Kinetic chain experts ... isn't hip turn really leg turn?

[ByeByePoly]

I ask the following out of curiosity. I'm happy with whatever my hips are ... or are not doing (they do turn on both FH and BH ). That said, I like learning about the technical stuff... and have learned a lot from the members here.

Some context/observations:

Shoulder turn ... easy to see it's a rotation of the shoulders/torso from waste up. If I stand looking straight ahead, both feet pointing straight ahead ... I can rotate the upper body while keeping the legs and hips perfectly straight. Not that flexible ... but let's say 45 degrees. So this is a rotation of the spine, muscles, yada yada yada.

Hip turn: Do the same thing as above ... keep the legs from moving ... and there is no such thing as a "hip turn". It's not a "rotation" in the sense the shoulder/unit turn is. It's actually 1) the legs moving 2) leg/hip joint movement ... that is providing the turn of the hips.

So for you instructors out there ... do you teach hip turn from 1) stances ... athletic stances 2) leg action/drive that forces the hips to move like they need to?

Or do you just tell them to "coil their hips" ... and their legs do their required thing to make that happen?

BTW ... I notice 1) shoulder turn gets me approx 45 degress without hip turn. Hip turn (leg turn ) without shoulder turn gets me also approx 45 degrees. It takes both together to really get a big turn.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Kinetic chain experts ... isn't hip turn really leg turn?

I am no expert but I am learning. In my observations the hip turn is part of the back foot pivot and weight transfer to the opposite leg to finish. At least that is the case in most open neutral and closed stance playing I see...when there is time. In matches...not always so much.

Watch this variety of slow mo shots. I think this is pretty typical...with time, foot pivot and hip rotation to transfer weight. Without time...smack the crap out of it from where you are in all kinds of contorted ways, and no worry about rotation.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Most anything I teach about the kinetic chain and the hips' role therein is isolated to strokes with BOTH the following very specific criteria...

• Full body, full power strokes
• Using throwing motions

That pretty much means ideal forehands (semi-open OR neutral stance), or serves.

And what I teach about them is how to get the hips to go from a closed or neutral position to a more open one, AHEAD of the shoulders, which remain closed a beat longer.

This creates hip-shoulder separation, which is how you generate the tension in the trunk needed to effectively unleash the core muscles into the shot. The ways you do this on the forehand differ depending on which stance you're hitting out of (and again, during many circumstances, don't come into play at all). And there are several methods for serves, including very different ones for platform and pinpoint serving. All the details of which are way too lengthy and tedious to go into.

But as far as the initial coiling of the hips pre-separation, that mostly just gets taken care of by footwork and stance.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Most anything I teach about the kinetic chain and the hips' role therein is isolated to strokes with BOTH the following very specific criteria...

• Full body, full power strokes
• Using throwing motions

That pretty much means ideal forehands (semi-open OR neutral stance), or serves.

And what I teach about them is how to get the hips to go from a closed or neutral position to a more open one, AHEAD of the shoulders, which remain closed a beat longer.

This creates hip-shoulder separation, which is how you generate the tension in the trunk needed to effectively unleash the core muscles into the shot. The ways you do this on the forehand differ depending on which stance you're hitting out of (and again, during many circumstances, don't come into play at all). And there are several methods for serves, including very different ones for platform and pinpoint serving. All the details of which are way too lengthy and tedious to go into.

But as far as the initial coiling of the hips pre-separation, that mostly just gets taken care of by footwork and stance.

See if I understood you correctly. Footwork and stance (as you said, full stroke) set you with hip coil, and shoulder coil past your hip line. BUT you introduce even MORE separation by firing the hips a beat early. If so, that makes sense.

How much do you think initial hip coiling gains you? Let's say you took a full shoulder turn, but didn't coil hips at all. At the start of forward swing ... hips fire then shoulders. If from a semi open ... your hips still have uncoiling range.

 

[Chas Tennis]

There are three meanings of most of these motions and terms in my opinion.

