Justine vs Venus: who is greater?

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Your lack of respect shown to them is appaling. Im still sticking to my opinion regardless. Its open to debate but you are very classless dismissing their training. Its more impressive how good they are, despite the lack of elite facilities Ms Graf had the luxury of using.

Its also ironic that you hold Ms Graf in such high regard OF ALL PEOPLE, as you have no class yourself.

Keep in mind that the man named Marjorie used to be all up Henin's butt (incessantly calling her "Queen Justine") before it was apparent Henin's career and ability took a dive, leading to her retirement (and Marjorie ditching Henin as his avatar). Of late, he's pretending to be all about Graf, only because supporting Henin in his past manner was not going to endure the deserved criticism.

Even Ms Graf could acknowlege their speed and athleticism.

Steffi on the Williams sisters: -

STEFFI GRAF: Absolutely. Their athleticism is incredible. They move extremely well out there. They're taking risks. They go for their shots. They don't really have a certain weakness. They're trying things, they're trying to come in. They're very tall and big. That's definitely a plus. All those things are definitely working for them.

Graf--of course--was correct, as the sisters proved long ago that they--by far--are the greatest WTA players since the Graf/Seles years.

 

[Towser83]

Frankly, i don't think Serena cared too much about playing Henin....at all.

But, if you'd like to interpret the "statistics" you've posted above as Serena running away from Henin, and getting lucky 6 times for major wins without Henin being there, have at it. Cool...i guess. And if you'd like to use this to explain why, in your twisted world, Henin was a better player than Serena, I guess that's alright too. Never mind that this all reads like a bunch of BS to me, a man's opinion is 100% correct...i guess :neutral:

I'm not saying anything of the kind. I'm saying unlike Federer and Nadal who are always up for playing each other, Serena didn't like having someone challenging her - even if she could have won a lot of her matches anyway, she sort of lost interest, which really bit her on the backside in 2007 when she lost 3 major matches to Henin.

Serena probably could have taken a slam or 2 off Henin in that period (2004-2007) as well as winning other too, but in my opinion didn't want to battle for it. As soon as Henin retired and she realised there was no-one who could even trouble her, she came back to number 1 and winning slams, because everyone else she could beat while not even giving it 100%

 

[Federerx16]

I'm not saying anything of the kind. I'm saying unlike Federer and Nadal who are always up for playing each other, Serena didn't like having someone challenging her - even if she could have won a lot of her matches anyway, she sort of lost interest, which really bit her on the backside in 2007 when she lost 3 major matches to Henin.

Serena probably could have taken a slam or 2 off Henin in that period (2004-2007) as well as winning other too, but in my opinion didn't want to battle for it. As soon as Henin retired and she realised there was no-one who could even trouble her, she came back to number 1 and winning slams, because everyone else she could beat while not even giving it 100%

I don't know about that. I feel like 04-07 was a transitional period for Serena after her big knee surgery, the death of her sister, fitness issues and she finally found the balance in 08, which I don't think had anything to do with Justine.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Perhaps the reverse is true. Serena starts to find her game again and Justine sees it so quits rather than be overhauled as #1. It is all a guess really.

Not that I believe that as I have a totally different theory to why Justine's play declined visibly in early 2008, why her sudden and shocking retirement with a huge lead in ranking points still and just before her favorite slam which she was still the heavy favorite to win, and why when she returned she mysteriously lacked her previous power and strength which belied her size and height. Especialy in this day in age in sports. I will leave that part to others imagination though.

 

[Joe Pike]

And based on TV ratings NASCAR is better that tennis...Thank the Tennis Gods we're not all sheep.

That's nonsense.
Tennis is shown far more than NASCAR.
NASCAR is sometimes on Sport1 during the night, nothing more.

 

[Towser83]

Perhaps the reverse is true. Serena starts to find her game again and Justine sees it so quits rather than be overhauled as #1. It is all a guess really.

Not that I believe that as I have a totally different theory to why Justine's play declined visibly in early 2008, why her sudden and shocking retirement with a huge lead in ranking points still and just before her favorite slam which she was still the heavy favorite to win, and why when she returned she mysteriously lacked her previous power and strength which belied her size and height. Especialy in this day in age in sports. I will leave that part to others imagination though.

Yes, nice theory from a poster with the name of Mr Overnight Wonderserve in their title.

Henin was playing bad in 2008 against everyone. When she came back she got to the AO final and took a set off Serena, so not doing that badly. If someone was only winning because of the reasons you suggest, no way they'd think they could come back and win without it.

But I appreciate the fact that Serena had other things on her mind.

 

[heftylefty]

That's nonsense.
Tennis is shown far more than NASCAR.
NASCAR is sometimes on Sport1 during the night, nothing more.

NASCAR on TNT, cable, draws an average of 5.1 million total veiws.
Roland Garros Men's Final this year no network tv, while up 63% from late year final, draw 2.6 million viewers.

