Klippermate accuracy

gopokes

Rookie
Has anyone ever checked the accuracy of a klippermate vs an upright model like a prince neos? Thanks -
GP
 

sstchur

Hall of Fame
Has anyone ever checked the accuracy of a klippermate vs an upright model like a prince neos? Thanks -
GP
I haven't, but it's a drop-weight, so it should be just as accurate, if not more so, so long as the stringer is using good technique.
 

max

Legend
I would think any dropweight would be more accurate than other types of machines. Unless somehow the scale on the bar was put on there wrong.
 

gopokes

Rookie
Thanks for the info - I wonder if the tension gauges are accurate enough to be worthwhile. It would be fun to check a racket strung on a Klippermate vs a higher-end stringer to measure any appreciable difference. It would also be nice to use as a frame of reference for an individual stringer. So if 55lbs on your stringer actually meant 52 lbs, one could simply compensate up a few lbs. i think in the real world, there is more terminal tension difference between types of string after break-in than the machines that put them in.
Anyway, thanks for the info -
GP
 

TenniseaWilliams

Professional
Apparently, very few people test their Klippermates with a tension meter. Manufacturing differences on the bar/weight, sticker placement, or even manf calibration with an old spring scale could explain why these machines never test well.

Every Klipper I have ever tested (5 now) with a digital scale has been 2-6 lbs light. The gauges seem to be quite accurate when measuring most other drop weights.
 

SteveI

Legend
Apparently, very few people test their Klippermates with a tension meter. Manufacturing differences on the bar/weight, sticker placement, or even manf calibration with an old spring scale could explain why these machines never test well.

Every Klipper I have ever tested (5 now) with a digital scale has been 2-6 lbs light. The gauges seem to be quite accurate when measuring most other drop weights.
Hey Tenn,

I am sure QC is the problem on the Klippermate. I have owned two dropweights (Klippermate) and an Alpha. I did no tests on either to compare, but I felt I was getting a firmer stringbed and more consistant results with the Alpha. My Alpha clamps are better than the Klippermates and the gripper is much better on the Alpha. Not to mention the issue of the frames "sitting down" on the Klippermate (that is.. the head getting more round and the overall frame length being reduced) with certain frames.

What other dropweights did you test? This is very interesting.

Regards,
Steve
 

SW Stringer

Semi-Pro
Has anyone ever checked the accuracy of a klippermate vs an upright model like a prince neos? Thanks -
GP
The Klippermate (IMO) was designed to produce a String Bed Stiffness that mimicked the prevalent machine at the time. That machine was the Ektelon whose main (patented by Held the inventor) feature was the crank tension head that used a spring under tension as it's reference. It was a major improvement over the Serrano since it didn't need actual weights (reducing the size and weight of the machine) to pull tension, and due to it's innovative tension head provided an increase in productivity due to it's speed.

Since the Klippermate is a constant pull machine and the Ektelon is a lock-out the designers of the Klipper had to modify the slope of the load line so that the reference tension is a few percent light across the board which means of course that the difference between actual and reference becomes greater at higher tensions.

This fact I stumbled upon when I switched to a lock-out machine from the Klipper. Worried about the conversion factor for maintaining a constant SBS for my customer base I spent a great deal of time calibrating both machiines and making comparisions of SBS. In the end I found I could keep the same reference tension for the lock-out machine as I'd used for the Klipper and get nearly identical SBS figures. My conclusion was that the Klipper engineers had already done the conversion for me which meant that my database of nearly a thousand entries was good as gold.

Once you've got your calibration line on the Klipper you can also adjust the reference tension to actual pounds if you're trying to duplicate SBS done on other CP machines.
 

jim e

Legend
that the reference tension is a few percent light across the board which means of course that the difference between actual and reference becomes greater at higher tensions.
My conclusion was that the Klipper engineers had already done the conversion for me which meant that my database of nearly a thousand entries was good as gold.
Maybe your conculsions are correct, but,
Any chance that:
" the the reference tension is a few percent light across the board"
as you put it for the Klipper, maybe the loss of tension a few percent light as you put it is using floating clamps (more drawback), over the fixed clamps of the crank,so the loss of the lockout machine sort of resembles the loss of floating clamps, and therefore your SBS were comparable, and the Klipper engineers did nothing?
 
Last edited:

TenniseaWilliams

Professional
Hey Tenn,

I am sure QC is the problem on the Klippermate. I have owned two dropweights (Klippermate) and an Alpha. I did no tests on either to compare, but I felt I was getting a firmer stringbed and more consistant results with the Alpha. My Alpha clamps are better than the Klippermates and the gripper is much better on the Alpha. Not to mention the issue of the frames "sitting down" on the Klippermate (that is.. the head getting more round and the overall frame length being reduced) with certain frames.

What other dropweights did you test? This is very interesting.

