Just watched Djokovic's RG presser...

ChrisRF

Hall of Fame
He will have a good chance of lifting his second French Open title if Nadal loses before the final or if he meets and beats Thiem in the semi final.

OP, don't rule out Thiem either. He truly believes he is the second best clay court player today, especially at RG. When he plays well without making many errors, he's one of the hardest players to defeat on clay.
Thiem is far away from being the second best clay-courter. Maybe he was it in 2018, but now he has reached one Masters SF. In Monte Carlo and Rome he was a non-factor. Considering his usual Slam performances apart from RG 2018 I think he won’t be much better there.

And for his belief: In Madrid he said in German TV before the Federer match that he would never see himself as a favourite against Roger, no matter where they Play.
 

TheMaestro1990

Hall of Fame
Djokovic in 2017 still wasn't as bad as Nadal was in 2015. Nadal back then was losing to some very bad players, it would be just funny if prime Djokovic would drop sets to him.
Djokovic was bad, really bad in most parts of 2017. He lost to Istomin, Kyrgios twice, Goffin, humiliated by Thiem at the French, Berdych. This was just from 6 months btw. He didn't play after that in 2017. I think Djokovic in 2017 was as bad as Nadal in 2015. Pretty similar imo.
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
Djokovic was bad, really bad in most parts of 2017. He lost to Istomin, Kyrgios twice, Goffin, humiliated by Thiem at the French, Berdych. This was just from 6 months btw. He didn't play after that in 2017. I think Djokovic in 2017 was as bad as Nadal in 2015. Pretty similar imo.
At least after the loss to Istomin he only lost to players from the top-20. Against Kyrgios in Acapulco and Goffin in MC he was just outplayed to be honest. In the other losses he was bad for sure, especially against Thiem and Berdych. But he didn't lose to the likes of Fognini and Brown like Nadal did in 2015.
 

TheMaestro1990

Hall of Fame
At least after the loss to Isromin he only lost to players from the top-20. Against Kyrgios in Acapulco and Goffin in MC he was just outplayed to be honest. In the other losses he was bad for sure, especially against Thiem and Berdych. But he didn't lose to the likes of Fognini and Brown like Nadal did in 2015.
Well, in a sense you've got a point. But the drop off from dominating the tennis world, 2017 came as huge surprise. Djokovic losing to Goffin and Berdych easily? And the disaster against Thiem, although a top player, was embarrasing.
 
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NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
At least after the loss to Isromin he only lost to players from the top-20. Against Kyrgios in Acapulco and Goffin in MC he was just outplayed to be honest. In the other losses he was bad for sure, especially against Thiem and Berdych. But he didn't lose to the likes of Fognini and Brown like Nadal did in 2015.
Nadal lost to players at Wimbledon that were outside the top 20 in 2012, 2013 and 2014. Not a good example to prove a point.
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
Well, in a sense you've got a point. But the drop off from dominating the tennis world, 2017 came as huge surprise. Djokovic losing to Goffin and Berdych easily? And the disaster against Thiem, although a top player, was embarrasing.
He didn't lose to Goffin easily. It was a very close match with a 6-2 3-6 7-5 scoreline. Goffin also made a comeback in the third set, risking a lot on the big points. He also beat both Federer and Nadal later that year.
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
Nadal lost to players at Wimbledon that were outside the top 20 in 2012, 2013 and 2014. Not a good example to prove a point.
In 2014 it wasn't surprising, let's be fair. Nadal was coming from a terrible clay season by his standards, who could expect him to do something on grass? The bad losses were in 2012-2013.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
In 2014 it wasn't surprising, let's be fair. Nadal was coming from a terrible clay season by his standards, who could expect him to do something on grass? The bad losses were in 2012-2013.
All those losses were bad, including 2014 when he had made the AO final, Miami final, Rome final, won Madrid and won RG. You are completely exaggerating this poor Nadal in 2014. Anytime you lose to a player outside the top 100 and you are #1, it's a bad loss.
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
All those losses were bad, including 2014 when he had made the AO final, Miami final, Rome final, won Madrid and won RG. You are completely exaggerating this poor Nadal in 2014. Anytime you lose to a player outside the top 100 and you are #1, it's a bad loss.
2014 was a poor year for Nadal. The injury in AO 2014 final was the official end of his prime. You are mentioning some better tournaments but completely ignore all the terrible losses he had. Speaking like that we can make any season look good. Why don't you mention him reaching Madrid final in 2015?
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
2014 was a poor year for Nadal. The injury in AO 2014 final was the official end of his prime. You are mentioning some better tournaments but completely ignore all the terrible losses he had. Speaking like that we can make any season look good. Why don't you mention him reaching Madrid final in 2015?
No let's clarify. After 2014 RG Nadal was poor. Before that he had a 41-6 record (87%), won 4 titles, and made 5 tier 1 finals. After RG, his record was 7-5 (58%). He was not poor the entire year like you are claiming.
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
No let's clarify. After 2014 RG Nadal was poor. Before that he had a 41-6 record (87%), won 4 titles, and made 5 tier 1 finals. After RG, his record was 7-5 (58%). He was not poor the entire year like you are claiming.
Lost to Dolgopolov in IW, and his results on clay were: had to save matchpoints against Andujar, lost in MC to Ferrer after playing a terrible match with 44 unforced errors, lost to ALMAGRO in Barcelona, would have lost to NISHIKORI in Madrid if not the injury, hardly beat Simon, Youzhny and Murray in Rome, played bad in RG as well even though he won it...Dude, that was not prime Nadal. Watch his result on clay in 2005-2013 and you will see his 2014 clay season was probably worse than all these years combined.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Djokovic has to show he is confident, but he has been very respectful to Nadal also, openly saying Nadal is the top guy here, and that is true.

