Karatsev...I bet you 100% he isn't using a next-gen spec.

[aaron_h27]

Next gen players like Tiafoe, Kyrgios, Giron etc...all use low SW, open string pattern, which is not an effective set-up to dominate the ATP. I can bet you Karatsev's specs are different than most next-gen players. His ball is much heavier and more effective, he reminds me of Safin a bit.

I can't wait until his specs come out.

 

[d-quik]

18.1oz 435SW?

 

[forehandbackagain]

As per tennisnerd and dr325i:

Mold/Layup: PT57A2
String pattern: 18×20
Weight: 340g strung
Balance: 32 cm / 6 pts HL
Swing weight strung: 340
String: Head Hawk 1.25

dr325i said these were only approximate specs, though. He didn't want to post the unstrung specs.

 

[daddabompa]

Next gen players like Tiafoe, Kyrgios, Giron etc...all use low SW, low static, which is not an effective set-up to dominate the ATP. I can bet you Karatsev's specs are different than most next-gen players. His ball is much heavier and more effective, he reminds me of Safin a bit.

I can't wait until his specs come out.

You can find the topic quite discussed here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/asian-karatsev-racquet.690468/

 

[Bill Tilden]

18.1oz 435SW?

SW 435? Higher? Probably, but not with the weight of the racquet, with the weight of the arm + racquet and an axis of rotation at shoulder.

 

[Bender]

As per tennisnerd and dr325i:

Mold/Layup: PT57A2
String pattern: 18×20
Weight: 340g strung
Balance: 32 cm / 6 pts HL
Swing weight strung: 340
String: Head Hawk 1.25

dr325i said these were only approximate specs, though. He didn't want to post the unstrung specs.

You can find the topic quite discussed here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/asian-karatsev-racquet.690468/

So not only is OP wrong, there is a well-known thread that he could've checked for the specs before making a prediction on something that's already known

 

[Harry_Wild]

What age range is next generation players?

 

[Keizer]

At this point people need to realize that pros can absolutely murder the ball at lower swing weights. Rublev, Federer, Karatsev, Sinner, Thiem, Kyrgios are all in the 340-345 range for SW.

 

[dr325i]

At this point people need to realize that pros can absolutely murder the ball at lower swing weights. Rublev, Federer, Karatsev, Sinner, Thiem, Kyrgios are all in the 340-345 range for SW.

Ruby -- below 340! STRUNG.

 

[aaron_h27]

At this point people need to realize that pros can absolutely murder the ball at lower swing weights. Rublev, Federer, Karatsev, Sinner, Thiem, Kyrgios are all in the 340-345 range for SW.

No one said anything about murdering the ball, I'm talking about winning matches/winning titles consistenly like Karatsev has. There are college guys that hit pretty hard, and guess where they are? Still in COLLEGE.

345 is not a low SW.

and Kyrgios does not use a 345 SW.

 

[aaron_h27]

So not only is OP wrong, there is a well-known thread that he could've checked for the specs before making a prediction on something that's already known

Those are not confirmed specs, so move along sir

 

[dr325i]

Those are not confirmed specs, so move along sir

They are...

 

[aaron_h27]

They are...

approximate specs =/ confirmed specs

Or did I read that wrong above?

 

[dr325i]

No one said anything about murdering the ball, I'm talking about winning matches/winning titles consistenly like Karatsev has. There are college guys that hit pretty hard, and guess where they are? Still in COLLEGE.

345 is not a low SW.

and Kyrgios does not use a 345 SW.

Corrected: Kyrgios strung SW is 325 kg* cm2.
You are right, it is not 345.

 

[blablavla]

What age range is next generation players?

depends to which generation you compare

if you compare vs Sampras and Agassi, then one next genner just won BCN Open

 

[dr325i]

approximate specs =/ confirmed specs

Or did I read that wrong above?

