Does a serve have to kick at an angle to be considered a 'kick' serve? For instance, a lefty serving in the duece court, does the ball have to kick left, or if it just kicks high and forward, but not necessarily left is that still considered a 'kick serve' or just a topspin serve. I consider them both kick serves if it has topspin and kicks high.
Kick serve, or topspin serve?
- Thread starter myke232
- Start date
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
This subject does not seem to be widely known, understood or clearly discussed.
As soon as we get an ATP volunteer or any other volunteer with a strong kick serve that bounces to the right. Proof is a video away........... be first!
See also thread, Junior Twist Serve.
Buy reference Technical Tennis, Cross and Lindsay.
www.tennis-warehouse.com
As soon as we get an ATP volunteer or any other volunteer with a strong kick serve that bounces to the right. Proof is a video away........... be first!
See also thread, Junior Twist Serve.
Buy reference Technical Tennis, Cross and Lindsay.
Technical Tennis by Crawford Lindsey & Rod Cross | Tennis Warehouse
www.tennis-warehouse.com
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heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
The definition hasn't been nailed down. Some think a kick must kick up and to the side and a top spin serve is merely a serve with lots of top spin to give good clearance over the net and if it jumps up a bit then great.
The kind of kick we all marvel about, the one pros like Dominic Thiem can do is a true kick IMO and very few can do it. I've hit with only three players that can do it where it jumps as high as my shoulder and also juts out to the side.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
"Kick serve" is a very general, rather ambiguous term. It generally refers to a class of serves that hit the court at a steep angle and bounce fairly high. The older term, twist (or American twist) serve, usually referred to a kick serve with a pronounced deviation (angle) to the side when it bounced.
The terminology is not standard but some of us will use the term, twist, to refer to the old American twist type of bounce. While other serves might be referred to as topspin kick serves, top-slice kick or lob kick serves. Unlike the other versionss, the last version may or may not have much topspin associated with it. Usually, a generous amount of topspin will cause the ball to approach the court at a steep angle. But with a lob kick, the high trajectory will get the ball to kick high.
I fully expect Chas to go into a long, mystifying refutation of the explanation I am about to provide. But with my research of the physics and own experimentation, I am confident in the following.
The angled/side bounce seen on a twist kick serves is due to the presence of spiral spin (aka spiralspin, corkscrew spin, bullet spin, Z-axis spin, gyrospin). The spin axis for a pure spiral spin is in the same direction as the flight of the ball. We see this type of spin with badminton shuttles, American football passes and, often, with bullets). The spins we usually discuss for tennis are topspin, underspin and sidespin. These all have their spin axes perpendicular to the flight of the ball. Because of this, they will cause a curving of the flight due to a Magnus effect.
There is no Magnus effect or flight-bending with spiral spin. Its effect is seen only on the bounce. For a twist serve, when side spin causes the ball to curve to the Right, spiral spin will cause it to bounce to the Left.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Some studies have indicated that Twist serves do not have a very strong spiral spin component when they first come off the racket. However, if the ball is spinning at a very fast rate it will acquire more spiral spin as it flies through the air. As I understand it, the force of gravity acting on a very fast side spin component will cause the ball to acquire a larger component of spiral spin. If the sidespin is from L to R, then the resulting spiralspin will clockwise and the ball will bounce off to the R. If the sidespin, on a twist serve, is spinning in the other direction, the the spiralspin will be CCW (anti-CW) and the ball will bounce off to the L.
Note that I have referenced spiralspin to the ball flight direction prior to the bounce. However, if you look at the flight after the bounce, it appears that the ball is spinning with topspin with respect to its new direction. (Don't worry if that does not make sense at first).
Balls that bounce high and forward and do not deviate very much to the L or R, do not have a very strong spiral spin component. Either because they did not have much side spend to begin with OR simply because they are not spinning fast enough to generate a large spiral spin component.
The following images should help but might still be slightly confusing since we normally cannot hit the ball very much off-center at all
Note that I have referenced spiralspin to the ball flight direction prior to the bounce. However, if you look at the flight after the bounce, it appears that the ball is spinning with topspin with respect to its new direction. (Don't worry if that does not make sense at first).
Balls that bounce high and forward and do not deviate very much to the L or R, do not have a very strong spiral spin component. Either because they did not have much side spend to begin with OR simply because they are not spinning fast enough to generate a large spiral spin component.
