Lendl losses to Cash

[GuyForget]

Lendl was Cash's pigeon in slams in the latter half of the 80s AO87 SF, W87 F, AO88 SF

Pat Cash VS Ivan Lendl | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis

Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

waste given that Cash obv not in the same class as Becker+Edberg. would Lendl have won these AO's if he's beaten Pat?
+ more generally, seems that Lendl couldn't dominate any of his major rivals in his career, aside from an ageing Mcenroe.
Losing overall H2H vs Edberg + in slams, Becker's biatch in slams, lost 2 US open finals to Connors, fairly even with Mac when Mac was still good, losing H2H vs Wilander in slam finals

 

[Cashman]

Cash at his best was definitely in the same class as Becker and Edberg - he just wasn’t at his best very often due to injuries

I don’t think it is a major slight on Lendl that he ran into Cash on a few key occasions when the latter was extremely fit and playing excellent tennis (usually on his best surface and Lendl’s worst)

 

[buscemi]

Lendl was Cash's pigeon in slams in the latter half of the 80s AO87 SF, W87 F, AO88 SF

Pat Cash VS Ivan Lendl | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis

Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

waste given that Cash obv not in the same class as Becker+Edberg. would Lendl have won these AO's if he's beaten Pat?
+ more generally, seems that Lendl couldn't dominate any of his major rivals in his career, aside from an ageing Mcenroe.
Losing overall H2H vs Edberg + in slams, Becker's biatch in slams, lost 2 US open finals to Connors, fairly even with Mac when Mac was still good, losing H2H vs Wilander in slam finals

At the 1987 Australian Open, if Lendl beat Cash in the SF, he would have faced Edberg in the final. Edberg had beaten Lendl in the 1985 Australian Open SF on the way to the title, but Lendl would go on to beat Edberg in the 1987 Wimbledon SF (before being beaten by Cash in the final). I'm going to tap Edberg here b/c he played great in four of his five finals at grass Majors and had that prior win over Lendl on Kooyong grass, which seemingly suited his game even better than Wimbledon grass.

At the 1988 Australian Open, if Lendl beat Cash in the SF, he would have faced Wilander in the final. Lendl had just beaten Wilander in the 1987 U.S. Open final but would lose to him in the 1988 U.S. Open final. This was Wilander's best year, and I think Rebound Ace suited his game better than Decoturf. I still tab Mats to take the final.

Finally, as Cashman notes, talent-wise, Cash was up there with Edberg and Becker if he didn't have all the injuries, and that stretch when he beat Lendl at those three Majors was when he was at his best. The fact that he could give Lendl trouble was evident when, as a 19 year-old, he took Lendl to a fifth set tiebreaker in that epic Super Saturday at the 1984 U.S. Open.

 

[abmk]

Cash at his best was definitely in the same class as Becker and Edberg - he just wasn’t at his best very often due to injuries

I don’t think it is a major slight on Lendl that he ran into Cash on a few key occasions when the latter was extremely fit and playing excellent tennis (usually on his best surface and Lendl’s worst)

Cash was very good and troublesome for Lendl, but not in the same class as Becker and Edberg - even when at his best.
Becker for one had too much power for him, routing him in straights on grass thrice - including in Wim 88 when Cash was defending champ.
Edberg had a big 8-2 h2h lead vs him.

While Cash beat Lendl in 4 sets in AO 87, Edberg beat him in 5 sets there.
While Cash beat Lendl in 5 sets in AO 88, Wilander beat him in 5 sets there.
So you can't use Cash wasn't at his best or close to it in those slams for example.

 

[Cashman]

Cash was very good and troublesome for Lendl, but not in the same class as Becker and Edberg - even when at his best.
Becker for one had too much power for him, routing him in straights on grass thrice - including in Wim 88 when Cash was defending champ.
Edberg had a big 8-2 h2h lead vs him.

