Knees Over Toes Guy?
- Thread starter Space_D
- Start date
As always, a disclaimer: I am not a doctor or physical therapist so this is just my opinion. I think his methodology and theories makes logical sense. However, like he says himself, they are mostly hypothesis that are sort of the next logical progression developed from current proven principles, but there have been very little study and test on his ideas, therefore, his evidences are currently mostly anecdotal (he is very transparent about this). I have been integrating his advices into my training, but I don't have any chronic knee pain to magically get relieved so I can't confirm or disprove some people's claim of instant improvement, and it also haven't been long enough for me to draw any useful conclusions from my progress.
I really appreciate the fact that he doesn't try to hide key information to make people pay for his programs. If you are relatively experienced and knowledgeable in fitness, you can probably piece together his entire paid program from his free videos.
My biggest scepticism comes from the fact that he seems to get almost 100% praise and no criticism even in the toxic culture of YouTube fitness (I mean just look at how many negative comments are under even the largest tennis youtube channels' videos). The fitness industry, especially on social media, is usually extremely tribal and would often relentlessly attack anyone who advocates for anything other than the regular "bro science" (you know, no pain no gain, anabolic window...that sort of stuff). I just find it slightly odd that no one seem to be making videos titled "KOT guy is a fraud that will kill your gains" when NOT squatting knees over toes is like rule 2 in the bro science book, and attacking his rapidly growing channel would've been quick and easy exposure. His youtube videos are also quite repetitive, and I would've expected some dedicated trolls complaining about how he is just milking the same content.
All that being said, one of his biggest principles is to train at the highest pain-free intensity that suits the individual, and to never train through pain. If you follow that advice, I see no downside in trying his system out for yourself. Worst case is you stay the same
I really appreciate the fact that he doesn't try to hide key information to make people pay for his programs. If you are relatively experienced and knowledgeable in fitness, you can probably piece together his entire paid program from his free videos.
My biggest scepticism comes from the fact that he seems to get almost 100% praise and no criticism even in the toxic culture of YouTube fitness (I mean just look at how many negative comments are under even the largest tennis youtube channels' videos). The fitness industry, especially on social media, is usually extremely tribal and would often relentlessly attack anyone who advocates for anything other than the regular "bro science" (you know, no pain no gain, anabolic window...that sort of stuff). I just find it slightly odd that no one seem to be making videos titled "KOT guy is a fraud that will kill your gains" when NOT squatting knees over toes is like rule 2 in the bro science book, and attacking his rapidly growing channel would've been quick and easy exposure. His youtube videos are also quite repetitive, and I would've expected some dedicated trolls complaining about how he is just milking the same content.
All that being said, one of his biggest principles is to train at the highest pain-free intensity that suits the individual, and to never train through pain. If you follow that advice, I see no downside in trying his system out for yourself. Worst case is you stay the same
cha cha
Hall of Fame
I do not know this particular clickbait nonsense but I was able to squat 400+ back in my day and I had been squatting with religiously strict form (starting with hips back, never crossing the toes) until the corona hit. I have now been left stranded at home with no reasonable weights for months and testing various ways of making bodyweight exercises challenging including the sissy variations.
My knees have been hurting from overuse pretty much for 15 years now, and the squatting form has had very little impact on this issue. Knees over toes or not, your knees will only be as strong as the balance between the quads and the hams and only hurting as fairly as you treat them. No amount of squatting can heal my hurting knees if I play volleyball 3 times a week and tennis just as much.
So my advice is simple. Exercise with good form, consistency and balance in terms of muscles involved. Do not overthink it. The type of exercise does not make nearly as much difference as these internet physios try to make us believe.
My knees have been hurting from overuse pretty much for 15 years now, and the squatting form has had very little impact on this issue. Knees over toes or not, your knees will only be as strong as the balance between the quads and the hams and only hurting as fairly as you treat them. No amount of squatting can heal my hurting knees if I play volleyball 3 times a week and tennis just as much.
So my advice is simple. Exercise with good form, consistency and balance in terms of muscles involved. Do not overthink it. The type of exercise does not make nearly as much difference as these internet physios try to make us believe.