Approximate within +/- 5g as I do not want to post actual unstrung spec. But then, reading how particular you are about Nick's SW (345 vs 343 LOL), I understand your concerns

 

[Keizer]

No one said anything about murdering the ball, I'm talking about winning matches/winning titles consistenly like Karatsev has. There are college guys that hit pretty hard, and guess where they are? Still in COLLEGE.

345 is not a low SW.

and Kyrgios does not use a 345 SW.

How many titles has Rublev won over the last year? What is his swing weight? You're making a correlation between swingweight and consistent results that doesn't really exist. Schwartzman has a very high swingweight, why is he dominating less than Rublev?

 

[aaron_h27]

Kyrgios strung SW is 343.
You are right, it is not 345.

delete.

 

[aaron_h27]

How many titles has Rublev won over the last year? What is his swing weight? You're making a correlation between swingweight and consistent results that doesn't really exist. Schwartzman has a very high swingweight, why is he dominating less than Rublev?

Rublev does not play with next gen specs, 18x20 pattern, 340ish SW is already higher than his other counter parts. His old specs were around 360g static.

Schwartzman is a top ten player despite physical disadvantages, so that only more proves my point...

Obviously talent comes into play, but we've yet to see anyone with a 320 SW dominate the ATP.

 

[Keizer]

Rublev does not play with next gen specs, 18x20 pattern, 340ish SW is already higher than his other counter parts. His old specs were around 360g static.

Schwartzman is a top ten player despite physical disadvantages, so that only more proves my point...

Obviously talent comes into play, but we've yet to see anyone with a 320 SW dominate the ATP.

How many ATP pros actually have a strung swingweight of 320? I’d wager that number is very small. Of players that have been tour for a few years, I can only think of Fritz, Nishioka and Verdasco potentially.

This could just come down to a proportionality issue. You have more players with a higher swingweight, so it is more likely that someone from that group is dominant.

 

[aaron_h27]

How many ATP pros actually have a strung swingweight of 320? I’d wager that number is very small. Of players that have been tour for a few years, I can only think of Fritz, Nishioka and Verdasco potentially.

This could just come down to a proportionality issue. You have more players with a higher swingweight, so it is more likely that someone from that group is dominant.

Yeah but why are more players using high swingweights? Just for fun?

 

[Keizer]

Yeah but why are more players using high swingweights? Just for fun?

Sigh, we’re splitting hairs here. Of course 99% of players are within a certain threshold of swingweight (330+). I do not consider 330 high (it is achievable in several retail rackets without any lead).

You said most next-gen players use low swing weights. I don’t believe that is the case unless you believe that swingweights below say 340 are low. Almost no players, next-gen or otherwise, are in the 320s. So the basic thrust of your thread is: “Karatsev is using a stick like 99% of pros”, which is obviously true.

 

[aaron_h27]

Kyrgios strung SW is 343.
You are right, it is not 345.

Please correct your post, Kyrgios static weight is 343g and 325 SW. It's important to have correct information on the boards IMO

 

[aaron_h27]

Sigh, we’re splitting hairs here. Of course 99% of players are within a certain threshold of swingweight (330+). I do not consider 330 high (it is achievable in several retail rackets without any lead).

You said most next-gen players use low swing weights. I don’t believe that is the case unless you believe that swingweights below say 340 are low. Almost no players, next-gen or otherwise, are in the 320s. So the basic thrust of your thread is: “Karatsev is using a stick like 99% of pros”, which is obviously true.

Kyrgios, Giron, Goffin, De Minaur, Tiafoe, are all in the 320-335 range, among others. I consider low SW <340

 

[Keizer]

Kyrgios 325 SW....Run along now.

What does that have to do with anything? Out of the top 100, how many are below 330? Please tell me.

Frankly, Kyrgios is proof you can beat the best players with a low swingweight, unless you’re going to tell me that he hasn’t won slams because of his swing weight rather than the fact that he is a terrible professional.

