Laver and the Grand Slam (1969)

NonP

Legend
Now that Mendelssohn has entered the picture, I should point out that my first listening of Perahia was a recording in 1977, the Mendelssohn concertos with

Sir Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, the same great conductor who rediscovered Yeol Eum Son of South Korea in 2016 and made

his last ever recording with her, also with ASMF, and her first major label album. The music world is a small place.

Here is some very beautiful Mendelssohn from Yeol Eum Son, a live concert of the Mendelssohn 1st concerto, brilliantly and beautifully played with the

Slovenia Symphony last year. My own piano professor was/is Slovenian, and I learned this concerto with her in the early 1970's.

Hope this link works, yes, it does. The encore is another Mendelssohn "Song Without Words".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00070rq

I don't care for any of Felix's concertos. Much of his oeuvre like Wolfgang's strikes me as a tad too polished and polite - pleasant to listen to but little more. Dig his piano trios much more (which I'm sure you've forgotten, cuz you never listen to anyone on anything except when it serves your narrow interests).

Speaking of which/whom....

It didn't take long, here is the the most gracious and sparkling Mozart player of them all from Tuesday at the Royal Albert Hall for the BBC Proms.


I guarantee you that if I fed you some random Mozart performance by a nameless yet talented conservatory student and asked you to guess its origin you'd fail the test just about every single time. Wolfgang is one of those composers whose music more or less plays itself as long as you let it, and the fact that you pretend to recognize "the most gracious and sparkling Mozart player of them all" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary shows how much full of crap you really are.

Of course his unfinished Requiem is one of the (stupendous) exceptions to this rule, one that allows for the widest array of approaches and interpretations. Here's one of the more convincing ones:

 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
I don't care for any of Felix's concertos. Much of his oeuvre like Wolfgang's strikes me as a tad too polished and polite - pleasant to listen to but little more. Dig his piano trios much more (which I'm sure you've forgotten, cuz you never listen to anyone on anything except when it serves your narrow interests).

Speaking of which/whom....



I guarantee you that if I fed you some random Mozart performance by a nameless yet talented conservatory student and asked you to guess its origin you'd fail the test just about every single time. Wolfgang is one of those composers whose music more or less plays itself as long as you let it, and the fact that you pretend to recognize "the most gracious and sparkling Mozart player of them all" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary shows how much full of crap you really are.

Of course his unfinished Requiem is one of the (stupendous) exceptions to this rule, one that allows for the widest array of approaches and interpretations. Here's one of the more convincing ones:

No, I love the Mendelssohn trios perhaps the most of Mendelssohn's chamber music, they are serious works, the wonderful chorale at the climax of the second trio is a great moment in music.

If that Mendelssohn concerto performance failed to impress, you are missing the essence of Mendelssohn style. There is a stormy emotional core to that first Mendelssohn piano concerto, well realized here.

You like Perahia in Mendelssohn but not other pianists? Well, each to his own.

And Mozart is not a lightweight composer, you can actually hear the contrapuntal aspects of his piano concertos whenever THIS Korean pianist plays, not so for some other famous pianists....you need to listen for it. Check the 3:35 point above, where you can hear the contrapuntal section clearly, not with other pianists, only Gould in the #24 presented a complete two-handed account of a Mozart concerto.

This is not the weak, timid, prettified Mozart which we normally hear from famous pianists (that's right, from FAMOUS pianists), not with this Korean pianist, only the clear, full-toned, full-bodied unvarnished truth. And a visual presentation which puts the male Mozart pianists in the shade. She will be playing the Beethoven Emperor Concerto with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic next January. Can't wait.

You like incomplete, incorrectly finished Mozart? Parallel fifths in the Sussmayr completion? That awkward trombone solo? The Requiem was obviously not completed with the skill of a Mozart, but if you like contemplating the next world and judgment day, go ahead.

Ah, the Levin...Levin is not Mozart, and I actually prefer Sussmayr, as being closer to the source. The Levin is an interesting exercise, but Sussmayr was given the directions on how to complete by Mozart himself. The Levin is Levin.
 
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NonP

Legend
No, I love the Mendelssohn trios perhaps the most of Mendelssohn's chamber music, they are serious works, the wonderful chorale at the climax of the second trio is a great moment in music.

If that Mendelssohn concerto performance failed to impress, you are missing the essence of Mendelssohn style. There is a stormy emotional core to that first Mendelssohn piano concerto, well realized here.

