Joe Pike
Banned
No.
Graf and Novotna were retired. Hingis on her way down.
And Venus was a smarter player. But not a faster one.
Justine vs Venus: who is greater?
- Thread starter Dutch-Guy
- Start date
No.
Graf and Novotna were retired. Hingis on her way down.
And Venus was a smarter player. But not a faster one.
N
NadalAgassi
Guest
I dont agree Hingis's level was on the way down in 2000. She won something like 9 tournaments and was year end #1 for the 3rd time, and she played a great match in nearly beating Venus at the U.S Open and won the WTA Championships. The continued improvement of players like Davenport, Venus, and Serena just ate away at her former dominance, while she herself did not improve enough, but she didnt start getting worse yet. She also would be denied at times by surprise inspired performances like Pierce at Rolland Garros.
2001 was the first year Hingis started getting noticeably worse, as she started to crack mentally with her major title drought. I think losing the Australian Open final to Capriati after beating both Williams was a shock to her system as well.
2001 was the first year Hingis started getting noticeably worse, as she started to crack mentally with her major title drought. I think losing the Australian Open final to Capriati after beating both Williams was a shock to her system as well.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Yea! That USO semi was a classic! Sheer power, athleticism and speed (Venus) vs amazing craft, consistency, and shot placement (Hingis)...
N
NadalAgassi
Guest
Yes those were the days for womens tennis. Great rivalries, matches, varying playing styles, very high standard, a somewhat defined pecking order. Almost sad to think about when comparing to the last couple years.
They are in denial. If the poll result was the opposite, they wouldn't say anything except support the people who voted Venus. I bet some people who voted Henin b/c she had a shorter career but still had Venus numbers.
You should give it a rest. Just b/c you have to have the last word doesn't mean you are a winner. I've read Towser83 posts and he has schooled you left and right. Towser83 doesn't need to repeat himself again and again, it's pretty clear he owns you.
jones101
Hall of Fame
Venus won Davis Cup??
Wow!
Yes, another distintion to her legacy, Henin famously retired in her 'Fed cup finals' deciding doubles match.
Also has 3 gold medals to Henin's 1.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. He's incapable of posting anything based on solid reasoning...and let's not even mention history, since another member had to to warn him against offering his opinion on subjects he knows nothing about to any degree.
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THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Indeed. All true.
C
celoft
Guest
Justine is as great as Venus.
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Serena Williams' large BMI is what makes her morbidly obese, not TMF.
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Mother Marjorie has already told you once, and shouldn't have to tell you again.
Do not EVER compare Venus Williams with the true greats of the sport. Venus Williams is a Tier III to IV great and should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Martina Navratilova, Steffi Graf or Monica Seles.
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Steffi Graf trained with the West German Olympic Track and Field team. Venus trained with Richard Williams.
There is no doubt who was the quickest.
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Did someone rattle your trailer door? (Go back, look at "Stupider" then think about rephrasing your statement.)
The consensus is that Justine is greater. Venus never dominated the sport as Justine was able to do. Venus was a classic underachiever. Justine overachieved given her physical limitations. That is what makes Justine greater than Venus.
Just because some people in this forum choose not to drink the Williams' Family Kool-Aid, doesn't make this an anti-Williams forum, as you alledge. It just proves that you can't brand "drama" and expect a good outcome, you betcha! Uh-huh!
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
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N
NadalAgassi
Guest
Seles, ROTFL. Get real. Seles has only 2 more slams than Venus, has 0 Wimbledons to Venus's 5, and has a patethetic 1-9 head to head with Venus. Venus most certainly can be mentioned in the same sentence as Seles.
Also if Venus is a tier IV great what is your beloved Sharapova. A tier 9 great?
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Believe it or not, there are some folks in this forum who attempt to compare Venus with Stefanie Graf, Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova.
Venus doesn't belong in that conversation. Not even close. Or her little-big sister.
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehosue
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Venus' last win was in Acapulco, February 2010 (a weak event at best). Let's just say that a retired Justine has a greater chance of winning another grand slam singles event than Venus does.
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
But a un-retired Justine didn't not win another grand slam. A person not playing in a grand slam does not have a better chance than a person playing a grand slam. That is the nature of sport; no one can win from the sidelines.
jones101
Hall of Fame
Your lack of respect shown to them is appaling. Im still sticking to my opinion regardless. Its open to debate but you are very classless dismissing their training. Its more impressive how good they are, despite the lack of elite facilities Ms Graf had the luxury of using.
