Leading with the wrist - forehand

[JonC]

I was messing around with my forehand recently, trying to imitate a Wawrika video I saw - I was trying to get the turn the doorknob thing with total relaxation. I found that if I think "lead with the wrist" it happens by itself. The part of the wrist that I feel is leading would be the ventral surface of the wrist (or the inside). The main advantage may be in emphasizing racket lag and a relaxed wrist - leading with the wrist seems to mandate correct form. Watching these slow motion Federer forehands makes me think I'm onto something - works for me at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtZudSpFMg

 

[Royce]

Yes that's correct. You lead with the wrist, or as some will more commonly say, "lead with the butt of the racquet". The butt of the racquet will point at the incoming ball when you "lead with the wrist".

It's all pre-stretching. The more you pre-stretch your arm, the more it will want to release. You get more pronation and power this way.

 

[JonC]

Yes that's correct. You lead with the wrist, or as some will more commonly say, "lead with the butt of the racquet". The butt of the racquet will point at the incoming ball when you "lead with the wrist".

It's all pre-stretching. The more you pre-stretch your arm, the more it will want to release. You get more pronation and power this way.

Yeah, it just works better for me to think of wrist i guess - I know where the wrist is but not so much the butt cap. I've been doing the same for a while on the 1hbh - leading with the heel of the hand as opposed to the butt cap. Perhaps on the forehand, the idea of leading the butt cap was causing me to tighten my grip to point the butt cap -not sure - but my stroke is much more relaxed now.

 

[Royce]

Yeah, it just works better for me to think of wrist i guess - I know where the wrist is but not so much the butt cap. I've been doing the same for a while on the 1hbh - leading with the heel of the hand as opposed to the butt cap. Perhaps on the forehand, the idea of leading the butt cap was causing me to tighten my grip to point the butt cap -not sure - but my stroke is much more relaxed now.

That's great. Glad you found something that works.

 

[JonC]

Another thing - I use a semi-western, if you have a full western, you'll lead with the heel of the hand.

 

[rkelley]

I was messing around with my forehand recently, trying to imitate a Wawrika video I saw - I was trying to get the turn the doorknob thing with total relaxation. I found that if I think "lead with the wrist" it happens by itself. The part of the wrist that I feel is leading would be the ventral surface of the wrist (or the inside). The main advantage may be in emphasizing racket lag and a relaxed wrist - leading with the wrist seems to mandate correct form. Watching these slow motion Federer forehands makes me think I'm onto something - works for me at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtZudSpFMg

I bolded part of your original post that I think is important. The relaxed wrist, and the forearm, is something I think is really important. I'm not going to say there isn't any stretch shortening (SSC) going on, but the wrist and the forearm are more being allowed to move than forced to move, or loaded up with a lot a SSC.

The racquet is whipping through the contact zone.

The other key part to whipping the racquet is when Fed (or anyone) pulls his arm across his body. That's the action that whips the the head of the racquet into the contact zone. 5263, another poster here, talks about it a lot. Then you mostly let your wrist and forearm just go, acting more as hinges than springs. Check out the Fed fh without a Racquet thread (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=518806). The only thing you're controlling is the racquet angle through the contact zone - set it and maintain it.

I understand the "turning the doorknob" allusion (used to use it myself), but I think it connotes a lot more active pronation of the forearm than should be happening. Also, at contact John Yandell has said that there's actually more internal shoulder rotation (ISR) happening than pronation.

 

[JonC]

I bolded part of your original post that I think is important. The relaxed wrist, and the forearm, is something I think is really important. I'm not going to say there isn't any stretch shortening (SSC) going on, but the wrist and the forearm are more being allowed to move than forced to move, or loaded up with a lot a SSC.

The racquet is whipping through the contact zone.

The other key part to whipping the racquet is when Fed (or anyone) pulls his arm across his body. That's the action that whips the the head of the racquet into the contact zone. 5263, another poster here, talks about it a lot. Then you mostly let your wrist and forearm just go, acting more as hinges than springs. Check out the Fed fh without a Racquet thread (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=518806). The only thing you're controlling is the racquet angle through the contact zone - set it and maintain it.

I understand the "turning the doorknob" allusion (used to use it myself), but I think it connotes a lot more active pronation of the forearm than should be happening. Also, at contact John Yandell has said that there's actually more internal shoulder rotation (ISR) happening than pronation.

How do feel about the idea that turning the racquet face over is part of the stroke? - i.e. ,it happens in shadow swings as well.

 

[rkelley]

How do feel about the idea that turning the racquet face over is part of the stroke? - i.e. ,it happens in shadow swings as well.

What do you mean when you say "turning the racquet face over?" Do you mean the general WW motion of the racquet? Then yes, that's part of the modern forehand. You can hit flatter or with more spin with that same basic motion. The arc of the WW just arcs more or less upward.

