh...what does she look like then when pumped??

 

[MotherMarjorie]

However, Marjorie, even a Graf must be questioned. She would have been a prime candidate for doping, AND, doping does not affect everyone equally...not by any means. Even if every one of her opponents had exactly the same doping usage, the performance increases would not be equal. As a result, to be frank, every single Olympic and pro record today, is...invalid. Some people who do realize how widespread doping is will still argue that if they are all using, the "best" person will still win. This simply isn't so....and that's sad. The real best will never be known, due to doping.

Mother Marjorie doesn't think that the sport of tennis is as affected by "doping" as other sports. She says this because while tennis requires endurance, it requires great skill and mental attributes to excel in the sport.

Steffi Graf never possessed the physical characteristics of an athlete who "doped." A case might be made for other tennis players who looked uncharacteristically muscular, but "doping" would better benefit athetes in other sports.

Given the character Graf had shown throughout her career, it wouldn't seem appropriate or logical to label her as a "doper."

FYI, questioning Graf's character just cost you 5 Mother Marjorie princess points. You have been warned.

Mother Marjorie Ann

 

[Lionheart392]

Mother Marjorie doesn't think that the sport of tennis is as affected by "doping" as other sports. She says this because while tennis requires endurance, it requires great skill and mental attributes to excel in the sport.

Steffi Graf never possessed the physical characteristics of an athlete who "doped." A case might be made for other tennis players who looked uncharacteristically muscular, but "doping" would better benefit athetes in other sports.

Given the character Graf had shown throughout her career, it wouldn't seem appropriate or logical to label her as a "doper."

FYI, questioning Graf's character just cost you 5 Mother Marjorie princess points. You have been warned.

Mother Marjorie Ann

Mother Marjorie shows her wisdom once again

 

[MotherMarjorie]

Mother Marjorie shows her wisdom once again

Thank You, Lionheart. Mother Marjorie appreciates you.

Mother Marjorie Ann

 

[Datacipher]

Mother Marjorie doesn't think that the sport of tennis is as affected by "doping" as other sports. She says this because while tennis requires endurance, it requires great skill and mental attributes to excel in the sport.

Steffi Graf never possessed the physical characteristics of an athlete who "doped." A case might be made for other tennis players who looked uncharacteristically muscular, but "doping" would better benefit athetes in other sports.

Given the character Graf had shown throughout her career, it wouldn't seem appropriate or logical to label her as a "doper."

Stick to mothering you mother. How lovely when people who obviously know absolutely nothing about doping think they should spout their ignorance.

All of us hope, and I have frequently written, that the high skill level required for tennis may insulate us somewhat from the 100% doped sport. However, ANYONE who has played at a high level knows JUST how important sheer physicality is. Let's see:

Ability to recover between points
Ability to recover between matches
Enhance endurance
Enhance strength
enhance speed
Enhance confidence (and yes, some argue, "focus", athletes are using drugs for this to)
drop weight
gain muscle

Yes, why in the heck would tennis players want that? I am sure they just abide by a gentleman's agreement not to!! (oh except all the ones already caught...but the REST....)


Paragraph 2 says it all: uncharacteristically muscular. There is no more simple-minded and ignorant belief than that. Sure...Graf was not brute like Coria or Korda, or 86 Mcenroe when he got super skinny, and LOST weight. We can all tell. Not everyone can be friggin huge like Lance armstrong after all! So wrong on so many levels.....doping doesn't equal steroids, steroids don't equal muscle mass, good lord. Ignorance...

 

[struggle]

given that the list of "doping" procedures/drugs goes up every year
it is not unreasonable to think that some of the players in the past may
have been using things that are now illegal.

so what?

 

[Joe Pike]

Stick to mothering you mother. How lovely when people who obviously know absolutely nothing about doping think they should spout their ignorance.

All of us hope, and I have frequently written, that the high skill level required for tennis may insulate us somewhat from the 100% doped sport. However, ANYONE who has played at a high level knows JUST how ...

Stop trolling.

 

[Datacipher]

given that the list of "doping" procedures/drugs goes up every year
it is not unreasonable to think that some of the players in the past may
have been using things that are now illegal.

so what?

I'd go much further tbuggle! Put it this way. In my life, I trained athletes for a long time, and became personally aware of just how commonplace this stuff is, not just for pros, but for amateurs, and frankly, those who simply want to look "good". It becomes a bit of an inside joke at some point....there are those who simply think they got that way by working out "hard", or with "dedication", and there are those who know what's really going on...

