Koubek suspended 3 months.

I'm sure all of you know that Koubek was suspended for 3 months for having a banned substance in his system.The substance used was triamcinalone acetonide which is used to treat exema.It is steroid based, but the steroid portion of it is used to kill dying skin and allow for natural healing, but the only side effects to it are that it makes skin white and patchy in color as well as not curing the itch that comes with exema.I know this becuase I have exema and although I'm not a doctor I"ve done my homework on this drug.There is no way possible to abuse this drug or alter it in order to create better physical performance.Imo this drug, becuase it is steroid based is illiegal, not becuase it has a benefit physically, becuase it has none. Koubek probably has exema and this is commonly prescribed along with regular use of sunblock. The steroid used in this drug is specificlaly designed to attack affected cells and not any other so since it's used on the skin it's not going to make him any better than anyone else.I think that the list of banned drugs are a big skewed.Exema has 2 other treatments.Usually after triamcinalone acetonide it goes to another similar steroid based drug(can't remember name),then lately the most expensive kind is elidel which is non steroid based, but not for chronic and severe cases, which he may have.


Talk Tennis Guru
5.0, triamcinolone acetonide is also an ingredient in Nasacort AQ, a nasal spray used to treat allergies. Not sure how this would give anyone an unfair advantage. Corticosteroid is a generic name for the group of hormones that have a Cortisone-like action. They are man-made steroids that mimic the activity of cortisone. Cortisone is produced naturally in the body and is involved in regulating inflammation, thus dealing with injury. Thus corticosteroids are not the same as anabolic steroids. Corticosteroids are used in the treatment of many diseases like asthma, eczema, allergies, arthritis, colitis and kidney disease. Have used Nasacort AQ personally for hay fever, its effective.
ya man..dude is white as a ghost...needs lots of sunblock in most any form...rules like this are ridiculous.going back to petr korda..like where was he going w.whatever he took? and then you have barry bonds.......
Ronaldo knows of what he speaks. Nice post. I'm an RN and I've also had a kidney/pancreas transplant. I take Prednisone, a steroid. It's one of the antirejection medications, used in combination with 2 others I take. Like Ronaldo said, it's a corticosteroid, not an anabolic steroid. Most of these are used to reduce inflammation in some way. I cannot see it enhancing performance in any way. It does have serious side effects though. 1. It causes your glucose levels to go up, usually to a point that you are hyper only to a point, then your body tries to get rid of the glucose by urinating more. You can get dehydrated. 2. It makes you hungry. 3. It causes insomnia (certainly not good for athletes). 4. It causes cataracts. I've had cataract surgery in both eyes now. I've seen one transplant patient go blind overnight with one, I.V. injection of a high dose of solumedrol (I.V. form of prednisone). Over time, it causes your bones to weaken, your fat deposits to shift, and your joints to erode. If you've ever seen a serious asthmatic with a round face, hunched back, thin arms and legs with a thicker chest, it's due to the prednisone. With side effects like these, I doubt he was taking it to enhance his performance.


Talk Tennis Guru
Steve, just read the box of my and my wife's nasal spray. Have my own medical issues to get through. Bone-on-bone elbow, 2nd open heart surgery, higher glucose level, high blood presure. I chose to forgo all allergy treatment until my ordeal is over. Cannot understand how this drug is a banned substance unles it masked another substance. After reading about athletes of the 80s abuse, we really are clueless about the process and deception of our present athletes.
Ridiculous! A cortico steroid with no enhancing side benefits. I assume this is a prescription med. Is there an appeal process? ATP makes itself look silly with this.
Datacipher said:
It is said that these drugs can produce a stimulant "high" which could potentially be performance enhancing. Can also mask pain and fatigue.

The ITF bears no blame whatsoever in this, the responsibility and blame lie solely on Koubek and if Koubek's claims are true, then Koubek's doctor. They between the 2 of them will have to decide who screwed up.
i think its the way you define a steroid, a steroid is defined as a 4 ring, carbon based substance (usually 17 carbons), i guess what he was caught for was a 4 ring 17 carbon substance, cholesterol is a steroid by definition, yet i don't think theres any rules for that substance.

