Laver Cup Included in Official H2H Stats on ATP

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Perfectly valid argument if the event was run by the ATP, not active players who invite others they deem fit, by invitations. It is very fine as an exhibition where people have fun. Nothing more.
It's not going to make much difference for the time being with the current guys. I understand some being upset about the retroactive h2h, but it's not changing anything really. It's not like anyone is going to debate losses to Isner and Anderson. I posted that pic above for some comic relief. That crap doesn't matter. In the future everyone will have a clean slate imo as far as in the minds of tennis fans. If someone is worried about h2h then they shouldn't participate. Just the way I see it.
 
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Azure

Legend
It's not going to make much difference for the time being with the current guys. I understand some being upset about the retroactive h2h, but it's not changing anything really. It's not like anyone is going to debate losses to Isner and Anderson. I posted that pic above for some comic relief. That crap doesn't matter. In the future everyone will have a clean slate imo as far as in the minds of tennis fans. If someone is worried about h2h then they shouldn't participate. Just the way I see it.
I am not even debating the h2h here. I am debating any importance being accorded to it in the first place. There are several exhibitions out there that are on special invitations. Will all of them be given importance henceforth? To me Laver Cup is a fun event arranged by a great of the game, honoring another great. That is all there is to it.

I did not bother about the format but if h2h is going to be considered, I would want perfectly plausible draws. I want to see rafa-nole matches but hey its not going to happen because they belong to the same continent (absurd!!). I also want to see Tsitsipas play Thiem, but oh no, this year Tsitsipas was not invited. I don't want such scenarios.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
I am not even debating the h2h here. I am debating any importance being accorded to it in the first place. There are several exhibitions out there that are on special invitations. Will all of them be given importance henceforth? To me Laver Cup is a fun event arranged by a great of the game, honoring another great. That is all there is to it.

I did not bother about the format but if h2h is going to be considered, I would want perfectly plausible draws. I want to see rafa-nole matches but hey its not going to happen because they belong to the same continent (absurd!!). I also want to see Tsitsipas play Thiem, but oh no, this year Tsitsipas was not invited. I don't want such scenarios.
What really matters from a h2h inclusion standpoint is whether these matches were played in seriousness or not.

Rest all is just fluff - the format - hardly has relevance to h2h stat , as neither Rafa-Nole go ahead when they don't face each other.
Conflict of interest in events - assuming this to be present - why does it matter when the actual match was played as seriously or even more ?

None of the exhbitions apart from Hopman Cup are played with seriousness. (Mubadala, Boodles). So, comparing that with LC is not fair. Hopman Cup deserves inclusion in stats as well.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
I am not even debating the h2h here. I am debating any importance being accorded to it in the first place. There are several exhibitions out there that are on special invitations. Will all of them be given importance henceforth? To me Laver Cup is a fun event arranged by a great of the game, honoring another great. That is all there is to it.

I did not bother about the format but if h2h is going to be considered, I would want perfectly plausible draws. I want to see rafa-nole matches but hey its not going to happen because they belong to the same continent (absurd!!). I also want to see Tsitsipas play Thiem, but oh no, this year Tsitsipas was not invited. I don't want such scenarios.
I understand where you're coming from. Seems to me that this is an effort to pioneer something for the future generations and honor Laver. Every great event that we hold dear now I'm sure at some point had its doubters in the beginning. Same goes for a lot of things in life. I'm open to some and critical of others just like anyone else. On this, I think I see what they are trying to do. It may work and may not. We'll see.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
I understand where you're coming from. Seems to me that this is an effort to pioneer something for the future generations and honor Laver. Every great event that we hold dear now I'm sure at some point had its doubters in the beginning. Same goes for a lot of things in life. I'm open to some and critical of others just like anyone else. On this, I think I see what they are trying to do. It may work and may not. We'll see.
Every good thing in the world will have opposition and naysayers who want that to fail

I don’t think an event to honor the great will be allowed to fail
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Every good thing in the world will have opposition and naysayers who want that to fail

I don’t think an event to honor the great will be allowed to fail
Laver is getting really old and you never know how long someone has left (not to be morbid) on this earth and I have to believe that when he does go that there will be a different outlook on this. It will become more meaningful I think. I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
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tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Laver is getting really old and you never know how long someone has left (not to be morbid) on this earth and I have to believe that when he does go that there will be a different outlook on this. It will become more meaningful I think. I don't see anything wrong with it.
I can see this getting named as ‘Legends Cup’ or something to honor the Borg, McEnroe, Rosewall, etc
 
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That’s part of the issue..it’s a tournament designed so that those three players can never meet. doesn’t sound like the setup of an official tournament, and I love LC.

And you might not think h2h matters in terms of GOAT debate, but it is still an official stat that should be maintained appropriately.
They wouldn't be able to meet in Davis Cup either if they were from the same country.
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
They wouldn't be able to meet in Davis Cup either if they were from the same country.
I view international team competition much differently than an invite only Europe vs. World exo, though I don't fully remember all of the new DC format so I might actually feel the same way about DC now!
 