You like Perahia in Mendelssohn but not other pianists? Well, each to his own.

And Mozart is not a lightweight composer, you can actually hear the contrapuntal aspects of his piano concertos whenever THIS Korean pianist plays, not so for some other famous pianists....you need to listen for it. Check the 3:35 point above, where you can hear the contrapuntal section clearly, not with other pianists, only Gould in the #24 presented a complete two-handed account of a Mozart concerto.

There is no weak, timid, prettified Mozart with this Korean pianist, only the clear, full-toned, full-bodied unvarnished truth. She will be playing the Beethoven Emperor Concerto with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic next January. Can't wait.

You like incomplete, incorrectly finished Mozart? Parallel fifths in the Sussmayr completion? That awkward trombone solo? The Requiem was obviously not completed with the skill of a Mozart, but if you like contemplating the next world and judgment day, go ahead.

Ah, the Levin...Levin is not Mozart, and I actually prefer Sussmayr, as being closer to the source. The Levin is an interesting exercise, but Sussmayr was given the directions on how to complete by Mozart himself. The Levin is Levin.

Don't you ever get tired of putting words in people's mouths? I never said I like Mendelssohn performed by Perahia only. I said I don't like any of the Mendelssohn concertos period. Even you should be able to tell the difference.

If I'm missing the "essence of [the] Mendelssohn style" (whatever that means) at least I know I'm in good company as none other than Donald Tovey once famously dismissed him as a "spoiled genius." Think I'll go with Tovey than with a self-absorbed armchair critic like you, thanks.

And we know you're talking out of your ass again when you refer to any version of the Mozart Requiem as "closer to the source." Sussmayr wasn't even the first one to be tasked with the work's completion, and no serious Mozart scholar would argue that his version clearly involves less speculation than Levin's or pretty much any other popular one. You may have a degree in piano but you're not fooling any remotely knowledgeable classical buff with your amateur musicology.
 

NonP

Legend
The three Mendelssohn piano concertos are grossly under-rated, the first is very convincing, emotional, stormy, dreamy...inspired. A companion work to the Hebrides Overture, which even Wagner admired. Wagner was not an armchair critic.

Sussmayr consulted with Mozart on his deathbed and received personal instructions. No, some scholars prefer Sussmayr, because Levin gives us a lot of Levin, in the completion of the "Amen" fugue, although Sussmayr lacked the skill to finish the Requiem without parallel fifths, and that awkward trombone solo. That trombone solo was pointed out to me personally in private conversation by the foremost Mozart scholar of our era, Dr. Philip Downs, so who are you suggesting as a better authority? There is none.

The Levin version is less radical than the Maunder, which excleds much of the Sussmayr. Levin is interesting.

You are under-read on this, although I hope that you get a revealing glimpse of the events to come with the Mozart Requiem.

Levin's chief contribution is the "Amen" fugue, and here is the Mozart sketch which he left at his death, followed by five different attempts to complete it, including the Levin.
Sussmayr, a limited composer, apparently made no attempt to complete it.


Heh, you can keep playing the internet warrior but you're the one that needs to hit the books, not me. It's far from accepted as fact among scholars that Sussmayr consulted with Mozart on his deathbed, and Alfred Einstein of all people dismissed these "personal instructions" for Sussmayr except for the Benedictus which he felt was the only completed movement that came close to honoring the master's intentions. And you're grasping for straws by referring to the trombone solo when it's not at all germane to the discussion. Again stop trying to fool anyone with your faux sophistication. Some of us actually know what they're talking about.

And FYI Mendelsohn wrote four piano concertos, not three (arguably six if you include his youthful essays for two pianos). Never said anything about their worth (though I should add that it's hard to gauge a work's general reception when it's not part of the standard repertoire), only that I don't care for them. I don't care for much of Joyce's oeuvre as well but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge its innovation and influence. If you wanna stick up for Felix's relatively obscure piano concertos that's fine by me as the stuffy classical scene could surely use some fresh air. Just don't try to sell me on his Violin Concerto which to me is nothing more than pleasant treacle.
 

NonP

Legend
You really need to rework your mind-reading calibration....I have been to Seoul three times in the past eight years, I heard Myung Wha Chung conduct the Mahler Sixth with the Seoul Philharmonic. I know some star Korean musicians and have worked with them on some projects.

