Laver: McEnroe, Sampras, Borg and Federer better than Nadal in the Open Era

zagor

zagor

Bionic Poster
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
 
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zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
Click to expand...

Rafael Nadal is not done yet so I don't know what his position is in the list. However in the top three, I like Bjorn Borg above Pete Sampras. I have never followed Tennis when Borg played and I was a die hard Sampras fan who was actually sad when Sampras lost to Federer in 2001. After watching youtube clips and all I feel Borg is ahead of Sampras. Borg was good on all surfaces like Federer but Sampras was relatively bad on clay. Rod Laver has great opinions

I am also happy to see Stefan Edberg my all time favorite in that list :)
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
Click to expand...

You mean believed, as that was his view in January 2012, not in may/June 2013. I'm sure that in his view Nadal would have flown right past Borg since then with his record breaking 7th Roland Garros, and 5 more ms1000 titles including a record 8 Monte Carlo titles, and 7 Rome titles, and a few more beltings of Fed.
 
TheNatural said:
You mean believed, as that was his view in January 2012, not in may/June 2013. I'm sure that in his view Nadal would have flown right past Borg since then with his record breaking 7th Roland Garros, and 5 more ms1000 titles including a record 8 Monte Carlo titles, and 7 Rome titles, and a few more beltings of Fed.
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His ranking of Peter would remain unchanged at #3 though. Having Borg above Peter with lesser slam titles must be really hard for you to live with isn't it, Number 3? :lol:
 
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Laver has always confused me with his super high placement of McEnroe and super low placement of Lendl. McEnroe had more of the flare and talent, but Lendl was truly the dominate player in the mid to late 80s.
 
by July 2012 Laver already rated Rafa equal to Fed:

"They're very close. Are they great champions and do they have equal abilities? I'd say 'yes', they're pretty much equal.''
 
monfed said:
His ranking of Peter would remain unchanged at #3 though. Having Borg above Peter with lesser slam titles must be really hard for you to live with isn't it, Number 3? :lol:
Click to expand...

Most likely but who knows? Maybe if Petros came out of retirement and made a FO final sage Laver would see the error of his ways and realize that Petros doesn't suck on clay.
 
Feather said:
Rafael Nadal is not done yet so I don't know what his position is in the list. However in the top three, I like Bjorn Borg above Pete Sampras. I have never followed Tennis when Borg played and I was a die hard Sampras fan who was actually sad when Sampras lost to Federer in 2001. After watching youtube clips and all I feel Borg is ahead of Sampras. Borg was good on all surfaces like Federer but Sampras was relatively bad on clay. Rod Laver has great opinions

I am also happy to see Stefan Edberg my all time favorite in that list :)
Click to expand...

Yes, nice to see Edberg and Borg getting their dues and yes Laver does have great opinions, his knowledge of the game is without equal.



sonicare said:
Lavers list is basically the same as mine so he is right.
Click to expand...

Of course, I wouldn't have posted it if it didn't have Sonicare's seal of approval.
 
Those are nice lists.

However, everybody should keep in mind that Laver, as any other person, has his own subjective preferences and understandings that may skew his estimate about who is where. It is just an opinion (although pretty informed one).

Zagor, thanks for posting this.
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
Click to expand...

Laver has his opinions. So does fans and other players.

Couple of gaps..Sampras is an "Also ran" for ~40% of season (Clay). He is the 3 best player. really?
 
TheNatural said:
You mean believed, as that was his view in January 2012, not in may/June 2013. I'm sure that in his view Nadal would have flown right past Borg since then with his record breaking 7th Roland Garros, and 5 more ms1000 titles including a record 8 Monte Carlo titles, and 7 Rome titles, and a few more beltings of Fed.
Click to expand...
if that was his view in january 2012 than federer remains unchanged because he won wimby and returned to no.1 at 31 in tgat time span
 
mike danny said:
if that was his view in january 2012 than federer remains unchanged because he won wimby and returned to no.1 at 31 in tgat time span
Click to expand...