1) Defined joint motions. ISR, ESR, Elbow Flexion, Wrist Flexion.......Best to get a book on Kinesiology. Manual of Structural Kinesiology. 15th ed Thompson, Floyd buy an old edition as they can be under $10 while the new editions are college texts and $80?
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Articulations.html - here you have to figure out the joint motion being demonstrated. Remember the system is based on the joint, identify the joint first. You can Google the defined terms. Find videos on them. Academically definitions developed for 100s of years if not 1000s for medicine and science, etc. .

One point of confusion is that each named joint motion can have one of two meanings:
Anatomical Terms of Movement - motion of the joint toward the named location, for example, flexion is motion in the direction toward maximum flexion.
Anatomical Terms of Location - for specifying joint position, angles, from a defined zero degrees.
The wrist joint can be in a position of maximum extension (location) and be doing flexion (movement).

2) Most Obvious Motions Seen. What is most prominent and seen moving, obvious, probably no technical definitions. "Shoulder Turn", "Hip Turn".... "Back Arch"... "knee turn" ...."knee rotation"... Pronation....racket drop.... . I now avoid using the term 'rotation' because it has defined definition for joint motions, rotation around the long axis, of, for example, the upper arm bone's long axis. These terms have a real conversational usage and it seems to me to mostly correspond to what is prominent and most seen moving. Try Googling these terms.

3) Tennis Terms. Terms that I believe originated when the motion was first noticed as important for tennis but before the biomechanics were understood. Sometimes the terms are familiar, sometimes they seem to have wisdom that is really not there, but hardly ever are they scientifically defined. They are often ambiguous or even misleading. If these terms are used then the people reading them may be unsure of what is meant. They in turn use the same terms with their individual interpretations, and the cycle goes on and on. Often the simple and important biomechanics behind these terms are not known or well understood by those using the terms, "kinetic chain". Many threads involve semantics arguments involving undefined tennis terms. Examples, lag, load, pronation, rhythm, flow, kinetic chain, open up, snap, unit turn, racket drop, relaxed, muscle memory, coil,................... There is some kind of pride in using the old terms from the old days long after the biomechanics has show much more. Pronation.... I guess all terms are dated...

If you want to make sense of the term usage start with #1.

 

[SinjinCooper]

See if I understood you correctly. Footwork and stance (as you said, full stroke) set you with hip coil, and shoulder coil past your hip line. BUT you introduce even MORE separation by firing the hips a beat early. If so, that makes sense.

How much do you think initial hip coiling gains you? Let's say you took a full shoulder turn, but didn't coil hips at all. At the start of forward swing ... hips fire then shoulders. If from a semi open ... your hips still have uncoiling range.

I don't teach, encourage, or use any active coiling of the hips beyond that which occurs naturally when you perform your unit turn and move to the ball, or take your service stance.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I am no expert but I am learning. In my observations the hip turn is part of the back foot pivot and weight transfer to the opposite leg to finish. At least that is the case in most open neutral and closed stance playing I see...when there is time. In matches...not always so much.

Watch this variety of slow mo shots. I think this is pretty typical...with time, foot pivot and hip rotation to transfer weight. Without time...smack the crap out of it from where you are in all kinds of contorted ways, and no worry about rotation.

I have watched that video a lot. It was one I studied when I was watching for the pause/stop of shoulder turn before contact.

You are right, good video to see different use of hip (and shoulder turn).

One thing I find enlightening is how hard pros can hit the ball streched laterally with no hip or shoulder turn, and no transfer of weight. "All arm" swings and they knock the cover off of it. It would be easier to explain if it was always using the opponents pace ... but sometimes it's off of avg pace. Mannarino hit a screaming 2hbh cc winner (I think against Djokovic) with both feet off the ground. He jumped up (sideways) ... not weight transfer toward the target before jumping.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don't teach, encourage, or use any active coiling of the hips beyond that which occurs naturally when you perform your unit turn and move to the ball, or take your service stance.

OK ... that matches how I have thought about hips. You probably need to tell someone what a semi open stance is, but legs and hips will do their thing naturally from there.

