Kick Serve & Pronation question

[Munj]

I developed some bad habits on my serve. I was not swinging my racquet "on edge" knifing at the ball and pronating at the last second. Rather I was weakly brushing the back or side of the ball which caused a spinny, low pace serve, with practically zero penetration. It just sort of sits there and gets whalloped by anyone with a decent serve return.

I've been working on pronating and it definitely adds pace. I can consistently hit the back wall on one bounce but all I can seem to serve are flat serves that skid. And of course, my serve % is very low and I have problems serving wide.

Are there any tips or memory devices people use to pronate for a kick serve? I would much rather serve a higher percentage of first serves, with less pace and more kick, that still kick to the back fence on one bounce. I can't seem to figure out how to do anything other than a flat serve that sort of skids when it bounces. I don't understand how to combine pronation with "brushing" the ball from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Do you pronate "more" for a flat serve than a kicker? Should I pronate the same for all serves but alter my swing path? Or is it just a matter of moving my toss slightly behind my head?

Any advice or "tricks" are appreciated.

 

[dcjaybutchdc]

stick your hand out in front of you palm up. then touch your opposite side shoulder. you just experienced pronation.


pronation pronation pronation is the talk of the town. wtf!?!?!? who actually thinks about pronation. it just happens no matter what. if it werent for these forums would you even worry about pronation? i have had experience with many local pros and teachers and not one of them explain pronation when teaching a studen to serve.

 

[gzhpcu]

This shows you where the toss is, based on what type of serve you want to hit:

It would be nice to have one toss for all types of serve, but this requires lots of talent (Sampras), because you have to get your body in the right position (leaning) to hit with spin.

 

[gzhpcu]

For pronation, look at this video explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

This shows you where the toss is, based on what type of serve you want to hit:

It would be nice to have one toss for all types of serve, but this requires lots of talent (Sampras), because you have to get your body in the right position (leaning) to hit with spin.

You can have similar arcing tosses like Federer and just intercept in different places in the arc for some of your different serves. But, yes, you would likely need to adjust your body position (or lean) to accomodate different serve types.

This image looks like a washed-out (lower res) version of the graphic that was on the Operation Doubles web site. Unfortunately, the OD site is down again -- this time it looks like it might be down forever (since Kathy K, sad to say, passed on early last year).

.

 

[A555un]

stick your hand out in front of you palm up. then touch your opposite side shoulder. you just experienced pronation.

That's pronation in combination with bending your elbow. Try instead to have your palm up with your arm straight out, then turn your arm so your palm faces down. Then have your thumb pointing down would be about the max you can pronate your arm. I think pronation is very important in these activities that involve the use of your arm. That's why they teach it in baseball and football. This seems to take stress away from your elbow...or so I've read somewhere.

But, if you're to do something like a kick serve, you might not be able to pronate your arm as you're making contact with the ball because the racquet needs to move in a certain way relative to the ball. But once you're in your follow through, you should naturally pronate your arm to your ending position (assuming that's on the opposite side of your body than when you started your serve). I was taught to have my palm facing inward to my body on the opposite side after my serve...not sure if that's right though.

 

[gzhpcu]

I was taught to have my palm facing inward to my body on the opposite side after my serve...not sure if that's right though.

No, your palm faces inward prior to pronation and outward after pronating fully.
Look at the video of Sampras I posted...

 

[Nellie]

When learning the kick serve, I would suggest staying sideways and swingnig up and behind the ball, with a finish to the forehand side. You see a lot of pros now finishing way to the side on kick serves. If you pronate through the ball, this will not help your kick/spin. Instead, if you stay sideways and pronate to the brush more up the back of the ball, you will get more spin. also, you can add more height to the serve by hitting up from under the ball.

 

[Munj]

I understand what pronation is...I'm wondering if you pronate the same for flat serve vs. kick serve.

For those familiar with baseball pitching, I imagined the wrist/hand movement for pronation as the same rotation as a pitcher trying to throw a screwball. And I've seen the videos on fuzzyyellowballs. I understand the motion.

For some reason, I was doing the curveball motion (supination) to try and impart topspin.

 

[gzhpcu]

I understand what pronation is...I'm wondering if you pronate the same for flat serve vs. kick serve.

For those familiar with baseball pitching, I imagined the wrist/hand movement for pronation as the same rotation as a pitcher trying to throw a screwball. And I've seen the videos on fuzzyyellowballs. I understand the motion.

For some reason, I was doing the curveball motion (supination) to try and impart topspin.

The timing is a bit different for a kick serve, because you are hitting the ball lower and more to the left. The pronation is more pronounced as well. Check the kick serve videos on fuzzyyellowballs, very well explained...

 

[A555un]

No, your palm faces inward prior to pronation and outward after pronating fully.
Look at the video of Sampras I posted...

No, if you bring your arm to the other side of your body, it'll face inward towards your body. If your palm faces outward, your arm is staying on the same side relative to your body. If you carefully look towards the end of the video when the entire serve motion is shown and you stop it real quick as Sampras comes down to the ground after his serve, you'll see that his right hand is just about to his left side of the body and he has his palm facing to his side.

 

[gzhpcu]

No, if you bring your arm to the other side of your body, it'll face inward towards your body. If your palm faces outward, your arm is staying on the same side relative to your body. If you carefully look towards the end of the video when the entire serve motion is shown and you stop it real quick as Sampras comes down to the ground after his serve, you'll see that his right hand is just about to his left side of the body and he has his palm facing to his side.

We are probably not talking about the same thing. I am talking about the position of the palm right after impact. What you are talking about at the end of the swing is something different.

 

[larry10s]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7z7vEVqz1A i find the progression series more helpful for this