Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by OTMPut, Jun 13, 2012.
Leave the man alone, pse.
I just read that a moment ago, just leave him alone, it has been a good many years now, his stories are in the past, and yet they are still pursuing it.
The evidence is mounting and I don't think there's ever been the meticulous investigation needed given the many ways these drugs can be masked.
Pretty much every top pro cyclist is doping. There is a negative 2 million % chance that Lance was clean. And that's being generous.
Let's put it this way: you're riding 100 miles a day every day for three straight weeks (2,200 miles) averaging 28 mph ON A BICYCLE FOR THE ENTIRE RACE. And they have several races like this on the pro tour, such as the Giro d' Italia.
This includes time trials where you can't draft anyone, and includes mountains so steep a normal person couldn't walk up them for any period of time.
At this point, there has to be legitimate discussion of legalizing PED's. It's happening in MMA with Testosterone Replacement Therapy already.
It's because he's guilty. You don't stop being guilty of a crime after a certain amount of time.
there is a pile of evidence out there that points to his culpability with illegal substances. he can run. but he can't hide. apparently.
Why should we leave Fraudstrong alone? The man has conned people out of millions through his corporate enterprise, Livestrong. Then there's the fact that he has broken the law...
Why leave him alone? He is cheating scum
I'm not sure I understand that statement. Are you saying the Justice Department's two year investigation wasn't meticulous?
I agree the drugs can be masked - more correctly: not enough labs are testing completely - but I'd think the the LA Attorney's Office - traveling to France, Spain, and multiple US States was pretty meticulous along the way.
Justice Departments work within narrow frames of reference.
USDA has a wider remit and is the apprpopriate body to invstigate irregularities in sport, not breaches of criminal law:
'The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, which also has been investigating doping allegations against Armstrong and professional cycling, released a statement Friday saying its probe would remain open.
“Unlike the U.S. Attorney, USADA’s job is to protect clean sport rather than enforce specific criminal laws,” USADA chief executive Travis Tygart said. “Our investigation into doping in the sport of cycling is continuing and we look forward to obtaining the information developed during the federal investigation.”
It is unclear whether federal investigators will hand over material obtained in the case, though there is some precedent for doing so. A spokesman in the Los Angeles office declined to comment.'
The letter from the USDA:
The letter specifically alleges that “multiple riders with firsthand knowledge” will testify that Armstrong used EPO — shorthand for erythropoietin, an endurance-boosting drug — blood transfusions, testosterone and masking agents, and that he distributed and administered drugs to other cyclists from 1998 to 2005. The letter alleges that numerous witnesses will testify that Armstrong also used human growth hormone before 1996.
Just legalize the PED's already!!!
They can't legalise PED's because the whole edifice of sport is based on rather moralising premises about human performance that drug use would simply shatter.
By that logic, the Feds, the USDA, et al. are going to spend a hell of a lot of time (and money) investigating men who ride bicycles for sport. But let's make the wild assumption that these investigations are resources well spent, don't you think they should go after "cheating scum" that they would have an easier time pinning a case on?
Basically everyone who's ever come out against him or claimed they knew about his/his team's PED use has been subjected to a concerted PR campaign to discredit them or their organisation by Armstrong.
It's likely Armstrong is one of the worst drugs cheat in the history of sport - if not the worst. Cyclists basically can't even compete at the highest level if they're clean - human physiology wont allow the sort of freak athlete people think Armstrong is. Everyone involved in top level cycling knows this, everyone who has retired from it knows this, everyone who is an expert in physiology or blood-work knows it - the only people who don't "know" it are those still doing it or outsiders who only get to hear the odd tidbit from the news - which are usually dominated by the quotable Armstrong muddying the waters by claiming the French hate him or so-and-so has a vendetta against him. The media love it, they lap it up and the average Joe reads the article and sees Armstrong's denial - almost always mentioned near/alongside his work for Cancer - and it seems somehow believable.
The problem he faces if this continues are his PR machine has been so strong on denials and attacks on others for so long they simply can never back down from it now.
If Lance doped, and I don't concede that he did, everyone else did so too.
So Lance Armstrong either doped and steamrolled the rest of the dopers for 7 years, or he was clean and steamrolled a doped field for 7 years.
I know its tough to convict them, but the sports cant still ban them even if a court of law cant find them guilty. If there was a lifetime ban for a first time failed test, I think it would deter most athletes.
Everyone else did to? Thats your defense for Lance? How do you know everyone else did to if youre wanting to give Lance the benefit of the doubt?
A number of prominent cyclists that he beat, such as Ullrich (got 2nd to Lance 3 times) and Basso, have actually failed drug tests and gotten doping bans.
So, doping or not, we know he was beating top-level guys who were definitely doping.