But I don't expect people to know this...and in my experience, most don't even want to know it. Twenty years ago, when I'd tell people, Arnie or Sly were juiced to the hilt? I'd get evicerated by rabid fans. Fifteen years ago, when I'd tell people that steroids and EPO were in tennis, I"d get evicerated by rabid fans.....

after all that time, I'd HOPE that awareness has been raised a bit more...but STILL, people don't want to know. I mean...you can make it OBVIOUS eg. baseball, Ben Johson etc...and people will still deny it, and get angry at you just for talking about it....

But in regards to tennis and your point, put it this way, one may disagree on how widespread it is, but you would have to be ******** to not know that yes, it's in tennis, and that some players ARE and HAVE used. Why?

Well....Mac hid it for 2 decades, but turns out he used in the 80's. BJK says a woman was using in her day! Coria, Rusedski, Korda, Ulirach, and others have been caught....37 cases of Nandrolone alone. It isn't hard to find out how silly drug testing is...how easily bypassed it is, at this point, it's mostly for image purposes, and this has been acknowledged by experts. So....

1.we know for a fact that "some" players have been using for decades now
2.we know for a fact how widespread it is in some other sports
3.we know for a fact that drug testing is largely ineffective, and it's really to the point where only the most stupid get caught
4.we know for a fact that other pro players have hinted at it in tennis, and a couple have even stated it outright...one going so far as to say it's "widespread"
5.we know for a fact that tennis is a hugely demanding sport physically

So...what is more plausible:
1.all other players, besides the ones caught, have been, on their own honor, deciding not to use

OR

2.some percentage of players are doping (now and in the past)

Yes, I'd say it is not just "reasonable" to assume players of the past and present have used...I'd say it is a bizarre fantasy to believe none did (AGAIN OTHER than the ones already caught...a pretty darn large number)

And, yes, add to that, steroids weren't even illegal at times in the past!

 

[rolandg]

I'd go much further tbuggle! Put it this way. In my life, I trained athletes for a long time, and became personally aware of just how commonplace this stuff is, not just for pros, but for amateurs, and frankly, those who simply want to look "good". It becomes a bit of an inside joke at some point....there are those who simply think they got that way by working out "hard", or with "dedication", and there are those who know what's really going on...

But I don't expect people to know this...and in my experience, most don't even want to know it. Twenty years ago, when I'd tell people, Arnie or Sly were juiced to the hilt? I'd get evicerated by rabid fans. Fifteen years ago, when I'd tell people that steroids and EPO were in tennis, I"d get evicerated by rabid fans.....

after all that time, I'd HOPE that awareness has been raised a bit more...but STILL, people don't want to know. I mean...you can make it OBVIOUS eg. baseball, Ben Johson etc...and people will still deny it, and get angry at you just for talking about it....

But in regards to tennis and your point, put it this way, one may disagree on how widespread it is, but you would have to be ******** to not know that yes, it's in tennis, and that some players ARE and HAVE used. Why?

Well....Mac hid it for 2 decades, but turns out he used in the 80's. BJK says a woman was using in her day! Coria, Rusedski, Korda, Ulirach, and others have been caught....37 cases of Nandrolone alone. It isn't hard to find out how silly drug testing is...how easily bypassed it is, at this point, it's mostly for image purposes, and this has been acknowledged by experts. So....

1.we know for a fact that "some" players have been using for decades now
2.we know for a fact how widespread it is in some other sports
3.we know for a fact that drug testing is largely ineffective, and it's really to the point where only the most stupid get caught
4.we know for a fact that other pro players have hinted at it in tennis, and a couple have even stated it outright...one going so far as to say it's "widespread"
5.we know for a fact that tennis is a hugely demanding sport physically

So...what is more plausible:
1.all other players, besides the ones caught, have been, on their own honor, deciding not to use

OR

2.some percentage of players are doping (now and in the past)

Yes, I'd say it is not just "reasonable" to assume players of the past and present have used...I'd say it is a bizarre fantasy to believe none did (AGAIN OTHER than the ones already caught...a pretty darn large number)

And, yes, add to that, steroids weren't even illegal at times in the past!

Again, completely true. I know from experience that teenagers at junior and school athletic championships during the 90's in the UK were using PED's you could order on the internet, and, before that, via post, and this was just to impress senior selectors or parents. And people still seriously believe that people aren't juicing when there are millions of dollars and worldwide fame up for grabs? You find people's morals and ethics quickly go out the window when personal glory is involved.

