LED TV problems/questions

Fugazi

Professional
I just bought a 32'' LED 720p Panasonic Viera TV (model TC-L32X5), and frankly I'm not too impressed so far. My setup: DVD player and basic cable.

Two issues (with both cable and DVDs):

1) When the image moves a lot (when the camera moves, so to speak), the image often blurs a little. This never happened with my old tube TV.

2) There are thin, bright horizontal lines at the very top and bottom of the screen (one at the top, one at the bottom).

I'm a little rattled by both issues, and was wondering if someone can help me solve or clarify this...
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The refresh rate is not as big a problem as manufacturers claim, but yours is indeed the standard rate.

Your main problem is that this is not a full hd tv so I don't know why youd get one of those with prices these days.
 

Fugazi

Professional
The refresh rate is not as big a problem as manufacturers claim, but yours is indeed the standard rate.

Your main problem is that this is not a full hd tv so I don't know why youd get one of those with prices these days.
I don't watch Blurays and I don't have HD TV, so paying the 200$ extra for the full HD didn't seem necessary. The thing is, when you have an old tube TV, you'd hope that getting any LED TV should lead to an improvement...
 

Fugazi

Professional
The refresh rate is not as big a problem as manufacturers claim, but yours is indeed the standard rate.

Your main problem is that this is not a full hd tv so I don't know why youd get one of those with prices these days.
So you think that full HD would specifically solve issue #1?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Prices for full hd must be a lot cheaper where I live, but I actually waited for the prices to come down and this they did about two years ago.

No idea about the lines but blurring is usually attributed to the refresh rate so you can buy them with 100 not 50 or presumably 120 not 60 in your part of the world.

All I can say is that i have a full hd edge-lit led lcd with a refresh rate of 50 and there is no blurring and no lines.

Its a Sanyo which is actually owned by Panasonic but sold more cheaply.
 

Fugazi

Professional
Prices for full hd must be a lot cheaper where I live, but I actually waited for the prices to come down and this they did about two years ago.

No idea about the lines but blurring is usually attributed to the refresh rate so you can buy them with 100 not 50 or presumably 120 not 60 in your part of the world.

All I can say is that i have a full hd edge-lit led lcd with a refresh rate of 50 and there is no blurring and no lines.

Its a Sanyo which is actually owned by Panasonic but sold more cheaply.
I paid about 450$, and the 1080p (full HD) was 650$. Panasonic is probably the best brand out there right now, so possibly a bit more expensive but you'd at least hope that their LED TVs beat old HD tube TVs...
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
I paid about 450$, and the 1080p (full HD) was 650$. Panasonic is probably the best brand out there right now, so possibly a bit more expensive but you'd at least hope that their LED TVs beat old HD tube TVs...
Samsung LED all the way....
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I think tube tvs are actually still technologically better in terms of picture quality, strangely enough.

Edge lit leds give you a better picture and cheaper electricity usage, by the way.

600 AU dollars will now get you a 42' Panasonic led lcd here.
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
I think tube tvs are actually still technologically better in terms of picture quality, strangely enough.

Edge lit leds give you a better picture and cheaper electricity usage, by the way.

600 AU dollars will now get you a 42' Panasonic led lcd here.
If you want the quality picture, go with DLP...
 

jonnythan

Professional
I paid about 450$, and the 1080p (full HD) was 650$. Panasonic is probably the best brand out there right now, so possibly a bit more expensive but you'd at least hope that their LED TVs beat old HD tube TVs...
Not at all. LCDs are superior to tube TV's in many ways (size, power consumption, geometry), but image quality isn't one of them. Pretty much every LCD TV you can buy is subject to motion blur and jerkiness. That's why 120/240 Hz TVs exist - they combat that blur and jerkiness by over-processing the image and making it unnaturally smooth, leading to the Soap Opera Effect. They also generally have poor black levels, color accuracy, and shadow detail compared to tube TVs. LCDs work by shining a bright light through a transmissive color display. Most LED TVs are LCDs that use "edge lighting" in the form of a bright bank of LEDs at each corner. So if dark scenes seem brighter in the corners, that's why.

Plasma TVs, particularly the Panasonic ones, are far superior to all LCDs in essentially every measure of picture quality. Plasmas don't really come in sizes smaller than 50" though. Plasmas are the closest you can really get to the traditional tube-TV picture, because they work on an almost identical principle - phosphors are illuminated by direct electrical stimulation instead of a cathode ray. However, plasmas don't have as high an overall brightness level as most LCDs.