The difference between what we think is a steroid and what is a steroid is in perspective. Scientists and atp think its a 4 ring 17 carbon substance. While the common person see's steroids as a substance that gives you muscles and overnight size like the "incredible hulk"
I was just put on a long-term steroid based inhaler for asthma of course. The inhaler is not based on anabolic steroids however. Was the medication that he used based on an anabolic steroid? If not, it would be absolutely stupid to suspend for any amount of time.
what I want to know is who is putting all these drugs on these lists they use and who is regulating the people who are adding them?Question everything.We as normal tennis players and humans would never pass a sports drug test.I can almost guarantee that with all the pseudophedrene and other over the counter drugs and caffine we take and let alone the hundreds of foods we consume from the hundreds of places we eat them from, we would be banned for sure. It's so weird to see all these crazed junkie scientists who take a little bit of science and run so far with it that it no longer resembles the truth.Sure they got their MD's, but does anyone really check their credentials, the actual studies used, peer review. I mean lets say I'm a doctor and I say that blah blah drug is performance enhancing, and I "say" I have proof from my single blind study, and I go to some drug enforcement authority and suddenly it's on the list. Lets say it turns out I'm a foot specialist(way out of my league),my single blind study is totally biased, and I'm laughed out of the medical community.I just feel for the guy becuase I have excema and I used that drug for a while and I've heard from all my doctors that it's fine.I passed every single drug test for work, school with flying colors.
According to a report I saw, Koubek blamed an injection intended to relieve a wrist problem. Two observations -- first, why, if a player needs treatment, can't he just go to an ATP approved doctor and get what he needs. Provided that there is a clinical need and subsequent checks indicate no drug use other than to meet the clinical need there should be no problem. Secondly, a three month ban is tantamount to saying that Koubek has not done much wrong. It isn't an appropriate punishment for cheating by the use of srugs, and it isn't a deterrent to serious drug misuse -- but it is a deterrent to the use of ordinary medication for illness. So it seems to recognise that nothing is seriously wrong. Compare the one year ban that Rusedski faced. So what is going on?
I hear pro players are even scared to take the common stuff like Tylenol, Advil, etc. because of the 'overlaps' in these ridiculous drug rules.

Back to this Koubek case, we have to remember what a steroid is: artificial hormones.

Despite many studies done on the usage of triamcinalone acetonide and other similar steroids, it's still hard to predict if there are physical benefits or not.

It used to be believed that artifical hormones (steroids) injected into males often have physcial side-effects no matter what it's usage is for (exema, pain killers, etc.)

More of the scientific community have deviated from this belief, but it's common knowledge to those in the pro and semi-pro field that the former is true.

Think about it: why do you think most male hormones are stereotyped wih masculinity, strength, etc.?[/u]


Practical Common Sense

I agree with Hawaii 5.0. Some quack says a drug is performance enhancing, then it goes on the list. How much study is put into it? I'm not sure and I bet the players are not sure. Anti-doping agencies are on a crusade. They go overboard. Players won't even take cold tablets in fear of going through what Rusedski had to put up with. The ATP was wrong then and probably wrong now. How can players trust the ATP if it was the ATP who passed out tainted products. Over 30 players test samples showed trace elements of banned substances. Peter Korda, Bohdon Ullirach, Greg Rusedski, now Koubek.

Anyone going to say they are sorry for ruining these players careers over trace elements? The ATP should use some brains and spend more time promoting the game than using money for court cases and seven figure settlements to Rusedski for being wrong. That money just covered Rusedski's legal bills. He just wanted to resume his career, unlike Korda, it cost Korda his tennis career. The witch hunt cost Rusedski over 80 places in rankings and he received not one wildcard in any tourneys from the ATP. It was their fault he did not received automatic entry into tourneys when his ranking was taken from him. How fare is that? The ATP should have froze his ranking until the investigation was over, the WTA does it for the Williams sisters for their mile long injury lists. They did for Seles when she was stabbed. Rusedski was stabbed, right in the back by the ATP.

Players like Agassi and Rusedski have been meeting with the ATP to get some good old common sense back into the game. With the balco scandel killing baseball as we speak, do we really want tennis to be tarnished?

I agree there should be testing. Steroids and Human Growth Hormone should be banned from all sports. The ATP should develop a common sense list of banned substance and hire credible doctors that can meet and advise players at anytime regarding the nature of products they are taking. The ATP should also research a nutrition drug company that is fail safe against tainted products. The ATP should develop a product list from all players and coaches regarding the players supplement needs and bid the contract to the most credible drug company. Players get what they want, the ATP is happy, and the tennis fans won't miss their favorite players who are not allowed to play in tourneys because they tested positive for traces of banned substances.