I understand why people who did not watch Cash play think this - Cash had a truly horrific career with injuries and played many more matches hampered by them than he did at his true level

for example the three straight sets wins of Becker you refer to were:

Queens 1985 - Cash struggling with a back injury that would force him off the circuit for 9 months after Wimbledon

Wimbledon 1988 - Cash again struggling with back issues, took a month off after the tournament then came back and injured his foot during the North American hardcourts

Wimbledon 1990 - Cash post-achilles injury, was no longer a top player


I am not knocking Becker or Edberg and obviously I am not saying that Cash would have won six slams if he had stayed injury free, but he was easily mixing with the top guys in the world when he was fit

 

[Winners or Errors]

I understand why people who did not watch Cash play think this - Cash had a truly horrific career with injuries and played many more matches hampered by them than he did at his true level

for example the three straight sets wins of Becker you refer to were:

Queens 1985 - Cash struggling with a back injury that would force him off the circuit for 9 months after Wimbledon

Wimbledon 1988 - Cash again struggling with back issues, took a month off after the tournament then came back and injured his foot during the North American hardcourts

Wimbledon 1990 - Cash post-achilles injury, was no longer a top player


I am not knocking Becker or Edberg and obviously I am not saying that Cash would have won six slams if he had stayed injury free, but he was easily mixing with the top guys in the world when he was fit

Yeah, if people actually look at the H2H, they'll see that Cash matched up well with both Becker and Edberg when he was healthy. His injury riddled career was depressing to watch when I was in my teens and twenties. Beautiful game when healthy.

 

[NedStark]

Yeah, if people actually look at the H2H, they'll see that Cash matched up well with both Becker and Edberg when he was healthy. His injury riddled career was depressing to watch when I was in my teens and twenties. Beautiful game when healthy.

No, players like Cash were natural targets for Becker, a power player who had a big serve-big return combo.

As for Edberg, he was basically a better version of Cash, even peak to peak, so we can expect Stefan to prevail most of the time.

 

[Winners or Errors]

No, players like Cash were natural targets for Becker, a power player who had a big serve-big return combo.

As for Edberg, he was basically a better version of Cash, even peak to peak, so we can expect Stefan to prevail most of the time.

Look at the H2H. It fits the injury narrative. Cash was a great player cut down by injury.

 

[Mustard]

Cash was very good and troublesome for Lendl, but not in the same class as Becker and Edberg - even when at his best.

The 1987 Wimbledon final saw Cash play for large parts of the final as well as McEnroe did in the 1984 Wimbledon final.

 

[adil1972]

Was there british tabloid heading after becker or stich WB title something like this

German scud missiles land on wimbledon center court

Post # 3600

 

[Cashman]

No, players like Cash were natural targets for Becker, a power player who had a big serve-big return combo.

As for Edberg, he was basically a better version of Cash, even peak to peak, so we can expect Stefan to prevail most of the time.

lol. I was wondering when your hot take would show up. Did not disappoint

 

[NedStark]

lol. I was wondering when your hot take would show up. Did not disappoint

Becker’s H2H against non-power players definitely supports my point.

 

[buscemi]

Becker’s H2H against non-power players definitely supports my point.

I feel like Edberg is the slightly better version of Cash, with their five set tussle in the 1987 Australian Open final being a good representation of their respective levels. Obviously, Edberg's H2H with Becker is complicated, with Becker having a big lead overall, but Edberg winning three of their four matches at Majors.

I kind of consider Rostagno the poor man's version of Edberg/Cash. His H2H was 1-2 against Becker:

-Becker beat Rostagno, 6-4, 7-6 in Cincinnati in 1987 on the way to the final, where he lost to Edberg.​

-We all know the 1989 match. The best version of Becker at the U.S. Open was down double match point to Rostagno in the fourth set before he was somewhat saved by a net cord.​

-Rostagno beat Becker, 7-6, 4-6, 6-3 in Tokyo on carpet in 1991 a week before Becker would win Stockholm Masters, beating Sampras/Courier/Edberg.​

 

[BeatlesFan]

I feel like Edberg is a slightly better version of Cash.

I have to strongly dissent. Edberg was clearly the far, far greater player on all surfaces and his stats eloquently prove it. There's no comparison:

Stefan: 6 slams, ranked #1, 41 career titles

Cash: 1 slam, ranked #6, 6 career titles.

Comparing Pat Cash to an ATG like Stefan is like saying "Boris was a slightly better version of Stich."

 

[buscemi]

I have to strongly dissent. Edberg was clearly the far, far greater player on all surfaces and his stats eloquently prove it. There's no comparison:

Stefan: 6 slams, ranked #1, 41 career titles

Cash: 1 slam, ranked #6, 6 career titles.

Comparing Pat Cash to an ATG like Stefan is like saying "Boris was a slightly better version of Stich."

To clarify, I meant that Edberg was a slightly better version of Cash before Cash's injuries really started derailing his career in 1988. Up to that point, Cash had won 1987 Wimbledon while Edberg had won the 1985 Australian Open and the 1987 Australian Open, beating Cash in that five set final. That final was also the difference in their H2H, with the two splitting their other 2 matches 2-2.