DLPs are also generally superior to LCDs in the picture quality department. However, they are large and bulky and require lamp changes. You also get a slightly different feel to the picture because it's a rear projection technology.
 

jonnythan

Professional
So you think that full HD would specifically solve issue #1?
1080p versus 720p has absolutely nothing to do with motion blur on an LCD. Also, edge lit is not better. It is thinner and cheaper to make. The highest-quality LED TVs are not edge lit - they are backlit with local dimming.

Anyway, long story short, you bought a pretty low-end LED-lit LCD TV. There are certain compromises involved, and motion blur, color accuracy, and viewing angles are among them.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
He wants a good enough response time to eliminate blur and I've no blur at 6.5ms.

In tv showrooms most of them blurred once upon a time and then they sold you higher refresh rates.

Now there's no blur in showrooms and they don't talk so much about refresh rates.
 

jonnythan

Professional
Pretty much every LCD/LED has 120 or 240 Hz processing, which largely eliminates the blur thanks to processing but at the expense of quality. It's called the soap opera effect.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Response time is a term associated with LCD monitors and televisions. According to online encyclopedia Wikipedia, "it translates to the amount of time it takes for a liquid crystal cell to go from active (black) to inactive (white) and back to active (black) again. It is measured in milliseconds (ms)."
Response time is a critical element to consider when buying a LCD TV because it directly impacts the screens ability to clearly portray moving images and well-defined edges. However, it is not the only thing that makes or breaks a LCD TV. Other factors like picture improvement technology, progressive scan and resolution also affect overall picture quality.

Side Effects of Slow Response Times

Ghosting would be a product of a slow response time, which is where images stay on screen longer than intended. Or, when watching a baseball game on a LCD screen with a slow response time the ball would appear to have a comet-like tail when it moves across the screen.

Common Response Times

In the TV market, common response times are 8ms, 16ms, 20ms and beyond. On this scale, 8ms would be the best response time. While many LCD screens under 26" are rarely affected by slow response times, screens 30" and larger are not as fortunate. In my opinion, flat panel LCD screens larger than 30" have a difficult time displaying moving images with clarity.Therefore, I would be wary of anything larger than 30" with a response time above 16ms.

Also Known As: Response time often confused for refresh rate, which is not exactly the same thing.
 

jonnythan

Professional
Note that advertised response times are "grey to grey" response times, not black-to-white. The "real" response times on an LCD are 2-3 times higher than what is advertised. Ghosting is easy to see on any LCD with a high contrast image. It's super obvious when you have a white object moving on a black background.
 

Fugazi

Professional
1080p versus 720p has absolutely nothing to do with motion blur on an LCD. Also, edge lit is not better. It is thinner and cheaper to make. The highest-quality LED TVs are not edge lit - they are backlit with local dimming.

Anyway, long story short, you bought a pretty low-end LED-lit LCD TV. There are certain compromises involved, and motion blur, color accuracy, and viewing angles are among them.
I'm a little confused here about the "low-end" thing... I heard that Panasonic and Samsung are probably the best brands right now. Examples of high-end 32'' brands/models?
 

Fugazi

Professional
Pretty much every LCD/LED has 120 or 240 Hz processing, which largely eliminates the blur thanks to processing but at the expense of quality. It's called the soap opera effect.
I think it's 60 Hz on the TC-L32X5, that could explain things. Also I'm beginning to realize that tube TVs are (still) pretty good... No motion blur is possibly better than higher resolution I guess.
 

Fugazi

Professional
Motion enhancement technology seems to be important with LED TVs: CMR and backlight scanning are mentioned in the specs of Samsung and Panasonic, respectively, don't know the difference though...
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Motion blur was corrected initially by selling people higher priced tvs with 120 Hz processing, but it is better fixed by response time.

You bought a technologically out of date tv despite the fact its a good brand. Just go to a tv showroom and look at quick action videos and then buy online.
 

Fugazi

Professional
Motion blur was corrected initially by selling people higher priced tvs with 120 Hz processing, but it is better fixed by response time.

You bought a technologically out of date tv despite the fact its a good brand. Just go to a tv showroom and look at quick action videos and then buy online.
Perhaps you're right, but that doesn't give me any idea which brands/models I should look for. It's not like there's 30 brands out there, and from what I heard Panasonic and Samsung are the best ones at the moment. And it's not like there are that many upper-scale choices for 32'' Panasonic and Samsung TVs.

BTW, I can't buy online, because if I choose to change the model, it'll have to be at store where I bought it.
 