What is nonsense about that? But if you like "who is greater than who" based on a popularity poll; who am I to judge.

 

[Bilbo]

Keep in mind that the man named Marjorie used to be all up Henin's butt (incessantly calling her "Queen Justine") before it was apparent Henin's career and ability took a dive, leading to her retirement (and Marjorie ditching Henin as his avatar). Of late, he's pretending to be all about Graf, only because supporting Henin in his past manner was not going to endure the deserved criticism.



Graf--of course--was correct, as the sisters proved long ago that they--by far--are the greatest WTA players since the Graf/Seles years.

are you telling me that mother marjorie is a guy? i think i asked this question before but no one answered me.

That's just weird

 

[Tanya]

Can't we all just get along.

 

[TMF]

What I learned from this Thread:

7 slams >13 slams
6 wins Head to Head > 8 Head to Head
Flaming Out > Hanging In

Thanks for the lesson.

Just refer to this stats whenever you need to compare players. It's very handy.

IN THE OPEN ERA


Most GS titles

player total

1 Steffi Graf 22

2 Martina Navratilova 18

2 Chris Evert 18

4 Serena Williams 13

5 Margaret Court 11

6 Monica Seles 9

7 Billie Jean King 8

8 Justine Henin 7

8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7

8 Venus Williams 7



Most GS finals

Rank Name Total

1 Chris Evert 34 (18 )

2 Martina Navrátilová 32 (18 )

3 Steffi Graf 31 (22)

4 Evonne Goolagong 18 (7)

5 Serena Williams 16 (13)

6 Venus Williams 14 (7)

7 Monica Seles 13 (9)

8 Margaret Court 12 (11)

8 Martina Hingis 12 (5)

8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12 (8 )