I don't take steroids, but I sure do eat alot of them in my meat and chicken everyday. How many products have banned substances in them that we eat everyday. Is a double Capacinno at Starbucks a banned subtance? If it is, I just failed my drug test.

You are right Hawaii 5.0, I never could pass a ATP sanctioned test. Just ask my wife, I am clearly not on PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS :)
This thread only goes to prove that there are still a lot of people out there with a great deal of naivety. I suppose there will always be people who dont' want to believe that doping has been with us in tennis for over 30 years....

It's time to clean up the sport. No more excuses, no more leeway.

A few notes:

Rusedski was guilty. No ifs, ands or buts. Any objective person can see this. Read the evidence. Rusedski's defence was a technical one....you really expect us to believe that Rusedski had not heard of the Ulirach case or of the contaminated tablets....so he kept taking them....ROFL....PLEASE!

Yes, I for one could pass the drug tests.

No, you won't test positive because of some meat you ate. Look into the testing protocols. Research just how much meat and what kind you'd have to consume to test positive. It's not a realistic scenario.

If you're taking psuedoephedrine products for any extended length of time, then you'd better check with a doctor. Generally, they are not meant to be taken that way and could be potentially dangerous.

If you want to argue the substance Koubek tested positive for should not be on the list fine. Present your medical evidence...I have seen nothing but uninformed laymen's opinions here. It's hilarious. I have already told you why some researchers think it may be performance enhancing...however, regardless of whether it is or isn't....it IS ON THE LIST. THEREFORE it's Koubek's responsibility. It's a bit late to argue it shouldn't be on the list after you've tested positive. However, because Koubek likely did not get performance benefits from it, I support the light punishment.

It's actually quite possible to pass the drug tests...in all probability too easy. Federer was tested almost 20 times last year...he passed. So do HUNDREDS of other players tested multiple times.

I guesss I'm just passionate becuase I know it's widespread and I'm afraid more and more kids will be going down this road even in tennis.... as Andrew Illie says"

The problem is so bad that you might as well just let them use it, and when players see people dying on court and exploding, then it's going to change their minds," said Australian player Andrew Ilie, who has repeatedly stated that the men's tour is rife with drug use. "People are just happy to sacrifice their health for three years of fame."

I APPLAUD ESCUDE, ILLIE and others who are telling the truth. Others might think it's good for the sport to keep it under wraps and cover it up, but I say let's do all we can do stop it now!


Datacipher must get a response.

Who is naive? Why did the ATP drop charges on Ullirach, Rusedski, and 47 other pros that tested positive for trace and I mean trace elements. The answer is that the ATP passed out the tainted supplements. The ATP admitted it. Yes, the mighty ATP tour trainers were passing out supplements during the year that did not come from a reputable, clean, and informed sports nutrition company. You know how I know that, they pulled the company off the tour. Trainers pulled everything from future tour stops.

The ATP released a statement clearing Ullirach and Rusedski. The other 47 players were never named in the sealed investigation. How do you know if Federer was clean or not? You assume he tested negative. He could be one of the 47 tainted cases. We will never know! Guga, Hewitt, Spadia, Byran Brothers, who knows? I will tell you, the ATP does.

ATP is responsible for a standard level of fair play for all players.

1. Educate players on what supplements to take.

2. Contract with a proven sports nutrition company approved by anti doping agencies and reputable doctors in the field.

3. Clearly define what supplments are to be avoided if a player choses to go on their own.

4. Clearly define what constitutes a banned substance and at what levels.

5. Freeze the accused players rankings until an INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION reveals the player was clearly using a banned substance.

In a court of law you are 1. Notified of the charges. 2. You plead guilty, not guilty, or no contest. 3. If you plead not guilty, you have a right to speedy trial among your peers. 4. If you are convicted, you have 30 days to appeal to see if a lower court errored in the conviction. Only after that has been exhusted are you then punished. Innocent until proven guilty.

When did the ATP follow any of these rights of a Democracy? Rusedski was GUILTY until proven innocent. Here is the timeline.