But honestly the thing I think about is not the arc of the WW motion but setting the racquet face angle through the contact zone and getting the racquet head whipping up and through the contact zone at that angle. I find the WW arc takes care of itself if you're swing correctly and just allow the racquet to decelerate after contact.

 

[JonC]

What do you mean when you say "turning the racquet face over?" Do you mean the general WW motion of the racquet? Then yes, that's part of the modern forehand. You can hit flatter or with more spin with that same basic motion. The arc of the WW just arcs more or less upward.

But honestly the thing I think about is not the arc of the WW motion but setting the racquet face angle through the contact zone and getting the racquet head whipping up and through the contact zone at that angle. I find the WW arc takes care of itself if you're swing correctly and just allow the racquet to decelerate after contact.

I use the windshield wiper for hitting of the rise - the stroke I'm imagining is a sitter or a ball where you want to hit big. With that shot, I think the feel is a slapping of the ball with the racquet face closing (parallel to ground) at contact. Not saying this is exactly what happens but it feels that way and a closed face is definitely what you see at end of follow through.

 

[maxpotapov]

Leading with the wrist is quite a misleading title or name of the concept

 

[JonC]

Leading with the wrist is quite a misleading title or name of the concept

I beg to differ.

 

[maxpotapov]

...in that it creates perception of actively doing something with the wrist first. And then from the discussion it's more about building you motion around wrist, which I agree with

 

[JonC]

...in that it creates perception of actively doing something with the wrist first. And then from the discussion it's more about building you motion around wrist, which I agree with

Maybe so, but for me it just emphasizes a relaxed wrist somehow - probably because to lead with the wrist, it has to be extended.

 

[watungga]

Try not to think about leading with wrist. For the sake of a good forehand, try to plan on hitting ball out front (racquet parallel to the baseline), and think about swinging the racquet with the mindset of hitting the ball the the racquet's edge (as seen from tap-the-dog).

I would assume, its impossible to hit with the racquet's edge because your body just automatically executed the swing leading with the wrist. On a competition level, you'll be thinking all other things while you let your body move instinctively during the swing. If you think about that leading with wrist, you have so much doubt on your positional stance during ball impact. If that's the case, there are other factors you may need to learn or realize.

 

[JonC]

Try not to think about leading with wrist. For the sake of a good forehand, try to plan on hitting ball out front (racquet parallel to the baseline), and think about swinging the racquet with the mindset of hitting the ball the the racquet's edge (as seen from tap-the-dog).

I would assume, its impossible to hit with the racquet's edge because your body just automatically executed the swing leading with the wrist. On a competition level, you'll be thinking all other things while you let your body move instinctively during the swing. If you think about that leading with wrist, you have so much doubt on your positional stance during ball impact. If that's the case, there are other factors you may need to learn or realize.

Edge of racquet -maybe I'll try that but right now this technique is helping me lag much more.

 

[boramiNYC]

For E fh this can help. And anybody who uses arm extension as a major part of the forward swing.

For double bend fh like W or some SW fh, the feel you point to lies closer to the body like the elbow.

 

[JonC]

For E fh this can help. And anybody who uses arm extension as a major part of the forward swing.

For double bend fh like W or some SW fh, the feel you point to lies closer to the body like the elbow.

I was looking at my grip and I'm more Eastern than Semi-Western.

 

[JonC]

Found this by Scott Murphy - exactly what I was talking about. I had already found this trick for the one-hand backhand but I like what he says about that too. This stuff is key.

"To ensure that the wrist stays back against itself during a forehand and a two handed backhand, the heel of the hand, (i.e. the front of the wrist) is used to pull the butt of the handle and in this way draw the racquet head to the point of contact and beyond. At contact the racquet face will align with or be slightly ahead or behind the wrist depending on the shot direction and at the swing’s conclusion it will be well ahead of it.. but it’s only at the very end of the deceleration phase of the follow through that the “heel of the hand-butt of the handle” control factor backs off. If the back of the wrist is allowed to have anything to do with the forward swing until relatively speaking well after contact, it will be overly wristy and inconsistent. In addition, on the forehand, one’s elbow should be bent and locked at contact.

For a one handed backhand it’s the leading edge of the hand or that which sits just above the handle and the side of the wrist that draw the butt of the handle forward. Additionally, at this point the hitting arm should be extended. The racquet head follows their lead. If not, the swing will again be too wristy and floppy. This kind of swing is often referred to as “winging the racquet,” and when it happens control of the shot is lost."

http://www.scottmurphytennis.com/scott-shots/slotting/

 

[LeeD]

JohnMcEnroe was a pretty good tennis player.
He didn't lead with the wrist, or layback his racket much, on his forehands.
Some would say he had a remedial WTA forehand.