Novak knows he has what it takes to win, but he also acknowledges the greatness of Rafa.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Lost to Dolgopolov in IW, and his results on clay were: had to save matchpoints against Andujar, lost in MC to Ferrer after playing a terrible match with 44 unforced errors, lost to ALMAGRO in Barcelona, would have lost to NISHIKORI in Madrid if not the injury, hardly beat Simon, Youzhny and Murray in Rome, played bad in RG as well even though he won it...Dude, that was not prime Nadal. Watch his result on clay in 2005-2013 and you will see his 2014 clay season was probably worse than all these years combined.
Barely lost to Dolgopolov at IW who almost beat Djokovic in both Cincy and Miami in 2015. It doesn't matter if he played worst than other years but his year was not poor up until that point with a 87% record, 2 Slam finals, 1 Slam win and one Masters. No.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Barely lost to Dolgopolov at IW who almost beat Djokovic in both Cincy and Miami in 2015. It doesn't matter if he played worst than other years but his year was not poor up until that point with a 87% record, 2 Slam finals, 1 Slam win and one Masters. No.
I would have to agree partially with @StrongRule on this one. I think Nadal's prime ended with the AO final loss to Wawrinka. He wasn't the same after that, and that one masters he only won because Nishikori is the living breathing version of Mr Glass. I feel his RG 2014 win was post prime, we also need to keep in mind, Djokovic himself was not well during the finals stages of RG that year, since he was throwing up during the final. IMO, Nadal beat a prime, but out of form Djokovic at RG 2014.
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
I would have to agree partially with @StrongRule on this one. I think Nadal's prime ended with the AO final loss to Wawrinka. He wasn't the same after that, and that one masters he only won because Nishikori is the living breathing version of Mr Glass. I feel his RG 2014 win was post prime, we also need to keep in mind, Djokovic himself was not well during the finals stages of RG that year, since he was throwing up during the final. IMO, Nadal beat a prime, but out of form Djokovic at RG 2014.
Indeed. Djokovic was dominating the tournament until the third set against Gulbis. Then his level suddenly dropped and he couldn't improve for the final. That was a bad match.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Indeed. Djokovic was dominating the tournament until the third set against Gulbis. Then his level suddenly dropped and he couldn't improve for the final. That was a bad match.
Djokovic was heading in, in great form, but the level dropped, the weather also impacted him and he was physically sick on the court. Nadal himself didn't play as well as some say either, he was holding his back during the serving also. The match was just poor, but since Nadal is the better clay player, he pulled it off.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
I would have to agree partially with @StrongRule on this one. I think Nadal's prime ended with the AO final loss to Wawrinka. He wasn't the same after that, and that one masters he only won because Nishikori is the living breathing version of Mr Glass. I feel his RG 2014 win was post prime, we also need to keep in mind, Djokovic himself was not well during the finals stages of RG that year, since he was throwing up during the final. IMO, Nadal beat a prime, but out of form Djokovic at RG 2014.
I actually don't disagree with him going out of his prime after AO 2014. We saw what happened in the fall of that year and 2015 so there definitely was a shift that happened. I just disagree with using a blanket statement that Nadal was poor in the whole year in 2014 when he made the first two Slam finals and 5 tier 1 finals. He was definitely poor in 2015 to me, but not the first half of 2014.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
I actually don't disagree him going out of his prime after AO 2014. We saw what happened in the fall of that year and 2015 so there definitely was a shift that year. I just disagree with using a blanket statement that Nadal was poor in the whole year in 2014 when he made the first two Slam finals and 5 tier 1 finals. He was definitely poor in 2015 to me, not the first half of 2014.
Well, I agree he wasn't poor. At RG, he picked his level up during the Ferrer quarter final match. He was playing a decent Wimbledon also. It reminded me of Federer leaving his prime back in 2010, still a great year, and doing well, but you can see the drop in level.
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
Djokovic was heading in, in great form, but the level dropped, the weather also impacted him and he was physically sick on the court. Nadal himself didn't play as well as some say either, he was holding his back during the serving also. The match was just poor, but since Nadal is the better clay player, he pulled it off.
Agree. I always say it was his least impressive RG win. In the last game of the first set he missed two break points with two terrible forehand misses, that alone said that he wasn't at his best.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Agree. I always say it was his least impressive RG win. In the last game of the first set he missed two break points with two terrible forehand misses, that alone said that he wasn't at his best.
Well, that is why the RG 2014 final gets lost in the shuffle quite often, when we speak of Djokodal at RG. Normally the ones mentioned are RG 2013, and RG 2012, and then RG 2008 for Nadal's peak level and the RG 2015 match for obvious reasons, it being a rare loss despite the form.
 