1. Test postive for trace of Naladrone.
2. Banned 1 year
3. Lost 60 ranking positions
4. Lost money while not playing tournaments.
5. Lost endorsements, Freeserve (Donnay stood by Rusedski)
6. Went to trial using his own money.
7. ATP then investigates only because Rusedski fights back.
8. Rusedski is cleared of charges after 5 months in a two sentence ATP statement.
9. Rusedski received a 7 figure settlement from the ATP.
10. Rusedski agrees to not go after the ATP in a counter lawsuit.
11. Rusedski resumes his career in tennis.
12. Lost direct entries into tournaments (Masters Cincy)
13. Received not a single wildcard for any tournament sanctioned by the ATP.
14. Rusedski has his name tarnished because the ATP was ignorant regarding was supplements they were passing out to players.

Who is naive? You and the ATP. Rusedski was vidicated yet he was still robbed and thrown under a bridge. You want me to read the evidence? I have the evidence and it is undisputable. Public Information Act. You can get the transcipts from New York. Only the names of the 47 players (unlike Rusedski's) were sealed. Was that justice? The ATP needs to step in, but with common sense.

What the ATP should have done is publicly apologise to tennis fans, coaches, and most of all, the players. The ATP caused this mess, I hoped they would have used the same vigor to correct these mistakes that they did to cover their own asses.

I wait for any responses.
The majority of your post is completely irrelevant Paddy. You are a diehard Rusedski fan, I understand that. I'll make this simple.

Now here is the "timeline" you should be concerned with, if you want to know the truth. I already said that Greg used legal arguments to cloud the issue enough to prevent a definitive finding of guilt.

Now explain to me why you heard of contaminated tablets, I heard about the contaminated tablets, but Greg RuPEDSki did not? It was the talk of the tour, the talk of the locker room, official statements were made, but RuPEDski did not hear about it? He continued to used the contamined supplements eh?

That is what I mean by naivety. When players like Escude openly tell you drug use is widespread and systematic and you think tennis is clean....that is naivety.

"The final flimsy barrier standing in the way of Greg Rusedski's return to the game was lifted yesterday when, as expected, the Association of Tennis Professionals, the men's ruling body, decided not to appeal against his acquittal on a doping charge.

There was never the slightest possibility that the ATP would take the case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, principally because it did not want to air its dirty washing in public again.

Rusedski, who has been back in practice since being cleared this month after testing positive for the banned steroid nadrolone in July, is due to make his return next week in the Davis Cup when Britain visit Luxembourg.

"We decided that going to the CAS would not be in the sport's best interests," said the ATP vice-president David Higdon yesterday. "We have decided not to appeal. We have just agreed to help him get back into the game."

But this may not be the end of the Rusedski affair, much as the ATP would like it to be. The World Anti-Doping Agency is examining papers from the seven tribunals before Rusedski's case when all the players involved - the Czech Bohdan Ulihrach and six unnamed others - were absolved after testing positive for nandrolone.

This was because the ATP could neither prove nor disprove that its own trainers may have been the source. Rusedski argued that he too had received contaminated supplements in good faith from the ATP and was exonerated.

Wada has never been convinced that the ATP trainers were the source of the eight positive tests and this month Mark Miles, the ATP chief executive, admitted it was unlikely they had been involved. This year there have been a further 21 readings of nandrolone, but below the positive level, more than seven months after the ATP told its trainers to stop handing out supplements. "



I know the timeline. I read that article you retyped. It came out months ago. Greg has been playing since the middle of this year. Don't think me being a fan clouds my judgement. Greg did not use "legal arguments to cloud the issue". The ATP admitted they were wrong in two sentences. I am okay with that fact, like I said it is UNDISPUTABLE.

The fact of the matter is players are being unfairly treated by the ATP. That is the issue. The players have rights when charges are made.

You ever meet Greg, talk to him, chat online with him? I have. He is not some dumb Canuck that lives in Great Britain. I am sure he and other players heard about Ullirach. They figured it was an isolated case. Maybe Ullirach was taking his own trainers supplements. 46 other players tested and came back positive. Now Koubek. So by your context, they are all stupid idiots so they get what they deserve? Throw them under the bus!

An ATP trainer gives you a supplement, it does not occur to you that if you take it you will fail a drug test. Why would it? The trainer works for the ATP. You don't hear other sports and leagues giving tainted supplements to their star athletes.