Its also ironic that you hold Ms Graf in such high regard OF ALL PEOPLE, as you have no class yourself.
Even Ms Graf could acknowlege their speed and athleticism.
Steffi on the Williams sisters: -
STEFFI GRAF: Absolutely. Their athleticism is incredible. They move extremely well out there. They're taking risks. They go for their shots. They don't really have a certain weakness. They're trying things, they're trying to come in. They're very tall and big. That's definitely a plus. All those things are definitely working for them.
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jones101
Hall of Fame
Aww come on your being a bit harsh on Masha.
She is definitely at least a tier 7 great:wink:
Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
:lol:
Serena is nowhere close to obesity even if you go by the one dimensional BMI statistic, which does not account for muscle mass and body frame. At most, Serena will be defined as overweight by the BMI stat. She really has nothing to worry about. Here is "overweight" Andy Roddick at 6 ft 2 and 195 lbs.
Tsonga is also "overweight" .:lol:
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
BlewByU
Semi-Pro
!
We gotta enforce better use of forum space around here.
wasted forum space
= bigger server hard disk
= higher maintenance cost for TW
= higher TW merchandise price
= we pay eventually !
From where I stand and I bet many people would agree with me that Monica > Venus and of course Graf >>> Venus. It's ashame that some posters had to be dishonest just b/c they love the WS.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
This is Tennis not Figure Skating. A scoreboard is used in tennis and that is how greatness is measure by wins and loses.
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Mother Marjorie just finished picking ripe, organic tomatoes from her luscious garden, oh, yes she did. What that means is tomorrow's lunch will be a whole grain sandwich with soy bacon, tomato, lettuce and fat-free mayo, uh-huh, yes indeed.
Tennis history certainly turns a blind eye to crazed fans. Its a condition of which only the numbers and records speak for themselves, without the sound of McDonalds wrappers polluting the air.
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
MotherMarjorie
Banned
How dramatic. It is interesting how some fans emulate their favorite sports figures behavioral patterns, uh-huh.
No. You phrased that incorrectly. Dismissing someone's training doesn't make them classless. Threatening a poor Asian line judge in front of millions of people definitely qualifies, yep, uh-huh. Here's a proper example of classless behavior, just in case you forgot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO_jlXjgxN8&feature=related
Given the fact all three women are millionaires, your point is moot and almost downright irrevelant.
You don't seem to be able to have civil discussion without ad hominem attacks, which is a mirror to your true character. But given your allegience, Mother Marjorie isn't the least bit surprised by that behavior, oh, no she is not!
When did Stefanie ever say that Venus or Serena was faster than she?
You lost this argument when you attempted to compare either of the Williams sister to Stefanie Graf on any level. Historically, you are very ignorant. Every single thing Stefanie Graf accomplished in the sport of tennis Stefanie Graf did greater than both Venus and Serena. So, stop making the Tier II and Tier IV GOAT careers of the Williams Sisters seem much bigger than it really is. What you have attempted to do is very intellectually dishonest.
You attempted to compare a Mercedes with two Ford Focus'. Stefanie Graf is the last great athlete women's tennis has seen. The rest are just fake poseurs.
You too attracted Mother Marjorie's diamond-clad fickle finger of fervor because of your failed attempt at changing tennis history. In Mother Marjorie's sweetest voice, she just told you to *F* off (and smiled as well). Now that's real class.
Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
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BlewByU
Semi-Pro
Got this from a very available source called Wikipedia :
John McEnroe (probably the most talented tennis 'hand' ever) said,
"Henin is the player I most like to watch".
Martina Navratilova (grand daddy of tennis of our time) said,
"We've got the female Federer, or maybe the guys have the male Justine Henin".
"She is head and shoulders above everyone else".
Billie Jean King (grand aunt of tennis of our time) said,
"Pound for pound, Henin is the best tennis player of her generation".
"Justine is the best women's athlete I've ever seen".
Wow, these are honest-to-goodness true real-life distinctions that one can't just garner by collecting a few GS titles here & there
(especially by merely hanging around long enough before and after,,)
I would rather earn these remarks than any number of GS titles.
Thank you Henin.
Tennis with you was the most thrilling & outright greatest ride ever
(although very short like a sweet dream)
Long live Henin's legacy !!!
. . . . .
John McEnroe (probably the most talented tennis 'hand' ever) said,
"Henin is the player I most like to watch".
Martina Navratilova (grand daddy of tennis of our time) said,
"We've got the female Federer, or maybe the guys have the male Justine Henin".