Azure

Legend
I understand where you're coming from. Seems to me that this is an effort to pioneer something for the future generations and honor Laver. Every great event that we hold dear now I'm sure at some point had its doubters in the beginning. Same goes for a lot of things in life. I'm open to some and critical of others just like anyone else. On this, I think I see what they are trying to do. It may work and may not. We'll see.
Every good thing in the world will have opposition and naysayers who want that to fail

I don’t think an event to honor the great will be allowed to fail
I can see where the two of you are coming from. May be I should not be so sceptical. Perhaps a few changes and this might be a very special tournament too, who knows?
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
In general, it is a bad and sycophantic practice to name anything after anybody, be it a tournament, a stadium, a University department, a road, a park, an airport, or anything else. Social and political winds change and lead to all kinds of problems down the road. If the facility or event is financed by a donor who wants his name on there, ask him to donate anonymously or pack it up. That will reveal his true intentions, before something like the college admission scandal occurs.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
I like the LC but it is an exho. It's invitational and not full Bo3. It wouldn't be right to count it as official ATP matches.
Plus there's no ranking points at stake either. You can't count any matches as official if there is no ranking points and prize money up for grabs.
 
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EloQuent

G.O.A.T.
Plus there's no ranking points at stake either. You can't count any matches as official if there is no ranking points and prize money up for grabs.
There was prize money but not sure if by team or what.

Ranking points would be unfair for an invitation tournament. But even if they fully integrate into the tour, that has to be going forward, not retroactive.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
There was prize money but not sure if by team or what.

Ranking points would be unfair for an invitation tournament. But even if they fully integrate into the tour, that has to be going forward, not retroactive.
But even then, if it's by invitation only and there are no qualification matches, then it's hard to think that they can apply ranking points for the matches. Thus, it's impossible to really count these are official matches, especially when it's all done for the fans. Seems like a textbook definition of an exhibiton event to me. I'm not harping on exhos, but I just don't think you can count them as official matches.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Laver Cup is getting increasingly popular, way more than the Olympics and Davis Cup.
 
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kevaninho

Hall of Fame
Given that Nadal just a couple of days ago had his first win against Federer in 5,5 years and he needed FO clay to beat him this is a pretty funny statement.

What's Nadal's record vs Federer/Djokovic in the last couple of years? Please remind us. A combined 3-15 or something?
Whats his combined record for the career ? Something like 50-42 in his favour ? May as well include that rather than go back 'a couple of years' , no? ;)
 

Crisstti

Legend
I know Fed fans are inclined to say say H2H doesn't matter, but really, counting matches that were exos when played in official stats as wins in real tournaments, it's beyond ridiculous. Can't believe they'd do that. Way to screw up the stats as well.

It's also a way to sneak in third sets super tie breaks. For people who supossedly like tennis, they sure as hell want to see less of it.
 
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NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
I know Fed fans are inclined to say say H2H doesn't matter, but really, counting matches that were exos when played in official stats as wins in real tournaments, it's beyond ridiculous. Can't believe they'd do that. Way to screw the stats as well.

It's also a way to sneak third sets super tie breaks. For people who supossedly like tennis, they sure as hell want to see less of it.
The main reason I don't like it is because I think this means they are going to try to sneak in super tiebreakers into men's tennis in tournaments and I don't like that idea one bit. Matches should be decided on a final set not that crap. Keep that for doubles and leave singles alone. ATP is tripping. Because of this, Kermode leaving is in fact a good thing.
 

Raiden

Hall of Fame
This is why players should always aim to win exhos (they may get legalized later)

BTW that's how all tournaments began: as exhos/invitationals.

I don't see the complainers moaning that pre WW1/WW2 slams be abolished (since at various stages multiple players and especially the defending champion simply got invited to participate a year later)
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
This is why players should always aim to win exhos (they may get legalized later)

BTW that's how all tournaments began: as exhos/invitationals.

I don't see the complainers moaning that pre WW1/WW2 slams be abolished (since at various stages multiple players and especially the defending champion simply got invited to participate a year later)
I don't know about everyone else, but I hate losing lol. I'm not giving an inch. I don't care if it's a game of Go Fish or backyard 21.
 

Crisstti

Legend
Laver Cup is getting increasingly popular, way more than the Olympics and Davis Cup.
And it's a very cool tournament indeed. But you cannot count official stats off what were at the time exhibition matches, it's absurd and downright inaccurate. It's retroactively making exhibition matches official.

It's obviously unfair as well to award ranking points for an invitation only event (yeah, I know they're not doing it now, but they well could in the future, I'd expect anything).
 

WhiskeyEE

Legend
I know Fed fans are inclined to say say H2H doesn't matter, but really, counting matches that were exos when played in official stats as wins in real tournaments, it's beyond ridiculous. Can't believe they'd do that. Way to screw up the stats as well.

It's also a way to sneak in third sets super tie breaks. For people who supossedly like tennis, they sure as hell want to see less of it.
Is anything on the line during the Laver Cup? Money? Ranking points?

It's dumb if not. Although I suppose they include Davis Cup so this isn't any different.
 

Azure

Legend
I hate that they're constantly trying to shorten tennis matches. DO these people hate tennis?
I think the ATP realises that the story of Fed-Rafa that they tried to create is well past its expiry date. They have milked the big three as much as they could. It can at the most run for another couple of years and then there's going to be a vacuum. They are doing anything they can to boost the popularity of the sport, unfortunately at the cost of the sport itself.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Aww I like those smileys. You are an ok hater of Rafa.
You'd like me a lot more if we were on the same team. Look how many likes I get for the things that I say.

I'll give you this, though. I only talk crap about Nadal here. You'd have no idea it was me if you met me in real life.
 
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