Do you find you have to teach actively firing the hip a beat early, or does that happen on it's own?

 

[ByeByePoly]

There are three meanings of most of these motions and terms in my opinion.

1) Defined joint motions. ISR, ESR, Elbow Flexion, Wrist Flexion.......Best to get a book on Kinesiology. Manual of Structural Kinesiology. 15th ed Thompson, Floyd buy an old edition as they can be under $10 while the new editions are college texts an $80?
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Articulations.html - here you have to figure out the joint motion fbeing demonstrated. Remember the system is based on the joint, identify the joint first, You can Google the defined terms. Find videos on them. Academically definitions developed for 100s of years if not 1000s for medicine and science, etc. .

One point of confusion is that each named joint motion can have one of two meanings:
Anatomical Terms of Movement - motion of the joint toward the named location, for example, flexion is motion in the direction toward maximum flexion.
Anatomical Terms of Location - for specifying joint position from a defined zero.
The wrist joint can be in a position of maximum extension (location) and be doing flexion (movement).

2) Most Obvious Motions Seen. What is most prominent and seen moving, obvious, probably no technical definitions. "Shoulder Turn", "Hip Turn".... "Back Arch"... "knee turn" ...."knee rotation"... Pronation....racket drop.... . I now avoid using the term 'rotation' because it has defined definition for joint motions, rotation around the long axis, of for example the upper arm. These term have a real conversational usage and it seems to me to mostly correspond to what prominently & most seen moving. Try Googling these terms.

3) Tennis Terms. Terms that I believe originated when the motion was first noticed but before the biomechanics were understood. Sometimes the term are familiar, sometimes the seem to have wisdom that is really not there, but hardly ever are they scientifically defined. They are often ambiguous or even misleading. If these terms are used then the people reading them may be unsure of what is meant. They in turn use the same terms with their individual interpretation, and the cycle goes on and on. Often the simple and important biomechanics behind these terms are not known or well understood by those using the terms, kinetic chain. Many threads involve semantics arguments involving undefined tennis terms. Examples, lag, load, pronation, rhythm, flow, kinetic chain, open up, snap, unit turn, racket drop, relaxed................... There is some kind of pride in using the old terms from the old days long after the biomechanics has show much more. Pronation.... I guess terms are always dated...

If you want to make sense of the term usage start with #1.

How's the foot?

What I was curious about was how our ttw instructors taught hip action (mainly on FH). It's not as obvious to me as the shoulder turn, because the legs are part of it. I like @SinjinCooper 's explanation ... the stance takes care of the hip prep (coiling).

 

[Limpinhitter]

I ask the following out of curiosity. I'm happy with whatever my hips are ... or are not doing (they do turn on both FH and BH ). That said, I like learning about the technical stuff... and have learned a lot from the members here.

Some context/observations:

Shoulder turn ... easy to see it's a rotation of the shoulders/torso from waste up. If I stand looking straight ahead, both feet pointing straight ahead ... I can rotate the upper body while keeping the legs and hips perfectly straight. Not that flexible ... but let's say 45 degrees. So this is a rotation of the spine, muscles, yada yada yada.

Hip turn: Do the same thing as above ... keep the legs from moving ... and there is no such thing as a "hip turn". It's not a "rotation" in the sense the shoulder/unit turn is. It's actually 1) the legs moving 2) leg/hip joint movement ... that is providing the turn of the hips.

So for you instructors out there ... do you teach hip turn from 1) stances ... athletic stances 2) leg action/drive that forces the hips to move like they need to?

Or do you just tell them to "coil their hips" ... and their legs do their required thing to make that happen?

BTW ... I notice 1) shoulder turn gets me approx 45 degress without hip turn. Hip turn (leg turn ) without shoulder turn gets me also approx 45 degrees. It takes both together to really get a big turn.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Huh?

 

[Limpinhitter]

Huh?