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Fugazi

Professional
Response time is not listed in the specs of most LED TVs it seems... I'm sure plasma is better, but 32'' plasma TVs simply don't exist, and I've seen no other available technology in the stores I've visited or online. Obviously I don't want to pay more then about 600-700$, so I'm not gonna go for super high-end stuff.
 

jonnythan

Professional
Response time is not listed in the specs of most LED TVs it seems... I'm sure plasma is better, but 32'' plasma TVs simply don't exist, and I've seen no other available technology in the stores I've visited or online. Obviously I don't want to pay more then about 600-700$, so I'm not gonna go for super high-end stuff.
The TVs with 120Hz processing are awful IMO. The soap opera effect is unbearable, especially if you're used to a tube TV. At your budget and size you're really limited though so just learn to live with it.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Not at all. LCDs are superior to tube TV's in many ways (size, power consumption, geometry), but image quality isn't one of them. Pretty much every LCD TV you can buy is subject to motion blur and jerkiness. That's why 120/240 Hz TVs exist - they combat that blur and jerkiness by over-processing the image and making it unnaturally smooth, leading to the Soap Opera Effect. They also generally have poor black levels, color accuracy, and shadow detail compared to tube TVs. LCDs work by shining a bright light through a transmissive color display. Most LED TVs are LCDs that use "edge lighting" in the form of a bright bank of LEDs at each corner. So if dark scenes seem brighter in the corners, that's why.

Plasma TVs, particularly the Panasonic ones, are far superior to all LCDs in essentially every measure of picture quality. Plasmas don't really come in sizes smaller than 50" though. Plasmas are the closest you can really get to the traditional tube-TV picture, because they work on an almost identical principle - phosphors are illuminated by direct electrical stimulation instead of a cathode ray. However, plasmas don't have as high an overall brightness level as most LCDs.

DLPs are also generally superior to LCDs in the picture quality department. However, they are large and bulky and require lamp changes. You also get a slightly different feel to the picture because it's a rear projection technology.
this...

exactly right, Plasma may be the oldest HD flat screen technology, but to me its still the best especially when considering value. Samsung makes a very good plasma as well.

Samsung at one point made a 'tube'/glass HD TV, but no longer. I wish I had purchased that when i had a chance. I miss glass screens, LOL...
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Perhaps you're right, but that doesn't give me any idea which brands/models I should look for. It's not like there's 30 brands out there, and from what I heard Panasonic and Samsung are the best ones at the moment. And it's not like there are that many upper-scale choices for 32'' Panasonic and Samsung TVs.

BTW, I can't buy online, because if I choose to change the model, I'll have to be at store where I bought it.
If value is your main concern I would go with Vizio. However, I would invest in an extended warranty if its not too expensive (only the ones direct from the store, no third party except for maybe square soft)...
 

jonnythan

Professional
A lot of companies made widescreen direct-view CRT HDTVs, including Sony and Samsing. The picture quality on them was outstanding. They were of course very bulky and heavy and screen sizes topped out around 36" or so. Even these models, which haven't been manufactured for many years, produce images that far surpass anything you can get on even the best LCD of similar size.

There's also a sigjnificant number of people who refuse to use plasma or LCD big-screen TVs, insisting on using the rear-projection widescreen CRT HDTVs originally made by companies like Hitachi. They weren't made for a long time, and calibration can be an absolute nightmare, but the PQ on them was very good as well. I don't think it's as good as a modern plasma or even DLP, though.
 
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DRII

G.O.A.T.
Motion enhancement technology seems to be important with LED TVs: CMR and backlight scanning are mentioned in the specs of Samsung and Panasonic, respectively, don't know the difference though...
I haven't seen any LED TV that didn't produce that 'documentary' look and feel with it's picture, even from the best brands.

LED just seems to be a new technology that just is not surperior (or even on par) with older types...
 

jonnythan

Professional
Just to be clear, I am using LCD as a generic term to include both fluorescent-lit and LED-lit LCD displays. The only difference between what's marketed as an "LCD" display and an "LED" display is the nature of the lighting technology. There is no difference in the actual display panel itself, except as they normally vary from manufacturer and model.
 

Fugazi

Professional
I guess my only real option (other than keeping my Panasonic) is Samsung, but honestly I'm not convinced it would make a big difference as far as motion blur is concerned.
 

Fugazi

Professional
A lot of companies made widescreen direct-view CRT HDTVs, including Sony and Samsing. The picture quality on them was outstanding. They were of course very bulky and heavy and screen sizes topped out around 36" or so. Even these models, which haven't been manufactured for many years, produce images that far surpass anything you can get on even the best LCD of similar size.

There's also a sigjnificant number of people who refuse to use plasma or LCD big-screen TVs, insisting on using the rear-projection widescreen CRT HDTVs originally made by companies like Hitachi. They weren't made for a long time, and calibration can be an absolute nightmare, but the PQ on them was very good as well. I don't think it's as good as a modern plasma or even DLP, though.
My old tube TV was a 26'' Toshiba HDTV (flatscreen, widescreen), so perhaps I didn't appreciate what I had... In any case it was too big for my new setup.
 
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