Son has had zero plastic work, as far as I can see. She is a dedicated Christian with her values well defined. While she received stardom in her native Korea and in Russia due to her success in the 2011 Tchaikovsky Competition, she did not break through in European stardom until Sir Neville Marriner (teacher of my teacher) rediscovered her in 2016 and made that classic CD of Mozart 21. Now she is getting debuts with top orchestras in Europe, hopefully soon in North America.

Yawn, why am I not in the least surprised that you'd highlight her faith with respect to plastic surgery. I'm sure you can produce even a smidgen of evidence showing the (inverse) link when called upon.

Son made her DC debut at The Phillips Collection with a varied program last year (missed it - tix to their cliquish Sunday Concerts sell out fast) but yeah don't think I've seen her scheduled to perform at the Kennedy Center or any of the big venues yet. Maybe my pluperfect Korean will come in handy when I ask her for an autograph in person!
 

NonP

Legend
If you get her autograph before I do, I will be purple with jealousy.

Yeah, the North American orchestras have missed the boat with her, they are so slow, or maybe there is "clubism" with the old boys. Her Christian faith is not a selling point in the commercial world. She is not a commercial product yet, like so many young stars.

Got a feeling she'll be generous with her time on her 1st visit to the Center, so chances are I'll get her love letter before you do!

At least here in the US it doesn't help that orchestras left and right are suffering major cuts as the audience continues to get older and by marketing standards less lucrative. Dunno if you've heard about the Baltimore Symphony's recent woes but they're sadly part of a nationwide trend:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/arts/music/baltimore-symphony-orchestra-lockout.html
 

NonP

Legend
Yeah, but not so up in Canada, most of the orchestras here get substantial government funding, an idea foreign to American principles.

But they will survive, the Cleveland Orchestra has been on the death-watch list for some time, but it still keeps chugging along in fine style.

I want the bands not just to survive but to thrive, and that's hard to pull off when you must rely on the largesse and/or vanity of a few filthy-rich individuals.

Here is a duo playing a Christian theme song a few months ago, this young violinist recently committed to Christ, and played this on Korean television with a well-known accompanist.


That kind of domesticated "Amazing Grace" doesn't do much for me. For years I'd been trying to locate the most powerful version of the beloved hymn I'd ever heard - Sinead O'Connor's soul-baring solo scorcher coming at the end of her Behind the Music episode (yes, for real) - and now I've found it (starts around the 42:12 mark, if the time stamp doesn't work):


Can't say it's as transcendent a performance as I remember, but glad to finally hear it after all these years.

You guys just need to argue over sailing and cigars, then we'll have reached Peak White Guy.

Peak Black Girl Power!

 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
You hit the jackpot there with Aretha Franklin, she was the favourite singer of Rod Laver (remember him, the subject of this thread?), and of course a great gospel singer.

Sorry you didn't like Yeol Eum Son in the gospel number, she is a devout believer, which makes the performance a genuine personal statement.

Her lifestyle is a living testament to her faith, she is music director of an annual music festival in Korea, and last year she directed a dramatic presentation of Schubert's "Wintereisse", which made a bold statement about the risks of STD's, which, according to many music historians, apparently was Schubert's undoing.
Notice the large number of young people in the audience.

 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
I think this is the best thread I ever initiated.
Who would have thought that by invoking Laver I would end up listening to some great classical music pieces.
Love Perahia, by the way, saw him once live in London.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Yawn, why am I not in the least surprised that you'd highlight her faith with respect to plastic surgery. I'm sure you can produce even a smidgen of evidence showing the (inverse) link when called upon.

Son made her DC debut at The Phillips Collection with a varied program last year (missed it - tix to their cliquish Sunday Concerts sell out fast) but yeah don't think I've seen her scheduled to perform at the Kennedy Center or any of the big venues yet. Maybe my pluperfect Korean will come in handy when I ask her for an autograph in person!
You missed her, NonP, she appeared with the Washington Chamber Orchestra on September 30, 2018.

Here it is, you need to listen carefully with the distant mike placement, it's fine for me if I turn up the volume, but a remarkable performance of the Chopin

Second Concerto.

She enters just before the 55:00 point. She played this as a benefit performance for the orchestra, donating her soloist fee to this group of players....nice person.