Basically, with that win and the return to the # 1 spot in the rankings, Federer silenced all his critics, except for the most desperate ones.
 
Laver knows best, as usual.

Nadal greatness is directly related to his big biceps.

You cannot compare bulldozer with Leonardo Da Vinci.
 
Tennis_Monk said:
Laver has his opinions. So does fans and other players.

Couple of gaps..Sampras is an "Also ran" for ~40% of season (Clay). He is the 3 best player. really?
Click to expand...

Well I suppose for the top players of that era, once Miami was over, he would play a green clay event (Atlanta) and in his later years Houston on red clay, then Italian Open, Hamburg, World Team cup and French Open. Then not touch the clay until next April, so that would account to around 20% of the season for him? The rest of the year would be a combination of rebound ace, outdoor hardcourts, indoor carpet, indoor hardcourts and grass. Most non clay court specialists would follow that formula back then. The clay court specialists would avoid outdoor hardcourts and play in Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Brazi, San Marino, Switzerland, Germany and other venues - almost like a parallel tour which allowed them to pick up points and remain relatively high in the rankings over the course of a season.

His clay record in later years was dreadful but still won an Italian Open, Kitzbuhel, Atlanta, played in other losing finals in Atlanta and Houston and also won a Davis cup on extremely slow clay in Moscow, so at least he has some things to be proud about, it is not totally hopeless but his lack of trying on clay in his later years has quite rightly hurt his perception on the surface, he should have continued to strive to get better after 1997.

Now of course, most of the season is a combination of outdoor hardcourts and outdoor clay with a few indoor hardcourts thrown in and a month of grass. So dynamics have changed.

I think Borg being at number 2 is a good boost for him and his fans because the mainstream media mainly focus on what is happening or happened in the last 10 to 15 years. To play in 12 or 13 major finals on clay and grass and win 11 of them may never be matched again. It is also an indication of how the Australian Open was not an important factor for so long. For instance, Andre Agassi made his Aussie debut 9 years after his career started and still won the event 4 times.
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
Click to expand...

zagor, Laver's lists refer more to peak play than to achievements, see Hoad's place.

Even as a Laver admirer I find it a shame that the Rocket has ranked his main rival, Rosewall, so low, even behind Perry. Perry was No. 1 only once (in 1941) while Rosewall was No.1 4 to 9 times (mostly as a Co. -No.1 though).

In his book Rod writes that Rosewall is the most underrated player at all.
 
BobbyOne said:
zagor, Laver's lists refer more to peak play than to achievements, see Hoad's place.

Even as a Laver admirer I find it a shame that the Rocket has ranked his main rival, Rosewall, so low, even behind Perry. Perry was No. 1 only once (in 1941) while Rosewall was No.1 4 to 9 times (mostly as a Co. -No.1 though).

In his book Rod writes that Rosewall is the most underrated player at all.
Click to expand...

LOL....Laver isn't the only experts who ranked other players above Rosewall. It's not a surprise. Perhaps you can send Laver, Flink and Rosewall himself a letter and tell them that Roseall should be ranked #1.
 
TMF said:
LOL....Laver isn't the only experts who ranked other players above Rosewall. It's not a surprise. Perhaps you can send Laver, Flink and Rosewall himself a letter and tell them that Roseall should be ranked #1.
Click to expand...

Rosewall doesn't even agree that he's #1 IIRC, and it's not a humility thing. He just doesn't believe it.
 
Tennis_Hands said:
Those are nice lists.

However, everybody should keep in mind that Laver, as any other person, has his own subjective preferences and understandings that may skew his estimate about who is where. It is just an opinion (although pretty informed one).

Zagor, thanks for posting this.
Click to expand...

Which is exactly the point I was trying to get across.
 
Sorana fan said:
John McEnroe?

Only 7 GS. Never won Roland Garros. Never won AO.

The man is senile.