I am not argueing that. I know a lot were cheating but ban them all so a guy who isnt cheating can actually get credit for his accomplishment instead of letting a guy become a false hero by winning 6 or 7 times
If you don't know what you're talking about then please do not post.
They have found that certain parameters from his blood in 2009 and 2010 were consistent with that of doping and EPO use. Not to mention the "tested 500 times" defense means absolutely nothing.
It amazes me how many people try to deflect around Lances cheating. Americans hated the Russians and East German Olympians back then because we thought they were cheating and our athletes were clean yet now our American athletes cheat as much if not more than anyones on the planet. Lance, Marion Jones, and almost every MVP in baseball for 15-20 years cheated and for some reason people just want to legalize the PEDs instead of punishing the cheaters.
It amazes me how you make unsupported claims.
I wasnt talking about you. Its a fact that lots of people want Lance to be left alone no matter how much he cheated. Are you denying that?
I can't speak for other people.
I am talking about you. You made two claims:
1) almost every MVP in baseball for 15-20 years cheated
2) Lance cheated
#1 is ridiculous and is completely unsupported by anything at all. #2 is less ridiculous but far from proven.
I dont know what planet youve been living on if you want to argue that the MVPs from 1993-2007 werent loaded with roiders. Even the players who finished 2nd in many of those years have made comments to MLB that they should be awarded the MVP since the guy who finished ahead of them was cheating. Heres a small list of those guys most people either know cheated or have good STRONG suspicions they cheated. (Mo Vaughn, Jeff Bagwell, Juan Gonzalez 2 MVPs, Ken Caminitti, Sammy Sosa, Jason Giambi, Ivan Rodriguez, Barry Bonds 4 tainted MVPs, Miguel Tejada, Alex Rodriguez 3 MVPs, Vlad Guerrero) Even a few years before those we had Kevin Mitchell, Ricky Henderson and Jose Canseco. Canseco brought roids into the game for a lot of players and listed almost everyone of these guys as cheaters and hes been right everytime hes outed someone.
Its called the STEROID era for a reason
It seems to me that you're the one who don't know what you're talking about!
Test results can be very arbitrary. This allegation brings up many questions. Why only 09-10 when Lance was already winning consecutively many years prior to that? This suggests that they do have a lousy, unreliable testing system in place or if not, Lance really had what it took to be a champion (i'm not saying he's 100% clean but he's way acceptably clean within the culture of pro cycling.)
It's also very weird and backward that officials conduct testing and ruling this way. Race results have long been in and over. Their claimed mission is to prevent cheaters. In 5-7 years (the time Lance was winning) they couldn't come up with anything to stop Lance, if he was cheating, why now? If anything they're embarrassing the sport they're associated with. Their sport's champion is a cheater, the title goes to the runner-up, and who knows in 10, 20 years from now one day somehow they'll come up with test "parameters" and say even the runner-up is also a cheater. All the while cycling championship is tainted and full of doubts!!!!
I think there should be a limit to harassment. If the Justice Dept could not find anything, it should end there. I hope a lawsuit is filed and judge asked to intervene and stop this nonsense.
If he has been doping, it should have been up to the enforcers to have proved it by now. If they could not, they have to give up. Unfortunately, the double jeopardy clause in the constitution only pertains to criminal prosecutions and this seems to violate the spirit of it, even if it is legal.
Stop trolling this thread.
Watch your mouth when you address me in the future volleygirl.
Thing whole argument about 500 tests etc is facetious. Everyone in the business knows the best get the best access to the latest concoctions or methodology for taking PEDs. That's why the top guys rarely ever get caught.
Even when Ben Johnson was caught in 1988 it was a surprise what he got caught for by many - since it was one of the easier detectable drugs out there. Since then drugs came along which were, for ages, undetectable by whatever the current test was. And the efforts companies go to to develop new formulas and pair up with the top athletes is well evident (BALCO etc). For cycling the avenue for gains to be made are on par with swimming and ahead of most athletics disciplines so there is little doubt there are many companies around the world constantly trying to pick talents and approach them with offers of sporting immortality.
To think this process hasn't continued with the best guys keeping a step ahead of the testing regime is naive. Armstrong knows this so his attacks have focussed on the testing organisation specifically to make it look as if their collection, labelling, storage etc for all these years has been unreliable - so as to give him a nicely framed defence when newer tests are made to re-test old samples, which is what is on the cards here.
We will see experts who will claim that long storage can cause levels of certain chemicals to become greater, that darkness or light can also do the same. That the glue used to hold the labels on was notoriously un-sticky, that someone involved in the process went to school 40 years ago with a French rider Armstrong beat at some stage.... etc. His PR machine is in top gear with the one purpose: to make everything you read look murky/shady/unreliable - because he knows massive public opinion support is something he cannot live without.