 

[Keizer]

Kyrgios, Giron, Goffin, De Minaur, Tiafoe, are all in the 320-335 range, among others. I consider low SW <340

Convenient you set 340 as the bar, given that it is exactly Karatsev’s swingweight. Carry on, LOL.

 

[aaron_h27]

Convenient you set 340 as the bar, given that it is exactly Karatsev’s swingweight. Carry on, LOL.

That has nothing to do with Karatsev, thats my own personal belief before this thread. Look up my posts. Again you've already posted 2-3 incorrect things in this thread, so you clearly don't FACT check anything before forming an opinion. You cannot add anything useful to this discussion.

 

[aaron_h27]

Approximate within +/- 5g as I do not want to post actual unstrung spec. But then, reading how particular you are about Nick's SW (345 vs 343 LOL), I understand your concerns

Can you clarify if 340 is also an approximate SW? or one was that actually measured? I am just curious about his exact specs! thanks

 

[dr325i]

Can you clarify if 340 is also an approximate SW? or one was that actually measured? I am just curious about his exact specs! thanks

310 unstrung

 

[aaron_h27]

So not only is OP wrong, there is a well-known thread that he could've checked for the specs before making a prediction on something that's already known

Please tell me how am I wrong? 18x20, 340 SW is not a next-gen spec (its still on the lighter side). Next gen spec is more like 325-330 SW with an open string pattern 16x19

 

[Keizer]

That has nothing to do with Karatsev, thats my own personal belief before this thread. Look up my posts. Again you've already posted 2-3 incorrect things in this thread, so you clearly don't FACT check anything before forming an opinion. You cannot add anything useful to this discussion.

I apologize for mixing up Kyrgios’s stock weight and swingweight. Then again, it doesn’t really change my opinion that Karatsev is playing a spec that falls within one of two sets ups that most all ATP players play.

I classify swingweights into two buckets: the classical high SW from the mid 2000s on (350+, Big 3, Murray, Zverev, Medvedev, Nishikori etc) and then the new lower SW (335-350; FAA, Thiem, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Sinner). Then you have the extremely low outliers like Verdasco, Nishioka, Kyrgios, Goffin (although I don’t actually know his SW, just that he is playing a stock blade 18x20). I have no reason to believe this last group comprises more than a small fraction of pros. If there’s any analysis to be made, it is between the former two groups. For example, I’m not comfortable saying Kyrgios or Verdasco have underperformed because their swingweights are low — there are too many confounding variables to make that conclusion.

 

[stefmeister]

Next gen players like Tiafoe, Kyrgios, Giron etc...all use low SW, open string pattern, which is not an effective set-up to dominate the ATP. I can bet you Karatsev's specs are different than most next-gen players. His ball is much heavier and more effective, he reminds me of Safin a bit.

I can't wait until his specs come out.

well he was never next-gen

 

[aaron_h27]

I apologize for mixing up Kyrgios’s stock weight and swingweight. Then again, it doesn’t really change my opinion that Karatsev is playing a spec that falls within one of two sets ups that most all ATP players play.

I classify swingweights into two buckets: the classical high SW from the mid 2000s on (350+, Big 3, Murray, Zverev, Medvedev, Nishikori etc) and then the new lower SW (335-350; FAA, Thiem, Tsitsipas, Rublev, Sinner). Then you have the extremely low outliers like Verdasco, Nishioka, Kyrgios, Goffin (although I don’t actually know his SW, just that he is playing a stock blade 18x20). I have no reason to believe this last group comprises more than a small fraction of pros. If there’s any analysis to be made, it is between the former two groups. For example, I’m not comfortable saying Kyrgios or Verdasco have underperformed because their swingweights are low — there are too many confounding variables to make that conclusion.

I don't think it's as simple as higher SW = better results, that's not what I was getting at. I think there's an optimal range of SW to play high level tennis. It depends on the players strengths/weaknesses I do absolutely believe 100% anyone using a stick in the 320's is leaving a lot of power/spin off the table. Whether or not that improves their results? I don't know.