During the brilliant encore, a favourite of Horowitz by Moszkowski, there is a good camera close-up. This looks like an authorized, in-house recording.

https:www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQgJ3NA055E
 
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NonP

Legend
You hit the jackpot there with Aretha Franklin, she was the favourite singer of Rod Laver (remember him, the subject of this thread?), and of course a great gospel singer.

Sorry you didn't like Yeol Eum Son in the gospel number, she is a devout believer, which makes the performance a genuine personal statement.

Her lifestyle is a living testament to her faith, she is music director of an annual music festival in Korea, and last year she directed a dramatic presentation of Schubert's "Wintereisse", which made a bold statement about the risks of STD's, which, according to many music historians, apparently was Schubert's undoing.
Notice the large number of young people in the audience.


A concert film with restored footage of said famous concert was released earlier this year. Guess what the title was:


I don't question Son's sincerity, just don't like overly polished readings of what is supposed to be a warts-and-all gospel hymn. Walk into any black church in America and chances are you'll hear an "Amazing Grace" that blows Son and her partner's out of the water in sheer elemental force and intensity.

Her Wintereisse OTOH sounds better (I'm about halfway through now), though I wouldn't read too much into the number of young 'uns in attendance (Son I'm sure is a genre-crossing star in SK).

I think this is the best thread I ever initiated.
Who would have thought that by invoking Laver I would end up listening to some great classical music pieces.
Love Perahia, by the way, saw him once live in London.

Glad our hijacking didn't bother you at all! And yes, Perahia is without question one of the greatest pianists alive. I've seen him live about 3-4 times by now, the last time in a mighty Hammerklavier that even Pollini would be hard-pressed to match. (Last saw the venerable Italian in a mostly all-Chopin recital and he looked and sounded almost bored much of the nite.) I've heard about Murray's less-than-perfect technique outside the editing room of a recording studio but I can definitely say such accounts aren't supported in the least by my own experience.

You missed her, NonP, she appeared with the Washington Chamber Orchestra on September 30, 2018.

Here it is, you need to listen carefully with the distant mike placement, it's fine for me if I turn up the volume, but a remarkable performance of the Chopin

Second Concerto.

She enters just before the 55:00 point. She played this as a benefit performance for the orchestra, donating her soloist fee to this group of players....nice person.

During the brilliant encore, a favourite of Horowitz by Moszkowski, there is a good camera close-up. This looks like an authorized, in-house recording.


The WCO seems to be a motley crew of talented freelancers and the DC area has at least four of 'em (including the National Philharmonic, which is now set to disband following financial woes). It's practically impossible for a working professional like to me to support them all.

Its director is Korean and he brought on a young Korean hotshot to play to a mostly Korean(-American) audience. Wish I could be more enthusiastic but I doubt they get such crowds every time. Still it's nice of her to donate her time and money.

Never cared for the Moszkowski. Given her audience Son should've settled for an "Arirang" fantasy instead!


(Wasn't able to locate a good version for solo piano. In the ones up on YT the original theme is all but unrecognizable.)
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
A concert film with restored footage of said famous concert was released earlier this year. Guess what the title was:

https:www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkKOIQwTiKE

I don't question Son's sincerity, just don't like overly polished readings of what is supposed to be a warts-and-all gospel hymn. Walk into any black church in America and chances are you'll hear an "Amazing Grace" that blows Son and her partner's out of the water in sheer elemental force and intensity.

Her Wintereisse OTOH sounds better (I'm about halfway through now), though I wouldn't read too much into the number of young 'uns in attendance (Son I'm sure is a genre-crossing star in SK).



Glad our hijacking didn't bother you at all! And yes, Perahia is without question one of the greatest pianists alive. I've seen him live about 3-4 times by now, the last time in a mighty Hammerklavier that even Pollini would be hard-pressed to match. (Last saw the venerable Italian in a mostly all-Chopin recital and he looked and sounded almost bored much of the nite.) I've heard about Murray's less-than-perfect technique outside the editing room of a recording studio but I can definitely say such accounts aren't supported in the least by my own experience.



The WCO seems to be a motley crew of talented freelancers and the DC area has at least four of 'em (including the National Philharmonic, which is now set to disband following financial woes). It's practically impossible for a working professional like to me to support them all.

Its director is Korean and he brought on a young Korean hotshot to play to a mostly Korean(-American) audience. Wish I could be more enthusiastic but I doubt they get such crowds every time. Still it's nice of her to donate her time and money.