The following images should help but might still be slightly confusing since we normally cannot hit the ball very much off-center at all
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Thats from a lefty perspective right? and needs to be reversed for the less demonic on the board.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Actually, it can be taken for either righties or for more sinister types, like moi. I did not really specify if I was talking about the server's perspective or the receiver's perspective.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
If each of these points is true, everything about the kick serve becomes extremely simple and understandable.
Believe it or not, but find out what is true above all!
1) Ball Spin Vector Diagram. According to researchers' measurements, the kick serve has the spin vector components as shown in this diagram. The spin vector is the arrow and the 3 vector components are shown on each axis. The longer the arrow or component, the higher the spin rate.
2) Coordinate System to Show Spin Components. These spin components, as shown, are referenced to the court lines and vertical, x,y,z.
3) Another Coordinate System Based on Ball Trajectory. An alternate way to reference the components of the spin vector is to use the tennis terms top spin, side spin and gyro or spiral spin. But these terms are referenced to the ball's trajectory, not to the court lines. Both of these coordinate systems have components that are about the same just after ball impact. I had not seen the two coordinate systems pointed out in the cut and paste world of the internet. A poster pointed them out to me. tr..j?
4) Spin Axis Keeps the Same Direction Impact to the Bounce. The spin axis that you see in the ball diagram, stays about the same from impact to the bounce as the ball travels in 3D space relative to the court lines. This point is so simple. The ball acts like a gyroscope and keeps the spin axis direction the same. Rod Cross states it somewhere, I believe, can't find.
5) In the Ball Trajectory Reference System the Components Change with the Trajectory. But the spin vector component terms top spin, sidespin and spiral spin change as the ball moves across the court as the trajectory direction changes because of gravity and the aerodynamics of a spinning ball. Don't use those tennis terms after launch or you will get very mixed up for years as I did.
6) Bounce to Right & Felt on Court. Now, about the bounce to the right side (for a rightie server) - imagine lowering the spinning ball in the spin picture above to the court surface, and assume that kick serve spin axis direction has stayed the same since impact (I believe that Cross states that somewhere). Then imagine the felt of the ball and where that felt is on the spinning ball as it first touches the court surface - you will see that the ball would bounce to the right. Probably the ball also distorts on the court during the bounce. Where are the videos of the kick serve bounce that show ball spin? Demo. If you have any trouble, drill holes in a tennis ball and put a pencil through its center. Align the pencil with the spin vector, spin it and lower in onto a surface.
7) How do You First Touch the Top Half of the Ball? Last, how do you get the racket face to first touch on the top half of the ball as shown by the arrow in Cross and Lindsay's Technical Tennis?
The racket face & shaft must be tilted closed by about 13-15 degrees approaching impact. Closed means the highest edge of the racket is more forward. This angle is special for the kick serve. After impact starts, the ball probably cups into the strings, strings and ball distort and things get too complicated. But just before first touch, we can make sense of that one closed angle using average high speed video capabilities.
I believe that the 'top spin serve' will not have the racket face tilt of the kick serve and will not bounce to the right. I believe that the top spin racket face is not closed at impact. See Cross's diagrams. Needs work.....to guess the ball spin diagram for a top spin serve. I'd rather see research measurements.
It took me years to decode these hidden messages from the Tennis Serve Nuthouse.
All true or any of the above false? Does anyone disagrees on any one point? Does anyone agree on all.....?
I hope that Rod Cross has done, or will do, high speed video experiments to verify or disprove the above points.
SEARCH_KICK_SERVE
Believe it or not, but find out what is true above all!
1) Ball Spin Vector Diagram. According to researchers' measurements, the kick serve has the spin vector components as shown in this diagram. The spin vector is the arrow and the 3 vector components are shown on each axis. The longer the arrow or component, the higher the spin rate.
2) Coordinate System to Show Spin Components. These spin components, as shown, are referenced to the court lines and vertical, x,y,z.
3) Another Coordinate System Based on Ball Trajectory. An alternate way to reference the components of the spin vector is to use the tennis terms top spin, side spin and gyro or spiral spin. But these terms are referenced to the ball's trajectory, not to the court lines. Both of these coordinate systems have components that are about the same just after ball impact. I had not seen the two coordinate systems pointed out in the cut and paste world of the internet. A poster pointed them out to me. tr..j?
