Laver: McEnroe, Sampras, Borg and Federer better than Nadal in the Open Era

Noleberic123 said:
What happens if Djokovic wins 14 slams?
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These comparisons are just tough. That era was just so different and they didn't really count majors like we do today, so it's a little unfair to judge them by that means. The tour was fragmented in the pre-Open Era, and it didn't entirely settle down until Laver was done winning majors. But there is no denying that they had it a lot easier. I mean, some of the "majors" Laver won were with 10-player draws. Even some of his Open Era draws were missing multiple top 10 players. Not to mention, a disproportionate number of the players were either his compatriots or Americans. It just wasn't a global sport with top-class athletes like it is today.

Ask me when Djokovic gets to 14. I'll have a closer look and tell you what I think.
 
amorys90 said:
This is a very good list. Rafa and Djokovic are not done yet, so they have an opportunity to improve on their standing.
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That list is from January 2012, Nadal stood at 10 slams then, hence it made sense to put him below Sampras and Borg. Djokovic is rather high though, likely under the impression of his great 2011. Even Laver gets caught in the moment ;)
 
The_18th_Slam said:
These comparisons are just tough. That era was just so different and they didn't really count majors like we do today, so it's a little unfair to judge them by that means. The tour was fragmented in the pre-Open Era, and it didn't entirely settle down until Laver was done winning majors. But there is no denying that they had it a lot easier. I mean, some of the "majors" Laver won were with 10-player draws. Even some of his Open Era draws were missing multiple top 10 players. Not to mention, a disproportionate number of the players were either his compatriots or Americans. It just wasn't a global sport with top-class athletes like it is today.

Ask me when Djokovic gets to 14. I'll have a closer look and tell you what I think.
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Okay done. I think he should just really been discussing the Open era GOAT instead
 
xFedal said:
Laver is ahead of Novak because of his GrandSlam or because of his 7YE#1? If it's because his 7E#1 then thats fine....
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no offense, but I've got better things to do than trying to show you why Laver is ahead of Novak. If you don't know it, read some tennis history ;). Night.
(for the record, I don't necessarily consider Fed ahead of Laver either. Fed, Laver and Pancho are my top-3 all time in no definite order).
 
TheNatural said:
You mean believed, as that was his view in January 2012, not in may/June 2013. I'm sure that in his view Nadal would have flown right past Borg since then with his record breaking 7th Roland Garros, and 5 more ms1000 titles including a record 8 Monte Carlo titles, and 7 Rome titles, and a few more beltings of Fed.
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That is the partial credit for Nadal's reputation as a clay expert.
 
TheNatural said:
by July 2012 Laver already rated Rafa equal to Fed:

"They're very close. Are they great champions and do they have equal abilities? I'd say 'yes', they're pretty much equal.''
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But four years have passed,Roger is still at the top,but Nadal is not.Who's better ?
 
TheNatural said:
by July 2012 Laver already rated Rafa equal to Fed:

"They're very close. Are they great champions and do they have equal abilities? I'd say 'yes', they're pretty much equal.''
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I think since 2012 the two have had quite different trajectories, no? Despite his old age, Fed continues to perform and give epic performances on the biggest stages, against the biggest names, only falling short when it is Djokovic on the other side of the net. Nadal, on the other hand, has quickly faded away since 2013. If Nadal has a resurgence over the next couple of years he might move up in Laver's ranking.
 
McEnroe at 4? What is it with people rating this guy so high? He's maybe ahead of Edberg. Maybe. The guy's career at the top was over at 25, he had 4 awesome years and terrific to die for hands. But above Nadal/Djokovic/Lendl/Agassi/Connors? No way.
 
I think Laver may be ranking McEnroe so highly for a number of reasons. He may not be penalizing him for his lack of longevity (McEnroe seemed to get distracted and lose interest in the game, much like Borg), but instead considered him at his peak. McEnroe's 1984 season record of 82-3 is still the best of the open era. He may also be giving him credit for his successful doubles career, and considering that as part of a complete tennis player. Few of the top players in his day played doubles. If you combine his singles and doubles titles, that gives him 155. Again, this is the most in the Open Era.

He probably also takes into account that skipping the Australian Open was routine in that time, and that the surfaces of the majors in that day were more differentiated than they are now. The racket revolution and move away from wood also occurred during his career. Some of these things may not mean much to some, some may be more interested in counting Slams, but maybe they mean something to Laver.