Regards,
Steve
I have also tested two different LF (the old SW designs) dropweights. I still have an eco version with flying clamps that I use on suspect gut, and to check the calibration of the digital scale.

It would be interesting to test one of the ratcheting tension heads to see how much of a tension discontinuity there is near the ratchet point, and to see the general direction (loosens near the ratchet, then tightens back up, or does it slightly overtension, and then drop back?)

Maybe your conculsions are correct, but,
Any chance that:
" the the reference tension is a few percent light across the board"
as you put it for the Klipper, maybe the loss of tension a few percent light as you put it is using floating clamps (more drawback), over the fixed clamps of the crank,so the loss of the lockout machine sort of resembles the loss of floating clamps, and therefore your SBS were comparable, and the Klipper engineers did nothing?
I am certainly glad it worked out well for SW, although after exchanging emails with the vendor I wouldn't agree that it was intentional. I think it speaks flatteringly to SW's technique that he was able to get comparable results from the Klippermate.

With that said, let me add that I think the Klippermate a fantastic value, nearly indestructible, simple to operate/clean/maintain/troubleshoot, and has great vendor support/warranty in the U.S. Not a bad way to start a stringing education.
 

SW Stringer

Semi-Pro
Maybe your conculsions are correct, but,
Any chance that:
" the the reference tension is a few percent light across the board"
as you put it for the Klipper, maybe the loss of tension a few percent light as you put it is using floating clamps (more drawback), over the fixed clamps of the crank,so the loss of the lockout machine sort of resembles the loss of floating clamps, and therefore your SBS were comparable, and the Klipper engineers did nothing?
I meticulously and scientifically calibrated the tensioning head and came out with this equation: x = 0.91546 * y + 0.9667 where x is the actual tension and y is the bar setting. From the equation x = y at approximately 11.44 pounds which is lower than the first bar setting. So at all usable settings the actual tension is lower than the bar setting. I don't think it was pure accident but was indeed "intelligent design" by the Klipper engineers.
 

Sunuy

New User
I meticulously and scientifically calibrated the tensioning head and came out with this equation: x = 0.91546 * y + 0.9667 where x is the actual tension and y is the bar setting. From the equation x = y at approximately 11.44 pounds which is lower than the first bar setting. So at all usable settings the actual tension is lower than the bar setting. I don't think it was pure accident but was indeed "intelligent design" by the Klipper engineers.
This is very interesting! I have a Klippermate myself and I have always wondered about (not necessarily doubted) its accuracy. Would you mind publishing your findings here or in a short article, complete with your methodology, equipment, data, tables and graphs? I am sure there are many klippermate stringer owners who would like to know. Or please kindly share the raw data with me. In the mean time, I have regenerated the supposed actual tensions (see pic below) using your regression equation to see what they are and what I can learn. Please correct me if your data looks significantly different from this. When you share your work, I will then try to reproduce your results by measuring the tensions myself. Thanks.
 
Last edited:

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
back when I first started, I knew that the dropweight had a lot of slack compared to a cranck, and even more slack compared to a electronic machine, due to the "flying clamps"!!
I never got around to checking "too much", the tension bar accuracy
I did however advice people to change "go up/down", in tension based on their feedback of how it played after I strung their racquet
I explained the "slack", issues with my machine vs other machines and worked with them on the tension
1 or 2 people would give me feed back on how their racquet played after having their racquets strung on a electronic machine, and usually it was very close, but not crazy different
these were clients of mine who would have their racquet restrung when on vacation away from access to me
I kept those clients through the years; they new the differences but also knew I would work with them modifying the tension
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
I've posted this multiple times, but one more won't hurt I guess. I owned a Gamma drop weight, moved to a Neos 1000, added a Wise, then a Neos 1500 and finally I have landed on a Babolat Mighty Sensor. The Gamma had flying clamps, the plastic ones they make. When I moved from the Gamma to the Prince Neos I had to drop tension about 8 pounds on the Neos to replicate the feel of the string bed produced by the Gamma. IME, the Neos with the lock out tensioner and fixed clamps produced a much tighter string bed. Adding the Wise, I had to move tension down another 3 - 5 pounds to get the same feel. Moving from the Wise/1500 to the Mighty Sensor, I didn't have to change tension at all.

In my opinion, the tension mechanism isn't the biggest part of accuracy. The biggest influence on accuracy is the clamps and the stringer. Flying clamps are crap IMO. Don't get me wrong, if folks are happy with their drop weights, great. For me, the results weren't as good as string jobs from shops with Neos machines. So I upgraded. You can compensate, as I did, by upping your tension. And that is the real message here. No matter what kind of machine you have, there is one golden rule: find your number (in pounds or kilograms) and stick with it. When I used a drop weight, my number was 65. With the Mighty Sensor, my numbers are 54/50.
 

