Key to the ATP forehand - Out - In - Out

a12345

Professional
Weve seen a lot of threads about Pat the Dog, racket lag, and shoulder rotation, but one discussion thats been missing in my opinion, is one of the core elements in between that links them together which is the inside out swing path.

Pat the dog deals with the setup and vertical plane, however to get the lag and sling shot effect you need to maintain an inside out swing path in a figure of 8 motion on the horizontal plane to hit a proper ATP forehand. Your arm must go out - in - out to hit to create and hit with that racket lag.

It seems to me this never gets talked about much even though its fundamental. When analysing the ATP forehand most of the focus is on the forward and vertical motion, but the horizontal motion is key or it doesnt work.

These videos explain it well:


 
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Dragy

Legend
Weve seen a lot of threads about Pat the Dog, racket lag, and shoulder rotation, but one discussion thats been missing in my opinion, is one of the core elements in between that links them together which is the inside out swing path.

Pat the dog deals with the setup and vertical plane, however to get the lag and sling shot effect you need to maintain an inside out swing path in a figure of 8 motion on the horizontal plane to hit a proper ATP forehand. Your arm must go out - in - out to hit to create and hit with that racket lag.

It seems to me this never gets talked about much even though its fundamental. When analysing the ATP forehand most of the focus is on the forward and vertical motion, but the horizontal motion is key or it doesnt work.

These videos explain it well:


This feel tennis video has been discussed recently: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/pat-the-dog-or-not.639000/post-13186281
And in 2017: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-universal-swing-path.598284/
The inside-out swing is a thing, strongly related to low-to-high as well (flattish strokes have less inside-out). Meanwhile, the 8 thing seems a butification. Many FH backswings go over the top and never far outside, unless you consider back of the backswing, towards the back fence, to be that "out".
 

FiReFTW

Legend
WTA swing is also inside out lol... any type of seperation so that the ball is away from the body will mean the racquet will swing out away from the body unless you take the racquet back exactly behind the ball before you swing... another st*pid and useless analysis.
It seems youtube is not lacking these.
 

Rafaboy

Semi-Pro
therr is so much more to consider, if you are going to analize an effective swingpath such as this, than just swinging your arm in a prescribed path.

body position, grip, kinectic shift, tempo, footwork, takenack form, just to mention a few , the list goes on and on. oftimes leading to over analysis and confusion.

thats why, oscar has a lot to offer, by offering less.
 

a12345

Professional
WTA swing is also inside out lol... any type of seperation so that the ball is away from the body will mean the racquet will swing out away from the body unless you take the racquet back exactly behind the ball before you swing... another st*pid and useless analysis.
It seems youtube is not lacking these.

The WTA forehand is a semi circular swing from the body so its just a single motion.

The ATP forehand starts on the outside, and needs to go back in slightly, before going back out again in a tight space.

Because the racket starts on the outside many people end up pulling the arm straight through past the body.

After you start on the outside you still need to pull back inside and go back out again.
 

a12345

Professional
A good example is this video of Nadal from behind.


If you watch just his elbow it goes out in out very quickly.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
A good example is this video of Nadal from behind.


If you watch just his elbow it goes out in out very quickly.

@travlerajm you mentioned Nadal not taking it on the rise, so this was a good video to demonstrate one of the things I noticed Nadal has been working on and changing. He steps into the court more often, though still retreates back with old habits. But he can certainly take the ball early.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
At 5:00 mark on, is he practicing hitting winners? Those shots look very fast. How in the world could anyone chase down those shots in a match?

I like that camera angle. Shows the incredibly high pace.
Those shots are scary. Have no idea how Fed has managed to beat him the last few times. Guess Fed has to be careful not to give him an attackable ball, else it will be crushed like that.
 
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Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
Weve seen a lot of threads about Pat the Dog, racket lag, and shoulder rotation, but one discussion thats been missing in my opinion, is one of the core elements in between that links them together which is the inside out swing path.

Pat the dog deals with the setup and vertical plane, however to get the lag and sling shot effect you need to maintain an inside out swing path in a figure of 8 motion on the horizontal plane to hit a proper ATP forehand. Your arm must go out - in - out to hit to create and hit with that racket lag.

It seems to me this never gets talked about much even though its fundamental. When analysing the ATP forehand most of the focus is on the forward and vertical motion, but the horizontal motion is key or it doesnt work.

These videos explain it well:


I think it can provide a max acceleration of the wrist because the path has a very tight radius just before to after contact. Not sure if it's proper but it is the antithesis of hitting the outside of the ball. Can't say I've tried it much but it's on the list
 

a12345

Professional
I think it can provide a max acceleration of the wrist because the path has a very tight radius just before to after contact. Not sure if it's proper but it is the antithesis of hitting the outside of the ball. Can't say I've tried it much but it's on the list

One of the best ways to do it is with the elbow nudge. Not just elevating the elbow but a ever so slight nudge backwards.

This takes the racket briefly in, allowing you to fling/swing the racket back out again.