Never cared for the Moszkowski. Given her audience Son should've settled for an "Arirang" fantasy instead!

https:www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfXwAzWi0io

(Wasn't able to locate a good version for solo piano. In the ones up on YT the original theme is all but unrecognizable.)
Yes, Seongjin Cho, the other famous Korean pianist, also played with Washington Chamber Orchestra, but not for free, I believe.....he is now a big star, plays with Berlin Phil, London Symphony, Philadelphia Orchestra, the big time.

https:www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWFR9joxbpc


Son is regarded as the "angel" of Korean performers. She should be heard with the big orchestras going forward, if there is any justice.
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Here is where Mozart and Beethoven intersect, Beethoven's setting of a famous aria from Mozart's "Magic Flute" for cello and piano.

Beethoven met Mozart when he visited Vienna at age 16, and Mozart agreed to teach him when Beethoven reached maturity. At age 21, Beethoven traveled to

Vienna again, but Mozart had died before Beethoven arrived, and Beethoven studied instead with Haydn. A world of giants.

Here is cellist Young Song and pianist Yeol Eum Son a few months ago, not in Vienna but in Korea (the new Vienna?)

 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Glad our hijacking didn't bother you at all! And yes, Perahia is without question one of the greatest pianists alive. I've seen him live about 3-4 times by now, the last time in a mighty Hammerklavier that even Pollini would be hard-pressed to match. (Last saw the venerable Italian in a mostly all-Chopin recital and he looked and sounded almost bored much of the nite.) I've heard about Murray's less-than-perfect technique outside the editing room of a recording studio but I can definitely say such accounts aren't supported in the least by my own experience.
Did someone say "Hammerklavier"? As in Beethoven?
Here is a pianist who does it justice, especially in the fugue. A live performance, I am still looking for any errors in the playing.
Pianists are tempted to use the pedal in this work to disguise technical errors...not here, almost no pedal work at all, very authentic.
Notice the prayer before playing. She has claimed that this is her favourite work.

 
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DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Everyone thinks grass is grass is grass. Not true.

The differences between Wimbledon grass and USO grass in 1969 were greater than the USO and AO surfaces today.
One was slick, fast, and worn; the other was mushy, soggy, and soft.

do you see similarities between that grass that was played in Australia and the current Wimbledon?
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
I don't care for any of Felix's concertos. Much of his oeuvre like Wolfgang's strikes me as a tad too polished and polite - pleasant to listen to but little more. Dig his piano trios much more (which I'm sure you've forgotten, cuz you never listen to anyone on anything except when it serves your narrow interests).

Speaking of which/whom....



I guarantee you that if I fed you some random Mozart performance by a nameless yet talented conservatory student and asked you to guess its origin you'd fail the test just about every single time. Wolfgang is one of those composers whose music more or less plays itself as long as you let it, and the fact that you pretend to recognize "the most gracious and sparkling Mozart player of them all" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary shows how much full of crap you really are.

Of course his unfinished Requiem is one of the (stupendous) exceptions to this rule, one that allows for the widest array of approaches and interpretations. Here's one of the more convincing ones:

Here is an actual liturgical performance of the Mozart Requiem from the 1990's, Solti and Arleen Auger (her final performance) in top form with the Vienna Philharmonic and company.

This is real, with clergy part of it.

 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
In my opinion total Slam count has to be much more important than CYGS. The first can really rank the greatest of all time while the second would be the greatest of one single year.

Of course we must put things into perspective and somehow adjust the numbers for the years splitted between Pros and Amateurs. Sampras (despite allegedly having Laver as his idol) was extremely ignorant and only communicated chasing Emerson’s "record" of 12 official Slams.

But still, as great as Laver was, we cannot assume he would ever win 20 open Slams like Federer. In reality he won 6 Amateur Slams, 8 of 15 Pro Slams from 1963 to 1967 and 5 Open Era Slams.

Before 1964 he never was really the best player in the world despite his 1962 Amateur CYGS. Because when he turned pro in 1963, the season was still totally dominated by Rosewall who won all 3 Pro Slams. So we are very generous to Laver if we assume until 1963 he would have maybe won some 2-3 Open Slams.