Yeah pretty much agree with everything you say. The lack of any negative feedback or constructive criticism about it definitely has me skeptical. I don't have any major knee issues but was thinking I may integrate some of his stuff into some stretching routines.
puppybutts
Hall of Fame
i don't like how difficult it is to find out where he gets his knowledge and credentials from. his whole bio is meaningless anecdotes and statements that he says are documented (like his under 20-inch vertical to over 40-inch vertical claim that supposedly no one else has ever achieved...he says it's documented but where is the documentation? if it exists, he sure makes it hard to find). his site has a few research article links that are findable and accessible by the general public, but otherwise everything he says has no proof behind it. his whole company team is him, a business COO, a communications guy, a customer service woman, an app developer...i.e. all MARKETING people, not a single doctor, physical therapist, trainer, or anyone with formal training. oh and a few "basketball specialists", whatever the hell that is. he reminds of all the fitness youtubers who never went to school for real credentials, and instead pull one liners from free research articles online to appear credentialed, even if they use the line out of context, don't even read the entire paper, or ignore the paper's disclaimers and limitations, and otherwise have no understanding of how research works. his whole website feels like every young fake-it-till-you-make-it startup.
all that being said, you'll probably benefit from the program, just as you would by buddying up with someone more knowledgeable than you and dedicating yourself to training for several weeks and months. i'm sure he's more knowledgeable than the average person. personally i just don't feel good about paying more than what a physical gym membership costs...for an online course from a guy who makes it real difficult to find out where he gets his knowledge from. but value is subjective. some people never pay for any program or class saying they can manage on their own for free, and then never do anything.
all that being said, you'll probably benefit from the program, just as you would by buddying up with someone more knowledgeable than you and dedicating yourself to training for several weeks and months. i'm sure he's more knowledgeable than the average person. personally i just don't feel good about paying more than what a physical gym membership costs...for an online course from a guy who makes it real difficult to find out where he gets his knowledge from. but value is subjective. some people never pay for any program or class saying they can manage on their own for free, and then never do anything.
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I have incorporated some of the exercises into my workouts specifically the split squat and tibialis raises.
tennisandtennis
Semi-Pro
I used to have knee bursitis flare-ups until I started squatting exclusively with a safety squat bar. I use the EliteFTS one and go ass-to-grass, max of 245 lbs. at BW 160. I also use a hex bar for deadlifts exclusively and do romanian deadlifts with a straight bar with low loads to help develop the hamstrings, since both the SSB and hex bar are more quad-dominant than standard squats or deadlifts. That said, I find them more balanced.
My quad flexibility is through the roof after 3 years of SSB use. I can pull each heel into my glutes (quad mobility test), and also can get down into a full catcher's squat (ass on my heels) in the grocery store without a warmup, and I am NOT naturally flexible or mobile in most ways. YMMV, but as much as squats and deadlifts can be helpful for avoiding lower-body joint pain, I think the new developments in barbell tech are significant.
My quad flexibility is through the roof after 3 years of SSB use. I can pull each heel into my glutes (quad mobility test), and also can get down into a full catcher's squat (ass on my heels) in the grocery store without a warmup, and I am NOT naturally flexible or mobile in most ways. YMMV, but as much as squats and deadlifts can be helpful for avoiding lower-body joint pain, I think the new developments in barbell tech are significant.
I just googled Knees over toes guy tennis to see if any other tennis players are following his workouts. I ended up here!
I am a couple of weeks into his knee ability zero plan. I've been teaching fitness classes (mainly TRX and Spin) for 20 years. I have had 3 medial menisus surgeries and my knee went pop back in April. I have not felt good enough to go back yet to tennis.
Starting to feel less pain walking and stair climbing. I love how the backwards walking makes the knee feel, tibialis raises and all the other stuff is having a good effect.
I am not totally convinced I will make it back, but the progress makes me feel there is a chance.
I will update going forward.
I am a couple of weeks into his knee ability zero plan. I've been teaching fitness classes (mainly TRX and Spin) for 20 years. I have had 3 medial menisus surgeries and my knee went pop back in April. I have not felt good enough to go back yet to tennis.
Starting to feel less pain walking and stair climbing. I love how the backwards walking makes the knee feel, tibialis raises and all the other stuff is having a good effect.
I am not totally convinced I will make it back, but the progress makes me feel there is a chance.
I will update going forward.
Glad to hear you are getting some good early results with these exercises.
antony
Hall of Fame
i like to use deadlift hexbars too. i think everyone should
listened to KOT's guy on Joe Rogan
watched all KOT youtube videos
bought his 1st book $21 on Amazon
made a sled and bought a Calves slant board
10 days in- doing most of the exercises and do notice a significant difference in my calves, hamstrings, hip flexors, quads, tibialis..stronger and more flexible already..I was already a consistent exerciser but i'm still taking it slow and steady..I'm really excited to see where this goes
watched all KOT youtube videos
bought his 1st book $21 on Amazon
made a sled and bought a Calves slant board
10 days in- doing most of the exercises and do notice a significant difference in my calves, hamstrings, hip flexors, quads, tibialis..stronger and more flexible already..I was already a consistent exerciser but i'm still taking it slow and steady..I'm really excited to see where this goes
I think he gets out of the troll train by riding the line of 'almost more a physical trainer' while still being in the fitness space. Other than that agreed with pretty much all you've said.