The elbow nudge creates a mini figure of 8 in a short space, I guess a little bit like skimming stones.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
I like that camera angle. Shows the incredibly high pace.
Those shots are scary. Have no idea how Fed has managed to beat him the last few times. Guess Fed has to be careful not to give him an attackable ball, else it will be crushed like that.
I got curious and checked out Nadal's real match at court level.

Ehh...in real match, Nadal hits with more reservation :) Certainly not as hard as he practices.

See for yourself. Point at 2:10

 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
One of the best ways to do it is with the elbow nudge. Not just elevating the elbow but a ever so slight nudge backwards.

This takes the racket briefly in, allowing you to fling/swing the racket back out again.

The elbow nudge creates a mini figure of 8 in a short space, I guess a little bit like skimming stones.

This sounds similar to the "Elbow The Enemy" tip on the serve... Maybe I will try this on the forehand.
:unsure:

TCePTqa.png
 

Curiosity

Professional
WTA swing is also inside out lol... any type of seperation so that the ball is away from the body will mean the racquet will swing out away from the body unless you take the racquet back exactly behind the ball before you swing... another st*pid and useless analysis.
It seems youtube is not lacking these.

It is odd that the video really teaches a set of pendular figure-eight motions that remind me more of a good swing in the wooden-racquet era. From my point of view approximately none of the essentials of a so-called ATP forehand are mentioned, and the ATP swing is definitely not a figure-eight pattern in any meaningful way, not for example as a way of determining the racquet's behavior or accumulation of racquet head velocity. Perhaps the figure-eight example is especially beneficial for young beginners?

It seems to me the core of a solid contemporary ATP forehand is this: Power the hitting upper arm via upper body rotation. (Fed, Rafa, and most others keep driving the hitting arm forward with UBR until the hitting arm/shoulder/upper back muscles kick in to pull the hitting hand briskly leftward/forward/upward (for a righty). At that point, just before the strong leftward arc, the racquet head should have so much velocity that the leftward sweep still sees the racquet head moving forward to contact very quickly.

The last motions of the hitting arm before UB rotation starts are usually to pull the upper arm back into tension with the shoulder, then lower the arm (straightening it near the lowest point if you hit straight-arm). For each major current player UB rotation is powered up just as the "pull out" and ESR are about to be initiated....although the pull-out (grip cap leading) is a misnomer: The rotating UB still leads the arm. The pull-out is really a push-out of the grip toward the expected contact point, which does depend on the incoming ball and player's position. The greater the grip push-out is, the larger the ultimate arc will be. For a given time taken, joined to the longer arc, the faster the racquet head speed will be into contact. (Forward "pull" isn't needed, as the UB rotation will force it.) The initial instant of UB rotation provides a safe and easy moment to rotate the upper arm into ESR, catchin the weight of the racquet on the large forearm muscles, which will immediately go into flex. See, e.g. Rafa, Fed, and most others.

The UB rotation can accelerate the heavy upper arm (and lighter forearm...) very quickly, faster than shoulder muscle can, and contains massive momentum once in rotation. ESR and "getting racquet head lag" are, to my mind, the same thing, given the needed initial angle between racquet and forearm at the time of UB rotation launch.

The magic of the ATP forehand lies, I believe, in the extent to which it maximizes the length of arc which the racquet head will travel when it has to make the sweeping left turn to keep up with the leftward moving hand ...while minimizing the time in which the arc is transited, from initial to final point, i.e. contact. The arc is maximized when the grip has been pulled (or pushed, POV) outward toward the expected contact point during the pull-out phase: With the racquet head in lag, the initial point of the arc (for the racquet head) is set well back, and taking the ball out in front determines the arc's maximum terminal point. The velocity of UB rotation leading the swing, plus the power of the leftward pull out/across/up into contact, determines the time taken for the racquet head to traverse the arc. So, contact! But with ISR exactly into the instant of contact to add power and topspin (via both tilt and upward velocity in the plane of the stringbed).

Can't find the figure-eight in that description. Perhaps that's just my foible?
 
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a12345

Professional

Fed does it as well. If you focus on just his elbow it goes ever so slightly back.

This means the racket starts right, goes slightly left, then goes back out right again, creating that inside out fling towards the ball.

It makes the shot smooth and fluid.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Federer view from slightly above. It starts a little late but the way to check out the 'out-in-out' term is to compare it to videos like this especially those made from 3D motion capture systems. I am confused by the racket on the ground and the arm hanging down to point at it - is there some unsaid connection to high speed videos of high level forehands? How do the OP demos compare? It is only a training demo so it could use any method and demos don't have to simulate strokes - so what are they doing?
To do stop action single frame on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.

One point that stands out to me - not mentioned in the OP or demonstrated - and I would check this first, is the upper arm's angle to the body. The uppermost body turns rapidly forward and that rotation may be the largest single source of racket head speed. ? See video. Here in this above view you can see the uppermost body and the upper arm clearly. For rotation two things are important for racket head speed: 1) the rotation axis location (spine) and 2) the distance of the racket head out from the rotation axis. From this overhead view the upper arm is seen to stick out from the body (Federer straight arm forehand). That upper arm orientation will be an important factor for racket head speed. I have not studied this issue by looking at a number of the top forehands but would look directly at high speed videos before assuming that a racket on the ground and 3 words is enough to train a high level forehand. There is variety in forehands and the upper arm is not always out, Djokovic has a bent elbow forehand, etc., what are the stats? When looking for videos, avoid low intensity practice and warm up forehands.