4) Spin Axis Keeps the Same Direction Impact to the Bounce. The spin axis that you see in the ball diagram, stays about the same from impact to the bounce as the ball travels in 3D space relative to the court lines. This point is so simple. The ball acts like a gyroscope and keeps the spin axis direction the same. Rod Cross states it somewhere, I believe, can't find.
5) In the Ball Trajectory Reference System the Components Change with the Trajectory. But the spin vector component terms top spin, sidespin and spiral spin change as the ball moves across the court as the trajectory direction changes because of gravity and the aerodynamics of a spinning ball. Don't use those tennis terms after launch or you will get very mixed up for years as I did.
6) Bounce to Right & Felt on Court. Now, about the bounce to the right side (for a rightie server) - imagine lowering the spinning ball in the spin picture above to the court surface, and assume that kick serve spin axis direction has stayed the same since impact (I believe that Cross states that somewhere). Then imagine the felt of the ball and where that felt is on the spinning ball as it first touches the court surface - you will see that the ball would bounce to the right. Probably the ball also distorts on the court during the bounce. Where are the videos of the kick serve bounce that show ball spin? Demo. If you have any trouble, drill holes in a tennis ball and put a pencil through its center. Align the pencil with the spin vector, spin it and lower in onto a surface.
7) How do You First Touch the Top Half of the Ball? Last, how do you get the racket face to first touch on the top half of the ball as shown by the arrow in Cross and Lindsay's Technical Tennis?
The racket face & shaft must be tilted closed by about 13-15 degrees approaching impact. Closed means the highest edge of the racket is more forward. This angle is special for the kick serve. After impact starts, the ball probably cups into the strings, strings and ball distort and things get too complicated. But just before first touch, we can make sense of that one closed angle using average high speed video capabilities.
I believe that the 'top spin serve' will not have the racket face tilt of the kick serve and will not bounce to the right. I believe that the top spin racket face is not closed at impact. See Cross's diagrams. Needs work.....to guess the ball spin diagram for a top spin serve. I'd rather see research measurements.
It took me years to decode these hidden messages from the Tennis Serve Nuthouse.
All true or any of the above false? Does anyone disagrees on any one point? Does anyone agree on all.....?
Some studies have indicated that Twist serves do not have a very strong spiral spin component when they first come off the racket. However, if the ball is spinning at a very fast rate it will acquire more spiral spin as it flies through the air. As I understand it, the force of gravity acting on a very fast side spin component will cause the ball to acquire a larger component of spiral spin. If the sidespin is from L to R, then the resulting spiralspin will clockwise and the ball will bounce off to the R. If the sidespin, on a twist serve, is spinning in the other direction, the the spiralspin will be CCW (anti-CW) and the ball will bounce off to the L.
Note that I have referenced spiralspin to the ball flight direction prior to the bounce. However, if you look at the flight after the bounce, it appears that the ball is spinning with topspin with respect to its new direction. (Don't worry if that does not make sense at first).
Balls that bounce high and forward and do not deviate very much to the L or R, do not have a very strong spiral spin component. Either because they did not have much side spend to begin with OR simply because they are not spinning fast enough to generate a large spiral spin component.
The following images should help but might still be slightly confusing since we normally cannot hit the ball very much off-center at all
I hope that Rod Cross has done, or will do, high speed video experiments to verify or disprove the above points.
SEARCH_KICK_SERVE
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Dragy
Legend
@SystemicAnomaly the only legit (and very legit, actually) explanation for “acquiring” spiral spin I know says that it’s associated with the fact that ball flight path bends. What was minimal spiral spin leaving the racquet is now significant spiral spin by the bounce - if the ball path changed significantly - and big part of topspin is now spiral spin (related to the ground surface).
So the big sideways kick is a product of relatively high spin/speed ratio, diagonal spin and consequent big curve in the air.
The higher the ball speed and lower the spin rate, the less significant sideways bounce will appear.
So the big sideways kick is a product of relatively high spin/speed ratio, diagonal spin and consequent big curve in the air.
The higher the ball speed and lower the spin rate, the less significant sideways bounce will appear.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@travlerajm
I don't fully understand the mechanism of how the added spiral spin is acquired. The bending of the flight path is due to the two factors that I had mentioned.
