Discussion in 'Classic Racquet Talk' started by plasma, Feb 18, 2009.
Plasma, this is such a great racquet
As I mentioned before, only have a couple the Lendl and the Twin, is there a difference with the others?
I love hitting the GTX when I get a chance. What would you say is the difference between the GTX and the White Stars?
Oh and if anyone has any of these, really like to buy some, great prices paid etc
i have another kind of kneissl white star racquets
when i use it to play against people who use the modern racquets, i don't feel i am at a disadvantage at all.
kneissls play like made in Belgium Pro Ones drenched in Merlot (like a fine tuned stratavarius making love to a Les Paul), gtx's play stiff like a prostaff. Total opposite ends of the Spectrum. Only the mold is similar. unless its the red star pro(boron), which is stiff and somewhat similar to the gtx:
I am also after many more kneissls, nothing gives me as much joy to hit with....
the first generation were all white, after that came the all white with the blue and green dovetail, followed by the classic red and blue dovetail. I would love to find the super pro vario or the bluestar pro....the pro-t has lots of flex like the kneissl, but feels rubbery and modern, in contrast to the sweet natural organic powerful yet humble yogic kneissl pro masters.
Those are nice mono shafts. And the damper too.
isn't Mr. Bill hangin a bit lo there??? thought he was supposed to be at the intersection of cross and main, not on the main tracks....I believe white star mid (monoshaft) was 98???ish, from what I can tell all white kneissls before the aero have similar composition and superb feel and performance...
i use the dampener just for decoration, so i don't know exactly where it should be
my racquets are the white star "BIG" and the "BIG" are 98 sq-in. they didn't specify this on the frame but I measured it by lining it up against the prince precision mono and they had about the same headsize. I have seen the "MID" version for sale at the auction site and the headsize for the "MID" has got to be smaller.
Similar architecture (grip on frame shaft), but different composition and vastly different feel and performance across the White Star model range.
I used the White Star Pro Masters as a ranked junior in Europe from 1984-1986, then the Masters 10 (same racket beneath the paint) through early 1988. During this span of time, I also had their model line available to me to see what would make me happiest.
The 10% larger than standard Pro Masters/Masters 10 was a G/F/K composite with hollow core; really there was nothing quite like it except for the same-mold, different comp Adidas Lendl GTX Pro (which was a heavier G/F comp) and the later Lendl GTX Pro-T (which was the same comp as the GTX Pro, just with refreshed graphics for the '85 season). The Adidas frames were awful for S/V play, but were good serve cannons and excellent for groundstrokes, if one had enough time to set up properly. By comparison, the Kneissl WSPM/M10 was lighter and had a more lively feel - less stiff than the Adidas - and with its dense string pattern was pinpoint-accurate and could be volleyed with, if the player wasn't lazy or used bad technique.
The Adi Lendl GTX Pro was a ubiquitous frame in Germany in the mid-80's. Lots of ranked juniors used them, including Claudia Kohde-Kilsch and Boris Becker. I tried them for part of a season, but I wasn't big or strong enough to operate the L3 without getting elbow problems, so I switched back to the Kneissl and was quite comfortable and did OK.
The White Star Twin was a G/F composite, 20% larger than standard size. It was basically Kneissl's attempt to make a Rossignol F200, down to the head size, two-fisted grip, and flex. Apart from the Blue Star aluminum frames, if had to be Kneissl's flexiest frame of that era. I kept one for a while, played tournaments in Hamburg and Norway with it, but even on clay felt it was not as good an all-round weapon as the WSPM.
The WS Mid (later Masters 30) was a 30% larger than standard sized mid, G/F composite, flexier overall than the WSPM/M10 and with a more open string pattern. A fun racket to play, lighter than the WSPM it was their offering at the time for the dedicated S/V player as it lacked some automatic "oomph" off the ground. Milan Srejber used it for a while on tour. When Kneissl introduced the interesting Aero 20 (in 1984) and Aero 30 (in 1985), the WS Mid/M30 basically became redundant, although it was available until 1987.
The WS Big was aimed at recreational players and was a 40% larger than standard "oversize" (now considered a midplus). This again was a G/F comp, flexier than the others (except perhaps the Twin). Initially (1980-1982ish) it was a monoshaft frame, as was the first iteration of the WS Mid, but from 1983-1985 it was a split-shaft. Kneissl dropped this frame when they switched their graphics and naming for the 1986 line, hoping players who liked this frame would move over to the Aero 30C.
The Masters 25 should be included, as it replaced the WS Twin in 1986 with a new mold, slightly larger in the head and stiffer overall, without the big, blocky shoulders of the Twin. However, it didn't make much of an impression as it was discontinued after two years.
Kneissl made some great frames. In 1985, the White Star Pro Masters was used in more grand slam finals than any other model of frame on tour. I still find it disappointing that economic considerations and the widebody craze of the late 80's effectively killed Kneissl's involvement in the tennis market. Although their newer models (Muster specials) have had their place, they are nothing like the originals.
the white star twin and lendl pro (or masters) really capture that wonderful feel. Retrowagon said it perfectly, the gtx was a shrunk down yamaha secret, or keubler profile...stiff! The brilliance of kneissl is the feel, feeling every millimeter of the racquet resonate and respond, brilliant!!!! their closed throat monoshafts were interesting. Still looking for headsize on the mid monoshaft. Rumors say that lendl pj'ed kneissl 20's as opposed to using the adidas.