"She is head and shoulders above everyone else".
Billie Jean King (grand aunt of tennis of our time) said,
"Pound for pound, Henin is the best tennis player of her generation".
"Justine is the best women's athlete I've ever seen".
Wow, these are honest-to-goodness true real-life distinctions that one can't just garner by collecting a few GS titles here & there
(especially by merely hanging around long enough before and after,,)
I would rather earn these remarks than any number of GS titles.
Thank you Henin.
Tennis with you was the most thrilling & outright greatest ride ever
(although very short like a sweet dream)
Long live Henin's legacy !!!
. . . . .
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BlewByU
Semi-Pro
Speaking of scoreboard, looks like Henin clashed with V. and S. :
Henin
AO: 2004
FO: 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007
USO: 2003, 2007
Venus
Wim: 2000, 2001, 2005, 2007, 2008
USO: 2000, 2001
Serena
AO: 2003,2005,2007,2009,2010
FO: 2002
Wim: 2002, 2003, 2009, 2010
USO: 1999, 2002, 2008
Do you see the disturbing pattern here ???
This is what i meant when i said
"collecting a few GS titles here & there by merely hanging around long enough before and after,,"
. . . . .
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heftylefty
Hall of Fame
What I learned from this Thread:
7 slams >13 slams
6 wins Head to Head > 8 Head to Head
Flaming Out > Hanging In
Thanks for the lesson.
7 slams >13 slams
6 wins Head to Head > 8 Head to Head
Flaming Out > Hanging In
Thanks for the lesson.
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BlewByU
Semi-Pro
QUALITY matters
Speaking of quality, i would like to present what i consider the essence of "Williams sisters experience".
This has gone on for nearly a decade and i feel very cheated about the whole thing.
You see, their whole tennis world and their whole life for that matter is founded upon a sand castle named "low skill levels".
Their muscle trick worked for a while at beginning due to a weak field.
But, alas, one day, a truly skilled one appeared! Finally.
WS realized that their days are numbered.
They decided to make last ditch efforts :
From now on, Serena is the tragic queen of drama who would have easily dominated if not for those unfortunate distractions.
From now on, Venus is the aloof queen who was not really interested in tennis to begin with.
.......... my, my .......... talk about deceptions & posing ..........
Currently, they are on last leg of their gig, which is to merely hang around long enough to collect one more GS titles to claim their ( ). Whatever. You fill in the blank!
They are basically nibbling at GS events only to achieve this goal.
In summation, the whole thing is the most hollowing and harrowing and fake of a spectacle that i ever witnessed in tennis.
I feel greatly cheated and angered...
. . . . .
Speaking of quality, i would like to present what i consider the essence of "Williams sisters experience".
This has gone on for nearly a decade and i feel very cheated about the whole thing.
You see, their whole tennis world and their whole life for that matter is founded upon a sand castle named "low skill levels".
Their muscle trick worked for a while at beginning due to a weak field.
But, alas, one day, a truly skilled one appeared! Finally.
WS realized that their days are numbered.
They decided to make last ditch efforts :
From now on, Serena is the tragic queen of drama who would have easily dominated if not for those unfortunate distractions.
From now on, Venus is the aloof queen who was not really interested in tennis to begin with.
.......... my, my .......... talk about deceptions & posing ..........
Currently, they are on last leg of their gig, which is to merely hang around long enough to collect one more GS titles to claim their ( ). Whatever. You fill in the blank!
They are basically nibbling at GS events only to achieve this goal.
In summation, the whole thing is the most hollowing and harrowing and fake of a spectacle that i ever witnessed in tennis.
I feel greatly cheated and angered...
. . . . .
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
How subjective of you. Thank the Tennis Gods that results are Objective and not really open to interpretation.
Also, I am sure, as a sports fan, you understand the concept of peaking for big events. So the concept of the William Sister only showing up for Slams, basically showing up 4 time year is unrealistic.
When she said that at the US Open, I remember thinking, "Wow, that was quite a dig at Serena."
When did BJK start measuring greatness per pound? As in the more you weigh, the less great you are per pound.
One can only imagine what else is lurking in the back of BJK's mind. LOL.
Let me add to the depreciation of that experience.
I have seen them play in person more than I care to remember.
They both play a brutish, ugly kind of tennis, punctuated by grunting, moping, wincing, scowling and angry fist pumps.
