Keeping the upper arm still at contact

a12345

Professional
As we move the arm forward from the shoulder to contact through shoulder adduction the question is should we continue with shoulder adduction through the contact or should it decelerate to keep it stable at contact.

main-qimg-41bc62ebbe0c0f513726b24a076a923d


So our ideal contact point is around 45 degrees in front and this can to some extent be considered the angle at the upper arm, created by the shoulder adduction.

It seems appropriate to me that at contact, you want to keep the upper arm pointing at contact for as long as possible as you hit through the ball, and the windshield wiper is coming from the internal shoulder rotation, which is essentially happening at the elbow.

In a video like this it appears that Djokovic's upper arm at contact is fairly stable (roughly pointing at the contact point) and that after contact hes essentially rotating from the elbow doing internal shoulder rotation.


The upper arm eventually pulls in only because of the weight of the racket turning over and its momentum brings the arm in, but for a short period at contact his upper arm/shoulder adduction decelerated to keep it stable.

However 2 caveats seem to exist on this idea.

1) On a flat or drive forehand it seems appropriate that shoulder adduction should go straight through the contact.
2) If you have a straight arm forehand, the videos ive seen are that the upper arm is not so stable and drives through the contact point (except Federer).

My principle view is, if you have a bent arm forehand to hit a heavy topspin ball you want to keep the upper arm stable at contact and simply pivot at the elbow when striking through the ball.

I wonder what peoples thoughts are on this.
 

a12345

Professional
Another example is Federer here


If you look at his upper arm, at contact it is not pulling across his chest, its still and stable for a brief period and only the racket turning over pulls his arm across his chest.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
You describe the forehand with no reference to uppermost body turn (the line between the two shoulders turns). Your illustration is to display one motion of the shoulder joint, not a tennis stroke.

Find Frank Salazar forehand taken from an above camera. Any other camera view from above - hard to find - would show you what is happening.

"It seems appropriate to me that at contact, you want to keep the upper arm pointing at contact for as long as possible as you hit through the ball, and the windshield wiper is coming from the internal shoulder rotation, which is essentially happening at the elbow."

Please show a picture or videos of "keep the upper arm pointing at contact."

Djokovic's upper arm looks oriented mostly down.? Can you show examples of what you are describing? I can tell you how to snip and post a frame from a video. You need to subscribe to a photo hosting website.

"internal shoulder rotation, which is essentially happening at the elbow."
Internal Shoulder Rotation does not happen at the elbow. Search: internal shoulder rotation

Google each term that your use. If it's not a tennis term you will probably find a reasonable definition. For all defined joint motions you will find reasonable definition and videos to show you.
 
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a12345

Professional
You describe the forehand with no reference to uppermost body turn (the line between the two shoulders turns). Your illustration is to display one motion of the shoulder joint, not a tennis stroke.

Find Frank Salazar forehand taken from an above camera. Any other camera view from above - hard to find - would show you what is happening.

Djokovic's upper arm looks oriented mostly down. Can you show examples of what you are describing?

After the body has finished turning we then use shoulder adduction to bring the arm forwards into contact.

So if we assume your arm is being dragged behind your back, its at -20 degrees. When it reaches level with your shoulders its at 0 degrees, and when it moves forwards to contact point its at 45 degrees (for arguments sake). And if your upper arm is pointing straight forwards its at 90 degrees.

What im suggesting is that once the arm has been pulled forwards to be at 45 degrees in front of the body which is our contact point, it decelerates and stays close to this angle for as long as possible, and only the momentum of the racket turning over eventually pulls it to 90 degrees.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Do you see 'keeping the upper arm still" in this video?

You can go to impact and then count backwards frame-by-frame, use the period & comma keys. How many frames are "keeping the upper arm still". For example, from 3 frames before impact the upper arm is still until 4 frames after impact.

If you take old tennis advice often it is not possible to confirm it in high speed videos. Then what evidence do you have?

Do you see this?

"What im suggesting is that once the arm has been pulled forwards to be at 45 degrees in front of the body which is our contact point, it decelerates and stays close to this angle for as long as possible, and only the momentum of the racket turning over eventually pulls it to 90 degrees."
 
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a12345

Professional
Do you see 'keeping the upper arm still" in this video?

You can go to impact and then count backwards frame-by-frame, use the period & comma keys. How many frame are "keeping the upper arm still".

