Kyrgios is denied a medical time out and yet Harrison is allowed to leave court to change clothes

Should Kyrgios have been given a medical time out?

  • Yes - this rule shouldn't be fully enforced

    Votes: 6 17.1%

  • No - rules are rules

    Votes: 12 34.3%

  • Yes - this rule should be scrapped

    Votes: 17 48.6%
  • Total voters
    35
Sysyphus said:
No MTOs for pre-existing injuries is a sensible rule.

Players entering tournaments while injured has clearly been a big problem on tour. This rule provides a small incentive against it, and then there's the issue of prize money.
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You're also incentivizing players to give a lot more walkovers mid-tournament. What's the argument against it. That it takes time? Toilet breaks between sets take a lot longer.
 
Sysyphus said:
That's a non-sequitur if there ever was one.
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That's not how it works. All of your arguments speak not only against the pre-injured state but against the players being fully injured aswell.

Sysyphus said:
No MTOs for pre-existing injuries is a sensible rule.

Players entering tournaments while injured has clearly been a big problem on tour. This rule provides a small incentive against it, and then there's the issue of prize money.
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So now the injured are the problem? Not the "pre-injured"? Because the players you mentioned will receive mto. So where's the line?


Sysyphus said:
If a player has a pre-existing injury that won't let them complete a tournament, then they should perhaps not enter it in the first place.
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Sysyphus said:
Would you rather have plenty of injured players entering tournaments, stink it up, retire mid-match in front of thousands of paying audience members, as we have seen in numerous slam matches last year; or, would you rather they gave their spots to those who are healthy enough to compete? The fewer incentives for injured players to enter draws, the better. That's the point of the rule.
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So where in this are you not speaking against mtos? Unless you're allowing them to the players who got injured only during the tournament. Injuries rarely come as a result of a single day. If a player feels something wrong is happening to his/her body he/she should have full rights to be able to prevent it. And giving them 10 minutes per match is not a big cost.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Cause I do want to hear other opinions? Didn't realise I couldn't debate or respond.

This is a discussion forum after all...
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So that you can imply it's immoral to have such opinion? "Can't believe anyone would think being denied medical treatment is ok. This rule is absurd. Clearly needs to be rectified." Such responses aren't conducive to a productive discussion.
 
N01E said:
So now the injured are the problem? Not the "pre-injured"? Because the players you mentioned will receive mto. So where's the line?
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You seem confused. If you enter a tournament while injured, that's the very definition of a pre-existing injury. That's obviously different from, say, spraining your ankle within a match in the tournament.
 
Red Rick said:
You're also incentivizing players to give a lot more walkovers mid-tournament. What's the argument against it. That it takes time? Toilet breaks between sets take a lot longer.
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Removing incentives for unhealthy players to enter tournaments in the first place yields more walkovers? Doubtfully. This is the very group that most often end up giving walkovers or stinked-up performances.

Red Rick said:
Nah, just make them for Federer. TTW would love that.
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"let me see if I can sneak in something irrelevant and bitter about Fed and his fandom. Check."
 
The whole point of the rule is to discourage injured players from entering tournaments.

The argument you made about fans and money can easily be used a defense for the current rule.
 
Sysyphus said:
Removing incentives for unhealthy players to enter tournaments in the first place yields more walkovers? Doubtfully. This is the very group that most often end up giving walkovers or stinked-up performances.


"let me see if I can sneak in something irrelevant and bitter about Fed and his fandom. Check."
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Nailed it
 
heninfan99 said:
Doubles specialist
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I've been watching Ryan since he was 14 years old in the juniors. He only became a doubles specialist because he couldn't make a dent in the singles game. In 2012-2013 you had guys like Gilbert and Cliff Drysdale proclaim his a "future top 10 player." That didn't pan out. With Harrison's ego, the only way he would deign to play lowly doubles is because he wasn't even winning many Challenger events in Singles. Doubles is a pay check, he wanted to become a great singles player but doesn't have the game or the mindset to do it.
 
I actually like Kyrgios and am quite fond of his rejection of the terms of the conflict (tennis, sport is only about winning and losing). But there are players out there struggling to make ends meet and need the paychecks when they get them, even if means just getting dumped in the first round. One less injured main-draw-caliber player could be a crucial difference.

I don't think it's fair for the ATP to keep tabs on a player's injury in order to bar him from entry, but if he's taking a minor or moderate injury into a tournament, he now knows that he won't be getting special treatment for having generally reduced the quality of play. It sucks Kyrgios had to find out the hard way, but this is a good rule.
 