I have the same mono White Star as Mick, only mine is the Mid version.
please Virginia, what is the headsize? would absolutely love some pics as well.....Heard about your neighbors drought, heartbreaking, the stories of Aussies left with nothing but the burnt clothes on their back is sad. 12 year drought sucks too...Wish I could drop everything and help...
The headsize is less than 85si - hard to measure exactly, because of its shape.
Yes, the fires in Australia have been absolutely devastating and they think around half of them were lit deliberately!
that was an awesome frame!!!!!!!!! yes, the one Lendl used and Curren, it sure seemed like the white star had more inate power and feel than the addias GTX. what an astonishing collection !!!!! just Great!!!!
please provide some links so that we can research this. as well as kneissl pics. Under 85 but bigger than a kneissl? do yours have the blue and green dovetail graphic or is it blue and red dovetail??? don't you love that kneissl feel? I play with a ps 85...the kneissls have about 5 times as much feel!!! like playing tennis with a viola or violin...
Kirkos comment on innate power and feel of white Star vs. gtx was accurate.....Kevin Curren vs. Boris Becker....wow....the kneissl vs. the Puma Winner...
So the Red Star Pro (with boron) that you have pictured here was different in its composition from the regular Red Star (grey with red pinstripe cosmetics and red grommets), right? The Red Star Mids I had were VERY flexible, at least as much as a Rossignol F200. The one in your picture looks so great!
What about breakage problems with 1980s Kneissls? The hollow core design was not the most durable, apparently.
I only noticed two problems during everyday use of these frames for several years, when they were new:
The first came from throwing them on hardcourts on my bad days.
The other was that I preferred mine strung at tensions of 2.3 Kg (5 pounds) over the manufacturer's suggested limit... And within a few hours of play, the spaces of frame between the grommet holes in the upper hoop would collapse.
my white stars are strung with poly, waaay above the reccomended tension....never any problems...I beleive these are tougher than ps 85's, 200g's and f200's combined...only thing soft about kneissl is their touch, and that's by design...
Retrowagen, weren't the Aero models also available in blue cosmetics? I remember an Aero 30 C with light blue paint. The Aero line was an interesting move from Kneissl, considering that their previous models were rather bulky in comparison. In my recollection, the Aero models felt less solid and had a lot of lateral flex in the head.
About the demise of Kneissl in the widebody era: didn't Bruguera win his first French Open with an unmarked Kneissl semi-widebody? Of course the brand did not adjust well to the widebody craze and disappeared soon after.
The 2007 White Star are very different from the originals, apart from the white paint. The extended length, Head-shaped grip, and the overall shape of the frame are just too different. They're still decent frames, though.
Thats right I remember the White Star Aero 20C and 30C or Club were a pastel blue with a pink grommet spoiler.
Fabrice, you have a good memory. The Aero 30C (Club) was pastel blue. The Aero 20C was pastel grey with pinkish grommet and slot cover.
The triangular cross-section of these frames wasn't as torsionally solid as the more conventional, traditional White Star "box beam." Nevertheless, the Aero series were interesting frames. Matt Anger, Heinz Gunthardt, and Andreas Maurer used the Aero 20 on the pro tour for a while. I'm not sure which Kneissl model Brugera used in his first Roland Garros win.
It seems like the newer generation of the Kneissls were almost clones of the Head PT630, thanks to a certain Herr Muster being catered to.
Helena Sukova moved form the white star masters to the aero. She had much better form and timing than even Navratilova and Smapras. One of the most technically underrated yet greatest players of all time...a tall czech hottie...mmmm. Helena
Wow, Heinz Gunthardt... He also had a contract with Browning for a while, and played with their monoshaft white frame. Didn't Pavel Slozil and the Maleeva sisters use Kneissl as well? Remember Juan Aguilera?
Two of the Maleeva sisters did, IIRC, and Slozil, and Aguilera, and Jakob Hlasek, and Marian Vajda (Czech ATP player), and Petra Huber (Austrian WTA player), and ...
the classy sassy Boer Constirctor, Kevin Curren:
Here's a pic of some of my white frames, which includes the White Star:
Was it this one?
the blue and green dovetail are earlier versions than the red and blue dovetial ( I was thinking of using "skidmarks" but I like "dovetail" better as a description). The very first vesions are all white. Looks to have an adidas steincil and the classic air rifle technology typical of white stars.
Better feel than a wood racquet... when used with proper long strokes the ball makes love to the racquet and Mozart is heard!!!
Yes that's the Browning indeed (BT 400). There was also a standard size open throat model (BT 500??). They made a whistling sound when swung, and were very very stiff. They were made at a gun factory not far from where I grew up. Strange honeycomb structure, unlike anything else ever produced. I once found one left in a teaching basket at an indoor facility in the late 90s, and hit ten balls with hit. It was still much stiffer than the Pro Staff 6.1 I was using at the time, which itself had an RA of 70! Browning made midsize frames with that design, but they were prone to cracking, and gave many club players a case of tennis elbow!