This thread is just BS
Click to expand...
Ouch. He did make it to the RG final (someone above him on the list didn't); also, did you know in the late 70's/early 80's AO was still played in Dec ('87 moved to Jan) and many players skipped it. McEnroe didn't play it that often - sure he regrets it now - it was on grass at Kooyong when he was in his prime and it's hard to believe he wouldn't have won a few.
 
TMF said:
LOL....Laver isn't the only experts who ranked other players above Rosewall. It's not a surprise. Perhaps you can send Laver, Flink and Rosewall himself a letter and tell them that Roseall should be ranked #1.
Click to expand...

Mighty Federer: A man who trusts that idiotic Tennis Channel list cannot teach me, I'm sorry.
 
Steve0904 said:
Rosewall doesn't even agree that he's #1 IIRC, and it's not a humility thing. He just doesn't believe it.
Click to expand...

Steve, can you please tell me a secret? Has Rosewall himself told you that he is not No.1? I know Muscles personally since decades but he never told me that stuff...

Aussie players are known for their humbleness. Laver and Rosewall would always refuse to call themselves the GOAT!
 
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Tennis_Hands said:
Those are nice lists.

However, everybody should keep in mind that Laver, as any other person, has his own subjective preferences and understandings that may skew his estimate about who is where. It is just an opinion (although pretty informed one).

Zagor, thanks for posting this.
Click to expand...

Tennis Hands, you are of course right.
 
Nadal surpassed Mac long ago. There really isn't much of a case for Borg over Nadal anymore really other than the time at #1.

Nadal has already surpassed Borg on clay and has won both hardcourt slams (Something Borg failed to do).. And Nadal has gotten the best of ALL his main rivals (Again.. Something Borg FAILED to do)
 
Clarky21 said:
Totally agree. Laver has had a thing for Fed for years. His list is pure crap.
Click to expand...

Clarky21, I would say his list is a bit strange. By the way, Rosewall ranks Federer at fourth place behind Hoad, Gonzalez and Laver, also obviously ranked according top level, not regarding achievements.
 
Gonzo_style said:
Australian Open 2012 Final (and SF vs Murray) is the main reason why Laver put Djokovic in sixth place.
Click to expand...

Nah, the list is from the 25th. Murray-Djoko was on the 28th, I believe.

It's really astounding he put Djoko at 6th - he had 4 slams and a WTF (and one of the best seasons ever) to show for it. That's better than Lendl, Connors etc?
 
egn said:
Laver has always confused me with his super high placement of McEnroe and super low placement of Lendl. McEnroe had more of the flare and talent, but Lendl was truly the dominate player in the mid to late 80s.
Click to expand...

Yes, Lendl and Connors both had way better careers than McEnroe, regardless of McEnroe's superior talent and arguably higher peak level play.

Lew Hoad as Pre Open Era #1 is also absurd. He wasnt the best player a single year of his career and is ranked #1 over Gonzales who was about 8 or 9 years. It must be a peak level play and nothing else ranking as Hoad in achievements and career value isnt even top 10, even just in the Pre Open Era.
 
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Chanwan said:
Nah, the list is from the 25th. Murray-Djoko was on the 28th, I believe.

It's really astounding he put Djoko at 6th - he had 4 slams and a WTF (and one of the best seasons ever) to show for it. That's better than Lendl, Connors etc?
Click to expand...

Really?

Possible, I read it on Wikipedia

" After the 2012 Australian Open, Rod Laver came out with his greatest in the amateur and Open Era lists. Djokovic was ranked 6th and Nadal 5th on the Open Era list. Laver said the 2012 Australian Open final was a main reason for including both players"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Australian_Open_–_Men's_Singles_final#Legacy
 
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NadalAgassi said:
Yes, Lendl and Connors both had way better careers than McEnroe, regardless of McEnroe's superior talent and arguably higher peak level play.

Lew Hoad as Pre Open Era #1 is also absurd. He wasnt the best player a single year of his career and is ranked #1 over Gonzales who was about 8 or 9 years. It must be a peak level play and nothing else ranking as Hoad in achievements and career value isnt even top 10, even just in the Pre Open Era.
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NadalAgassi, You are right that Hoad was great when "on" but did not achieve enough to be top ten regarding achievements.
 