If his fortress starts to get a few cracks in it it'll come down in a heap pretty quickly. But, still, he will have tons of supporters regardless.
Whatever. You still have to ride and win Tour de France. It is not that you can get an injection and you are handed the trophy seven times.
He is still (and will be) regarded as an extraordinary athelete. It is an incredible feat to come out of chemotherapy and win that race.
Lance is not cycling's champion. There's more to cycling then just winning the Tour. Heck, there's actually THREE Grand Tours in cycling.
Also go read about Lances samples from 2001 Tour de Suisse that were swept under the rug.
The Justice Department has too limited a legal remit to investigate these things; and double jeopardy couldn't possibly apply because it applies only to a trials and there's been none.
The incident with Simeoni in particular disgusts me. That's when I got an idea of the real Lance.
Ur that touchy? I just wont respond to anything you say no matter what it is then.
The problem with legalizing PEDs and allowing them all to use it, is that most of them will still push the boundaries trying to come up with better and most effective PEDs. If they all use EPO freely, someone will come up with something better, and that "·$% is probably gonna kill a lot of cyclists.
That is why a judge needs to step in. This seems to be one of the cases where the government is involved (the USADA is kind of quasi government). With deep pockets, they can make anyone's life miserable and can make people think anything about a person.
I remember the Ramsey case and how many times it was investigated, till everyone in the country believed they were guilty - till it was proven wrong. There should be a law against excessive harassment, especially for minor things like this (sports). Who cares if he was doping or not? It is a very thin case even to call it a crime, let alone investigate like this as if he has killed someone.
Lance Is A Dope!!
how can you not love this charming doped bully ?
I read the article. Are you referring to a deeper back-story not discussed in the article? Armstrong was talking trash to a guy who couldn't whip him on the road so he tried to take care of him in the courts. None of these guys are angels, so I don't find anything "particularly disgusting" about Armstrong's actions.
What's not to understand?
"Filippo Simeoni was involved in his own notorious spat with Armstrong at the 2004 Tour de France. Two years earlier, Simeoni had testified before an Italian magistrate that doctor Michele Ferrari had advised him to use EPO and testosterone in 1997, a claim that prompted Armstrong to brand Simeoni an “absolute liar” in an interview with Le Monde in 2003. The following year at the Tour, Armstrong thwarted Simeoni’s breakaway attempts and allegedly threatened to “destroy” the Italian in a mid-race exchange on stage 18."
Lance purposely ruined Simeoni's chances at a stage victory out of the breakaway. Lance had no business going into the break other than to force the peleton to pull back Simeoni.
Regardless, it only applies to cases which were pursued, not just investigations.
There is no "spirit of double jeopardy" - it's clear what is and isn't covered. Regardless, ever sport is well within its rights to lay down the criteria by which people are allowed to compete. If they choose not to they can be taken to task over it regardless of whatever criminal activities have or haven't occurred (or can/can't be proven). Criminal statute of limitations are irrelevant also with regards to a sporting body's own set of rules.
I'm looking at this through the perspective that we are talking about professional cyclists and not Boy Scouts. It appears this proven doper, Simeoni, had not won a single Tour de France stage prior to, or since, the 2004 Tour incident. Who does he blame for that? Anyhow, what obligation does Armstrong have to let this guy win a stage, especially since there were issues between the two? I still don't see what is "particularly disgusting" about what Armstrong did but then again, I'm not a cycling enthusiast, so I'll take your word for it.
Bodies usually don't pursue cases for which there is no evidence.
Cycling is a sport with tradition. One thing common among riders is that the leader of a stage race NEVER should go for a stage win if there are other, minor riders to win the stage. The yellow jersey (at TDF) shouldn't hunt down escapees. It's simply a no-go.
Look at other great champions, like Indurain or Lemond. They just never did such things.
Armstrong wasn't a patron to the Tour, he was a bully.
His behaviour during those TDF-wins might now result in merciless actions from the press and all the others.
Thanks. I suspected Armstrong's actions ran afoul of TdF custom. It's not like the action was completely unprovoked, though. Also, in a vengeful act, Simeoni attempted (unsuccessfully) to upstage Armstrong on the final, ceremonial stage of the TdF.
Not only TdF custom. It's the same at all stage races.
For example, 2 riders successfully escape, one of them could take the lead. So it is good custom that the other rider will win the stage, so that both have their share. One gets the leader's jersey, the other one the stage win. So it was for more than 100 years, and I hope it'll stay like that another century.
Whenever a rider doesn't follow these "rules", he can be sure that he'll not make it for "employee of the month" :wink:
But the sports stuff eventually leads to a criminal case. That is the issue. I don't see why violations in sports should lead to criminal cases.
Separate names with a comma.