BeatlesFan said:
I've been watching Ryan since he was 14 years old in the juniors. He only became a doubles specialist because he couldn't make a dent in the singles game. In 2012-2013 you had guys like Gilbert and Cliff Drysdale proclaim his a "future top 10 player." That didn't pan out. With Harrison's ego, the only way he would deign to play lowly doubles is because he wasn't even winning many Challenger events in Singles. Doubles is a pay check, he wanted to become a great singles player but doesn't have the game or the mindset to do it.
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I think he has a great personality and he seems to very much enjoy doubles, enjoyed his win at the FO.
Lots of singles players do better in doubles and do it to make a bit of cash like Bolelli and of course it's about pay checks they are professional athletes.
 
Carsomyr said:
I don't think it's fair for the ATP to keep tabs on a player's injury in order to bar him from entry, but if he's taking a minor or moderate injury into a tournament, he now knows that he won't be getting special treatment for having generally reduced the quality of play. It sucks Kyrgios had to find out the hard way, but this is a good rule.
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Maybe it is, but I’d like to hear down the road about withdrawals that have occurred specifically because of the no treatment for existing injuries rule. If someone has the kind of injury that a glorified massage can effectively treat, it seems unlikely to me he’d skip a tournament over it. Unless he wants the MTO available as needed to make sure he isn’t doing further injury. I’d buy that.
 
Carsomyr said:
I actually like Kyrgios and am quite fond of his rejection of the terms of the conflict (tennis, sport is only about winning and losing). But there are players out there struggling to make ends meet and need the paychecks when they get them, even if means just getting dumped in the first round. One less injured main-draw-caliber player could be a crucial difference.

I don't think it's fair for the ATP to keep tabs on a player's injury in order to bar him from entry, but if he's taking a minor or moderate injury into a tournament, he now knows that he won't be getting special treatment for having generally reduced the quality of play. It sucks Kyrgios had to find out the hard way, but this is a good rule.
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The tour already has other rules in place to stop players entering main draws simply to withdraw or retire mid match if injured. This rule doesn't really prevent that and instead could increase retirements, withdrawals and worsen players injuries.


Also, I don't think I'd call a medical timeout 'special treatment'. It's pretty basic for players and human beings to be treated for injuries. Harrison was allowed 10 minutes to leave court and change and yet Kyrgios can't treat a real injury which could've resulted in his retirement? That would have annoyed thousands of fans. Pretty stupid rule i'd say?
 
Enforce the rule now, but change the rule.

If you're injured you should be able to recieve treatment. End of. Anything else is just silly.
 
This is in short why players keep on stating they are over injuries when clearly they are not.

It enables them to claim some sort of tweak and ask for the trainer for injuries we know they have, but they've stopped admitting to.

Not a tournament goes by when some player does not game the pre-existing injury rule.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
The tour already has other rules in place to stop players entering main draws simply to withdraw or retire mid match if injured. This rule doesn't really prevent that and instead could increase retirements, withdrawals and worsen players injuries.


Also, I don't think I'd call a medical timeout 'special treatment'. It's pretty basic for players and human beings to be treated for injuries. Harrison was allowed 10 minutes to leave court and change and yet Kyrgios can't treat a real injury which could've resulted in his retirement? That would have annoyed thousands of fans. Pretty stupid rule i'd say?
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You keep bringing up this thing about Harrison, which as far comparisons go, is apples-to-geodes. I also don't think that Harrison should be allowed 10 minutes off the court to change clothes, but that's neither here nor there. Nothing to do with the MTO rule, but simply exists as an immediate and disingenuous point of whataboutery.

And it's really not. It's not saying that if you get injured or seriously aggravate something mid-match, you shouldn't get treatment (I'm pretty sure the determination is left to the on-site physio, and not the supervisor). What it is saying is that if your injury is serious enough before entering a tournament or match that it requires you to need an MTO, then perhaps you shouldn't play. Maybe it will encourage players to be more cautious about their bodies, and maybe it will stop wasting fans and other players' time when guys are taking MTOs throughout a tourney's entirety.
 
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Yes, the two have nothing to do with each other. But the two happened together, so it threw into light some of the absurdity of the injury rule.

Ten minutes to refresh a smelly crotch and yet no time for an injury that could have stopped the championship in its tracks?

Carsomyr said:
You keep bringing up this thing about Harrison, which as far comparisons go, is apples-to-geodes. I also don't think that Harrison should be allowed 10 minutes off the court to change clothes, but that's neither here nor there. Nothing to do with the MTO rule, but simply exists as an immediate and disingenuous point of whataboutery.