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Deleted member 763024

Guest
Djokovic's sweet spot is med to slow hard courts.

He's overrated on clay.

To wit, his best year on tour 2011, he was bested on clay by grandpa Fed

So a distant second fav to Rafa
 

StrongRule

Hall of Fame
Well, that is why the RG 2014 final gets lost in the shuffle quite often, when we speak of Djokodal at RG. Normally the ones mentioned are RG 2013, and RG 2012, and then RG 2008 for Nadal's peak level and the RG 2015 match for obvious reasons, it being a rare loss despite the form.
That match in RG 2015 was NID though. It wasn't even about the mentality, it was the simple fact that Nadal that year was getting tired after an hour of play or something. At the beginning of the year he won one very tough match in AO, but since then and until something like Shanghai losing the first set for him was 99% losing the match, he just physically couldn't come back, maximum he could was push to a third set and lose it. So for me it was clear that in BO5 he was going to lose to the first top player he will face.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
That match in RG 2015 was NID though. It wasn't even about the mentality, it was the simple fact that Nadal that year was getting tired after an hour of play or something. At the beginning of the year he won one very tough match in AO, but since then and until something like Shanghai losing the first set for him was 99% losing the match, he just physically couldn't come back. So for me it was clear that in BO5 he was going to lose to the first top player he will face.
2015 is not brought up because of the quality, it is brought up because for the first time, Nadal was out of form, while Djokovic was in form, a very rare thing for RG.
 

octogon

Professional
i agree. observed the rome trophy ceremony and it looked like he didn't gaf.
That's delusional. Novak was violently throwing his water bottles at the wall when he was sitting down after Nadal beat him in Rome. He was visibly showing his anger at losing. Of course when he gets in front of a mike at a press conference or trophy presentation, he's polite and professional and keeps his emotions in check. He's been trained to be that way for years in those situations. But away from those situations, Novak often betrays his real emotions.