Gravity along with the topspin component (& it's associated Magnus effect) produces a downward bending of the flight path.
The bending of the flight path to the Left (from a R-handed server's perspective) is due to the Magnus effect of the vertical spin axis from L to R. The resulting a spiral spin is a CW spin (again from the server's view). This results in a bounce in the opposite direction from the original bending.
Topspin, by itself, will not result in spiral spin no matter how fast it is spinning. Nor will underspin for underarm (slice) shots.
.
It appears to be the presence of sidespin, at a very high rate, that results in the acquired spiralspin. For twist serves, if the sidespin direction causes a bending to the L, then the associated spiralspin results in a bounce to the R. On the other hand, if the sidespin direction causes a bending to the R, then the acquired spiralspin will cause a bounce to the L.
However with underspin shots we see something a bit different. I'm specifically thinking about fast spinning drop shots that bounce dramatically to the side. In this case, the sidespin bending (of the flight prior to the bounce) and the dramatic side balance due to the spiral spin component are both for the same direction-- either both to the L or both to the R. We see this effect with many of the drop shots that Roger hits.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
This part doesn't quite make sense to me. Let's take the topspin-slice case where the ball does not acquire any (or very much) spiral spin -- most likely because the ball wasn't quite spinning fast enough.
The vertical axis side spin will cause a bending in the flight path. So, prior to the bounce, the ball is heading in a somewhat different direction than it was coming off the racket. The topspin present after the bounce will keep the ball heading in the same direction as it was prior to the bounce --- unless there is a sufficient post-bounce side spin to bend it even further in the same direction.
So in this case we do not see the ball going in the opposite direction after the bounce -- since there is little or no spiralspin component present to make it do so.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I suggest that everyone drill a hole through the center of a tennis ball and insert a pencil. As the rotating ball flies across the court & net to the bounce, the rotation axis just after racket impact stays the same to the bounce. In other words, the spin axis stays the same. However, the trajectory as it curves down, keeps increasing its angle to the court surface. If you lower the spinning ball to the court you will see the direction of the felt movement relative to the court surface when first touch occurs.
Very high speed video would take the description farther by showing that the ball probably flattens against the court and that might be very important for the bounce direction.
If anyone with a very high speed camera (very fast shutter) and a player available with a strong kick serve would like to collaborate on the videography, use forum Conversation. I don't think that the bounce and ball distortion is difficult to video.
Otherwise, with the lack of new evidence, publications, new high speed videos, these very basic questions never seem to get answered.
---------------------------------------------------
To answer the OP question, the wide usage of 'kick serve' and 'top spin serve' does not appear to be based on clear definitions or understanding. For people involved in high level tennis, where kick serves and top spin serves are seen often, I guess the term usage would be consistent based on seeing the bounces,?, but I don't know. ? @JohnYandell
For example, suppose the players in your tennis crowd often hit serves like this
Are those kick serves or top spin serves? To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.
I don't believe that many people anywhere would know the points in post #8, or other equivalent points.
For me, the kick serve is best described by the ball spin diagram and the bounce high and to the right (as seen by the rightie server). If the ball bounces high, but not to the right, I believe the term 'top spin serve' should be used. In wide tennis usage, it's a zoo. ?
But when you hear 'kick' or 'top spin' said, I don't think that you should assume, that there is a defined meaning, just sort of typical undefined tennis usage. If undefined terms are OK - the opposite of scientific - then poorly defined terms tend to spread in the cut and paste information age.
I have some video evidence for the kick serve that's been posted often. Especially lacking is scientific video evidence. The kick serve bounce should always be recorded along with the serve.
I've posted on the kick serve. The thread Junior Twist Serve has links to other kick serve information.
For posts before 2021, I did not understand how 'spiral spin' was aligned with the ball trajectory and changed as the ball crossed the court. Careful in reading my posts prior to ~2021 when I discuss 'spiral spin'.
Very high speed video would take the description farther by showing that the ball probably flattens against the court and that might be very important for the bounce direction.
If anyone with a very high speed camera (very fast shutter) and a player available with a strong kick serve would like to collaborate on the videography, use forum Conversation. I don't think that the bounce and ball distortion is difficult to video.
Otherwise, with the lack of new evidence, publications, new high speed videos, these very basic questions never seem to get answered.