In total Laver won 8 of 15 Pro Slams in 1963-1967 (the other 7 were won by Rosewall). So if we assume Laver missed 21 hypothetical "Open Slams" from 1963 to 1968 AO, it would have been 11 titles by extrapolation IF only the Pro tour mattered. But that was not the case, because someone like Emerson wasn’t a joke and could have beaten Laver occasionally. On top of that we have 1 or 2 typical early exits in a hypothetical field of 128 (compared to 8 in Pro Slams), and we could very well assume he wouldn’t have won more than 8 Slams during that years in Open play.

Then on top of that come his 5 actual Open Era Slams, so we arrive at 16 at the maximum. And as I explained, that is still generous.

No, IMO Federer is clearly ahead of Laver. And remember, he only lost the CYGS twice because of playing in the same era with the greatest single-surface-player in the history of tennis. He would have easily won 2 or more CYGS in another era.

But nevertheless, big respect to Laver anyway. And by the way, does someone have a video of the 1969 Australian Open final? It’s the only Laver 1969 Slam final I never saw.
Of course, it could be the other way around, the field may have been deeper in the sixties than at present, and with only three contenders today, it is easier to win a slam now.
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Recency bias has made the Grand Slam (once hailed as the greatest achievement in the sport; and I still think it is) almost non-existent in debates about tennis nowadays.
Players, pundits, journalists, nobody even dares to suggest it's an important marker laid down by the legendary Laver, just because none of the current players have been able to achieve it.
When I talked to my late grandfather about tennis, he always referred to the Grand Slam as the greatest achievement in the sport, with an almost mythical status.
The greatest amount of Slams won wasn't even a discussion back then; it's a post-Sampras obsession, i.e., extremely recent.
Players just assume the Grand Slam is impossible and thus dismiss it completely.
I think it's precisely because it's "impossible" that it should be heralded and chased after.
Anyway, it's one of the reasons I'll always see Laver as the greatest of all time
That's it, the GS is downgraded today because no one can achieve it now. Laver could win on any surface, but not the top people today.
 

thrust

Legend
That's it, the GS is downgraded today because no one can achieve it now. Laver could win on any surface, but not the top people today.
No doubt Laver could win on any surface, but he did not have to play peak Nadal at RG. Laver won his 69 FO beating 34 YO Rosewall, Nadal had to beat peak Federer and Novak to win many of his FO titles. Still Laver's 69 CYGS is one of the greatest achievements in tennis history. But then, so was the Nole Slam.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
No doubt Laver could win on any surface, but he did not have to play peak Nadal at RG. Laver won his 69 FO beating 34 YO Rosewall, Nadal had to beat peak Federer and Novak to win many of his FO titles. Still Laver's 69 CYGS is one of the greatest achievements in tennis history. But then, so was the Nole Slam.
There was more depth in 1969.....none of the big three today has come close to a GS....Djokovic did not do it in a calendar year, which makes a huge difference.
 

xFedal

Legend
There was more depth in 1969.....none of the big three today has come close to a GS....Djokovic did not do it in a calendar year, which makes a huge difference.
Dan whats your dream match up? We know PEAK HOAD> PEAK LAVER AND PEAK GONZALEZ but I would like to know your dream match up......PEAK HOAD vs Federer or Sampras?
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan whats your dream match up? We know PEAK HOAD> PEAK LAVER AND PEAK GONZALEZ but I would like to know your dream match up......PEAK HOAD vs Federer or Sampras?
Well, Laver's dream match-up was Federer/Hoad. I would take that, although I think that Hoad/Gonzales was right up there about the same level.

You would need the same technology for racquets, or maybe some matches with each era technology.
 

xFedal

Legend
Well, Laver's dream match-up was Federer/Hoad. I would take that, although I think that Hoad/Gonzales was right up there about the same level.

You would need the same technology for racquets, or maybe some matches with each era technology.
Yh... Have you ever seen Lew Hoad play in real life? Do you have any of his matches?
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Yh... Have you ever seen Lew Hoad play in real life? Do you have any of his matches?
Never saw Hoad play, never heard of him until about 1973 or 1974.

There are lots of Hoad matches in storage which have not been released.

I attached some Hoad clips to the Wiki biography, and will add some more to the Hoad/Rosewall thread.

Some matches from the 1963 Hoad/Laver tour were televised and should be in storage.
 
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xFedal

Legend
Never saw Hoad play, never heard of him until about 1973 or 1974.

There are lots of Hoad matches in storage which have not been released.