Most single titles

Rank Player Singles

1 Martina Navratilova 167

2 Chris Evert 157

3 Steffi Graf 107

4 Margaret Court 92

5 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68

6 Billie Jean King 67

7 Lindsay Davenport 55

8 Virginia Wade 55

9 Monica Seles 53

10 Hingis 45



Most weeks at #1

Rank Player weeks

1 Steffi Graf 377

2 Martina Navratilova 332

3 Chris Evert 260

4 Martina Hingis 209

5 Monica Seles 178

6 Justine Henin * 117

7 Lindsay Davenport 98

8 Serena Williams * 111

9 Amélie Mauresmo 39

10 Dinara Safina * 26



Consecutive weeks at #1

1 Steffi Graf (1) 186

2 Martina Navratilova (1) 156

3 Chris Evert (1) 113

4 Steffi Graf (2) 94

5 Monica Seles (1) 91

6 Martina Navratilova (2) 90

7 Steffi Graf (3) 87

8 Martina Hingis (1) 80

9 Chris Evert (2) 76

10 Martina Hingis (2) 73



Year end No. 1 players

player year

Steffi Graf 8

Martina Navratilova 7

Chris Evert 5

Lindsay Davenport 4

Justine Henin 3

Martina Hingis

Monica Seles

Serena Williams 2

Jelena Jankovic 1

Caroline Wozniacki 1



All surface single winning percentage

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %

1 Margaret Court 593 56 91.37

2 Chris Evert 1309 146 89.97

3 Steffi Graf 902 115 88.69

4 Martina Navratilova 1442 219 86.82

5 Monica Seles 595 122 82.98

6 Serena Williams*[1] 462 98 82.5

7 Justine Henin* 503 109 82.18

8 Billie Jean King 695 155 81.76

9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704 165 81.01



Clay court singles career winning percentage

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %

1 Chris Evert 316 20 94.05

2 Steffi Graf 273 30 90.1

3 Justine Henin* 122 19 86.52

4 Monica Seles 142 25 85.03

5 Martina Hingis 109 25 81.34

6 Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.12

7 Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80

8 Venus Williams* 127 35 78.4

9 Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.42

10 Conchita Martinez 294 88 76.96



Hard court singles career winning percentage

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %

1 Steffi Graf 335 36 90.3

2 Chris Evert 304 37 89.15

3 Martina Navratilova 340 48 87.63

4 Monica Seles 311 59 84.05

5 Serena Williams* 294 57 83.76

6 Justine Henin* 243 53 82.09

7 Kim Clijsters* 256 56 82.05

8 Maria Sharapova* 197 45 81.01

9 Venus Williams* 320 76 80.81

10 Lindsay Davenport 472 115 80.41



Grass court singles career winning percentage

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %

1 Martina Navratilova 305 39 88.66

2 Chris Evert 184 25 88.04

3 Venus Williams* 68 10 87.18

4 Serena Williams* 52 8 86.67

5 Steffi Graf 85 15 85

6 Maria Sharapova* 52 10 83.87

7 Justine Henin* 45 10 81.82

8 Jana Novotna 79 21 79

9 Kim Clijsters* 40 11 78.43

10 Tracy Austin 43 12 78.18



Carpet court singles career winning percentage

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %

1 Martina Navratilova 516 58 89.9

2 Steffi Graf 189 23 89.2

3 Chris Evert 209 39 84.3

4 Serena Williams* 34 7 82.93

5 Martina Hingis 97 23 80.83

6 Kim Clijsters* 50 13 79.37

= Monica Seles 98 26 79.03

8 Lindsay Davenport 93 27 77.5

9 Tracy Austin 85 25 77.27

10 Venus Williams* 50 17 74.63



Most singles matches won

Player Wins

1 Martina Navratilova 1442

2 Chris Evert 1309

3 Steffi Graf 902

4 Virginia Wade 839

5 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759

6 Lindsay Davenport 753

7 Conchita Martínez 739

8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley[5] 704

9 Billie Jean King 695

10 Gabriela Sabatini 632



Most match winning streak(all surfaces)

Rank Player Matches

1 Martina Navratilova 74

2 Steffi Graf 66

3 Martina Navratilova 58

4 Margaret Court 57

5 Chris Evert 55

6 Martina Navratilova 54

7 Steffi Graf 46

8 Steffi Graf 45

9 Steffi Graf 44

10 Martina Navratilova 41



Most consecutive singles titles

1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)

2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)

3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)

4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)

5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)

5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)

7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )

7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)



Best annual singles winning percentage

1 Martina Navratilova 98.9

2 Steffi Graf 97.7

3 Martina Navratilova 97.5

4 Steffi Graf 97.4

5 Martina Navratilova 96.8

6 Martina Navratilova 96.7

7 Steffi Graf 96

8 Margaret Court 95.3

9 Chris Evert 94.9

10 Margaret Court 94.8





Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title

1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)

2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )

3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)

4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)

4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )

6. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)

6. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)

6. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)

6. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)

6. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)



Most singles titles won in a year

1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)

2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)

3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)

4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)

4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)

6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)

8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )

8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)

8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)

11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)

12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)

12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)

12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)

15. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)

15. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)

15. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )

15. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)

 

[TMF]

Yes because planet TW which is comprised of idiots who most of the human population are ashamed of like TMF is an accurate reflection on the majority of the tennis watcing population, LOL! Look at the bigger polls on ESPN or BBC, they tell the real story.

People who voted Venus are not being fair. They use strawman argument like H2H record, or irrelevant like double to elevate Venus. People who voted Justine are more fair and provide accurate assessment b/c they focus on comparing single achievements. It's the performance and the result against the entire playing field, not one player or two players.. And when you add up the scores, Justine is more impressive and more dominant.

You are WRONG about ESPN. It's a site that covered mainly American sports. EVerytime you visit ESPN main page, it's either related to NFL, MLB, MBA and talks about American athltetes. It's a site that vast majority visit by US fans, and when the WS names pop up, of course they are going to be biased toward them rather than European players. If ESPN's poll is involve only with US players, that's not a problem, but when it compare their players to European players, the credibility goes out the window(much like SI magazine).

 

[TMF]

Mother Marjorie just finished picking ripe, organic tomatoes from her luscious garden, oh, yes she did. What that means is tomorrow's lunch will be a whole grain sandwich with soy bacon, tomato, lettuce and fat-free mayo, uh-huh, yes indeed.

Tennis history certainly turns a blind eye to crazed fans. Its a condition of which only the numbers and records speak for themselves, without the sound of McDonalds wrappers polluting the air.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

If Serena had ever take nutrition courses a long time ago, she would have much less health problems thus even a better career. But it's too late now. Maybe McDonalds is to blame too.

 

[jones101]

Can't we all just get along.

In an ideal world yes.

Im all for debate and this thread was interesting at first, people dont want a rational debate when one if the WS are involed.

When you have barrell-scrapers regurgatating illogical points and GS statistics (and references to weight) its hard not to respond.

 

[jones101]

Keep in mind that the man named Marjorie used to be all up Henin's butt (incessantly calling her "Queen Justine") before it was apparent Henin's career and ability took a dive, leading to her retirement (and Marjorie ditching Henin as his avatar). Of late, he's pretending to be all about Graf, only because supporting Henin in his past manner was not going to endure the deserved criticism.



Graf--of course--was correct, as the sisters proved long ago that they--by far--are the greatest WTA players since the Graf/Seles years.

Lol, forgot about that, spot on observation!!!

Re: Justine, even Ms Henin herself said she was scared of Venus. It even cost her a Final place at Wimbledon allegdly:

Only out of the bubble has she really stopped “to analyse why I never won it”. Her conclusions are honest: “Because I didn’t have enough confidence in myself as a grass-court player. Because I am always scared of playing the Williams sisters on grass, especially Venus.”