---------------------------------------------------
To answer the OP question, the wide usage of 'kick serve' and 'top spin serve' does not appear to be based on clear definitions or understanding. For people involved in high level tennis, where kick serves and top spin serves are seen often, I guess the term usage would be consistent based on seeing the bounces,?, but I don't know. ? @JohnYandell
For example, suppose the players in your tennis crowd often hit serves like this
I don't believe that many people anywhere would know the points in post #8, or other equivalent points.
For me, the kick serve is best described by the ball spin diagram and the bounce high and to the right (as seen by the rightie server). If the ball bounces high, but not to the right, I believe the term 'top spin serve' should be used. In wide tennis usage, it's a zoo. ?
But when you hear 'kick' or 'top spin' said, I don't think that you should assume, that there is a defined meaning, just sort of typical undefined tennis usage. If undefined terms are OK - the opposite of scientific - then poorly defined terms tend to spread in the cut and paste information age.
I have some video evidence for the kick serve that's been posted often. Especially lacking is scientific video evidence. The kick serve bounce should always be recorded along with the serve.
I've posted on the kick serve. The thread Junior Twist Serve has links to other kick serve information.
For posts before 2021, I did not understand how 'spiral spin' was aligned with the ball trajectory and changed as the ball crossed the court. Careful in reading my posts prior to ~2021 when I discuss 'spiral spin'.
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Dragy
Legend
Imagine a pure topspin ball. Now add side wind, accelerating it leftwards. By bounce the ball is traveling to different direction. But topspin axis is still the same as it was initially.
So now if you consider the final ball speed direction right before bounce, the spin is not pure topspin for that reference. It’s now topspin+spiral spin.
Sidespin gives same effect as side wind, more or less. Spin axis doesn’t change against the ground reference. But against ball speed direction it does change.
IME "kick" is used ubiquitously for any serve that hops unexpectedly on the bounce (even crack, bad clay bounces, etc... lol)
but to me a topspin serve only "bounces straight" (in the direction it's traveling).... but for some that are used to only right-to-left bouncing
the "american twist" bounces to the right after the bounce (from the righty server's perspective), and to me is what i'm referring to when i say "kicker"... that said when i try to "kick" it doesn't always "bounce to the right", and ends up being just a topspin serve (even though i refer to it as a "kicker" as that is what i was trying to do.
Ask a simple question, find yourself in the middle of an old debate.
A kick serve bounces high. It doesn't need to go left or right, but it can, as long as it kicks high.
This is accomplished with topspin, but not every topspin serve kicks high.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Rod Cross publication on the kick serve.
www.researchgate.net
(PDF) The kick serve in tennis
PDF | A kick serve in tennis is not only the most difficult stroke for players to master but is also the most difficult stroke to understand. The ball... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net
IMO it's not enough to say it bounces high... because i know some folks that hit a "high" moonbally topspin serve... (ie. can hit as a sitter on the rise)... which has a different quality that a heavy topspin serve that bounces up and penetrates the court (harder to take on the rise)
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Googled some of these terms, spiral spin, and Google Quoted a 2009 forum post from @SystemicAnomaly!
I believe that whatever coordinate system is used, it has to be 3 orthogonal axes, say across the court, into the court and vertical as in the ball diagram and these do not change as the trajectory curves.
or
top spin axis, side spin axis and spiral spin and this whole coordinate system changes with the ball's trajectory. Is spiral spin always in the direction of the ball's changing trajectory? And then top spin and side spin are orthogonal to spiral spin and each other? Then the names of 'top spin' and 'side spin' are different than 'top spin' and 'side spin' axes based on the direction of gravity.
If there is a side wind we should ignore that for now. Of course, it's a factor.
I think that we are getting close to saying the same thing.
I believe that whatever coordinate system is used, it has to be 3 orthogonal axes, say across the court, into the court and vertical as in the ball diagram and these do not change as the trajectory curves.
or
top spin axis, side spin axis and spiral spin and this whole coordinate system changes with the ball's trajectory. Is spiral spin always in the direction of the ball's changing trajectory? And then top spin and side spin are orthogonal to spiral spin and each other? Then the names of 'top spin' and 'side spin' are different than 'top spin' and 'side spin' axes based on the direction of gravity.
If there is a side wind we should ignore that for now. Of course, it's a factor.