And it's true, people still have this 80's believe that the only people juicing are either really muscular or have deep voices and facial hair.

 

[Raiden]

Default Just wanted to say Steffi Graf is in no way the best ever!

davey25
Banned

Good riddance.

Given Davey25's long history of legitimate posts here, it's hard for me to believe he would have done something so egregious in any single post that it would warrant banning! A warning about something...OK...but....banning? Definitely seems troubling...

If a person has had THAT many posts without a problem, no matte what rule he may have broken, it should be taken as a one-time offense unless done repeatedly...

Garbage.

Maybe that's precisely what that got him banned. He thought that his "long history" as you put it gave him a false illusion that he was permitted to misbehave.

In other words he was practically begging to be banned. The fact that he may have been more civilized in the previous years is irrelevant. In fact it should count against him. Longtime posters are usually becoming wiser as they get older - but with a minority of posters it seems to go in the opposite direction: they become more juvenile and trollish as they get older... maybe, perhaps because of a sense of false security that comes as a result of "escaping" bans through the years

Cuz quite frankly I was getting tired of his never ending Seles-v-Graf/Serena-v-Henin/etc-v-etc brawls all over this forum (opening countless flame-threads and now just as I was thinking his fights with Selestards was over, he turned his trollguns against Steffi.

 

[thalivest]

There is nothing about this thread that appears to be anti Graf. It is merely pointing out things that could keep Graf from being considered the greatest ever. She still is certainly a greater player than Seles, but Seles is not the standard for the greatest ever, not even close.

 

[Raiden]

^ Who then? Navratilova presumably? Well, let's see then, what was her claim to fame? That's right, her discipline and athleticism which helped raise her tennis level above her peers. But then let's look at the underreported athleticism of Graf, shall we?

Guess what? Graf was the best, not only because of her tennis talents and her variety game and shot-making abilities, but ALSO because she was (arguably) the greatest athlete that ever appeared on a tennis court. Among tennis players no one is her equal (among the men only Borg and Nadal are her peers in terms of being a gifted athlete). All three of them Borg, Graf and Nadal are such phenomenal athletes that they would have had an excellent career in a different sport. I remember the young Graf was so quick that they measured her and she would have qualified for the 800-meters at Seoul Olympics! You got that? That's world class athleticism - that's "cream of the crop" stuff we're talking about here.

Name one other tennis player who would have qualified for the Olympics in any other sport? That's right, there is none. Ergo, even by that "disciplined athlete" measure Graf really was the best
.

 

[Datacipher]

Good riddance.

Garbage.

Maybe that's precisely what that got him banned. He thought that his "long history" as you put it gave him a false illusion that he was permitted to misbehave.

In other words he was practically begging to be banned. The fact that he may have been more civilized in the previous years is irrelevant. In fact it should count against him. Longtime posters are usually becoming wiser as they get older - but with a minority of posters it seems to go in the opposite direction: they become more juvenile and trollish as they get older... maybe, perhaps because of a sense of false security that comes as a result of "escaping" bans through the years

Cuz quite frankly I was getting tired of his never ending Seles-v-Graf/Serena-v-Henin/etc-v-etc brawls all over this forum (opening countless flame-threads and now just as I was thinking his fights with Selestards was over, he turned his trollguns against Steffi.

Misbehave? In what way? That is what we wondered. You say he was asking to be banned, but then reference arguments over women's players....um...yeah....if making threads like that were cause for banning, most of this board would be gone. Be more specific, if you think there was legit reason for him to be banned!

 

[Datacipher]

^ Who then? Navratilova presumably? Well, let's see then, what was her claim to fame? That's right, her discipline and athleticism which helped raise her tennis level above her peers. But then let's look at the underreported athleticism of Graf, shall we?

Guess what? Graf was the best, not only because of her tennis talents and her variety game and shot-making abilities, but ALSO because she was (arguably) the greatest athlete that ever appeared on a tennis court. Among tennis players no one is her equal (among the men only Borg and Nadal are her peers in terms of being a gifted athlete). All three of them Borg, Graf and Nadal are such phenomenal athletes that they would have had an excellent career in a different sport. I remember the young Graf was so quick that they measured her and she would have qualified for the 800-meters at Seoul Olympics! You got that? That's world class athleticism - that's "cream of the crop" stuff we're talking about here.

Name one other tennis player who would have qualified for the Olympics in any other sport? That's right, there is none. Ergo, even by that "disciplined athlete" measure Graf really was the best
.

OK...here we go. Only a troll would claim to be tired of such threads and then a second later post rhetorical tripe like this.