My response to your post. I was also thinking about this one:

 

[ChaelAZ]

One thing I find enlightening is how hard pros can hit the ball streched laterally with no hip or shoulder turn, and no transfer of weight. "All arm" swings and they knock the cover off of it.

That is a point I have made a few times with all this, what I consider, too in depth focus on minimal things. Fact is, proper racquet lag back and a forward contact point will do more for people than most things. Watch Fed when he starts his practices. No real footwork, or rotation, or much of anything, and he hits how we want to hit at our best.

There is something in that to learn from. Just like that Wawrinka vid shows...it is NOT always about all that other stuff.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Watch Fed when he starts his practices. No real footwork...

I will go to war over this. Fed ain't giving his all in casual hits, but every one I've ever seen has been an absolute footwork clinic.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I will go to war over this. Fed ain't giving his all in casual hits, but every one I've ever seen has been an absolute footwork clinic.

Not saying Fed doesn't have foot work. But watch him when he starts any practice as he works into it. We can only dream of playing as well as his lazy starts.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I will go to war over this. Fed ain't giving his all in casual hits, but every one I've ever seen has been an absolute footwork clinic.

I ban all war in my thread ... just having a chat.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I will go to war over this. Fed ain't giving his all in casual hits, but every one I've ever seen has been an absolute footwork clinic.

Did you see @Hansen came up with a better 2hbh straight back/down example ... at least for the guys:

Rios

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...op-on-2-handed-backhand.593124/#post-11381014

 

[Chas Tennis]

......................................................................................
Shoulder turn ... easy to see it's a rotation of the shoulders/torso from waste up. If I stand looking straight ahead, both feet pointing straight ahead ... I can rotate the upper body while keeping the legs and hips perfectly straight. Not that flexible ... but let's say 45 degrees. So this is a rotation of the spine, muscles, ........

Shoulder Turn is a #2 term of post #5, as you say, it is easy to see. The muscles involved are not as easy to see, probably mostly the trunk's obliques and spine muscles. One thing that is very important for the biomechanics is, what muscle is being stretched? Here 'separation' plays a part, the angle between the line of the two shoulders goes farther back than the line between the two hips. When forward motion occurs the arm and racket may lag behind and stretch muscles in the shoulder, elbow or wrist. ??

Hip turn: Do the same thing as above ... keep the legs from moving ... and there is no such thing as a "hip turn". It's not a "rotation" in the sense the shoulder/unit turn is. It's actually 1) the legs moving 2) leg/hip joint movement ... that is providing the turn of the hips.

The "hip turn" is what is seen. Actually you are seeing the pelvis turn which is a bone that the two hip joints are part of. But motion is described by joints not by the most prominent body part or bone seen moving. The feet, ankle joints and knee joints and other body bones and muscles cause the femur to move and the top of the femur is part of the hip joint. A description would involve mostly those joints and muscles (the body has 600 muscles so we are trying to identify a few of the most important ones). There are also ways that forces from the trunk might cause the hips to move - how the trunk muscles are activated or relaxed makes a difference to "hip turn".
.............................................................................................
Or do you just tell them to "coil their hips" ... and their legs do their required thing to make that happen?

"Coil the hips" or "do the orange AB1 move" both sound like good instructions - explained by the coach - because discussing a motion and doing the motion are very different things.Don't take "coil the hips" literally, or partly as descriptive of the motion, it is just a name. The biomechanics is still hidden. I tried to interpret tennis terms in the 1970s and was fooled for decades.

BTW ... I notice 1) shoulder turn gets me approx 45 degress without hip turn. Hip turn (leg turn ) without shoulder turn gets me also approx 45 degrees. It takes both together to really get a big turn.
The "voluntary range of motion" involves lengthening and stretching muscles by actively shortening their antagonist muscles. You get 45 d voluntary range of motion. An external force could be applied to stretch the muscles farther, including gravity. In tennis strokes, very often inertia is used as additional way to stretch muscles even farther. The visible part of that inertia mode of stretching is called "lag" but it involves stretching muscles - the biomechanically important part (see #3 in post #5).

[QUOTE="ByeByePoly,.................
......................................................................................