I think that we are getting close to saying the same thing.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
That moooball serve is what I'm referring to as the lob kick. Yes, it does bounce quite high but, as you say, it is using much easier to return because its spin components (topspin, side spin & spiral spin) are usually much less (slower spin rates) so it flies / behaves differently.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@myke232
Sorry, I'll have to reread this again later but I'm not following what you're trying to say here.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
So uh, since no-one really answered you properly, let me try.
- There is no set definition of what a kick serve is.
- Some say it's the serve that kicks high and back left
- Others say it just another name for the topspin serve, and call the type of serve that kicks left a "twist" serve.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
This video is a definition of a kick serve.
It's always good to imagine the highest level of knowledge in a field. I'm guessing that many college & pro coaches and other knowledgeable tennis experts, such as biomechanics researchers, would agree that this is a kick serve.
If this video were in slow motion, we would see more of the racket work. A side camera view, from the particular camera angle that I have described and shown, would show the racket closed by, say, 13-15 degrees just before impact.
Does anyone recognize this server?
Less effective bounces to the right would also be kick serves, but they would need clear video evidence showing enough right bounce. Enough right bounce to define it as a kick serve is not yet defined.
Tennis terms such as 'kick serve' or 'pronation'(for serve) are often named when first noticed, but not yet well understood. Then in later decades, we argue over each poster's personal meaning of the poorly defined and understood tennis terms.
It's always good to imagine the highest level of knowledge in a field. I'm guessing that many college & pro coaches and other knowledgeable tennis experts, such as biomechanics researchers, would agree that this is a kick serve.
If this video were in slow motion, we would see more of the racket work. A side camera view, from the particular camera angle that I have described and shown, would show the racket closed by, say, 13-15 degrees just before impact.
Less effective bounces to the right would also be kick serves, but they would need clear video evidence showing enough right bounce. Enough right bounce to define it as a kick serve is not yet defined.
Tennis terms such as 'kick serve' or 'pronation'(for serve) are often named when first noticed, but not yet well understood. Then in later decades, we argue over each poster's personal meaning of the poorly defined and understood tennis terms.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
How is different from what we've already said?
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Well it isn't different to what you and @heninfan99 said early on, but if OP ends up posting:
...nine posts into his own thread then clearly something was lost in translation. I'm hoping mine answers it, otherwise I will chalk it up to reading comprehension issues
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
It was a rather puzzling response. Some people are not too fond of shades of gray. Many prefer Y/N, Black/White or A/B answers:
I haven't read most of the other responses as yet, but to me yeah it has to break after the bounce (and it'll normally move in the air as a precursor to this), to be a kick serve. The other serves with a topspin component are the slice-topspin and topspin serves. I'm.assumimg that a kick serve is the same thing as a "kicker." The other school of thought is that a kick serve accounts for all of the above, in which case it has a different definition to that of a kicker.
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
that was a very fitting clip.
IMHO its really based on the bounce. If it bounces left from a righty server's view point that is a top slice. If it bounces pretty much straight, its a kick and if it bounces to the right its a twist. All can be called a kick and yes the nuance is often lost. Heck I have had people say its impossible to break to the left in the air and bounce to the right...
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Most kick serves can have a very mild break to a very substantial break. Many will refer to the latter as a twist or American twist serve.
If you look closely, a topspin or topspin-slice kick will bend one way prior to the bounce. This is due to a mild or significant amount of (vertical axis) sidespin. But after the bounce, the flight of the ball appears to straighten out rather than continue in the same direction it was going prior to the bounce. So, even though it is not breaking significantly in the other direction it does have a mild break from the pre-bounce direction.
In cases where the ball flight straightens out, the spiral spin component is very mild at the bounce. However, for a twist bounce, the spiral spin component is quite a bit more.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Have these people never seen a YouTube video of a twist serve or a monster kick? I think the first time I faced a twist serve was in the 1980s (or maybe the late 70s). The term, kick serve, was not even around TMK. Don't think I heard the "kick" terminology until sometime in the 1990s.
That first twist serve experience threw me at first. I kept moving in the wrong direction and would then get jammed. But, after 3 or 4 of them, I discovered I just needed to wait a split second longer to pick up the direction of the ball after the bounce. At that point, these oddball serves became easy to return.