Most older pros use SW > 350 like you said until recently the last 6-8 years specs have gotten lighter but why? Courts have gotten slower and strings are stiffer. If slam winners over the last decade have used SW's >~ 350, then why wouldn't up and coming players copy or atleast try to get specs close to that? They must believe the lighter spec is superior.

Of course there are unique players, but a large majority of next-gen players had similar specs, and they have not been able to really to make large strides on tour. Djok, Nadal and Fed have dominated the past 4-5 years. although that seems to be changing in 2021. Again it could be a talent thing, so racket specs may have nothing to do with it, but even new players who have had success on tour are using higher swingweights (Medvedev, Nishikori, Schwartzman, Zverev, Thiem)

Is it a matter of better players use higher swingweights? Or higher swingweights make better players? Could be both.

 

[McLovin]

No one said anything about murdering the ball, I'm talking about winning matches/winning titles consistenly like Karatsev has.

Ummm...have you checked Karatsev’s stats? He has 1 career title and a career win/loss of 20/15. He’s 27 years old. Not sure how that qualifies as “winning matches/winning titles consistently”...

 

[ChaelAZ]

What age range is next generation players?

I think they have extended it up to any player under 30, as long as they can beat the big 3 and change the conversation to someone "younger" won.

 

[El_Yotamo]

Ruby -- below 340! STRUNG.

Well I doubt anyone with a SW above 5100864472103711080930193283927293363034467198288537603946858243798113070849885229213136372954649899020351011761059778806133788936493577434500361683415188982472401346338884861141422740713138880590833811293694271365431210201323723370857438895402320411929506183969598863382952818389369235832500911641281417808599643869688726988699026312600541139182490611593239476045067552375315738712391517997520501623882216426473863468587538818060875218240504105205706947492365188106425431862641010474387420418554164289649410408629854298787786204180850445367165509339805260836237886088058511128061771315622325534263276929061018352747735327201401241600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 kgcm^2 would have any chance at swinging it...

 

[blablavla]

Of course there are unique players, but a large majority of next-gen players had similar specs, and they have not been able to really to make large strides on tour. Djok, Nadal and Fed have dominated the past 4-5 years. although that seems to be changing in 2021. Again it could be a talent thing, so racket specs may have nothing to do with it, but even new players who have had success on tour are using higher swingweights (Medvedev, Nishikori, Schwartzman, Zverev, Thiem)

1. Djok, Nadal and Fed are getting older, which means more injuries, and longer recovery times not only between injuries, but also between matches & tournaments
2. the longer recovery time is as well applicable between peaks
so, 1+2 means that there will be naturally more upsets at less important events

3. when we look at what really matters, which is GS + #1 in ranking, well, next genners still are nowhere to be seen

 

[MRfStop]

Well I doubt anyone with a SW above 5100864472103711080930193283927293363034467198288537603946858243798113070849885229213136372954649899020351011761059778806133788936493577434500361683415188982472401346338884861141422740713138880590833811293694271365431210201323723370857438895402320411929506183969598863382952818389369235832500911641281417808599643869688726988699026312600541139182490611593239476045067552375315738712391517997520501623882216426473863468587538818060875218240504105205706947492365188106425431862641010474387420418554164289649410408629854298787786204180850445367165509339805260836237886088058511128061771315622325534263276929061018352747735327201401241600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 kgcm^2 would have any chance at swinging it...

 

[MRfStop]

As per tennisnerd and dr325i:

Mold/Layup: PT57A2
String pattern: 18×20
Weight: 340g strung
Balance: 32 cm / 6 pts HL
Swing weight strung: 340
String: Head Hawk 1.25

dr325i said these were only approximate specs, though. He didn't want to post the unstrung specs.

People take tehneess neeherd seriously?