PS. Since when did she have times qualifying her for Seoul? Did you make this up, or are you repeating urban legend?

I am genuinely curious, because originally, her coaches simply said that her times as a PRETEEN were so good, that they were interested in recruiting her into the track program instead of the tennis program. Is there new info? (I don't follow the women), or is this YET AGAIN more TW fanboy embellishment?

 

[thalivest]

^ Who then? Navratilova presumably? Well, let's see then, what was her claim to fame?

Well lets see:

-a record 9 Wimbledon titles in singles
-a record 8 WTA Championship titles
-a tie for the overall record Wimbledon titles at 20
-a record 167 tournament singles titles (Graf didnt even reach 100 with mostly only singles to focus on)
-was a key player of 3 different decades- 70s, 80s, 90s
-a record 6 consecutive slam wins
-a record 74 match winning streak in singles
-a record 31 womens doubles Slam titles
-an 86-1 record in her best ever year

Yeah though only a troll could even argue Martina as the greatest ever.

 

[Raiden]

if making threads like that were cause for banning, most of this board would be gone. Be more specific

You being a banned troll-fanboy are clearly incapable of just clicking the link on davy's profile and finding out all the recent "mega-troll-fest" threads that s/he and only s/he started and actively participated in:

• Just wanted to say Steffi Graf is in no way the best ever!
• Washed up Henin will never win another slam.
• Poll: Seles vs Serena- who rates higher
• Henin should have never returned
• Serena vs Seles- how is it even a question
• The obsession of Seles fans with Graf is mind boggling
• Serena Williams to win more slam titles than Federer
• It will be an all Williams final at Roland Garros this year
• How on earth can Monica Seles be considered the greatest ever by some people?
• Graf dominates biggest rivals on their best surfaces
• Poll: How many slams would Seles have won without the stabbing.

The highlighted one is my favorite :mrgreen: what irony!

OK...here we go. Only a troll would claim to be tired of such threads and then a second later post rhetorical tripe like this.

PS. Since when did she have times qualifying her for Seoul? Did you make this up, or are you repeating urban legend?

I am genuinely curious, because originally, her coaches simply said that her times as a PRETEEN were so good, that they were interested in recruiting her into the track program instead of the tennis program...

No. There is a different between PROactively fighting with opponents, in fact INITIATING many/most of those fights (by opening the threads) and between merely "setting the record straight".

or is this YET AGAIN more TW fanboy embellishment?

You're accusing me of what I'm not: a fanboy of a tennis legend.

What is worse is your predicament: you are a fanboy of a troll

 

[Raiden]

Well lets see:

-a record 9 Wimbledon titles in singles
-a record 8 WTA Championship titles
-a tie for the overall record Wimbledon titles at 20
-a record 167 tournament singles titles (Graf didnt even reach 100 with mostly only singles to focus on)
-was a key player of 3 different decades- 70s, 80s, 90s
-a record 6 consecutive slam wins
-a record 74 match winning streak in singles
-a record 31 womens doubles Slam titles
-an 86-1 record in her best ever year

Tennis is A LOT more than rushing to the net at every opportunity and flicking a volley over the net... and doing that again and again and again, from childhood until past menopause.

I'm not saying that those records aren't impressive, because they are, in a big way. It's just that there ought to to be more to "GOAT tennis" than mere "consistency on grass". That's why Navratilova's 1984 winning streak (regardless that they were against mug opponents except Chrissy) is to me more impressive than her deliberate (and successful) quest to collect as many Wimby and doubles trophies as possible.

 

[thalivest]

Tennis is A LOT more than rushing to the net at every opportunity and flicking a volley over the net... and doing that again and again and again, from childhood until past menopause.

I'm not saying that those records aren't impressive, because they are, in a big way. It's just that there ought to to be more to "GOAT tennis" than mere "consistency on grass". That's why Navratilova's 1984 winning streak (regardless that they were against mug opponents except Chrissy) is to me more impressive than her deliberate (and successful) quest to collect as many Wimby and doubles trophies as possible.

Well considering how many titles she won from 1987 onwards when the grass court season consisted of Wimbledon and a couple weeks of smallish grass tournaments which players generally play 1 or 0 of a year, I would imagine her success in winning so many tournaments and doubles titles goes beyond just her grass expertise.

And Martina was a complete player. Evert and Graf had a hard time hitting clean winners against from the baseline since she was so quick and her groundstrokes were alot better than realized. She was a nightmare opponent all around when she was anywhere near her prime. Even in old age it took great efforts to beat her.