You don't beat peak Lendl in three straight matches at Majors without a ton of talent. Cash had skills in spades, but just couldn't stay healthy.

 

[Mustard]

I feel like Edberg is the slightly better version of Cash, with their five set tussle in the 1987 Australian Open final being a good representation of their respective levels.

On the same court a month earlier, in the 1986 Davis Cup final, Cash beat Edberg in straight sets, 13-11, 13-11, 6-4.

 

[buscemi]

On the same court a month earlier, in the 1986 Davis Cup final, Cash beat Edberg in straight sets, 13-11, 13-11, 6-4.

Right. That definitely fits with there not being much difference between the two before Cash's body gave out.

 

[abmk]

I understand why people who did not watch Cash play think this - Cash had a truly horrific career with injuries and played many more matches hampered by them than he did at his true level

for example the three straight sets wins of Becker you refer to were:

Queens 1985 - Cash struggling with a back injury that would force him off the circuit for 9 months after Wimbledon

Wimbledon 1988 - Cash again struggling with back issues, took a month off after the tournament then came back and injured his foot during the North American hardcourts

Wimbledon 1990 - Cash post-achilles injury, was no longer a top player


I am not knocking Becker or Edberg and obviously I am not saying that Cash would have won six slams if he had stayed injury free, but he was easily mixing with the top guys in the world when he was fit

I have watched some matches of Cash - though not live obviously.

There is a good reason why I gave these examples:

While Cash beat Lendl in 4 sets in AO 87, Edberg beat him in 5 sets there.
While Cash beat Lendl in 5 sets in AO 88, Wilander beat him in 5 sets there.
So you can't use Cash wasn't at his best or close to it in those slams for example.

Cash obviously didn't come close to Becker's serve+ground stroke power even if a better volleyer and didn't come close to Edberg's returning/BH. Hence why I'd say he's not in the same class. Sure he could be very competitive vs top guys when at his best, but doesn't mean he's in the same class as he'd lose more often than not. Not very dissmilar from Rafter in terms of level.

As far as the injury thing goes, Cash won 3 of his 4 matches at Wim 88 in straight sets easily. No mention of any issues in the articles I've read.
Cash played Canada 88 a month after Wimbledon - which is typical for many players.

 

[jrepac]

To clarify, I meant that Edberg was a slightly better version of Cash before Cash's injuries really started derailing his career in 1988. Up to that point, Cash had won 1987 Wimbledon while Edberg had won the 1985 Australian Open and the 1987 Australian Open, beating Cash in that five set final. That final was also the difference in their H2H, with the two splitting their other 2 matches 2-2.

You don't beat peak Lendl in three straight matches at Majors without a ton of talent. Cash had skills in spades, but just couldn't stay healthy.

On a given day, Cash could play w/the best of them. The '87 W win was super impressive. However, he did not have the level week in and week out and as many have said, injuries held him back. If he had remained injury free, I think he might have bagged a few more slams. I'd still put Boris and Stefan ahead of him, but it's not like Cash was a piker by any stretch.

 

[jrepac]

I have watched some matches of Cash - though not live obviously.

There is a good reason why I gave these examples:

While Cash beat Lendl in 4 sets in AO 87, Edberg beat him in 5 sets there.
While Cash beat Lendl in 5 sets in AO 88, Wilander beat him in 5 sets there.
So you can't use Cash wasn't at his best or close to it in those slams for example.

Cash obviously didn't come close to Becker's serve+ground stroke power even if a better volleyer and didn't come close to Edberg's returning/BH. Hence why I'd say he's not in the same class. Sure he could be very competitive vs top guys when at his best, but doesn't mean he's in the same class as he'd lose more often than not. Not very dissmilar from Rafter in terms of level.

As far as the injury thing goes, Cash won 3 of his 4 matches at Wim 88 in straight sets easily. No mention of any issues in the articles I've read.
Cash played Canada 88 a month after Wimbledon - which is typical for many players.

Cash actually did well against baseliners like Lendl, Wilander and Connors. If his serve and volley game was on, he could give them all sorts of problems. I just think Stefan did it better than he did, second only maybe to Mac (in his era)

 

[GuyForget]

I have to strongly dissent. Edberg was clearly the far, far greater player on all surfaces and his stats eloquently prove it. There's no comparison:

Stefan: 6 slams, ranked #1, 41 career titles

Cash: 1 slam, ranked #6, 6 career titles.