Shoulder turn ... easy to see it's a rotation of the shoulders/torso from waste up. If I stand looking straight ahead, both feet pointing straight ahead ... I can rotate the upper body while keeping the legs and hips perfectly straight. Not that flexible ... but let's say 45 degrees. So this is a rotation of the spine, muscles, ........

Shoulder Turn is a #2 term of post #5, as you say, it is easy to see. The muscles involved are not as easy to see, probably mostly the trunk's obliques and spine muscles. One thing that is very important for the biomechanics is, what muscle is being stretched? Here 'separation' plays a part, the angle between the line of the two shoulders goes farther back than the line between the two hips. When forward motion occurs the arm and racket may lag behind and stretch muscles in the shoulder, elbow or wrist. ??

Hip turn: Do the same thing as above ... keep the legs from moving ... and there is no such thing as a "hip turn". It's not a "rotation" in the sense the shoulder/unit turn is. It's actually 1) the legs moving 2) leg/hip joint movement ... that is providing the turn of the hips.

The "hip turn" is what is seen. Actually you are seeing the pelvis turn which is a bone that the two hip joints are part of. But motion is described by joints not by the most prominent body part or bone seen moving. The feet, ankle joints and knee joints and other muscles cause the femur to move and the top of the femur is part of the hip joint. A description would involve mostly those joints and muscles (the body has 600 muscles so we are trying to identify the most important ones). There are also ways that forces from the trunk might cause the hips to move - how the trunk muscles are activated or relaxed makes a difference to "hip turn".
.............................................................................................
Or do you just tell them to "coil their hips" ... and their legs do their required thing to make that happen?

"Coil the hips" or "do the orange AB1 move" sounds like a good instructions, explained by the coach, because discussing a motion and doing the motion are very different things.

BTW ... I notice 1) shoulder turn gets me approx 45 degress without hip turn. Hip turn (leg turn ) without shoulder turn gets me also approx 45 degrees. It takes both together to really get a big turn.

The range of motion involves lengthening and stretching muscles with their antagonist muscles and that may be called a voluntary range of motion. 45 d. An external force could be applied to stretch the muscles farther. In tennis strokes very often inertia is used as additional way to stretch muscles even farther. The visible part of that inertia mode of stretching is called "lag" but it involves stretching muscles - the biomechanically important part (see #3 in post #5).

.....QUOTE]

 

[ByeByePoly]

My response to your post. I was also thinking about this one:

Oh ... I think the gist here is this must have been material covered in the limpin academy. If so, I am lucky to remember yesterday, much less that tennis information dump {IT term, not derogatory }

 

[ByeByePoly]

That is a point I have made a few times with all this, what I consider, too in depth focus on minimal things. Fact is, proper racquet lag back and a forward contact point will do more for people than most things. Watch Fed when he starts his practices. No real footwork, or rotation, or much of anything, and he hits how we want to hit at our best.

There is something in that to learn from. Just like that Wawrinka vid shows...it is NOT always about all that other stuff.

"Fact is, proper racquet lag back and a forward contact point will do more for people than most things. "

Agree ... and the arm by itself is doing more than many think. But that is a future thread ... no since hijacking my own "hip" thread.

 

[Raul_SJ]

See if I understood you correctly. Footwork and stance (as you said, full stroke) set you with hip coil, and shoulder coil past your hip line. BUT you introduce even MORE separation by firing the hips a beat early. If so, that makes sense.

How much do you think initial hip coiling gains you? Let's say you took a full shoulder turn, but didn't coil hips at all. At the start of forward swing ... hips fire then shoulders. If from a semi open ... your hips still have uncoiling range.

This makes sense. After unit turn the shoulders are coiled more than hips. And then create an even greater shoulder-hip separation by leading with the hip on the swing forward...

"Let's say you took a full shoulder turn, but didn't coil hips at all"

I tried shadow swinging (unit turn with semi-open stance, with no hip coil) and it does not feel natural. So as Sinjin says, this hip coil probably happens naturally on the take back.