Would you say Graf is the most ultimately completely player? Almost never hits anything but a slice backhand, doesnt come to net much, return of serve suspect. Martina the net rusher was more comfortable hitting a topspin backhand than Graf the baseliner.

 

[Raiden]

thalivest, I do agree with you that prime Navratilova was superior on practically all surfaces. But once she went over her prime, it seemed that she became even more focused on serve/volley... that seemed to be her strategy. Going back to the "mother surface" where it all begun for her.

Here is why Graf was the greatest tennis player, i.e. greater than Evert and yes, even Navratilova. Here is a page from the New Yorker that makes my point - it dates from 1987 (i.e. way before she achieved GOAT status by sweeping all the slams and and even doing it in one year, so you have no excuse):

 

[thalivest]

Interesting that back in 1987 Evert says there were no chinks in Graf's armor. Apparently there was at this point considering Martina destroyed her in the Wimbledon and U.S Open finals both that year.

 

[Polaris]

Given Davey25's long history of legitimate posts here, it's hard for me to believe he would have done something so egregious in any single post that it would warrant banning! A warning about something...OK...but....banning? Definitely seems troubling...

If a person has had THAT many posts without a problem, no matte what rule he may have broken, it should be taken as a one-time offense unless done repeatedly...

Data, the banning of davey25 is not unexpected. The guy has several alternate usernames (this has been proven for some usernames and strongly suspected for others). His posts are legitimate in that they don't break any forum rules, but taken over a period of time, you'll see that they are attention-seeking and manipulative. Observe the stark contrast between this thread ("Graf is not the best") and his more recent exhortations about "Graf is the best." It is possible for people to change opinions, but this guy changes them diametrically about all players all the time using multiple IDs to do so. We aren't taking 2 or 3 IDs here. The number is most likely in the double digits ! He has been doing this over the past 5 years.

Most likely, that is what got him banned.

 

[Raiden]

Interesting that back in 1987 Evert says there were no chinks in Graf's armor. Apparently there was at this point considering Martina destroyed her in the Wimbledon and U.S Open finals both that year.

Graf had a flu during that US Open final. But that's not even that much relevant in this case. Meaning, I don't pretend to know what "destroyed" means to you, but to me and, allow me to dare say everyone else, "destroying" does NOT include winning two matches with the help of tie-breaks.

 

[LDVTennis]

THE ****** is now actually trying to present my argument as being RolandG's statement.

AND THE ****** adds that by calling everyone a "candidate", I have "pretty much" implicated everyone. WHAT A DOORKNOB!

Still, waiting on that quote from BJK where she said something to the effect that steroids have been prevalent on the women's tour since the 60's.

In the meantime, here is something else BJK recently said: Datacipher is an idiot.

I'll provide a source for this quote as soon as you produce a source for the other BJK quote.

 

[Datacipher]

Data, the banning of davey25 is not unexpected. The guy has several alternate usernames (this has been proven for some usernames and strongly suspected for others). His posts are legitimate in that they don't break any forum rules, but taken over a period of time, you'll see that they are attention-seeking and manipulative. Observe the stark contrast between this thread ("Graf is not the best") and his more recent exhortations about "Graf is the best." It is possible for people to change opinions, but this guy changes them diametrically about all players all the time using multiple IDs to do so. We aren't taking 2 or 3 IDs here. The number is most likely in the double digits ! He has been doing this over the past 5 years.

Most likely, that is what got him banned.

Polaris, I don't defend multiple ID's....though...we've got several trolls doing that right now. If indeed, Davy was doing that, then that is legit reason for a ban!

The attention-seeking...well again...I'd say the posts in that category outnumber the thoughtful, sincere posts (posters) here....

 

[Chopin]

I fully support the TW moderators and encourage them to exercise additional bans on other posters who threaten the integrity of the Boards.

Thank You,
Chopin

 

[Warriorroger]

He could (the rightfully-so-banned OP) be reading all of our messages right now and respond under a different ID, it feels like a Hitcock movie.

 

[Polaris]

He could (the rightfully-so-banned OP) be reading all of our messages right now and respond under a different ID, it feels like a Hitcock movie.

It isn't like a Hitchcock because there is no mystery. This dude with a dozen identities also goes by the name of thalivest. He has stalked these forums under various identities and manipulated its members for the better part of 5 years. You can bet that he is reading our messages.

I hope he abandons other IDs and settles on one. From past experience, however, my hopes are low. When his opinion changes, he generates a new ID.