Comparing Pat Cash to an ATG like Stefan is like saying "Boris was a slightly better version of Stich."

err that's a total insult to Stich, Stich's in a different league to Cash, + just as good as Becker on his day, winning H2H against Sampras including a YE final, sth Becker could never have dreamed of doing. Obviously Becker greater career, but equal in talent + Stich also made a French final

 

[Vincent-C]

Stich's record against Agassi is worth noting, though.

 

[GuyForget]

as is Becker's ..

 

[calculus]

Indeed, H2H between Cash and Lendl is very interesting, they played 8 times, 7 were in GS. While Lendl dominated the first 4 matches (all in GS), Cash got him in the next 3 GS matches. I don't recall seeing this type of H2H between any other players.

Given the elements that define professional tennis at that age (racket/string, court speed, ball etc), it's a tall task to beat a in-state top notch serve and volleyer outside clay court. Lendl admitted that he always felt uncomfortable playing with Edberg. So Cash is certainly the type of player that can cause Lendl trouble. Cash recalled that one time Lendl torn up his new pair of shoes in locker room, probably just showing off a dry sense of humor. Well, Lendl certainly failed to get his humor across. Ever since then, Cash can't wait to beat Lendl to return the favor. So, humor or not, never mess up with other people's shoes, especially new one.

 

[Mustard]

as is Becker's ..

Becker has had some success against Agassi though (especially 1989 Davis Cup and 1995 Wimbledon), even though Agassi won considerably more. Stich had nothing against Agassi, a complete nightmare matchup by Stich's own admission.

 

[Mustard]

Indeed, H2H between Cash and Lendl is very interesting, they played 8 times, 7 were in GS. While Lendl dominated the first 4 matches (all in GS), Cash got him in the next 3 GS matches. I don't recall seeing this type of H2H between any other players.

Cash vs. Lendl was 6 matches in majors out of 8 matches played, the other two in Sydney. Lendl won both the Sydney matches in 1986 and 1987. Lendl won the first 3 matches in majors (1983 Wimbledon, 1983 Australian Open, 1984 US Open), and Cash's 3 wins over Lendl were 1987 Australian Open, 1987 Wimbledon and 1988 Australian Open.

I think a similar rivalry makeup was Nadal vs. Soderling. They met 6 times in majors out of 8 official matches played. Nadal won at the 2006 French Open, 2007 Wimbledon, 2010 French Open, 2010 Wimbledon and 2011 French Open, with Soderling winning at the 2009 French Open. Their other two matches were at 2009 Rome (won by Nadal), and 2009 YEC in London (won by Soderling).

Nadal and Hewitt met 11 times, 6 of them in majors.

 

[calculus]

Cash vs. Lendl was 6 matches in majors out of 8 matches played, the other two in Sydney. Lendl won both the Sydney matches in 1986 and 1987. Lendl won the first 3 matches in majors (1983 Wimbledon, 1983 Australian Open, 1984 US Open), and Cash's 3 wins over Lendl were 1987 Australian Open, 1987 Wimbledon and 1988 Australian Open.

I think a similar rivalry makeup was Nadal vs. Soderling. They met 6 times in majors out of 8 official matches played. Nadal won at the 2006 French Open, 2007 Wimbledon, 2010 French Open, 2010 Wimbledon and 2011 French Open, with Soderling winning at the 2009 French Open. Their other two matches were at 2009 Rome (won by Nadal), and 2009 YEC in London (won by Soderling).

Nadal and Hewitt met 11 times, 6 of them in majors.

Thanks for catching it. Yes, you are right. Their first 3 matches are in GS, the 4th one is at Sydney indoor.

 

[Cashman]

As far as the injury thing goes, Cash won 3 of his 4 matches at Wim 88 in straight sets easily. No mention of any issues in the articles I've read.
Cash played Canada 88 a month after Wimbledon - which is typical for many players.

Tennis Roundup : A Foot Injury Forces Pat Cash to Withdraw

Pat Cash has withdrawn from the Volvo tennis tournament next week at the Los Angeles Tennis Center at UCLA because of a foot injury.

www.latimes.com

Also bothered by a bad back, Cash has played only two tournaments since Wimbledon, where he lost to Boris Becker in the quarterfinals.

 

[Mainad]

Cash has gone on record as saying that he hated Lendl (called him a bully and a racist) and that playing against him was extra motivation to want to beat him which he did very successfully especially at 1987 Wimbledon.