And it's really not. It's not saying that if you get injured or seriously aggravate something mid-match, you shouldn't get treatment (I'm pretty sure the determination is left to the on-site physio, and not the supervisor); it's saying if your injury is serious enough before entering a tournament or match that it requires you to need an MTO, then perhaps you shouldn't play. Maybe it will encourage players to be more cautious about their bodies, and maybe it will stop wasting fans and other players' time when guys are taking MTOs throughout a tourney's entirety.
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heninfan99 said:
I think he has a great personality and he seems to very much enjoy doubles, enjoyed his win at the FO.
Lots of singles players do better in doubles and do it to make a bit of cash like Bolelli and of course it's about pay checks they are professional athletes.
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His singles game used to be a lot more offensive - the first time I ever watched him was at IW against Raonic in 2011 where it seemed like he was smashing the daylights out of any FH he could get his hands on. Harrison got hit with Roddick syndrome early and hard, and his temper didn't exactly help matters. I'm genuinely surprised he's brought himself back as far as he has, but it seems like he's been putting the work in.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Well what if it's an injury sustained in a 1R match? I think it's absurd to deny a MTO yet allow players to change off court or have fake MTO after losing a set,
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I thought the mto rules was for a match, not the tournament. Djok did it against stan in the us open final (worst sportsmanship ever). He had a toe injury, so the second time (on stans serve) he got the other toe looked it.

Didnt see it, but changing clothes in the middle of the set is as bad as it gets. Thats not a mto, how is changing clothes even allowed?
 
Bartelby said:
Yes, the two have nothing to do with each other. But the two happened together, so it threw into light some of the absurdity of the injury rule.

Ten minutes to refresh a smelly crotch and yet no time for an injury that could have stopped the championship in its tracks?
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Perhaps you're right — because of this incident where two things happened to coincide, the ATP should make a modification to Medical section of the Competition chapter that ties unrelated things together, something that says in the situation where Player A develops a swollen toenail on the leg he'd entered the tournament with wrapped in an orthopedic cast requires an MTO, Player B may use the extended examination period to:
a). evaucate bladder
b). evacuate bowels
c). evacuate scrotal fluid
d). hop in for a shower for no longer than either 5 minutes 30 seconds or until rated "zesty clean" by Tournament Bathing Director, whichever is longer
e). be transported off-site to consume no more than two (2) cigarette(s) and/or no more than one (1) alcoholic beverage
 
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Sysyphus said:
Because it's not a very interesting question. The rule isn't meant to be tailored to a single incident, but rather what's most sensible on a general basis. If a player has a pre-existing injury that won't let them complete a tournament, then they should perhaps not enter it in the first place.
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I see what you mean, but I think it depends on what you mean by "complete." I rather dislike the sort of attitude that Serena Williams expressed in her statement withdrawing from the AO that she doesn't want to play a tournament if she's not going to win it. I think that there's pride to be had in competing as well as one can for as long as one can, and don't necessarily think the tour should disincentivize players entering tournaments hoping to win a couple of rounds because of the achievement of winning those rounds. But I agree that it should try to avoid having players play four games so as to get the first-round cheque.
 
helterskelter said:
I see what you mean, but I think it depends on what you mean by "complete." I rather dislike the sort of attitude that Serena Williams expressed in her statement withdrawing from the AO that she doesn't want to play a tournament if she's not going to win it. I think that there's pride to be had in competing as well as one can for as long as one can, and don't necessarily think the tour should disincentivize players entering tournaments hoping to win a couple of rounds because of the achievement of winning those rounds. But I agree that it should try to avoid having players play four games so as to get the first-round cheque.
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I should have been clearer. I don't mean "complete the tournament" as in realistically go all the way. Just that you're healthy enough that a pre-existing injury shouldn't be likely to force you to withdraw midway in the tournament.
 
helterskelter said:
I rather dislike the sort of attitude that Serena Williams expressed in her statement withdrawing from the AO that she doesn't want to play a tournament if she's not going to win it.
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She has a ton of trophies and is 36 and did I mention that she just gave birth? Why should she play unless she thinks she's at her best?
 
EloQuent said:
She has a ton of trophies and is 36 and did I mention that she just gave birth? Why should she play unless she thinks she's at her best?
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She can do what she wants, but I don't see why not being at one's best is a reason not to play. You can still do the best you can in the circumstances.
 
Driving an argument to the point of absurdity can be fun, but the fact is that I explicitly ruled out connecting the two in terms of rule discussions.

So you got that absurdly wrong.

But the fact remains that to allow a shower break for the best part of ten minutes is an indulgence.

It's that rule that needs to be rethought. This is my sole point.