Anyone acting like Novak was playing possum or didn't mind losing to Nadal because he knows the 2nd set in Rome means he can take Nadal doesn't get it.

Nadal has demons against Novak. But Novak has demons against Nadal. Especially on Clay, especially at Roland Garros. Nadal handing him a bagel and breadstick just reinforced how monumental a task it will be for him to beat a confident Nadal at Roland Garros. He knows his thrashing of Nadal in Australia hasn't put enough mental doubts on Nadal to make him an easy prey for Novak on Clay.

So all Novak's demons will be back (hence abusing water bottles when he thinks no eyes are on him). He'll remember those 6 losses to Nadal at RG. That Nadal at his best on Clay is pretty much unbeatable, and he'll have his own nerves and fears going in to RG.

I don't think Novak is extra confident of winning RG. I just think he's not putting any pressure on himself, because he genuinely considers Nadal to be the heavy favorite. And considering the draw, Novak is far from a certainty to even make it to the final to meet Nadal (who I can't see not making the final, though anything is possible).
 
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Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
There is a difference between bad match up and simply being a better player. Djokovic is a bad match up for Nadal, because of the way their games match up, Nadal's strength goes into Djokovic's strength. The reason why Nadal wins at RG is because his movement is greatest on clay, his shots have more bite off the ground, that doesn't mean the bad match up issue isn't there.

When Federer beat Nadal at W 06, he won because he was simply the better player, but the match up still existed, Federer could just deal with it better.
I'd like to nuance this a different way. Nadal is a bad matchup for Djokovic on clay. Nadal was horrible in 2015 and 2016, and that's were Novak has 3 wins in a row against him, on clay. But rating Nadal then is like using the last half of 2016 and 2017 for Novak, on clay, and even into 2018, before he got his mojo back. In fact, both Djokovic and Fed have been terribly unlucky to be playing clay in Nadal's era. So for Novak the matchup is improved when he's zoned, and Nadal is not, but the match-up still favors Nadal. On faster surfaces it flips. Advantage Djkokovic. I still think Nadal is in Djokovic's head on clay, not the other way around.
 

Djokodal Fan

Hall of Fame
If there is one player in draw that Nadal would be concerned about, that would be Djokovic. Nadal knows deep inside how much damage the Serb can do. All things aside, Djokovic doesn't have the burden on his back to win RG title like in their previous meetings and trying to complete career slam. All this points to a complete 50/50 toss up if they meet in the final. As always match will be of djoker's raquet. Depends on which kind of Djokovic shows up for the final
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
That's delusional. Novak was violently throwing his water bottles at the wall when he was sitting down after Nadal beat him in Rome. He was visibly showing his anger at losing. Of course when he gets in front of a mike at a press conference or trophy presentation, he's polite and professional and keeps his emotions in check. He's been trained to be that way for years in those situations. But away from those situations, Novak often betrays his real emotions.

Anyone acting like Novak was playing possum or didn't mind losing to Nadal because he knows the 2nd set in Rome means he can take Nadal doesn't get it.

Nadal has demons against Novak. But Novak has demons against Nadal. Especially on Clay, especially at Roland Garros. Nadal handing him a bagel and breadstick just reinforced how monumental a task it will be for him to beat a confident Nadal at Roland Garros. He knows his thrashing of Nadal in Australia hasn't put enough mental doubts on Nadal to make him an easy prey for Novak on Clay.

So all Novak's demons will be back (hence abusing water bottles when he thinks no eyes are on him). He'll remember those 6 losses to Nadal at RG. That Nadal at his best on Clay is pretty much unbeatable, and he'll have his own nerves and fears going in to RG.