MAX PLY

Hall of Fame
^^^Rabbit is spot on! Tension "accuracy" is a bit of a unicorn--all machines use a "reference tension" with respect to its pulling mechanism--but the actual tension in place within the racquet frame is affected by a number of factors as Rabbit notes--the type of machine (LO, DW, electric CP, etc.), the quality and condition of the tension head and clamps, the style of the stringing technician, how quickly a LO is pulled, how long you let a CP pull before clamping, on and on. I have strung on over a dozen different machines throughout the years and I definitely feel that some machines pull tighter or looser than others at the same reference tension (although I have found a great deal of consistency at the very top end of machines--Babolat, Wilson, Yonex, etc. But in the case of the typical hobby stringer, there's going to be variation--my suggestion is that while you should keep your machine calibrated, just find your preferred reference tension on that machine (for instance, I know I string my sticks a little looser (about 3 pounds) when I am using my friend's Baiardo versus my home stringing machine (a pristine Ektelon H)) and string your racquets on that machine accordingly. If you begin to seriously string for others for profit, you will likely have to get a more sophisticated machine and variability will be less of an issue. The goal is consistency--how you get there is really up to you.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
all machines use a "reference tension" with respect to its pulling mechanism
I don’t think that’s true on a KM machine. The way you set the reference tension is you place the weight at a certain distance out from the pivot. To apply tension you place the string in the gripper and lower the bar, and IF the bar is level the set tension is applied to the string. If the bar isn’t level (on a KM) you raise the bar, adjust the string in the gripper and lower the bar again, and continue that pattern until the bar is level. Then you can release the clamp from the previously tensioned string and chances are the bar will drop again. Now without release the string from the gripper and loosing all tension, how do you readjust the bar to get it level and apply reference tension? With a DW that has a ratchet you can adjust tension without loosing tension but I’m not sure how it is done on a KM.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
@MAX PLY as usual, I agree 100% with your post and as usual, @Irvin has gone off in the semantic weed bed. All machines have a reference tension regardless of the tension mechanism. Saying a machine doesn't have a reference tension is saying you cannot set a tension. Ergo, there'd be no point in stringing. Which is tantamount to agreeing with Jean Paul Sartre that nothing is relevant or matters. And if we go there, aren't we really saying that all the nit picking in the world over how you string a racket is irrelevant? And if that's true, aren't 99.999999% of @Irvin's posts contradictory in theme?

Maybe he's on to something....
 

MAX PLY

Hall of Fame
^^^Yeah, I think it's still a "reference tension" on the KM--I think it's just a matter how you get there (i.e., if it's not level, I guess you're not there). Liked the Sartre reference--I am similarly reminded of The Firesign Theater comedy album (really dating myself here) entitled: "How Can You Be In Two Places At Once When You're Not Anywhere At All"
 

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
agree above ^^
biggest "drawback" for dropweights is the "flying clamps", (pun intended),
the better the clamps, the better the machine..
everything else is not bad at all, mounting, and tension adjustment
no comperason from flying clamps to base clamps!!
 

SpinControl

New User
The Klippermate's pull tension is pretty good.
Its weaknesses are:
1. string gripper (I've had string slip as I drop the weight).
2. string clamps (fly clamps as mentioned before are crap; they twist; dead (or no) tension for the string feeding into the grommet and out the next hole down/over leading to readjusting the drop weight as you've undone the fly clamp which leads to other tension errors potentially).

It's a great beginner stringing machine for the price, and portable; I still have mine (the one my mommy bought me) since I was 16yo (30+ years ago).
It's still the only machine I use as I find it unnecessary to buy a new one given that I only string for myself and do not play as much or competitively.

If you get one, I recommend getting a string tension meter dial. It's not the most accurate either, but it will give you an idea of where you're at.
Then, it's just experience and trial and error.

Also, the internet is awesome it provides the appropriate knowledge to string. If stringing natural gut, you'd better find out if the Klippermate is doable. I'm not sure it is.
 

norcal

Hall of Fame
All machines have a reference tension regardless of the tension mechanism. Saying a machine doesn't have a reference tension is saying you cannot set a tension.
Yes, I use racket tune to check my rackets off the stringer (klipper) and despite the variance with creep and levelness of tension arm my string jobs are very consistent (because creep and arm position are consistent in my stringing 'style'). Thus I have a reference tension to work with.
 

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
Yes, I use racket tune to check my rackets off the stringer (klipper) and despite the variance with creep and levelness of tension arm my string jobs are very consistent (because creep and arm position are consistent in my stringing 'style'). Thus I have a reference tension to work with.
agree
the feedback from people you string for is also important
they will let you know if you need to go up/down on their tension until they find the number they like
but it also makes them feel that they are getting custom service from you, which equals more repeated business for you
 
Top