If you are fan of theirs and want them to win, perhaps that has been enough, but if you are fan of the game and want to see some creative shotmaking you are probably ready for these two to move on. (I know I am.)
Bilbo
Semi-Pro
hey woulda look at that...you were 100% correct. To me that anti-williams bias is much more annoying because of the hatred riddling the posts. Nonetheless, you basically hit the nail on the head. IMO, after 2 pages of post, every Williams sister thread should be closed. Too many h8rs. And to counter act the hate, her supporters have to show proportionate love to the exceedingly high amount of hate....or is it the other way around....who cares. I love the Williams' sisters, but posting in these topics can be annoying when no one ever changes there opinion.....at all.
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
You mean the way Serena won nothing in 2004, one major in 2005 (which I believe Henin did not play) nothing in 2006, one in 2007 (which henin did not play - Henin beat Serena in the other 3 majors) - so that's basically 2 majors in 4 years (and no majors that Henin played in) yet Henin retires in 2008 and Suddenly Serena wins the US Open that year and AO/Wimbledon for the next 2 years?
I'm not saying Serena wasn't as good, but I think she couldn't handle having a rival that wasn't her sister. It sapped her motivation rather than fuelled it. Not like Federer and nadal at all.
As a note on the H2H, between 2003 and the year Henin quit the game, they only played in 2007 (one meeting the year henin quit in 2008 which Serena won ) Henin won 3 matches in majors and Serena won the final of Miami, coming back from losing a love set and match point down to win in 3. We can't say who would have won in 2004, 2005 and 2006, but it seems Serena wasn't motivated to make these big matches happen (yes she skipped some because of injury) and it was Henin who won more majors during this time. She quits the game and Serena gets motivated again and starts racking up more majors and gets back to number one for the first time in years (about 5 years I think)
And yes I know she was injured for some of those majors, but still, she seemed to come roaring back the minute Henin retired.
Bilbo
Semi-Pro
Frankly, i don't think Serena cared too much about playing Henin....at all.
But, if you'd like to interpret the "statistics" you've posted above as Serena running away from Henin, and getting lucky 6 times for major wins without Henin being there, have at it. Cool...i guess. And if you'd like to use this to explain why, in your twisted world, Henin was a better player than Serena, I guess that's alright too. Never mind that this all reads like a bunch of BS to me, a man's opinion is 100% correct...i guess :neutral:
Seles > Venus and there shouldn't even be a debate. Venus vs. Justine is a good debate b/c they have similar achievements, but based on the fans, most say Justine is better.
N
NadalAgassi
Guest
Yes because planet TW which is comprised of idiots who most of the human population are ashamed of like TMF is an accurate reflection on the majority of the tennis watcing population, LOL! Look at the bigger polls on ESPN or BBC, they tell the real story.
Considering how many different usernames you've had and have, you may just be referring to yourself. LOL.
For those who don't know, here is the list of usernames associated with NadalAgassi:
1. davey25 (previously inactive, now very active, 3343 posts)
2. federerfanatic (banned, 3046 posts)
3. capriatifanatic (banned, 646 posts)
4. gugafanatic (inactive following retirement of Guga Kuerten, 2006 posts)
5. cuddles26 (banned, 937 posts)
6. nadalgirl26 (banned, 182 posts)
7. grafrules (banned, 2181 posts)
8. grafselesfan (banned, 3599)
9. federerhoogenbandfan (currently inactive, 2542 posts)
10. justineheninhoogenbandfan (currently inactive, 898 posts)
11. navratilovafan (831 posts)
12. thalivest (active, often in the same thread as davey25 and anointedone, 3406 posts)
13. anointedone (active, often in the same thread as davey25 and thalivest, 4588 posts)
14. GrafisGOAT (45 posts)
15. lambielspins (banned, 2718 posts)
16. julesb (banned, 489 posts)
17. hewittboy
18. flying24
19. NadalandFedererfan
20. selesvido
21. Trillus
Polaris compiled the list with the first 16 usernames for this thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=120148. Gizo added the last 5 names in this post, http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5777612&postcount=78
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Tanya, that's to be expected for someone who is so filled with hate toward that family that he creates arguments only existing in the hooded corridors of his "mind."
jones101
Hall of Fame
You have a nice, quirky writing style but you have also misinterpreted a lot of what I said, and responded as such.
I cant be bothered explaining, Its not worth it really. I think we will just agree to disagree on this one.
Also, no need to get defensive re: Steffi. I cant think of a single negative to say about her (nor would I, ), she is the most professional, successul female athlete ever.