I attached some Hoad clips to the Wiki biography, and will add some more to the Hoad/Rosewall thread.

Some matches from the 1963 Hoad/Laver tour were televised and should be in storage.
Right could you inbox me ?
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Right could you inbox me ?
I only have a few...I will list them on that Hoad/Rosewall thread.

Also the thread "1958 : The greatest year in tennis?" contains the best clip of the 1958 Australian series between Hoad and Gonzales, the first two points showing Hoad's serve-and-volley style at its best.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
I only have a few...I will list them on that Hoad/Rosewall thread.

Also the thread "1958 : The greatest year in tennis?" contains the best clip of the 1958 Australian series between Hoad and Gonzales, the first two points showing Hoad's serve-and-volley style at its best.
Here is a link to several links showing clips of Hoad in prime form.

 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
It didn't take long, here is the the most gracious and sparkling Mozart player of them all from Tuesday at the Royal Albert Hall for the BBC Proms.

https:www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2i8RDc1qpI
Here is Son performing a few years back with the Columbus (Ohio) Symphony Orchestra, and the distinguished British conductor Christopher Seaman, in the Mozart 23rd Piano Concerto.

Again, pure Mozart style, crystal clear playing, inevitable melodic phrasing.....the best there is in Mozart.


https:www.instantencore.com/music/details.aspx?PId=5058000
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
......... If you wanna stick up for Felix's relatively obscure piano concertos that's fine by me as the stuffy classical scene could surely use some fresh air. Just don't try to sell me on his Violin Concerto which to me is nothing more than pleasant treacle.
Well, the people who can sell you on Mendelssohn are those wonderful Korean musicians, like Son above with the piano concerto.

Here is a Korean violinist from Edmonton, Canada, who won the Indianapolis Violin Competition and has played the Brahms with

her hometown Edmonton Symphony, plus other concertos with the San Francisco Symphony, the Philadelphia Orchestra, the

Montreal Symphony, and many other orchestras.

I tried to persuade our orchestra board to arrange for her and her husband (a noted cellist) to play the Brahms Double concerto

with our orchestra, but it did not quite happen. Can't have everything,

 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Here are all four legs of the 1969 Laver Grand Slam, the most celebrated achievement in men's tennis.


The 1969 Forest Hills title, and a GS achievement against a tough field.


Wimbledon 1969 was the height of Laver's achievement that year of the Grand Slam.


Here was the biggest challenge of that 1969 GS season for Laver, the Australian semi.....


At the 1969 Roland Garros final, two familiar opponents met.

 
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Mainad

Bionic Poster
Receiving an award at the US Open from representatives of the 4 Grand Slams to mark the 50th anniversary of his CYGS (Calendar Year Grand Slam) the only one to be achieved so far in the open era.

AAGWuXu.img
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
1969 was my breakout year as a musician, my first public recital (and best ever for me), playing a Haydn sonata, and learned the Haydn D major concerto.

My piano professor at Western University acclaimed my trills as the most brilliant and rapid of any student, and encouraged me to pursue a career as a

lecture/recitalist.

Here is Sir Neville Marriner conducting my concerto.....no, that is not me at the keyboard, unfortunately. I have no recording of my Haydn, just some live Bach

and Bartok, which I will try to upload, from the following year.

 
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hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Nice to see the Rocket at the USO men's singles awards ceremony last night.
(Nadal gave Rod a respectful hug when walking on stage and quietly chatting a lot with Laver, like they were old friends.)

Great respect from both.
 
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BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Players just assume the Grand Slam is impossible and thus dismiss it completely.
Not true.

Lendl publicly said at the conclusion of the Nabisco Masters in 1987, "I'm going for the grand slam next year." Fed said in November, 1986 that his stated goal was "somehow, maybe to win all 4 majors, as Rocket did." Djokovic and his team announced in December, 2018 that his 2019 goal was to win the CYGS.
 