 

[dr325i]

Well I doubt anyone with a SW above 5100864472103711080930193283927293363034467198288537603946858243798113070849885229213136372954649899020351011761059778806133788936493577434500361683415188982472401346338884861141422740713138880590833811293694271365431210201323723370857438895402320411929506183969598863382952818389369235832500911641281417808599643869688726988699026312600541139182490611593239476045067552375315738712391517997520501623882216426473863468587538818060875218240504105205706947492365188106425431862641010474387420418554164289649410408629854298787786204180850445367165509339805260836237886088058511128061771315622325534263276929061018352747735327201401241600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 kgcm^2 would have any chance at swinging it...

Nice!
Drink more Vodka

 

[Keizer]

I don't think it's as simple as higher SW = better results, that's not what I was getting at. I think there's an optimal range of SW to play high level tennis. It depends on the players strengths/weaknesses I do absolutely believe 100% anyone using a stick in the 320's is leaving a lot of power/spin off the table. Whether or not that improves their results? I don't know.

Most older pros use SW > 350 like you said until recently the last 6-8 years specs have gotten lighter but why? Courts have gotten slower and strings are stiffer. If slam winners over the last decade have used SW's >~ 350, then why wouldn't up and coming players copy or atleast try to get specs close to that? They must believe the lighter spec is superior.

Of course there are unique players, but a large majority of next-gen players had similar specs, and they have not been able to really to make large strides on tour. Djok, Nadal and Fed have dominated the past 4-5 years. although that seems to be changing in 2021. Again it could be a talent thing, so racket specs may have nothing to do with it, but even new players who have had success on tour are using higher swingweights (Medvedev, Nishikori, Schwartzman, Zverev, Thiem)

Is it a matter of better players use higher swingweights? Or higher swingweights make better players? Could be both.

I honestly believe the tweeners/poly arms race in the juniors that has led to compact "modern" forehands because it is difficult to be competitive against topspin as a young player if you are using a classical grip/spec. I was watching Nalbandian's debut vs Courier (using POG) and Djoker's AO 2005 match against Safin (using LM Rad Tour presumably) and I noticed how long their forehand swingpaths used to be -- their rackets were finishing behind their backs in WTA style. I honestly think that is a consequence of using these heavier sticks as juniors. As they got stronger, they could abbreviate your swingpath somewhat and still handle a high SW (you can see that the Nalbandian and Djoker FHs became more "ATP" style later on in their careers). With tweeners though, you can generate great pace with more abbreviated mechanics, and that works in the juniors where you don't really need those higher swingweights to help stabilize the return game or play closer to the baseline.

I just think they're used to the light spec and don't want to risk a significant SW adjustment messing up their technique.

 

[aaron_h27]

I honestly believe the tweeners/poly arms race in the juniors that has led to compact "modern" forehands because it is difficult to be competitive against topspin as a young player if you are using a classical grip/spec. I was watching Nalbandian's debut vs Courier (using POG) and Djoker's AO 2005 match against Safin (using LM Rad Tour presumably) and I noticed how long their forehand swingpaths used to be -- their rackets were finishing behind their backs in WTA style. I honestly think that is a consequence of using these heavier sticks as juniors. As they got stronger, they could abbreviate your swingpath somewhat and still handle a high SW (you can see that the Nalbandian and Djoker FHs became more "ATP" style later on in their careers). With tweeners though, you can generate great pace with more abbreviated mechanics, and that works in the juniors where you don't really need those higher swingweights to help stabilize the return game or play closer to the baseline.

I just think they're used to the light spec and don't want to risk a significant SW adjustment messing up their technique.

That's really interesting for sure, I was watching a video that showed how Fed's forehand changed over the years to a smaller takeback. I wonder if that's the same for other players. Makes sense though, although Djok is still using the ATP style with 360 SW, haha.

 

[ron schaap]

probably because he isnt a next-gen.