Finally, I'd say Laver's point is that when McEnroe was at his peak, he was one of the best fast court players ever, and that's hard to argue with. In fact, McEnroe is probably a model example of a great fast court player.
 
Can't put McEnroe that high. He wasn't better than Lendl except on grass. Hell I wouldn't rank Johnny Mac above Boris Becker or Stefan Edberg. His 7 GS wins would have been far fewer if Borg hadn't burned out so young. Borg quit, Connors got old, Lendl couldn't play on grass and voila, McEnroe gets his pouty wins.

Otherwise i think the list is pretty solid. And I like that Borg is number 2. While his brilliance was more short lived than Fed or Sampras, he shined brightest of all during his peak. 90% match win rate in grand slams is amazing. And he never went to the Aussie open. He'd likely have 4 more slam titles if he'd gone to that tournament.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
Otherwise i think the list is pretty solid. And I like that Borg is number 2. While his brilliance was more short lived than Fed or Sampras, he shined brightest of all during his peak. 90% match win rate in grand slams is amazing. And he never went to the Aussie open. He'd likely have 4 more slam titles if he'd gone to that tournament.
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I'd just like to point out that your arguments for Borg are very similar to the arguments for McEnroe (performance during his peak, that era tended to skip the Australian).

Regarding the comparisons between Lendl and McEnroe, their history is pretty interesting. McEnroe won the first two meetings before Lendl won seven in a row. McEnroe then started trying a more aggressive approach against Lendl and actually won the next eight out of nine, and next 12 of 16 matches. In '86 Mac took his first break from the game, and he was never the same again (just as Borg was never the same after he returned). A lot of Lendl's wins came during this time, when McEnroe was just a shadow of his former self. So while Lendl was 21-15 overall against McEnroe, if you take those years out of it, his record changes to 12-14.
 
rmontro said:
I'd just like to point out that your arguments for Borg are very similar to the arguments for McEnroe (performance during his peak, that era tended to skip the Australian).

Regarding the comparisons between Lendl and McEnroe, their history is pretty interesting. McEnroe won the first two meetings before Lendl won seven in a row. McEnroe then started trying a more aggressive approach against Lendl and actually won the next eight out of nine, and next 12 of 16 matches. In '86 Mac took his first break from the game, and he was never the same again (just as Borg was never the same after he returned). A lot of Lendl's wins came during this time, when McEnroe was just a shadow of his former self. So while Lendl was 21-15 overall against McEnroe, if you take those years out of it, his record changes to 12-14.
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Good post
 
Nadal can still catch up to McEnroe. I believe that Nadal edges out Mac in singles but McEnroe was way better at doubles and overall body of work is greater.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
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amorys90 said:
Nadal can still catch up to McEnroe. I believe that Nadal edges out Mac in singles but McEnroe was way better at doubles and overall body of work is greater.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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What about Earths Mightiest Warrior and World Heavy Weight Champion, World No.1 Mr Novak Djokovic.
 
Chanwan said:
no offense, but I've got better things to do than trying to show you why Laver is ahead of Novak. If you don't know it, read some tennis history ;). Night.
(for the record, I don't necessarily consider Fed ahead of Laver either. Fed, Laver and Pancho are my top-3 all time in no definite order).
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Why you rate Pancho ahead of Pete and Djokovic? What can Djokovic do to surpass Pancho?
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
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I agree with most his open era rankings, but disagree with most of his past players rankings. No way the, overall, was Hoad better than him, Gonzalez or Rosewall. Like Vines, it seems on a given day, Lew could beat anyone but he was not consistent enough to beat the best often enough. Ken also ranked Hoad as #1, but I think that is more due to loyalty and friendship for their long deceased friend.
 
Rod Laver said:
not much changes in 5 years. At most the big 3 change, but clearly Feds position doesn't (according to the article) so it's left with novak and nadal.
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Well you have a reply from 27 minutes ago by thrust agreeing with a list made in 2012. So like you say obviously Nadal and Djokovic made huge accomplishments since then and are way ahead of certain players like McEnroe and have a case for the number two and number three spots ahead of Sampras and Borg. When this list was made Nadal had 10 slams and Djokovic 5. Lol

ibbi said:
And this thread is from 2013.
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Exactly. A thread from 2013 about an article in 2012, being commented on in 2017. Lol sure the list from the pre open era would still be interesting, but not the open era itself.
 