Henin’s fear of Venus hit its peak in 2007. “Part of the reason I lost to [Marion] Bartoli in the semi-final was because I was scared to face Venus in the final,” she says.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article6949302.ece

 

[heftylefty]

People who voted Venus are not being fair. They use strawman argument like H2H record, or irrelevant like double to elevate Venus. People who voted Justine are more fair and provide accurate assessment b/c they focus on comparing single achievements. It's the performance and the result against the entire playing field, not one player or two players.. And when you add up the scores, Justine is more impressive and more dominant....

I don't think you know how the used the word "dominant".

dom·i·nant   /ˈdɒmənənt/ Show Spelled
[dom-uh-nuhnt]

–adjective
1. ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence: dominant in the chain of command.
2. occupying or being in a commanding or elevated position.
3. predominant; main; major; chief: Corn is the dominant crop of Iowa.

Justine winning percentage was 78.1% in singles over the course of her career.

Venus winning percentage to date is 75.5% in single. Since Williams is still playing this percentage could decrease, but still a more than respectable average.

Now while 78.1% is greater than 75.5%, it's by whopping 2.6%. This fall well short of being in a commanding or elevated position; which is anything but being "more fair".

Regarding doubles, there is nothing irrelevant about it. That is why it's still played. But since Venus has 21 dubs titles, I guess it's convenient to say it's irrelevant. Someone should tell Martina, Billie Jean, and every other champion that excelled in both singles and doubles how irrelevant their titles are.

Now, if you wanna talk dominant in regards to the bottom line ($), since Justine and Williams are from the same era....I'll let you do the math.

TMF, feel free to get your hate on, just be honest about it.

 

[Gizo]

Lol very funny that this guy was stupid enough to simultaneously use the usernames 'federerhoogenbandfan' and 'justineheninhoogenbandfan' at the same time. As if that wasn't a give away lol. Also it's amazing that is has taken this guy 22 accounts to finally stop making the accessment/assessment typo.

 

[LDVTennis]

To be fair, the fellow seems to be sticking to one account (NadalAgassi) for the past few months. I hope this continues to be the case.

It is the case because he is now playing his games over at tennisforum. He's justineheninfan and rimon on that site.

Both accounts are active now and the idiots over there have no clue they are the same person.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Lol, forgot about that, spot on observation!!!

Thanks. That guy needs a dose of the truth on a regular schedule.

Re: Justine, even Ms Henin herself said she was scared of Venus. It even cost her a Final place at Wimbledon allegdly:

Only out of the bubble has she really stopped “to analyse why I never won it”. Her conclusions are honest: “Because I didn’t have enough confidence in myself as a grass-court player. Because I am always scared of playing the Williams sisters on grass, especially Venus.”

Henin’s fear of Venus hit its peak in 2007. “Part of the reason I lost to [Marion] Bartoli in the semi-final was because I was scared to face Venus in the final,” she says.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article6949302.ece

Post of the thread.

Venus was and remains superior to Henin at the greatest major (and the US Open), and Henin's own mouth provided an unforgettable reason her fans all conveniently dodge: she was no match for Venus.

 

[jones101]

Thanks. That guy needs a dose of the truth on a regular schedule.



Post of the thread.

Venus was and remains superior to Henin at the greatest major (and the US Open), and Henin's own mouth provided an unforgettable reason her fans all conveniently dodge: she was no match for Venus.

Exactly!

How can she be greater than Venus if she tanked a Grand Slam SF to AVIOD playing her???

 

[MichaelNadal]

Lol, forgot about that, spot on observation!!!

Re: Justine, even Ms Henin herself said she was scared of Venus. It even cost her a Final place at Wimbledon allegdly:

Only out of the bubble has she really stopped “to analyse why I never won it”. Her conclusions are honest: “Because I didn’t have enough confidence in myself as a grass-court player. Because I am always scared of playing the Williams sisters on grass, especially Venus.”

Henin’s fear of Venus hit its peak in 2007. “Part of the reason I lost to [Marion] Bartoli in the semi-final was because I was scared to face Venus in the final,” she says.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article6949302.ece

Interesting, I love her honesty.

 

[TMF]

I don't think you know how the used the word "dominant".

dom·i·nant   /ˈdɒmənənt/ Show Spelled
[dom-uh-nuhnt]

–adjective
1. ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence: dominant in the chain of command.
2. occupying or being in a commanding or elevated position.
3. predominant; main; major; chief: Corn is the dominant crop of Iowa.

Justine winning percentage was 78.1% in singles over the course of her career.

Venus winning percentage to date is 75.5% in single. Since Williams is still playing this percentage could decrease, but still a more than respectable average.

Now while 78.1% is greater than 75.5%, it's by whopping 2.6%. This fall well short of being in a commanding or elevated position; which is anything but being "more fair".