And in the article on the ATP not appealing the acquital of Rusedski, what a shocking revelation you shared with us. The ATP paid him in the neighborhood of a million dollars in a settlement so Greg would not hang them in court. Rusedski had the ATP by the neck and he chose to resume tennis and put it behind him. Why in the world would the ATP appeal when they admitted to wrongdoing in a cleverly contrived two sentence statement? As far as the trainers not being involved, what you think Mark Miles is going to say, sorry they made a mistake? That is naive on your part. Of course Miles is going to say "WE CANNOT CONFIRM NOR DENY TRAINERS UNKNOWINGLY PASSED OUT CONTAMINATED SUPPLEMENTS TO PLAYERS". That is a standard public relations tactic, the ATP has to say something but they don't want to get pinned down on a more closed ended statement. You say that Greg is clouding the issue? The statement is right out of Public Relations 101 textbook. That statement has the same outlook everytime, "cloudy with a chance of rain."

You go ahead and listen to Escude. I know that one of the best to ever lace them up is very critical of the ATP on this matter. His name is Andre Agassi. Why do you think he is on board to help solve this problem? It is a concern, Agassi was quoted to saying he is scared to death regarding testing positive for a banned substance. The article refered to Lance Armstrong woes of being dipicted as a cheater. He is cycling best rider, ever. Agassi and Rusedski's efforts have been proactive on this matter and not reactive. ATP should take some notes in the next few months from Andre and Greg.

I am sure some players are on the juice, they want that edge. I want it stopped as much as you do, but don't make a witchhunt out of it. Educate the players, make your policy easy to understand, go with a company that you can trust for ATP sanctioned supplements. Those were my points.

It cost Rusedski the year, do you understand that? You seem happy about that. Don't blame legal tricks. Nobody gave Greg a chance to win that case and he did. Rusedski won the case but he still lost his year in tennis.

I also take offense to you calling him RuPEDski. How old are you? I maybe a fan, but that is weak and uncalled for.
Maybe Agassi is scared becose... you fill the missing part. Talking about Lance, I cannot comprehend that someone thinks he is not using and is living in the same world as i am.
Pahansuopa said:
Maybe Agassi is scared becose... you fill the missing part. Talking about Lance, I cannot comprehend that someone thinks he is not using and is living in the same world as i am.
I know Pahan....I am a big Agassi fan....but one of his practice partners suggested to me he was using and that was back in the late 90's! But hey, if he is, i guess he's just leveling the field....:-(
Paddy, you're starting to get silly, so I wont' keep replying. Obviously you don't understand what I'm telling you.

By my context they are not stupid idiots who should be thrown under the bus. By my context they all knew about the alleged contaminated tablets. They would not come up with their own theory that they were Ulirach's personal tablets, they had no reason to not believe it was the tablets the ATP gave out. No, indeed, they would have stopped using those tablets, thus the tablets cannot be blamed for the future positives.

The article makes it quite clear why the ATP did not press the issue. The ATP has indeed screwed up, by letting a player like RuPEDski slide off, these "loopholes" need to be closed. Now. For the good of the game.

How odd that you would bring up Agassi's comments to counter Escude's. They are not related. Those Agassi quotes do not contradict his statements.

It's funny you say your personal fan bias towards Greg is not a factor in your judgemnent...then a few lines later ask if i have talked and chatted with him! lol. It's pretty obvious where you are coming from.

You also hang yourself badly when you mention Armstrong. Armstrong and everyone else in the Tour have been doping heavily for a long time. This one isn't even a secret to the general public. Entire teams have been disqualified and as one top cyclist said "you're an idiot if you get caught!" Most are able to mask their doping effectively. I'm afraid it's you who are the young one...or at least I hope you are and that one day you come to realize the folly of your hero worship. I merely take this stance because I dream of a drug free athletic world rather than than the hopelessly drug afflicted one we have now...because I hope one day in the future, kids will not need this to compete. Unfortunately the problem is sure to get worse before it get's better. Particularly with standards like this and a general public living in fantasy land.