Plasma tell me more about this stiffer Red Star. Have you played with it much. Give us reviews of all of your babies.
red star did not have the snap resonance and fine tuned brilliance of the kevlar white star. The Boron stiffened the layup too much. Unlike the gtx pro-t which is a more forgiving, stiff, rubbery, and consistent manuverable high performance version of the gtx, the red star pro and the adidas boron are less responsive, less unified, less resonant, and more serious. Response time off the string bed seems shorter, they seem less patient and less friendly.
What about the other ones you have? You have like 5 other ones on your pictures, I want to know about each of these. What are the differences, which one plays the best? Weight, Balance, swing weight, etc.
there's no best or worst. All white stars with the box beam have the same feeling. It's an angelic snap. The pro masters is underpowered, the Masters 30 is much more powerful than a prostaff and plays like an aeropro drive with a soul. The aero is unique but I prefer the box beam, even though the aero is a decent pro racquet perfect for modern lendl wannabees. White star twin is sublime. Like a vacuum pro, the lendl pro is one of the best feeling racquets ever; packed with herbs spices, gooey caramel nougat and ceramic nectar, and a rich buttery, savory hearty home-cooked flavor, the lendl pro is more of a universe of blessed experience than a mere racquet per se, my favorite of all time, a symphonic dyonisian masterpiece!
If Fabrice is going to bring up Browning racquets, I have to throw out an early Kneissl pro who final'ed at the WCT Forest Hills T of C in '81, beating McEnroe along the way with monoshaft Kneissl White Star Mids: Carlos Kirmayr (BR).
Just trying to not be out-obscured.
plasma, I love your prose, and agree if you're saying that the Lendl/Pro Masters/Masters 10 has a more solid, bulkier feel than the larger headed White Stars. I got my first Lendl around 84, as they were disappearing, and the feel was awesome - wood-like but with more snap and energy return. This is consistent throughout the small-headed Pro line. By contrast, I've also tried the Twin and the Mid (open throats both), and they were lighter and while solid played almost hollow in feel, less substantial than the Lendl and its successors. This all makes sense because the Lendl was Kneissl's "pro" frame which they notoriously set out as "tournament level" only - one would expect a difference in feel.
Fabrice. You're right.
The Browning split-throat is the BT 500. This it. And it does whistle when you swing it. It's one of my favorites, actually, a very interesting frame. The throat says it has a "light alloy cellular structure." The cover is actually from a BT400, so I should send it to you, Virginia. What will you give me for it?
That's the one. I haven't seen those in ages! Super-stiff frame, even by today's standards. My tendons are hurting just looking at it.
Carlos K., yes, of course... Great memory, Colpo.
It so happens I have a cover for mine, schu47, otherwise I might have been tempted to enter into some negotations.
Actually that BT 500 looks very nice - it's the first time I've seen a Browning anywhere, other than my own.
in terms of playability white racquets usually signify ceramic flexiness. It breaks my heart that the browning is said to be stiff. The grommets give me kneissl flashbacks. I guess that making a unique sound and being beautiful enough to put in a museum is the only thing it shares with kneisls. Too bad. I'd still like to try one with a dampener and rate its performance, would look sweet on my wall as well...graphics are almost cartoon like, fantastic!!!!!
How much would a Kneissl White Star Big would be worth these days? I have an opportunity to pick one up really cheap
When I hit with a Lendl Pro aka air rifle a few months back, I remember, even the people at three courts down started staring at me...POP!!! I love that sound...this and the RD7 with a multi...totally sounds like a Smith & Wesson lol..
do you like to hit straight through the ball??? it's impossible to do accurately with modern racquets which are only good for topspin. Connors and Lendl owned with monoshafts but withered with mids. Thats' because monoshafts are more powerful and accurate, just takes a really strong player to use them..
White Stars for sale
I have a couple of White Star Masters 50 for sale.
ad posted in for sale. condition 7/10
email for pics
masters 50, you mean a 116 in white star?.....even I'VE never seen one of those!!!
He meant Masters 30. I tried to buy them, but he lost my email, now he has sold them
you guys don't realize how rare kneissls are.....plasmas favorite.... would BARELY pick a fortnight of wild passionate (sweaty, nekkid) love with Kournikova over a single white star masters....I saw pics of them as well....also sad that they are not in my hands....did I mention how rare and great these are?....
What's a reasonable price for a Kneissl White Star, Twin White Star (Austria), Boron, Graphite, Fiberglass? Is $60 okay?
the white star twin feels as good as Kournikovas tushy, I would gladly pay $60 for either...
how about a Kneissl White Star Big?
that's more like Serenas Booty, between kneissl 25 and 30 is not 5 square inches but 25 square feet. That's because by Plasmas Formula (yup I invented it) every square inch increases the legth of a baseline drive by 1 foot. 30's, or bigs play just like aeropro drives. After a certain point a kneissl is no loger a kneissl, this is not heaven, I am not Jesus, this is no forum, this is no arrow....Aguire the wrath of plasma!
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