Regarding doubles, there is nothing irrelevant about it. That is why it's still played. But since Venus has 21 dubs titles, I guess it's convenient to say it's irrelevant. Someone should tell Martina, Billie Jean, and every other champion that excelled in both singles and doubles how irrelevant their titles are.

Now, if you wanna talk dominant in regards to the bottom line ($), since Justine and Williams are from the same era....I'll let you do the math.

TMF, feel free to get your hate on, just be honest about it.

If you just use winning % then 2.6% isn't much of a factor. But look at other stats. Henin 2007 was so dominant which she was wayyyyy ahead of everyone in race point at the end of the year. The fact is Venus wasn't dominating since she can't even end the year #1 in her entire career while Henin has 3. I'm not saying level of domination is a be-all and end-all, but it's still a big factor, and might be the reason a lot fans voted for Henin. Just saying.

 

[jones101]

If you just use winning % then 2.6% isn't much of a factor. But look at other stats. Henin 2007 was so dominant which she was wayyyyy ahead of everyone in race point at the end of the year. The fact is Venus wasn't dominating since she can't even end the year #1 in her entire career while Henin has 3. I'm not saying level of domination is a be-all and end-all, but it's still a big factor, and might be the reason a lot fans voted for Henin. Just saying.

Yes she was dominant in 2007 but at the peak of her powers she still tanked a SF to avoid Venus.

And you and me both know why Henin got more votes, and its not tennis.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Yes she was dominant in 2007 but at the peak of her powers she still tanked a SF to avoid Venus.

On point. None of the Henin whiners can produce an excuse for Henin admitting fear of the Williams sisters. Her cowardly mindset simply told her the truth of her chances. That--or she was destroyed by Bartoli. Either way, Henin comes off as a major loser at the most grand major. While on the subject of her fear, we must extend her cowardly nature to the AO final vs. Mauresmo, where she faked a medical problem because she was being owned by Mauresmo.

The more one studies Henin with honesty, it is easy to see why she's not in the conversation of the second best player of her generation.

And you and me both know why Henin got more votes, and its not tennis.

The very form of historically destructive, antisocial behavior this board is most infamous for--and as you say, it is not tennis.

 

[TERRASTAR18]

venus, the doubles titles and 2 gold medals seal it for me.

 

[BlewByU]

You mean the way Serena won nothing in 2004, one major in 2005 (which Henin did not play), nothing in 2006, one in 2007 (which henin did not play - Henin beat Serena in the other 3 majors) - so that's basically 2 majors in 4 years (and no majors that Henin played in) ...

yet Henin retires in 2008 and Suddenly Serena wins the US Open that year and AO/Wimbledon for the next 2 years? ...

I think she couldn't handle having a rival that wasn't her sister ...
It sapped her motivation rather than fuelled it. Not like Federer and nadal at all ...

Henin quits the game and Serena gets motivated again and starts racking up more majors and gets back to number one for the first time in years (about 5 years I think) ...

And yes Serena seemed to come roaring back the minute Henin retired ...

Thank you for articulating those important facts !

They once again affirm the essence of Williams sisters experience, which can be summed up as :

#1.. having low skill levels in their profession
#2.. being lucky to have early start during weak inbetween era (post-Graf, pre-Henin)
#3.. extremely poor showing during Henin era
#4.. cowering in face of true challenge (drama queen + aloof queen)
#5.. being lucky again (early retirement of Henin)


Now, please tell me sirs/madams, what aspect of above WS experience is meritorious and worthy of admiration ???
- having low skill in your job?
- just getting lucky?
- inventing schemes to deceive mass public?
- and then just getting lucky again?

How can any fair & objectively minded person not walk away feeling duped and angry (upon close inspection of their career) ???


Williams sisters have lived fully knowing and it will forever be known that they were the players who did it "before Henin" and "after Henin".

No amount of dramas or gs titles will change that...

(and i'm not gonna desecrate Henin's name by voting in a poll that supposedly compares Henin with the likes of Williams sisters :evil::evil::evil


. . . . .

 

[Tanya]

Thank you for articulating those important facts !

They once again affirm the essence of Williams sisters experience, which can be summed up as :

#1.. having low skill levels in their profession
#2.. being lucky to have early start during weak inbetween era (post-Graf, pre-Henin)
#3.. extremely poor showing during Henin era
#4.. cowering in face of true challenge (drama queen + aloof queen)
#5.. being lucky again (early retirement of Henin)


Now, please tell me sirs/madams, what aspect of above WS experience is meritorious and worthy of admiration ???
- having low skill in your job?
- just getting lucky?
- inventing schemes to deceive mass public?
- and then just getting lucky again?

How can any fair & objectively minded person not walk away feeling duped and angry (upon close inspection of their career) ???


Williams sisters have lived fully knowing and it will forever be known that they were the players who did it "before Henin" and "after Henin".