If you take old tennis advice often it is not possible to confirm it in high speed videos.
On this video it looks like hes driving through the ball rather than doing the windshield wiper.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Here's another forehand video


I have been through these in the past because there has been some old advice to 'keep your racket traveling in a line toward the target' around impact. It appears to me that the racket is travelling in a circle as far as I can tell. How do you see Serena's forehand?
 

a12345

Professional
Here's another forehand video


I have been through these in the past because there has been some old advice to 'keep your racket traveling in a line toward the target' around impact. It appears to me that the racket is travelling in a circle as far as I can tell. How do you see Serena's forehand?

I dont see much internal shoulder rotation with serena it looks like shes lifting her arm upwards at contact.

Although her upper arm does seem to be pointing to the right for quite a while before it gets to pointing forwards , but its not the technique im referring to.
 

a12345

Professional
Why do you believe that the arm "........stays close to this angle for as long as possible,...."

I think it slows down so that the arm lingers at the right spot at contact point, and also if we think of the Kinetic chain its passing from torso > shoulder adduction > internal shoulder rotation.

And its the shoulder adduction that slows down so that the next chain in sequence is the ISR.

The alternative would be that both shoulder adduction and ISR is happening at the same time through contact. But my thought about that is if I was pulling across my chest at full speed, my arm would be across my chest long before ive had time to do the windshield wiper.
 

Dragy

Legend
So our ideal contact point is around 45 degrees in front and this can to some extent be considered the angle at the upper arm, created by the shoulder adduction.
It varies quite a bit depending on what kind of shot you hit:
07FOREHAND-articleLarge.jpg
4908.jpg

Federer-Forehand-Contact-Point.jpg
federer-forehand-grip.jpg
 

Dragy

Legend
And to your question, don't stop it before contact, but extend your arm and racquet past contact to roughly here, then relax and let it wrap.
Nadaljpg

novak+djokovic+forehand+after+contact+2.jpg
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
@a12345

Could you describe the evidence that you have seen or names or links to the information sources where you heard about this?

I spent some time looking for the 'racket face stays oriented on a line toward your target' description that I heard said. I kept seeing circular paths when viewed from above that did not appear to have a special straight line section.

I'm interested in evidence. One piece of evidence to start.

Have your seen the special part of the path that you describe in a clear high speed video? I haven't seen anything special.

I can recall for many years, now and then trying to put a little straight line into the swing path of my racket head and keep the strings toward the target and other tennis myths based on my decades of ignorance. Looking for video evidence moves things along and shows that most tennis term descriptions are not accurate, or misleading or myths.

If you can't find what you hear or believe in high speed videos - it might still be true - but it's time for critical thinking and finding evidence.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Li1eYtsC_400x400.png


There does not appear to be much upward racket head motion from ISR in this composite picture. The upper arm appears to have a smooth motion.

Toly created many forehand composite videos that may show what you are looking for.

Search: Anatoly Antipin Youtube

Another with focus on wrist articulation.
 
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a12345

Professional
@a12345

Could you describe the evidence that you have seen or names or links to the information sources where you heard about this?

I spent some time looking for the 'racket face stays oriented on a line toward your target' description that I heard said. I kept seeing circular paths when viewed from above that did not appear to have a special straight line section.

I'm interested in evidence. One piece of evidence to start.

Have your seen the special part of the path that you describe in a clear high speed video? I haven't seen anything special.

I can recall for many years, now and then trying to put a little straight line into the swing path of my racket head and keep the strings toward the target and other tennis myths based on my decades of ignorance. Looking for video evidence moves things along and shows that most tennis term descriptions are not accurate, or misleading or myths.

If you can't find what you hear or believe in high speed videos - it might still be true - but it's time for critical thinking and finding evidence.

If we take something like this:


da.png


If we take the upper arm in line with the shoulder as 0 degrees I would estimate his upper arm angle in these 8 images as

1) 30 degrees, (i think this picture is hardest to estimate, but im basing this on the fact the racket is perpendicular so hes not pulled the arm through yet)
2) 70 degrees,
3) 75 degrees,
4) 80 degrees,
5) 85 degrees
6) 90 degrees
7) 120 degrees
8) 150 degrees

So as we get to pictures 2-6, at and after contact the upper arm is fairly stable, it is the lower arm that is turning through internal shoulder rotation, and then it eventually brings the upper arm round.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This is a clear video of Djokovic's forehand (the higher camera view is important). I'd see this forehand as Djokovic is moving his upper arm forward and rotating all by his uppermost body turn. In other words, for this forehand his uppermost body turn was very significant for racket head speed.

I believe that he also uses his shoulder joint before impact on a percentage of his forehands. Other players also use their shoulder joint before impact. Percentages to be determined by viewing many ATP players & WTA players.
 
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