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TennisATP said:
Well you have a reply from 27 minutes ago by thrust agreeing with a list made in 2012. So like you say obviously Nadal and Djokovic made huge accomplishments since then and are way ahead of certain players like McEnroe and have a case for the number two and number three spots ahead of Sampras and Borg. When this list was made Nadal had 10 slams and Djokovic 5. Lol



Exactly. A thread from 2013 about an article in 2012, being commented on in 2017. Lol sure the list from the pre open era would still be interesting, but not the open era itself.
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True. I am surprised how high Novak was at the time the article was written. It seems to perhaps be a peak play list given Mcenroe ahead of Nadal at the time.
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
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He's funny. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion though.
 
airchallenge2 said:
He's funny. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion though.
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Wait a second. This is from 2012 so what's funny about his list, or at least his OE list? Very solid order right there. If asked now he'd probably bump Nadal and Djokovic over McEnroe and possibly over Sampras and Borg.
 
In the meanwhile since that article was written, Laver has been freeloading from every tournament and ATP. At least that hasnt changed in 5 years :oops:
 
Laver's Open-era list (as well as anybody's list) is pretty much his personal ranking of the ATP year-end No. 1's:
Years Player
----- ------
6 Pete Sampras
5 Jimmy Connors
5 Roger Federer
4 John McEnroe
4 Ivan Lendl
4 Novak Djokovic
3 Rafael Nadal
2 Bjorn Borg
2 Stefan Edberg
2 Lleyton Hewitt
1 Ilie Nastase
1 Mats Wilander
1 Jim Courier
1 Andre Agassi
1 Gustavo Kuerten
1 Andy Roddick
1 Andy Murray
 
Pretty sure Laver now has Nadal and Federer and Djokovic the top three. Nadal and Djokovic since he made that list have won countless majors
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
Click to expand...

@BobbyOne see this yet? Laver, that old Aussie ignoramus, doesn't strike me as a fellow who reads email so he should expect about 5,000 letters documenting Rosewall's achievements.
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
Click to expand...

Nadal has surpassed MAC by a huge margin

Pancho G was best pre open then laver then big bill Tilden
 
Anyone want to run around on a clay court with Borg, be my guest. You would be off the tour longer than Federer and Djokovic combined.
 
Adv. Edberg said:
Why Djoko? He's only won slams in the weakest of eras. And hasn't been the best of the his era... Political answer of course.
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Yes I am sure the list was compiled to gain political favor. What does Laver get in return I wonder? Hmmm. Get 20/20 to investigate ASAP.
 
So far, only Federer is ahead of Nadal in the Open Era and the Spaniard is not over yet, unlike the Swiss who will not win Majors again.

I think Nadal has two more good years (until 2022) to become the player with the most Grand Slam titles in history.
:D
 
Last edited:
I mean this list was made 7 years ago so it probably made more sense at that time, although I would’ve put Rafa ahead of MAC and maybe at a tie with Borg. Right now, it’s clearly the big 3 and everyone else on the open era list.
 
zagor said:
Who do you think the great Rod Laver believes are the Top 10 Players of the Past and Present?

Here are his picks. (With his usual humility, he excludes himself, of course.)

Enjoy:

PAST
10. John Newcombe (AUS)
9. Jack Crawford (AUS)
8. Bobby Riggs (USA)
7. Ellsworth Vines (USA)
6. Ken Rosewall (AUS)
5. Fred Perry (GBR)
4. Don Budge (USA)
3. Pancho Gonzalez (USA)
2. Jack Kramer (USA)
1. Lew Hoad (AUS)

PRESENT (OPEN ERA)
10. Stefan Edberg (SWE)
9. Ivan Lendl (USA)
8. Jimmy Connors (USA)
7. Andre Agassi (USA)
6. Novak Djokovic (SER)
5. Rafael Nadal (ESP)
4. John McEnroe (USA)
3. Pete Sampras (USA)
2. Bjorn Borg (SWE)
1. Roger Federer (SUI)

http://timelesstennis.blogspot.com/2012/01/rod-lavers-top-10-from-past-and-present.html


Fed the best player of the Open Era, Lew Hoad of the pre Open era, and more.
Click to expand...
@Turbo-87 , wut dew ewe thinque abowt Laver’s owe mission uv the obvious OE GOAT ? Maybe a posting of their shared photo op is in order to clear up the slight?
 
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