I've mixed in some of the basic stuff like backward walking and done more joint based warmup (synovial fluid based stuff I had seen elsewhere but he also mentions) and seen good results. But I'm not looking to mix in a ton of his stuff and of my knees, ankles, and hips the knees are the most stable lol.
tennisandtennis
Semi-Pro
get back to us in 10 months
tennisandtennis
Semi-Pro
There’s no reason to do high intensity straight-bar deadlifts anymore unless you’ve got the toxic masculinity bug and have to do things “the hard way” to feel good about yourself. We have better technology. I’ve deadlifted heavy once a week for years without any pain. Most straight-bar devotees I know are hobbled from injury.
Ok, but hear me out, it's not toxic masculinity... I'm just too lazy to go get a different bar after squat and oh press...
I am 54 years old and still do heavy straight bar deadlifts. I also occasionally do hex bar deadlifts to add variety to my workout. The hex bar deadlift does not hit the hamstring muscles like the straight bar. They are two different exercises. Injuries occur because of poor technique and loading too much weight.
tennisandtennis
Semi-Pro
stiff legged and Romanian hex deadlifts, glute ham raises, Nordics and good mornings will develop the hamstrings just fine without the lever action of the SBDL. Being able to overload the bar without increased injury risk is very much the point of the hex bar.
HeavyRacket97
New User
Hey Space_D,
I have tried his exercises, but haven't bought his program. I couldn't play tennis or any sports for a few years after college because of reoccurring knee pain(very sharp pain around the back of my patella tendon while running and doing lunges). I've had excellent results doing his lower body exercises(ATG split squats, backwards running/walking, slantboard stuff, toe raises, monkeyfeet, ....etc). I also do exercises to strengthen my gluteus medius, which I feel isn't addressed in his set of exercises(prevent knees from bending inwards). Anyways, after 2 to 3 months of his exercises I've been back on the courts playing tennis, basketball, baseball with little to no knee pain.
Obviously kneesovertoesguy is not a physician or PT, but I have had profound results from his set of exercises, which can all be found on his youtube channel. I guess if your having knee problems its worth a shot. Doesn't work for everyone, but it does work for some.
I have tried his exercises, but haven't bought his program. I couldn't play tennis or any sports for a few years after college because of reoccurring knee pain(very sharp pain around the back of my patella tendon while running and doing lunges). I've had excellent results doing his lower body exercises(ATG split squats, backwards running/walking, slantboard stuff, toe raises, monkeyfeet, ....etc). I also do exercises to strengthen my gluteus medius, which I feel isn't addressed in his set of exercises(prevent knees from bending inwards). Anyways, after 2 to 3 months of his exercises I've been back on the courts playing tennis, basketball, baseball with little to no knee pain.
Obviously kneesovertoesguy is not a physician or PT, but I have had profound results from his set of exercises, which can all be found on his youtube channel. I guess if your having knee problems its worth a shot. Doesn't work for everyone, but it does work for some.
Yogeshvara
Rookie
I like the Knee Ability Zero workout I am doing now on the Knees Over Toes program. Compared to other regimens I've tried for my bad knee this seems the most comprehensive. Plus having a coach look at my form for $50.00 per month seems very reasonable.
There is a tennis specific routine he suggests. I wonder if anyone out here uses it?
There is a tennis specific routine he suggests. I wonder if anyone out here uses it?
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I started doing a few of the KOT exercises.
As a warmup, I turn on the electronic treadmill in my gym and set the incline to maximum and then I pause it and turn it off so it stays with the incline. Then I push/walk forewards on it for awhile and then switch to walking backhands. With the machine off, there is a bit of resistance, so when walking foreward, I have to push in front with my arms locked. When going backhands, I just lean back at my waist against the machine.
Also, the toe raise exercise (kind of like a reverse calf raise), slant board exercise, and started doing deeper lunges.
As a warmup, I turn on the electronic treadmill in my gym and set the incline to maximum and then I pause it and turn it off so it stays with the incline. Then I push/walk forewards on it for awhile and then switch to walking backhands. With the machine off, there is a bit of resistance, so when walking foreward, I have to push in front with my arms locked. When going backhands, I just lean back at my waist against the machine.