No amount of dramas or gs titles will change that...

(and i'm not gonna desecrate Henin's name by voting in a poll that supposedly compares Henin with the likes of Williams sisters :evil::evil::evil


. . . . .

Oh my! Someone needs a hit off the happy pipe... Here darling, have one of mother's special brownies....

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

it will forever be known that they were the players who did it "before Henin" and "after Henin"..

Nice little fantasy. Too bad Henin--during the zenith of her career--admitted to her fear of playing the Williams sisters. Too bad you cannot erase that. Aside from her many flaws (like her history of cheating), she destroyed her fans' dreams by stating the facts: she was no match for the Williams sisters at Wimbledon, which is one of the major reasons (along with her limited skills) she would never win the great Wimbledon title.

She was inferior.

 

[egn]

Nice little fantasy. Too bad Henin--during the zenith of her career--admitted to her fear of playing the Williams sisters. Too bad you cannot erase that. Aside from her many flaws (like her history of cheating), she destroyed her fans' dreams by stating the facts: she was no match for the Williams sisters at Wimbledon, which is one of the major reasons (along with her limited skills) she would never win the great Wimbledon title.

She was inferior.

This does not change what she did in her career. Yes she was inferior at wimbledon due to her weaker serve and less power. Venus was built for wimbledon, Serena as well. Henin not so much. I'm sorry but Serena>Henin>Venus no matter how you spin it. Henin has the better overall career than Venus even though she won no wimbledon. Henin was a bit more well rounded and that shows through.

Also Henin did not have limited skills stop being full of crap. Henin had amazing volleys, a great backhand, amazing power for her size, and ridiculous movement. The only part of Henin's game that would struggle at times was her serve, but it was still nowhere near as bad as say Safina, Dementieva etc.

 

[egn]

Thank you for articulating those important facts !

They once again affirm the essence of Williams sisters experience, which can be summed up as :

#1.. having low skill levels in their profession
#2.. being lucky to have early start during weak inbetween era (post-Graf, pre-Henin)
#3.. extremely poor showing during Henin era
#4.. cowering in face of true challenge (drama queen + aloof queen)
#5.. being lucky again (early retirement of Henin)


Now, please tell me sirs/madams, what aspect of above WS experience is meritorious and worthy of admiration ???
- having low skill in your job?
- just getting lucky?
- inventing schemes to deceive mass public?
- and then just getting lucky again?

How can any fair & objectively minded person not walk away feeling duped and angry (upon close inspection of their career) ???


Williams sisters have lived fully knowing and it will forever be known that they were the players who did it "before Henin" and "after Henin".

No amount of dramas or gs titles will change that...

(and i'm not gonna desecrate Henin's name by voting in a poll that supposedly compares Henin with the likes of Williams sisters :evil::evil::evil


. . . . .

In order for Henin to have an era she really needs to have super dominated. Henin shares her era with the williams sisters. Serena dominated Henin in 2002-2003 had Serena not existed it would have easily been more time for Henin at the top. Has it ever occurred to you Henin was lucky Serena vanished? You can spin it both ways.

 

[heftylefty]

If you just use winning % then 2.6% isn't much of a factor. But look at other stats. Henin 2007 was so dominant which she was wayyyyy ahead of everyone in race point at the end of the year. The fact is Venus wasn't dominating since she can't even end the year #1 in her entire career while Henin has 3. I'm not saying level of domination is a be-all and end-all, but it's still a big factor, and might be the reason a lot fans voted for Henin. Just saying.

I love how you twist yourself into knots when your own words are thrown in your face. "...Justine is more impressive and more dominant...." But when proven otherwise, Domination is not the be-all and end-all when it was never there to begin with.

You could gain some respect if you just take ownship of what you post.

 

[TMF]

I love how you twist yourself into knots when your own words are thrown in your face. "...Justine is more impressive and more dominant...." But when proven otherwise, Domination is not the be-all and end-all when it was never there to begin with.

You could gain some respect if you just take ownship of what you post.

I don't understand you. I stand by what i said and Henin was more dominant. They have similar achievements, it's close and it could be that one criteria(dominant) is reason why voters pick Justine. Atleast they don't use H2H or double like the WS fans are basing on.

 

[heftylefty]

I don't understand you. I stand by what i said and Henin was more dominant. They have similar achievements, it's close and it could be that one criteria(dominant) is reason why voters pick Justine. Atleast they don't use H2H or double like the WS fans are basing on.

Because you said it, doesn't make it true.

 

[TMF]

Yes she was dominant in 2007 but at the peak of her powers she still tanked a SF to avoid Venus.

Weak reply.

And you and me both know why Henin got more votes, and its not tennis.

WS fans talk about how much the WS is so popular and having more fans, even to argue they are bigger than Sharapova. So if there's any biased, it would be in favor of Venus rather than Justine.