On the swing forward: one might have to work on leading with the hips (momentarily creating even more separation than what the take back created). I think this extra separation is the part where Lock Roll Tennis says that instructors often neglect to teach... But even without the extra separation going forward one will get a lot of power by the natural shoulder-hip separation created by unit turn.

 

[GBplayer]

Hips either face forward toward the front leading foot or rotate 90 degrees to the side . You learn this in yoga , if you do it. basic transitions between one posture and another, very essential for keeping perfect balance.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This makes sense. After unit turn the shoulders are coiled more than hips. And then create an even greater shoulder-hip separation by leading with the hip on the swing forward...

"Let's say you took a full shoulder turn, but didn't coil hips at all"

I tried shadow swinging (unit turn with semi-open stance, with no hip coil) and it does not feel natural. So as Sinjin says, this hip coil probably happens naturally on the take back.

On the swing forward: one might have to work on leading with the hips (momentarily creating even more separation than what the take back created). I think this extra separation is the part where Lock Roll Tennis says that instructors often neglect to teach... But even without the extra separation going forward one will get a lot of power by the natural shoulder-hip separation created by unit turn.

"But even without the extra separation going forward one will get a lot of power by the natural shoulder-hip separation created by unit turn."

This is what I have settled on for my game. When I look at my FH video, I have some hip turn, and shoulder turn past hip. When I advance frame by frame, it looks like my hips and shoulders fire exactly at the same time. I'm good with that for my game ... not worth messing with timing at this point. I have a hard time picking out the "hip first" in pro video ... as @SinjinCooper says, it must be on all out full shots. I have never changed my hip action (on purpose anyway), so I think I've always had the hip turn from the stance. What I haven't had always was the 'full" shoulder turn past the hips. That was a happy day a couple of summers ago with a ball machine session when I discovered that flaw. Finally some decent FH pace ...

 

[Raul_SJ]

I'm good with that for my game ... not worth messing with timing at this point. I have a hard time picking out the "hip first" in pro video ... as @SinjinCooper says, it must be on all out full shots. I have never changed my hip action (on purpose anyway), so I think I've always had the hip turn from the stance.

Understood, but I am still curious on that extra separation on the swing forward, as some players might want to experiment with it. Have you tried creating it based on the Lock Roll video rather than pro video analysis? Not sure if Lock Roll is talking about hips and shoulders swinging forward in synch after separation angle created by unit turn or creating a greater separation angle by slightly leading with the hip on the forward swing.

I think it is the latter... Will have to watch again.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Understood, but I am still curious on that extra separation on the swing forward, as some players might want to experiment with it. Have you tried creating it based on the Lock Roll video rather than pro video analysis? Not sure if Lock Roll is talking about hips and shoulders swinging forward in synch after separation angle created by unit turn or creating a greater separation angle by slightly leading with the hip on the forward swing.

I think it is the latter... Will have to watch again.

Yes, have watched the Lock and Roll video several times. He is definitely talking about leading with the hips before the shoulders on the forward swing. He doesn't use the words "increase separation or stretch", but he is talking about the same thing @SinjinCooper is. L&R doesn't talk about the stance or prep in that video, but like Sinjin said, it's automatic really based on stance. I have a fundamental disagreement with the L&R concept that the arm's are slung like he shows in that video... but not relevant to this "hip" discussion.

 

[KineticChain]

what u want

 

[LeeD]

By loading and then unloading, you can turn your hips at least 45 degrees without moving your feet...but you do have to pivot on the balls of your feet.

 

[ByeByePoly]

what u want

lol ... it's like on True Blood where Sookie could call her maker Bill anytime

 

[SinjinCooper]

OMG, Sookie was never EVEN a vampire. That was JESSIC...never mind. Totally straight over here.

 

[ByeByePoly]

OMG, Sookie was never EVEN a vampire. That was JESSIC...never mind. Totally straight over here.

hahaha ... oh yeah, Sookie was a fairy. But she did get "sucked" ... by Bill.