 

[JonC]

JohnMcEnroe was a pretty good tennis player.
He didn't lead with the wrist, or layback his racket much, on his forehands.
Some would say he had a remedial WTA forehand.

Niether did Edberg and whole bunch of other guys. But they also didn't get even close to the topspin of modern players. Why sacrifice spin when, in the least, it makes it easier to keep a ball in play?

 

[LeeD]

Does spin make it easier to keep the ball in play?
I mean, for YOU, or for me.
I know it's mandatory for ATP wannabees, and even for 5.0+ players.
Talking topspin, right?
I'm 4.0. Slice is a spin that limits depth, and is easy to hit for net clearance.
Flats is easy to hit hard, but harder to control when hitting just hard.
Sidespin is very effective when it tails off to the alleys, or into the body.
Should we all emulate ATP wannabees?

 

[TennisCJC]

I was messing around with my forehand recently, trying to imitate a Wawrika video I saw - I was trying to get the turn the doorknob thing with total relaxation. I found that if I think "lead with the wrist" it happens by itself. The part of the wrist that I feel is leading would be the ventral surface of the wrist (or the inside). The main advantage may be in emphasizing racket lag and a relaxed wrist - leading with the wrist seems to mandate correct form. Watching these slow motion Federer forehands makes me think I'm onto something - works for me at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtZudSpFMg

I think you would be better off not trying to accentuate "the doorknob thing" during impact. Just don't lock the wrist up tight and let the stroke flow without fancy doorknob turning at impact. "Lead with the wrist" to me means pulling the racket butt toward contact. If you think of the FH as a stroke and let it flow, I think you will hit cleaner and thus harder without trying to turn the doorknob or flex the wrist intentionally. Yes, practice the WW finish but think of the FH as a stroke with primary source of power from the legs and core rotation. The wrist can be passive and the pronation of the FOREARM is used to let the racket path stay smooth and flowing. WW is more of a forearm pronation than a wrist turning, or wrist flexing. The forearm pronation is to keep the strings flowing smoothly up and across the ball contact. Topspin comes from keeping the racket slightly closed at impact and a slightly upward and across swing path. If you want more spin, close the hand at the end of your FH takeback. Watch your Federer slo-mo video and see how his palm faces roughly downward toward the ground at the end of his takeback. Try the palm down thing and let it flow from their and you'll get more topspin.

 

[5263]

Another thing - I use a semi-western, if you have a full western, you'll lead with the heel of the hand.

Glad you found a good reference for you and above you show why the butt of the racket seems better for most players.

 

[JonC]

Does spin make it easier to keep the ball in play?
I mean, for YOU, or for me.
I know it's mandatory for ATP wannabees, and even for 5.0+ players.
Talking topspin, right?
I'm 4.0. Slice is a spin that limits depth, and is easy to hit for net clearance.
Flats is easy to hit hard, but harder to control when hitting just hard.
Sidespin is very effective when it tails off to the alleys, or into the body.
Should we all emulate ATP wannabees?

I guess I am a bit of an ATP wannabee - but I think of myself as all court player.
If you have a good forehand slice then you may not need the topspin forehand. I actually think it's an underutilized shot. I may start working on my forehand slice - used to use it more back in high school and you can really punish a semi-high ball with it.

 

[JonC]

I think you would be better off not trying to accentuate "the doorknob thing" during impact. Just don't lock the wrist up tight and let the stroke flow without fancy doorknob turning at impact. "Lead with the wrist" to me means pulling the racket butt toward contact. If you think of the FH as a stroke and let it flow, I think you will hit cleaner and thus harder without trying to turn the doorknob or flex the wrist intentionally. Yes, practice the WW finish but think of the FH as a stroke with primary source of power from the legs and core rotation. The wrist can be passive and the pronation of the FOREARM is used to let the racket path stay smooth and flowing. WW is more of a forearm pronation than a wrist turning, or wrist flexing. The forearm pronation is to keep the strings flowing smoothly up and across the ball contact. Topspin comes from keeping the racket slightly closed at impact and a slightly upward and across swing path. If you want more spin, close the hand at the end of your FH takeback. Watch your Federer slo-mo video and see how his palm faces roughly downward toward the ground at the end of his takeback. Try the palm down thing and let it flow from their and you'll get more topspin.

I understand - my experiment was to get the look of the shot without Trying to do it.

Here's the problem with "leading with the butt" - it makes me think that I'm controlling the racquet with the hand (hand holds and directs the handle). Leading with the wrist takes the hand out of it - mentally.

I appreciate your commentary but here's the thing - if I just think about generating wrist speed while trying to tear the felt off the ball (not gently brushing) it all comes together. Your body knows what to do to get maximum speed of your wrist (my focus) so I just let it happen. All the correct things that you mention happen naturally if the focus is on throwing the wrist forward and around.