 

[TMF]

If you have a poll about "Serena vs. Davenport, who's greater?", I have no problem voting for Serena simply I believe she's better. You guys think that I don't like the WS and that I would never vote for them in any debate. That's not true, I will vote for them if I feel they are better at certain poll. Just b/c I and other members voted for Justine doesn't mean they aren't being fair.

 

[jones101]

Weak reply.




WS fans talk about how much the WS is so popular and having more fans, even to argue they are bigger than Sharapova. So if there's any biased, it would be in favor of Venus rather than Justine.

Fans etc are immaterial to a players success on court. You can dress Sharpova up as much as you want, she is not in thir league professionally. As sucessful as shes been its nothing compared to the sisters. She may make more money, but in 20 years history will not regard her as some epic great you portray her to be.

Maria is not bigger than the WS by the standard that she would want to be compared to them - TENNIS CAREER. She is all aout the slams, the money is not important to her, Maris would rather win more titles. In this sense she knows she is not close to either.

"You both develop as people and players and have been through great moments and tough ones, but at the end of the day, she has 13 Grand Slams and I have three," Sharapova said.

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=13490&zoneid=25

I think Venus is better than Henin period, and especially in the context of this thread.

'Who is greater?'

Doubles, H2H, overall careers, top 10/5 finishes, titles, finals, time at no 1, H2H with peers, impact on game, prize money, dominace etc ALL need to be factored into such a discussion, not just cherrypicking relevant stats to your benefit.

 

[TMF]

Because you said it, doesn't make it true.

We all have different opinion. From a neutral side, I believe it's hard for voters to pick either Justine or Venus since it's close. It's not a slam dunk, and I think these voters took their time to evaluate their career and Justine just happened to edge Venus.

It's like comparing Magic to Bird in basketball. It's very close, but one of them will end up with more votes in a poll. Agree?

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

This does not change what she did in her career. Yes she was inferior at wimbledon due to her weaker serve and less power. Venus was built for wimbledon, Serena as well. Henin not so much. I'm sorry but Serena>Henin>Venus no matter how you spin it. Henin has the better overall career than Venus even though she won no wimbledon. Henin was a bit more well rounded and that shows through.

Sorry, but Venus has the overall superior career, while Henin--outside of the FO was never consistent/dominant (USO) or a factor at all (Wimbledon), which are glaring problems none of her other achievements can erase.

Also Henin did not have limited skills stop being full of crap.

Her failure to win Wimbledon illustrated the limits of her skills whether you accept this or not.

Henin had amazing volleys

...not "amazing" enough to be effective at Wimbledon, while others, such as Venus, Serena and Mauresmo's volleys were effective and part of a larger game.

 

[fedhingis515]

In order for Henin to have an era she really needs to have super dominated. Henin shares her era with the williams sisters. Serena dominated Henin in 2002-2003 had Serena not existed it would have easily been more time for Henin at the top. Has it ever occurred to you Henin was lucky Serena vanished? You can spin it both ways.

Over Venus?

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

You can dress Sharpova up as much as you want, she is not in thir league professionally.

...and certainly not an impressive player of her--or any generation.

I think Venus is better than Henin period, and especially in the context of this thread.

'Who is greater?'

Doubles, H2H, overall careers, top 10/5 finishes, titles, finals, time at no 1, H2H with peers, impact on game, prize money, dominace etc ALL need to be factored into such a discussion, not just cherrypicking relevant stats to your benefit.

...and the funny thing is that one could remove a few items from Venus' list of accomplishments, and she still has greater achievements than Henin--the latter known as much for a history of being a frightened cheater as her titles...and the inability to win a certain major.

 

[jones101]

...and certainly not an impressive player of her--or any generation.

...and the funny thing is that one could remove a few items from Venus' list of accomplishments, and she still has greater achievements than Henin--the latter known as much for a history of being a frightened cheater as her titles...and the inability to win a certain major.

Exactly. Venus has a great career, and a well rounded one and while Henin has had good singles carrer, she will always been known for gamesmanship/poor sportsmanship.

Venus is a 21 times grandslam champion and a 3 time gold medal olympian.
Henin is a 7 times granslam champion and a 1 time gold medal olympian.

Some examples of Henins gamesmanship.

1 - The Hand Incident - FO 2003 incident which she and her coach both admitted.

2 - The Kim Incident - AO 04 - put her hand up on break point to indicate the ball was out, years later admits she saw the ball hit the line, which coincedntly left her serving for the match.

3 - The GS Retitrement Incident - AO 06 - After admitting she was 'perfect' pre final, she suddenly developed cramps after being comprehensively outplayed by Mauresmo. Appraently so bad she could have played 4 extra games/10 minutes and allow a fellow player (and friend at that point) the thrill of a maiden GS victory by winning the final point.