I don't think Novak is extra confident of winning RG. I just think he's not putting any pressure on himself, because he genuinely considers Nadal to be the heavy favorite. And considering the draw, Novak is far from a certainty to even make it to the final to meet Nadal (who I can't see not making the final, though anything is possible).
I totally agree with this analysis, but I'd like to add that Nadal also knows that if his level slips, no one has a better chance against him than a determined Djokovic. Also, "abusing plastic water bottles" is hardly an immoral thing to do!
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
If there is one player in draw that Nadal would be concerned about, that would be Djokovic. Nadal knows deep inside how much damage the Serb can do. All things aside, Djokovic doesn't have the burden on his back to win RG title like in their previous meetings and trying to complete career slam. All this points to a complete 50/50 toss up if they meet in the final. As always match will be of djoker's raquet. Depends on which kind of Djokovic shows up for the final
Ultronians :D

 

kevaninho

Hall of Fame
You're simply worried of the RG outcome. Has nothing to do with Nole's presser.
No, not really. But any Nadal fan who doesn't fear the threat of Djokovic is deluded.
I don't fear rafa facing any other opponent at RG, but that match in Rome told us that this matchup is almost 50/50 in Paris.
I wasn't worried till Djokovic won Madrid, and reached the Rome final, where he gave Nadal a match even though he was probably only 70% of himself.
Djokovic knows this himself, and he is relishing facing Nadal in Paris.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
No, not really. But any Nadal fan who doesn't fear the threat of Djokovic is deluded.
I don't fear rafa facing any other opponent at RG, but that match in Rome told us that this matchup is almost 50/50 in Paris.
I wasn't worried till Djokovic won Madrid, and reached the Rome final, where he gave Nadal a match even though he was probably only 70% of himself.
Djokovic knows this himself, and he is relishing facing Nadal in Paris.
Why would you fear Djokovic. Let's better player win.
 

Luka888

Hall of Fame
Djokovic's sweet spot is med to slow hard courts.

He's overrated on clay.

To wit, his best year on tour 2011, he was bested on clay by grandpa Fed

So a distant second fav to Rafa
No, no and no. Djokovic is very good on clay. You are being silly. I'm not sure what kinda tennis you are watching. Djokovic won RG.

He won Madrid this year and played the final of the Rome. What are you talking about? Are you stupid :mad:, lol. Be logical.
 

RF-18

G.O.A.T.
No, no and no. Djokovic is very good on clay. You are being silly. I'm not sure what kinda tennis you are watching. Djokovic won RG.

He won Madrid this year and played the final of the Rome. What are you talking about? Are you stupid :mad:, lol. Be logical.
He is a Djokovic hater so not surprising coming from him.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
No, not really. But any Nadal fan who doesn't fear the threat of Djokovic is deluded.
I don't fear rafa facing any other opponent at RG, but that match in Rome told us that this matchup is almost 50/50 in Paris.
I wasn't worried till Djokovic won Madrid, and reached the Rome final, where he gave Nadal a match even though he was probably only 70% of himself.
Djokovic knows this himself, and he is relishing facing Nadal in Paris.
I do agree with you, Nadal fans do fear the threat of Djokovic here.

But this is also the place where Nadal fans should feel the most confident. Nadal is still the man here in Paris, even if Djokovic owns the rest of the world. Nadal also has a better chance of getting to final and also with significantly less wear and tear on the body, which will help him.
 

Enceladus

Hall of Fame
He will have a good chance of lifting his second French Open title if Nadal loses before the final or if he meets and beats Thiem in the semi final.

OP, don't rule out Thiem either. He truly believes he is the second best clay court player today, especially at RG. When he plays well without making many errors, he's one of the hardest players to defeat on clay.
Their mutual match in Madrid showed that even at the age of 32 Djoker is better than Thiem on the clay.

Only a madman would feel confident going into Roland Garros against Rafa Nadal.... that said, Djoker is kinda crazy.

Rafa looked amazing in that first set at Rome. If he plays like that he’ll win. Anything less and it’s a toss up with Djokovic
Djoker just has to be confident! His insecurity will only help Nadal. Uncertainty, too much respect to Nadal makes it easier for Nadal matches at RG.
 

Enceladus

Hall of Fame
I agree with most of this, but technically Nadal leads 3-2 in their H2H over the last couple years. Its not been dominant at all from Djokovic.
It really should be 4-1 as Nadal threw away Wimbledon. The only dominance was AO this year, no doubts there.
Since 2014, Djoker leads 11-4 in their mutual matches. Nadal beat Djoker in this period only on the clay.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Since 2014, Djoker leads 11-4 in their mutual matches. Nadal beat Djoker in this period only on the clay.
They try to conceal it well but you just know it drives Nadal fans crazy that their guy hasn't managed to beat Djokovic on non clay surfaces since then lol.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
No, no and no. Djokovic is very good on clay. You are being silly. I'm not sure what kinda tennis you are watching. Djokovic won RG.