 

[NAS]

At the 1987 Australian Open, if Lendl beat Cash in the SF, he would have faced Edberg in the final. Edberg had beaten Lendl in the 1985 Australian Open SF on the way to the title, but Lendl would go on to beat Edberg in the 1987 Wimbledon SF (before being beaten by Cash in the final). I'm going to tap Edberg here b/c he played great in four of his five finals at grass Majors and had that prior win over Lendl on Kooyong grass, which seemingly suited his game even better than Wimbledon grass.

At the 1988 Australian Open, if Lendl beat Cash in the SF, he would have faced Wilander in the final. Lendl had just beaten Wilander in the 1987 U.S. Open final but would lose to him in the 1988 U.S. Open final. This was Wilander's best year, and I think Rebound Ace suited his game better than Decoturf. I still tab Mats to take the final.

Finally, as Cashman notes, talent-wise, Cash was up there with Edberg and Becker if he didn't have all the injuries, and that stretch when he beat Lendl at those three Majors was when he was at his best. The fact that he could give Lendl trouble was evident when, as a 19 year-old, he took Lendl to a fifth set tiebreaker in that epic Super Saturday at the 1984 U.S. Open.

If Wilander did bring his sf first three set form I don't see Lendl beating Wilander in AO 88 final.
If I remember right Wilander did serve for the second set before loosing in tie brake, he was playing very good tennis in first three set

 

[BGod]

Lendl was Cash's pigeon in slams in the latter half of the 80s AO87 SF, W87 F, AO88 SF

Pat Cash VS Ivan Lendl | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis

Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

waste given that Cash obv not in the same class as Becker+Edberg. would Lendl have won these AO's if he's beaten Pat?
+ more generally, seems that Lendl couldn't dominate any of his major rivals in his career, aside from an ageing Mcenroe.
Losing overall H2H vs Edberg + in slams, Becker's biatch in slams, lost 2 US open finals to Connors, fairly even with Mac when Mac was still good, losing H2H vs Wilander in slam finals

As said, 2 of 3 on grass, the non-grass Slam match being fresh in Australia and Cash being at his absolute peak.

Raises a good debate between Cash and the other injury riddled career guys like del Potro, Hewitt, Soderling.

 

[abmk]

Tennis Roundup : A Foot Injury Forces Pat Cash to Withdraw

Pat Cash has withdrawn from the Volvo tennis tournament next week at the Los Angeles Tennis Center at UCLA because of a foot injury.

www.latimes.com

that doesn't really specify when the back issue happened, how severe

There is nothing about it in actual articles about the Wim 88 match between Becker/Cash.

examples ->

WIMBLEDON; Becker, Tops Cash In Straight Sets (Published 1988)

www.nytimes.com

Becker Leaves Cash in the Red : He Eliminates Defending Champion in Straight Sets

They traded cannon fire, nothing fancy, until there was nothing left but smoke on the water and, of course, the strawberry-tinged hulk, Boris Becker.

www.latimes.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1988/06/30/becker-ousts-cash-in-three/a795d924-9074-4039-81ff-db11478ef593/

 

[buscemi]

As said, 2 of 3 on grass, the non-grass Slam match being fresh in Australia and Cash being at his absolute peak.

Raises a good debate between Cash and the other injury riddled career guys like del Potro, Hewitt, Soderling.

True, 2/3 on grass, but that 3rd one on Rebound Ace was mighty impressive. Combine that with their prior Major match, on the original Super Saturday, with 19 year-old Cash taking Lendl to a fifth set tiebreaker, and it definitely makes you think Cash would have been huge trouble for Lendl in hard/grass had he stayed healthy.

 

[jrepac]

True, 2/3 on grass, but that 3rd one on Rebound Ace was mighty impressive. Combine that with their prior Major match, on the original Super Saturday, with 19 year-old Cash taking Lendl to a fifth set tiebreaker, and it definitely makes you think Cash would have been huge trouble for Lendl in hard/grass had he stayed healthy.

I've got to think w/out injuries he would have gone on to accomplish more. He was super impressive in that '84 semi....truly had Ivan on the ropes, which was no mean feat. '87 W may have been the best example of what he could have done, at peak levels. He was super precise on the S&V and incredibly steady from the baseline as well. I often compared him to the other Pat (Rafter) and in my mind argue about who was better? Rafter accomplished a bit more, no question, until injuries took him down as well.

 

[tennistiger]

Another main reason for his downfall after 1988 was the racket change from Prince to Yonex.

 

[jrepac]

Another main reason for his downfall after 1988 was the racket change from Prince to Yonex.

I always wondered why he made that change