4 - The Davis Cup Incident - 2006 Finals. Partnered with Kim in the finals, she was in the deciding rubber, 0-2 down in the 3rd sets suddenly retires, citing abdominal pain, this giving Italy the title. Apparently so bad she couldn't fight back (WITH KIM) in the 3rd set, and robbed Italy of the experence of winning the final point.

5 - The Wimbledon TankJob - 2007 SF. Loses to unherealed Bartoli in the SF (who admitteldy played well). Later admits she tanked the match as she was 'scared' to face Venus in the final.

Also, and this is pure speculation, but anybody notice how on court coaching was first trialled in 2007 when Henin was undisputed number 1? I beleive she may have been the instigator for it.

Ever think maybe the WTA knew they couldn't stop such blatent coaching. It is not good to have the number 1 player needing instructions during matches, so they tried to regulate it in a more fan friendly way, thus making players and spectators happy (even though Justine/Carlos disregarded the rules still and continued to communicate in matches from the sidelines)?

 

[Tanya]

Over Venus?

Certainly not. I think the fact that Henin was unable to defeat Venus until 2007 is proof enough of that.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Henin defeated Venus 6-1, 6-4 on clay in 2001. Or did you mean outside of clay?

 

[TMF]

Doubles, H2H, overall careers, top 10/5 finishes, titles, finals, time at no 1, H2H with peers, impact on game, prize money, dominace etc ALL need to be factored into such a discussion, not just cherrypicking relevant stats to your benefit.

We are not discussion about who's the goat in double(which the title belongs to Martina), so no one care. The most objective comparison is how the fare against the playing field and their results.

 

[TMF]

...and the funny thing is that one could remove a few items from Venus' list of accomplishments, and she still has greater achievements than Henin--the latter known as much for a history of being a frightened cheater as her titles...and the inability to win a certain major.

Henin was able to win 3 out of 4 slam events to Venus only 2. Edge goes to Justine again.

Unless if you want to argue 2 > 3 like you been arguing with Towser83 in past few pages.

 

[Tanya]

Henin defeated Venus 6-1, 6-4 on clay in 2001. Or did you mean outside of clay?

Ah, my mistake. I remembered the H2H before the 2007 USO as 7-0 in favor of Venus--guess it must have been 7-1. But my point still stands.

We are not discussion about who's the goat in double(which the title belongs to Martina), so no one care.

That is irrelevant because no one is claiming that Venus nor Henin is GOAT in singles, either (besides, no one's saying Venus is doubles GOAT anyway). ALL results should be counted in my opinion.

 

[Towser83]

Ah, my mistake. I remembered the H2H before the 2007 USO as 7-0 in favor of Venus--guess it must have been 7-1. But my point still stands.

Yeah Henin actually won their first meeting and then lost 7 in a row. But they didn't play in 2004,2005 or 2006. So saying she didn't beat her (for a second time) until 2007 is a bit misleading, I it's true but it looks like a longer time of losing because they didn't meet between 2003 and 2007. You might as well say Venus never beat her after the AO 2003 - thus she hasn't beaten her in 8 years. When you put it like that it sounds different and is rather misleading.

 

[krz]

Give it a rest guys. The quiet/less biased/more objective majority has spoken.

 

[Tanya]

Yeah Henin actually won their first meeting and then lost 7 in a row. But they didn't play in 2004,2005 or 2006. So saying she didn't beat her (for a second time) until 2007 is a bit misleading, I it's true but it looks like a longer time of losing because they didn't meet between 2003 and 2007. You might as well say Venus never beat her after the AO 2003 - thus she hasn't beaten her in 8 years. When you put it like that it sounds different and is rather misleading.

True, however when I said what I said it was in response to the follow statement (particularly the part in bold):

In order for Henin to have an era she really needs to have super dominated. Henin shares her era with the williams sisters. Serena dominated Henin in 2002-2003 had Serena not existed it would have easily been more time for Henin at the top. Has it ever occurred to you Henin was lucky Serena vanished? You can spin it both ways.

You said it yourself Towser--Venus dominated Henin in that timeframe, which was the only point I was making.

 

[jones101]

We are not discussion about who's the goat in double(which the title belongs to Martina), so no one care. The most objective comparison is how the fare against the playing field and their results.

Cherrypicking yet again, and deviating from the title of the thread.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Henin was able to win 3 out of 4 slam events to Venus only 2. Edge goes to Justine again.

Unless if you want to argue 2 > 3 like you been arguing with Towser83 in past few pages.

Henin was a total failure at Wimbledon, and could not exhibit dominance (for even a short period) on any surface other than clay, thus she's not even a blip on the radar of 2nd best player of her generation. Anyone trying to deny that is living in the land of pixie dust and dreams--the only place where a player with only one surface strength could be the 2nd best of a generation.

It is not my problem that you have such a hard time living with truth.