Chinese or Japanese? Before a lot of Indian, Vietnamese, Korean and other SE Asian started immigrating to the US (about the 1980s), pretty much all Asians were Chinese (Cantonese) or Japanese over here.
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I would say last two could be called kick. But the first, the top slice, could not.
So I think from a righties serving perspective, if it bounces straight up, or to the right it's a kick, but if it bounces at all to the left, even with substantial topspin, it's not a kick, but a top slice...
First time I faced one was in the early 90s, at an indoor tennis club in VT. The kid served to me had an amazing kick serve. I had never seen one, heard of one or knew what one was at that point. I was just dumbfounded, I couldn't really comprehend what was happening...
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Don't agree. Most kick serves, including twisters are usually topspin-slice serves. That is, and appreciable amount of topspin and sidespin are both present. (Even serves that people refer to as topspin kick serves will usually have quite a bit of sidespin present).
The difference between a garden variety topspin-slice and a kick / twist is the amount of spin present and perhaps the initial trajectory). A TS-slice serve can incorporate a moderate to generous amount of spin. However if the TS component it's not large enough or if the initial trajectory is not upward enough, the TS-slice not have an appreciable upward kick.
And if the sidespin component is not very fast, then the ball will probably not acquire sufficient spiral spin to results in much of a twist (side) bounce
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Fortunately, the first twister that I had encountered had massive spin but not a whole lot of forward speed. He was probably serving a fair amount under 80 mph and they were reaching me at under 40 mph.
And he didn't have a lot of variety on his serve either. He appeared to love hitting it but didn't mix up his serves very much. It might have been very effective against many other players. But I don't think he counted on me figuring out how to deal with it so readily. Or maybe he was just interested in practicing it
I asked him about his serve afterwards but I didn't get a lot of insight on how he was hitting it. But I did notice that he was using gut strings and had a perfect wear spot in the middle of his stringbed.
When I learned to deliver kick / twist serve some years later, my forward speed on the ball wasn't very fast either. But as long as I varied the placement and mixed it in with other types of serves, my kicks were quite effective against quite a few of the players I used it against.
Yeah but isn't the sidespin going in different directions, since one is bouncing left and the other right? Or is the spin in the same diretion technically...
Interesting. The one I faced was very lively and bounced up to shoulder/head height. I was way too inexperienced to know how to handle it.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Assuming a right-handed serve here. Toss a bit more to the left (or a little bit behind your starting position). Stay pretty much sideways until after contact.
As long as you can hit decent topspin and topspin-slice serves then it becomes a matter of developing the timing and a faster RHS, for a much faster brush, to turn those into good kick / twist serves. With the much faster RHS, timing is a bit more critical.
Hitting the ball at a higher trajectory can also help a lot. Does not necessarily need to be a "lob kick". Just a bit higher launch angle then your usual serves.
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this is how i teach what the racquet is doing at contact, and imparting spin. i find that folks find this visualization something like the topspin pro helpful, so they kknow what they are trying to do at contact.
Cool, I'll keep at it. I was hitting some decent, consistent, high percentage topspin serves for a couple of sessions, but then the last few times out I've seemed to have lost it a bit. I think I'm opening the racquet face too much before contact and that is causing the issues. Almost like I'm pronating too early...
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Make sure you are staying sideways as long as possible and that the elbow is to the side, not in front...
So in this case he'd be advised to say (a) Chinese?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
After the bounce, a tennis ball will primarily, if not exclusively, be spinning with topspin. I believe that Crawford Lindsey brings up that fact in this technical article on the bounce in tennis:
Even tho the presence of spiralspin can change the direction of the bounce, that spin is subsequently seen as topspin in the ball's new direction after the bounce
According to Crawford Lindsey & physicist, Rod Cross', in their book Technical Tennis, sidespin itself, will have no effect on bounce direction.
But let me qualify that statement. Sidespin can have a very profound effect on the direction of the ball is moving just prior to the bounce. It can cause a significant bending, left or right, on the ball before it bounces. That is, the ball will be moving in a different direction just before it bounces than it had initially coming off the racket.
But Cross & Lindsey indicates that this sidespin no longer has an effect on all direction at the bounce itself.
So, in the absence of spiral spin, the ball will moving in the same direction after the bounce as it was just prior to the bounce. There might have been a very significant change in the direction prior to the bounce so it might give the appearance / illusion that the ball flight is bending even more after the bounce.