He won Madrid this year and played the final of the Rome. What are you talking about? Are you stupid :mad:, lol. Be logical.
If he thinks Djokovic is overrated on clay then I dread to think how he views Federer on the surface.
 
Man he looks very quietly confident. I think he has been holding back a little in the Masters events till now, and in his mind he knows he has that extra gear to win RG.

Anyone else get this feeling?

It worries me, as a Nadal fan, when Djokovic is in this mindset. I don't think he minds taking a loss against Nadal , whereas if the result goes the other way, I feel it affects Nadal a lot.
Basically Nadal needed that Rome win, whereas Djokovic looks like hes just brushed it off and in his mind he feels at RG he wont be fighting against fatigue or scheduling if he meets Nadal again.

Im very much looking forward to hopefully seeing them battle it out in the final this year.
I'M NOT!
 
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mwym

Rookie
I do agree with you, Nadal fans do fear the threat of Djokovic here.

But this is also the place where Nadal fans should feel the most confident. Nadal is still the man here in Paris, even if Djokovic owns the rest of the world. Nadal also has a better chance of getting to final and also with significantly less wear and tear on the body, which will help him.
At AO19 the way Djokovic won SF pretty much defined state of mind for both players when they started playing final - Djokovic was in his absolute killing mode, Nadal was truly worried/scared of what he saw in SF Djokovic played.

Therefore, the crucial moment before they meet in RG19 finals is the way Thiem vs Djokovic SF unfolds., obviously if both Djokovic and Thiem reach SF. A straight sets no tiebreaks win by Djokovic, and without a single 5 set match during 2 weeks (maybe 1 or 2 sets lost, without Djokovic struggling to win any of the matches before final) brings their chance to exact 50/50, but with slight mental advantage for Djokovic which is all he needs to win it in 4 or 5, and everyone knows that.

Surely, I am aware PC is Nadal's playground and that is reflected in 50/50 estimate. But OTOH, if Djokovic hardly wins against Thiem and/or gets worn out in another 5 setter (QF?) during tournament, Nadal will win RG19 comfortably. After Madrid and Rome, RG winner will be decided in a match of a mind against a mind. It always was, when both are playing close to their maximum at that moment.

If both play their best/optimal game during tournament, there is almost no chance of a straight sets win at RG19 finals for neither Nadal nor Djokovic. Whether it will be another match of them 2 to remember, we shall see.
 
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dr325i

Legend
Djokovic's sweet spot is med to slow hard courts.

He's overrated on clay.

To wit, his best year on tour 2011, he was bested on clay by grandpa Fed

So a distant second fav to Rafa
welcome to reality. That used to be his sweet spot.
Oh, and by the way, that "grandpa" from EIGHT years ago is still the top 4 player on the tour and still a threat to anyone, on any surface and making yearly off tournaments more than you will your whole career...
I agree, Rafa is the favorite and always will be at RG, however, "distant" - totally disagree. Was very obvious in Rome. A "distant" favorite Rafa would have wrapped that up in two sets...
 

Sport

Legend
No, no and no. Djokovic is very good on clay. You are being silly. I'm not sure what kinda tennis you are watching. Djokovic won RG.

He won Madrid this year and played the final of the Rome. What are you talking about? Are you stupid :mad:, lol. Be logical.
He never denied that Djokovic is an excellent clay courter. :) He said he is "overrated", which in this context I mean he refers to the fact that people sometimes forget that Djokovic is not the same on clay than hard.
 
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duaneeo

Hall of Fame
No, not really. But any Nadal fan who doesn't fear the threat of Djokovic is deluded.
I don't fear rafa facing any other opponent at RG, but that match in Rome told us that this matchup is almost 50/50 in Paris.
My point exactly. You're worried of the outcome. It has nothing to do with Djokovic's presser. You would be worried even if he had no presser.
 
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