Djokovic high level bent elbow forehand. This one shows the upper arm out from the body. What do the stats show?

The forehand demonstrated in the OP at 24 sec has the upper arm touching the side of the chest for the forehand. ?

You can also search and find above camera views and pictures of stroke paths, particularly those created by Toly. Start with Anatoly Antipin's Youtube collection (Toly).

How does the upper arm look?
 
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Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame

Fed does it as well. If you focus on just his elbow it goes ever so slightly back.

This means the racket starts right, goes slightly left, then goes back out right again, creating that inside out fling towards the ball.

It makes the shot smooth and fluid.
I see, feel the figure eight mostly in the path traced by my hand, its out and away then as it lowered it's naturally in closer then out to the target. Elbow same but maybe a smaller arc.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The WTA forehand is a semi circular swing from the body so its just a single motion.

The ATP forehand starts on the outside, and needs to go back in slightly, before going back out again in a tight space.

That is a great analysis. The ATP forehand adopts this motion to lengthen the swing in a more constrained space, much like a long snake can remain coiled in a small cage.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The WTA forehand is a semi circular swing from the body so its just a single motion.

The ATP forehand starts on the outside, and needs to go back in slightly, before going back out again in a tight space.

Because the racket starts on the outside many people end up pulling the arm straight through past the body.

After you start on the outside you still need to pull back inside and go back out again.

These paths are of the center of the racket head? Not the hand?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Here is Frank Salazar's forehand with some in-out-in from:
1) IN - the early turn back=in? (14 sec) to
2) OUT - maximum racket takeback= out? (22 sec) to
3) IN - impact=in ? (24 sec).

This could as well be called racket lag. Is that what 'in-out-in' means where 'in' is closer to the ball's trajectory (projected to where it would have gone if not hit) and 'out' is farther away from the trajectory? There are additional forehand details.

Frank's upper arm may get closer to his body than the two earlier forehands, hard to estimate. ?
 
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Curiosity

Professional
........(edit: deletions)...............
One point that stands out to me - not mentioned in the OP or demonstrated - and I would check this first, is the upper arm's angle to the body. The uppermost body turns rapidly forward and that rotation may be the largest single source of racket head speed. ? See video. Here in this above view you can see the uppermost body and the upper arm clearly. For rotation two things are important for racket head speed: 1) the rotation axis location (spine) and 2) the distance of the racket head out from the rotation axis. From this overhead view the upper arm is seen to stick out from the body (Federer straight arm forehand). That upper arm orientation will be an important factor for racket head speed. I have not studied this issue by looking at a number of the top forehands but would look directly at high speed videos before assuming that a racket on the ground and 3 words is enough to train a high level forehand. There is variety in forehands and the upper arm is not always out, Djokovic has a bent elbow forehand, etc., what are the stats? When looking for videos, avoid low intensity practice and warm up forehands.
...........(edit: deletions)

Agree with those points. I've just reviewed Fed, Djoko, Rafa videos. All three get their upper hitting arm well away from the body before UB rotation. All three pull the upper arm back, creating stretch or tension at the shoulder joint. There seem to be at least three good motivations for getting the upper hitting arm well away from the side of the torso: First, if the hitting upper arm is well up at the start of UB rotation, then there is a partial locking at the shoulder, so that when rotation begins the hitting arm will be pulled into motion without slippage, making momentum transfer efficient and predictable. Second, having the hitting arm up does make the UB momentum boost the entire arm into motion quickly, transferring more of the UB momentum into arm motion. Third, with the hitting arm well up from the side enables more space for the racquet to lag into. Even Djoko, hitting double-bend, does not bring his hitting arm/elbow close to the body during rotation.

The point about "shoulder locking" you can test for yourself, arm will up versus the slack possible if the arm is close to the body when UB rotation begins. As for the importance of UB rotation speed, the ITF publication....
ITF Coaches Education Programme, Coaching High Performance Players Course, By Machar Reid & Miguel Crespo....
says that two features of the prep/early swing indicate likelihood of high racquet head velocity: First is separation angle on the turback (shoulders farther back than hips). Second is UB rotation speed, which exceeds muscular strength in importance and does not correlate with strength (so it's in the technique...). Finally, ISR into contact is credited with 30-35% of ultimate RH velocity into contact, which point out the importance of setting ISR up with early ESR, I think.

These points are surely reflected in the forehands of the three players whose strokes I just reviewed. Words are nice, but the videos tell the story beautifully.
 

a12345

Professional
These paths are of the center of the racket head? Not the hand?

Its the hand. Because the ATP forehand starts with the hand waiting out in front of the body there is a temptation to pull straight through, which you can do, its not an incorrect shot, and on occasion you may need to do it for example youre rushed.

But to get that true lag and fluid top spin shot associated with the Nadal and Fed type forehand you need that inside out figure of 8 motion, however small it maybe.
 
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