Now there might be a possibility that there is some residual side spin after the bounce that results in additional L/R bending. But I'm not absolutely certain that this ever occurs on most surfaces. The way that the court grabs the ball at the bounce, primarily, if not exclusively, will produce topspin after the bounce.
So, to answer your question, the sidespin on the ball is NOT spinning in a different direction when the ball balances to the left or to the right. It is the presence of spiral spin that is causing the difference in bounce direction.
Even tho the presence of spiralspin can change the direction of the bounce, that spin is subsequently seen as topspin in the ball's new direction after the bounce
According to Crawford Lindsey & physicist, Rod Cross', in their book Technical Tennis, sidespin itself, will have no effect on bounce direction.
But let me qualify that statement. Sidespin can have a very profound effect on the direction of the ball is moving just prior to the bounce. It can cause a significant bending, left or right, on the ball before it bounces. That is, the ball will be moving in a different direction just before it bounces than it had initially coming off the racket.
But Cross & Lindsey indicates that this sidespin no longer has an effect on all direction at the bounce itself.
So, in the absence of spiral spin, the ball will moving in the same direction after the bounce as it was just prior to the bounce. There might have been a very significant change in the direction prior to the bounce so it might give the appearance / illusion that the ball flight is bending even more after the bounce.
Now there might be a possibility that there is some residual side spin after the bounce that results in additional L/R bending. But I'm not absolutely certain that this ever occurs on most surfaces. The way that the court grabs the ball at the bounce, primarily, if not exclusively, will produce topspin after the bounce.
So, to answer your question, the sidespin on the ball is NOT spinning in a different direction when the ball balances to the left or to the right. It is the presence of spiral spin that is causing the difference in bounce direction.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I assume that this response was made in jest. But, nonetheless, I would say the answer is NO.
There are some Chinese Laotians but they make up less than 2% of the population of Laos.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Let’s confuse the OP more. There are those who call all high-bouncing topspin serves as kick serves. There are others who call it a kick serve only if it moves sideways in the opposite direction of a slice serve. Never the twain shall meet!
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Exactly why I like the older terminology, 'twist serve" (from the old American Twist), to refer to a serve that changes direction. Whereas "kick serve" is a broader, somewhat ambiguous, class of high-bouncing serves.
It was a genuine question spoken in jest. Apparently the Chinese make up 0.64% of the Japanese population, so Chinese it is!
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Thank you for playing but, NO, the answer we were looking for is African. Before they immigrated to either China or Japan, H Sapiens first came from Northern or Eastern Africa.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
1) Maybe the usage of the terms 'kick serve' and 'top spin serve' is well known among high level coaches and researchers, but we don't know that usage until they tell us and we can find a link and definition.
2) The usage of the terms 'kick serve', 'top spin serve', 'twist serve', is, in general, undefined.
3) The ball diagram shows a spin vector measurement of what tennis researchers called a 'kick serve'. That is actually a definition, but then we don't know how the kick serve with the spin vector shown in the ball diagram bounces.
4) Many threads are about poorly defined tennis terms.
We should search threads during the first years of this forum to see what progress we have made using words to describe tennis strokes and not high speed videos.
ISR was not known or acknowledged as the single joint motion that contributed the most to racket head speed for the serve until 1995. There is a clear high speed video of Gerald Paterson doing strong ISR in 1919. He was famous for his serve and he was called 'The Human Catapult'.
You are in the Tennis Serve Nuthouse of the Wild Wild West Phase of the new Information Age.
2) The usage of the terms 'kick serve', 'top spin serve', 'twist serve', is, in general, undefined.
3) The ball diagram shows a spin vector measurement of what tennis researchers called a 'kick serve'. That is actually a definition, but then we don't know how the kick serve with the spin vector shown in the ball diagram bounces.
4) Many threads are about poorly defined tennis terms.
We should search threads during the first years of this forum to see what progress we have made using words to describe tennis strokes and not high speed videos.
ISR was not known or acknowledged as the single joint motion that contributed the most to racket head speed for the serve until 1995. There is a clear high speed video of Gerald Paterson doing strong ISR in 1919. He was famous for his serve and he was called 'The Human Catapult'.
You are in the Tennis Serve Nuthouse of the Wild Wild West Phase of the new Information Age.
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