Tennis_Hands said:
Are you both criticizing the great Laver for his choice?

Are you saying, that he knows less than you two?


/trl mode off
Click to expand...

And you would do the same thing if Nadal had been placed higher than what suits your Fed inebriated state of mind. And you would do so along with posting a million :roll: smiley's to go with it.
 
Tennis_Hands said:
Are you both criticizing the great Laver for his choice?

Are you saying, that he knows less than you two?


/trl mode off
Click to expand...

Ignorant fellow, I have not critisized Laver in this post. I just wrote that Laver, as also Rosewall and others do, referred to peak play. Only an idiot would rank Hoad at first place regarding achievements. Are you an idiot? Do you know what Hoad achieved in comparison to Laver, Rosewall, Gonzalez, Tilden, Borg, Sampras and Federer?

But I have criticized Laver in another post for ranking Rosewall too low.

Note: Even a GOAT contender can err...
 
Feather said:
Rafael Nadal is not done yet so I don't know what his position is in the list. However in the top three, I like Bjorn Borg above Pete Sampras. I have never followed Tennis when Borg played and I was a die hard Sampras fan who was actually sad when Sampras lost to Federer in 2001. After watching youtube clips and all I feel Borg is ahead of Sampras. Borg was good on all surfaces like Federer but Sampras was relatively bad on clay. Rod Laver has great opinions

I am also happy to see Stefan Edberg my all time favorite in that list :)
Click to expand...

Those "greats" change their minds every other day. Plus, that's still their opinion, not a fact. It's worthless, really.
 
Haha. Laver's pre-modern list is only Americans and Aussies, other than Perry. Shows how the power has shifted in the sport decidedly away from those countries, at least on the men's side. Laver would knock someone off the pre-modern list, adding another Aussie.
 
Clarky21 said:
And you would do the same thing if Nadal had been placed higher than what suits your Fed inebriated state of mind. And you would do so along with posting a million :roll: smiley's to go with it.
Click to expand...

More likely he would log in under one of his few alternate accounts that has not yet been banned (eg- TMF, monfed, TennisMaze) and try to "support" himself.
 
Clarky21 said:
And you would do the same thing if Nadal had been placed higher than what suits your Fed inebriated state of mind. And you would do so along with posting a million :roll: smiley's to go with it.
Click to expand...

Clarky, you constantly state on here that Federer is greater than Nadal so why are you complaining about Laver's list which places Federer at number one?

I think you are starting to lose it. You are either bashing Nadal every minute on here or you are trying to claim he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which is it? Who should be number one according to you?
 
cc0509 said:
Clarky, you constantly state on here that Federer is greater than Nadal so why are you complaining about Laver's list which places Federer at number one?

I think you are starting to lose it. You are either bashing Nadal every minute on here or you are trying to claim he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which is it? Who should be number one according to you?
Click to expand...

I think Fed is GOAT, but I also think Nadal should be rated higher on that list. Tennis_Hands is a dumb troll who does nothing but provoke Nadal fans with every single post he makes. Nadal fans can't be happy about a win or compliment him at all without Tennis_Hands and the rest of the usual suspects ruining it. Check out any Nadal match thread or any thread started about him and you will see what I mean. He deserves what he gets and if he can't take it well that's too bad.

And he does overuse the :roll: smiley so badly it should be done away with. Nearly every post he makes contains one. It's annoying to the hilt.
 
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Tennis_Hands said:
Are you both criticizing the great Laver for his choice?

Are you saying, that he knows less than you two?


/trl mode off
Click to expand...

They have criticized other historians/experts like Steve Flink.

Yes, they think they are more knowledgeable than Laver.
 
cc0509 said:
Clarky, you constantly state on here that Federer is greater than Nadal so why are you complaining about Laver's list which places Federer at number one?

I think you are starting to lose it. You are either bashing Nadal every minute on here or you are trying to claim he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which is it? Who should be number one according to you?
Click to expand...

Cvac

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