urban

Legend
Rocket is to me still the best and greatest player, i have seen in my lifetime. Tilden is difficult to assess, but from the first half of the 20th century, he stands head and shoulders above the rest, Fed is in a timeline more years apart from Laver than Tilden, so the comparison is subjective, and Fed is under enormous pressure to stay Nr. 1 in modern times. Lavers open Grand Slam remains unique since 50 years (a full lifetime), which shows the enormity of this achievement. Even the major minded modern guys, who set multiple major records, couldn't reach this goalpost. Modest Laver says often,that the Grand Slam was luck. But in reality, Laver could do it, and all people in his time, knew he could do it. Even before the USO 1968, there was talk among players and media, that Laver would and could attack the Grand Slam in 1969.
Laver won 108-16 matches in 1969 for 18 titles. Some know, that he won 210 titles in his carrer, but one of his underrated records are this match win stats in the 1960s and early 1970s. As amateur he won over 100 matches in 1961 and 1962, in 1962 151-15 for 22 titles. After a harsh first half year as a pro in 1963 (his worst stats year in the 1960s, but he won over 80s matches nevertheless), he settled there since mid 1963. From Krosero and No Mercy i have documented numbers for the pro years, maybe there a few additions, which would be welcome. In 1964 98-38, +60 (latest count by No Mercy), 1965 100-21, +79, 1966 110-27, +83, 1967 100-29, + 71, then open years 1968 77-20, +57 (when he was injured on his eyes and later on his wrist), 1969 108-16, +92, 1970 100-21, + 79, 1971 87-18, +69. So, Laver won over 100 matches in 8 separate years (No Mercy said me, that Laver won certainly over 100 matches in 1964), and he won with a 50+ margin of win loss for 12 years.
To make a comparison: No other pro between 1964 and 1970 made plus 50 in even one year. Rosewall in his long career never made over 100 match wins in a year. In the 1950s, Gonzalez made over 100 match wins in 2 years (1954 and 1956) and plus 50 in win-loss margin 4 times. No wonder, that Tennis Base gives Laver 8 Nr. 1 year end positions and 402 weeks at Nr. 1 overall, and the ATP ranking reconstruction of Slasher has him at 187 weeks Nr. 1 in open era alone.
So it was not luck or anything, that Laver made the Grand Slam, it was the crowning moment of an illustrious career, and the top of an iceberg of achievements, which were for a long time hidden to the media and public..
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Rocket is to me still the best and greatest player, i have seen in my lifetime. Tilden is difficult to assess, but from the first half of the 20th century, he stands head and shoulders above the rest, Fed is in a timeline more years apart from Laver than Tilden, so the comparison is subjective, and Fed is under enormous pressure to stay Nr. 1 in modern times. Lavers open Grand Slam remains unique since 50 years (a full lifetime), which shows the enormity of this achievement. Even the major minded modern guys, who set multiple major records, couldn't reach this goalpost. Modest Laver says often,that the Grand Slam was luck. But in reality, Laver could do it, and all people in his time, knew he could do it. Even before the USO 1968, there was talk among players and media, that Laver would and could attack the Grand Slam in 1969.
Laver won 108-16 matches in 1969 for 18 titles. Some know, that he won 210 titles in his carrer, but one of his underrated records are this match win stats in the 1960s and early 1970s. As amateur he won over 100 matches in 1961 and 1962, in 1962 151-15 for 22 titles. After a harsh first half year as a pro in 1963 (his worst stats year in the 1960s, but he won over 80s matches nevertheless), he settled there since mid 1963. From Krosero and No Mercy i have documented numbers for the pro years, maybe there a few additions, which would be welcome. In 1964 98-38, +60 (latest count by No Mercy), 1965 100-21, +79, 1966 110-27, +83, 1967 100-29, + 71, then open years 1968 77-20, +57 (when he was injured on his eyes and later on his wrist), 1969 108-16, +92, 1970 100-21, + 79, 1971 87-18, +69. So, Laver won over 100 matches in 8 separate years (No Mercy said me, that Laver won certainly over 100 matches in 1964), and he won with a 50+ margin of win loss for 12 years.
To make a comparison: No other pro between 1964 and 1970 made plus 50 in even one year. Rosewall in his long career never made over 100 match wins in a year. In the 1950s, Gonzalez made over 100 match wins in 2 years (1954 and 1956) and plus 50 in win-loss margin 4 times. No wonder, that Tennis Base gives Laver 8 Nr. 1 year end positions and 402 weeks at Nr. 1 overall, and the ATP ranking reconstruction of Slasher has him at 187 weeks Nr. 1 in open era alone.
So it was not luck or anything, that Laver made the Grand Slam, it was the crowning moment of an illustrious career, and the top of an iceberg of achievements, which were for a long time hidden to the media and public..
There is no one even close to Laver in the 100+ wins metric. He stands alone.
 
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