Data, Data, Data

I dream of a drug free world of sports as well. I can't believe you keep missing that point. I played Division 1 football in the 90's. I know players were juicing. They kept getting suspended AFTER the NCAA investigated postive tests. Our quarterback weighed 190 pounds in November and came to camp the next August at 235 pounds. He also increased his bench press from 225 to 450 pounds in 8 months. Suddenly he started to have strange illnesses that affected his thyroid and lympathic tissue. He was out of football 4 months later with an in house suspension. We were never told what it was. Come to find out 10 years later he was dismissed by the team after he admitted juicing to the school. The NCAA did not have to suspend him, because our school dismissed him from the team. My school did the responsible action, only after an investigation and an omission by the player.

I believe in testing, but do it right, and investigate positive tests correctly, educate players on supplements, use a reputable supplement company, and give acused players due process.

For the last time, the ATP must use caution when testing and banning. You must investigate before you ban. If you find undisputable evidence that a player is juicing, you nail that player to the wall, after and only after does that said player receive his or her due process.

The point is, in the Rusedski case, the ATP acted foolishly into rushing a ban of a player who was later vidicated. No loopholes, the ATP quiety made a mistake and poorly investigated the matter of trainers passing out tainted supplements.

When Ullirach was banned, the players were not sure what caused it. They play tennis, they don't investigate. They rely on the ATP to have clean products and why shouldn't they? You assume Rusedski and other players knew about tainted ATP supplments. Once the ATP knew for sure they were passing out tainted products, they pulled the company and products off the ATP tour so the players had no chance of taking the tainted supplements. If the ATP knew about the tainted products which caused Ullirach positive test, why did they not pull the supplements after Ullirach's positive test? Why were the supplements still out on the tour for other players to take? Clearly at that time, the ATP had no idea what caused Ullirachs positive test. The ATP investigated the matter while Ullirach was banned. This proves that Rusedski and 47 other players did not act foolishly by taking the ATP sanctioned supplements, the ATP and the players clearly did not know these supplements were tainted. If the ATP knew they were passing out banned supplements when Ullirach was banned, that would be a scandel of all scandals. Almost as big as Balco. That would make the ATP the laughing stock of sports. Why do you think everything was hush hush by the ATP? Rusedski and the 47 other players would end up owning the ATP if that were the case.

The ATP hurt Ullirach's and Rusedski's career by not doing their homework and jumping the gun to ban them without having the proof their ATP sanctioned products were clean.

As far as Armstrong, I am not sure he is juicing, but I find rather odd he is America's shining star, but he ditched the Olympics. Why? Either he was tired from France, juicing, didn't care, and or injured. Those and other factors have been wrangled over for months by sports gurus.

As far as Escude, I don't see him doing anything but pointing the finger saying tennis players are juicing up. Is Escude on the players committe on this issue? The answer is no. Is Agassi and Rusedski? You know the answer, yes! I will side with Agassi and Rusedski who are trying to do something about this mess. You side with Escude and yell "CONSPIRACY, THE PLAYERS ARE ALL JUICING!"

As far as my hero worship of Greg? Funny how try to use that point when you call him RuPEDski. You look a little foolish resorting to name calling. What's next, are you going to post that RuPEDski is a "LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE". Stick to well managed auguments and solid sports takes. Mix in some proof and common sense and stop ASSuming. :)


Hall of Fame
paddyslad said:
Blah blah blah half page more irrelevant babble..

Ultimately it's the players final responsibility for what they decide to ingestion or inject into their bodies.

Greg Rusedsk was irresponsible and naive.

He paid the proper price for his foolishness.. ATP owes him nothing.

Get over it!
No point arguing with a fanboy. It's you who missed the point Paddy. There was no mistake with RuPEDski except an inability to properly enforce the rules by allowing PED to slip through the cracks by clouding the issue. He cheated, he got away with it. It's sad.


The American Way

You are entitled to your opinion. That is why I want the ATP to follow due process. Players rights should be the same as the freedoms we enjoy in Democratic societies around the world. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. He was found innocent by the way. I know that is hard for you to except, but life's a ***** sometimes.

How is the weather in Cuba Data? Nice? Tell Castro I said hello and best wishes to him for a great New Year.
paddyslad said:
I know that is hard for you to except, but life's a ***** sometimes.

How is the weather in Cuba Data? Nice? Tell Castro I said hello and best wishes to him for a great New Year.

I completely accept it, RuPEDski got off, that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out about it. The weather is fine here. When you and OJ finally track down the real murderers you let me know.