Also, the toe raise exercise (kind of like a reverse calf raise), slant board exercise, and started doing deeper lunges.
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Yogeshvara
Rookie
The slant board exercise with dumbbells?
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Yes. I'm slowing working up from bodyweight to holding a dumbell. Just using one 30 lbs dumbell for now.
For the walking lunges, I hold one 55 lbs dumbell in each hand and just do one set of 10-12 reps.
WildVolley
Legend
I was doing ATG split squats and the Poliquin(?) step downs for knee pain I got from jumping. I couldn't fully bend my knee without a high level of pain, and prior to that I was able to sit on my heels without pain. I don't know how effective it was, but after about 6 months, I am again able to fully flex my knee without pain.
If you look online, there are videos on reversing out shoulder pain, involving progressions of rotator cuff movements. So I assume that the tennis program would involve more shoulder and perhaps even elbow work.
If you look online, there are videos on reversing out shoulder pain, involving progressions of rotator cuff movements. So I assume that the tennis program would involve more shoulder and perhaps even elbow work.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
It seems like the KOT guy programs and exercises help us progressively increase our range of motion thru dynamic motions.
If this increases range of motion and flexibility of the muscles, it makes sense that it would bring some relief to knes and other joints.
WildVolley
Legend
The good thing about the KOT guy is that he is serious about working people into exercise they can perform and then progressively building strength and range of motion over time. That's a helpful and hopeful message for people who are in pain or have limited mobility in a joint. A lot of (but not all) injuries can be resolved over time through progressive exercise with proper nutrition and rest.
Most studies show that it is best to keep exercising an injured area with lower intensity and trying to keep pain to a moderate level. When my knee was injured, I could still do limited range of motion exercises without serious pain, so I just started with that and backed off of positions that caused the pain level to go too high.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
One of my goals this year is to put more effort into increasing my range of motion/mobility and also increase explosiveness.
I've been noticing many older guys who look very lean and fit with a good amount of muscle, but walk and move very stifly, and don't look like they could make any kind of dynamic movement -- let alone sprint. I want to be agile, strong, and fast.
Lukhas
Legend
I have some genetically encouraged knee issues that I didn't know about until I became a desk jockey and ended up stacking most, if not all of my tennis practice on the week-ends instead of having it spread out throughout the week. I didn't break anything, but the pain was so bad I got caught walking with a limp for a while. While the exercise selection isn't exactly what I needed for my case (although they're really good overall), what I really liked about Ben Patrick's approach are a few things.
It also opened my eyes to actually how little physical conditioning most club players I've met do, even when they don't have an injury. The money spent on braces, softer rackets and strings, and new shoes; if only a fraction of that was spent on a few resistance bands to take care of yourself a bit more. Not that it isn't important (I've had bad shoes causing inflammation), but it feels disproportionate; like buying a solution to a problem that could at least partially if not to some good extend alleviated with some resistance/strength training on a big enough range of motion.
- Playing sports doesn't have to hurt. Yes, each sport does tend to predispose you to some issues, but it doesn't mean that there's nothing you can do about it.
- Working the opposite of your overused muscles. It's simple but it made so much sense: runners get more hamstring injuries than quad injuries; might as well beef up the weakness. If you're really busy, you can actually min-max injury prevention by focusing on your weaknesses and working the opposite muscle group to the ones yo use the most.
- Strength and flexibility aren't contradictory, and combining both helps improving and maintaining range of motion. He uses his wife is an example: she did figure skating and was often injured despite being flexible. After picking up strength training she can skate again.
- Progressive overloads and regressions. You don't have to work through pain, and (assuming nothing completely broken) you can make progress.
It also opened my eyes to actually how little physical conditioning most club players I've met do, even when they don't have an injury. The money spent on braces, softer rackets and strings, and new shoes; if only a fraction of that was spent on a few resistance bands to take care of yourself a bit more. Not that it isn't important (I've had bad shoes causing inflammation), but it feels disproportionate; like buying a solution to a problem that could at least partially if not to some good extend alleviated with some resistance/strength training on a big enough range of motion.
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Yogeshvara
Rookie
I am one of those gimpy older guys. In the last 4 months I have tried 3 mobility trainings and I have done something from them everyday. My knee has improved and my overall mobility gotten much better. Squatting at net is no longer too hard to do and my whip on my first serve is blowing people away. The three programs are Trust Based Mobility Training with Eddie Ron, MovesMethod with Vanja Moves and ATG with Ben Patrick. They each have helped me in their own way.