Carsomyr said:
Perhaps you're right — because of this incident where two things happened to coincide, the ATP should make a modification to Medical section of the Competition chapter that ties unrelated things together, something that says in the situation where Player A develops a swollen toenail on the leg he'd entered the tournament with wrapped in an orthopedic cast requires an MTO, Player B may use the extended examination period to:
a). evaucate bladder
b). evacuate bowels
c). evacuate scrotal fluid
d). hop in for a shower for no longer than either 5 minutes 30 seconds or until rated "zesty clean" by Tournament Bathing Director, whichever is longer
e). be transported off-site to consume no more than two (2) cigarette(s) and/or no more than one (1) alcoholic beverage
Click to expand...
 
Bartelby said:
Driving an argument to the point of absurdity can be fun, but the fact is that I explicitly ruled out connecting the two in terms of rule discussions.

So you got that absurdly wrong.

But the fact remains that to allow a shower break for the best part of ten minutes is an indulgence.

It's that rule that needs to be rethought. This is my sole point.
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Yes, you said this:
Bartelby said:
Yes, the two have nothing to do with each other.
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...And subsequently undermined your own point with this:
Ten minutes to refresh a smelly crotch and yet no time for an injury that could have stopped the championship in its tracks?
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Forgive me for being a bit confused when my post you quoted was about how they had nothing to with each other and shouldn't be compared, you nominally agreed...and then compared them to make your point.
 
So, this is a new rule? No MTO for chronic and already existing injuries?
Must be. Because most MTOs Ive seen are existing injuries.
Cilic showed up in the final with huge feet blisters. Players getting massage courtside.Nishikori many many times, Raonic.

Is this one of the new rules since Wimbledon and what happened there 1 round?
 
You are wrong as usual. The last point is a factual comparison. Not a legal comparison of the validity of the rules considered in their own right.

And as the point about smelly crotch should indicate, my scorn is mainly directed toward the triviality of allowing a refreshment break.

By and large, I agree with the pre-exisiting injury rule. It is however too easily gamed, as many have noted - see just above for the last example.

Carsomyr said:
Yes, you said this:


...And subsequently undermined your own point with this:


Forgive me for being a bit confused when my post you quoted was about how they had nothing to with each other and shouldn't be compared, you nominally agreed...and then compared them to make your point.
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Bartelby said:
You are wrong as usual. The last point is a factual comparison. Not a legal comparison of the validity of the rules considered in their own right.
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ahh a factual comparison,,, a comparison not for comparisons-sakes or certainly anything like reifying one's point but just so we know there are two things that we are talking about and that they are completely different

"yuor honor, yes , my client may have been pullin mad pud in the park
but just the other day this very court dismissed charges against a man dealing coke in a public library
so should my guy go to prison for honking his hog while we let drug dealers walk free???
just to be clear these things have nothing to do with each other, i was just saying
i rest my case

thank you,
-thanks"
 
Carsomyr said:
ahh a factual comparison,,, a comparison not for comparisons-sakes or certainly anything like reifying one's point but just so we know there are two things that we are talking about and that they are completely different

"yuor honor, yes , my client may have been pullin mad pud in the park
but just the other day this very court dismissed charges against a man dealing coke in a public library
so should my guy go to prison for honking his hog while we let drug dealers walk free???
just to be clear these things have nothing to do with each other, i was just saying
i rest my case

thank you,
-thanks"
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:D:D:D
Is this a factual story?;)
 
You may think you are in a court of law, bizzarely enough, but the rest of us were watching a tennis match.

Carsomyr said:
"yuor honor, yes , my client may have been pullin mad pud in the park
but just the other day this very court dismissed charges against a man dealing coke in a public library
so should my guy go to prison for honking his hog while we let drug dealers walk free???
just to be clear these things have nothing to do with each other, i was just saying
i rest my case
Click to expand...
 
Under current rules I start to play, tweak my knee, MTO get it taped.
Next round knee taped as it was last round, start match make a move and tape job fails.
Change in status, needs a tighter taping new condition MTO.
Since you only get 1 per match/injury how is it a problem under the current rules?
With the amount of injuries, the tour might want to err on the side of caution.
 
Ace007 said:
Even Nadal doesn't take time outs for change of clothes lol

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the lack of privacy awarded to these world class athletes is insane. there's no dugout, nowhere to compose yourself if you need to (think Cilic at Wimbledon).

how hard would it be to give them a semi private area where they can change, have quick sessions with a trainer or coach?
 
He was famously refused a time-out once, and he does indeed always ask for one.

I have no problems with a five minute break after the second set, or a ten minute break after the third in a five set match.

But they actually got rid of the latter some time ago.

Ace007 said:
Even Nadal doesn't take time outs for change of clothes lol

Click to expand...
 
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