Lendl v McEnroe

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Paul Murphy

Hall of Fame
Just watched McEnroe beat Lendl in a pro set in the "World Tennis Challenge" in Adelaide.
Former Australian player Wally Masur made the comment that ultimately McEnroe "couldn't handle Lendl's power".
He said that Lendl's power from the baseline was the key factor in Lendl compiling his winning H2H over McEnroe.
I've always thought the same - that ultimately that's what it came down to.
Interesting to hear one's view confirmed by a guy who was ranked as high as 15 and who played a total of 19 matches against both Lendl and Mc.
I suppose if anyone would know it would be someone like Masur rather than some amateur theorist.
 
Paul Murphy said:
Just watched McEnroe beat Lendl in a pro set in the "World Tennis Challenge" in Adelaide.
Former Australian player Wally Masur made the comment that ultimately McEnroe "couldn't handle Lendl's power".
He said that Lendl's power from the baseline was the key factor in Lendl compiling his winning H2H over McEnroe.
I've always thought the same - that ultimately that's what it came down to.
Interesting to hear one's view confirmed by a guy who was ranked as high as 15 and who played a total of 19 matches against both Lendl and Mc.
I suppose if anyone would know it would be someone like Masur rather than some amateur theorist.
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I do not agree that Mac could not handle Lendl's power.

Lendl probably has more power now with the modern power rackets and Mac just beat him. When Mac was at the top of the game, he handled and beat all types of players and can still do the same. Basically Mac dominated the 1st 1/2 of the 80s and Lendl owned the 2nd 1/2 of the 80s. Great allcourt and SV players actually have an easier time handling power since they are not trying to win a baseline blasting match but rather deflect the power and end the points moving forward or at the net !
 
joe sch said:
I do not agree that Mac could not handle Lendl's power.

Lendl probably has more power now with the modern power rackets and Mac just beat him. When Mac was at the top of the game, he handled and beat all types of players and can still do the same. Basically Mac dominated the 1st 1/2 of the 80s and Lendl owned the 2nd 1/2 of the 80s. Great allcourt and SV players actually have an easier time handling power since they are not trying to win a baseline blasting match but rather deflect the power and end the points moving forward or at the net !
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Wow... I don't know, joe... but I would agree that Mac had big issues with Lendl's power when they were real pros. I can't comment on their current play.

I didn't care for Lendl, nor Mac, but I do remember that when Lendl beat Mac, he blew him off the court, especially when Lendl adopted a topspin backhand in the mid 80's. This was amplified when they moved indoors when the ball moved even hotter than outdoors.

While Mac beat Lendl, especially early on, I contend that Mac's biggest problem with Lendl was the power issue.
 
Sorry I missed this. I thought they weren't gonna lay until Feb 28 in MSG. Anyway, I don't care for pro sets. I'd like to see them play best of three having a full 3rd set. No 10 point TB. I'd like to see fitness be an issue. I think John is fitter now than Ivan. Lendl looked a little chubby in the last pic I saw of him.
 
8F93W5 said:
Sorry I missed this. I thought they weren't gonna lay until Feb 28 in MSG. Anyway, I don't care for pro sets. I'd like to see them play best of three having a full 3rd set. No 10 point TB. I'd like to see fitness be an issue. I think John is fitter now than Ivan. Lendl looked a little chubby in the last pic I saw of him.
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I would agree that Mac is more fit now than Lendl... but knowing Lendl, he'll drop some lbs and the silly looking golf shirts :)
 
Carolina Racquet said:
I would agree that Mac is more fit now than Lendl... but knowing Lendl, he'll drop some lbs and the silly looking golf shirts :)
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Let's not forget that Lendl hasn't played tennis in like 15 years. All the guy did was play a ton of golf with Jimmy Arias lol. We'll see how competitive he gets on the senior circuit this year. When I read the subject of this thread on the board, the first image I got in my head was the youtube clip of Lendl cracking McEnroe in the chest with a forehand. It must have hurt although Mc did have a flair for the theatrical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xAPwx3z950
 
Mac could handle anybody's power. However, after his dominating year in 84, he lost some footspeed, so it was harder for him to cover the net with the same efficiency. That was the turning point in their rivalry.
 
Arafel said:
Mac could handle anybody's power. However, after his dominating year in 84, he lost some footspeed, so it was harder for him to cover the net with the same efficiency. That was the turning point in their rivalry.
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McEnroe had some back problems also that weakened his serve and movement.

Lendl mentioned how much McEnroe declined after he came back from his leave of absence.

Of course anyone would have some problems with Lendl's power but I think it was more because McEnroe declined as a player more than Lendl eventually getting to him with his great power.
 
pc1 said:
McEnroe had some back problems also that weakened his serve and movement.

Lendl mentioned how much McEnroe declined after he came back from his leave of absence.

Of course anyone would have some problems with Lendl's power but I think it was more because McEnroe declined as a player more than Lendl eventually getting to him with his great power.
Click to expand...

Ok... let's examine the Lendl power vs. Mac's movement issues... Wouldn't more power (ie hitting the ball harder) exploit movement problems, meaning Lendl's power overwhelmed Mac? Wouldn't it be harder for Mac to volley more powerful shots from the baseline?

If it wasn't Lendl's power... what was it? His toothy grin, great Adidas/Mizuno apparel or charming personality that beat up Mac starting in the mid-80's?

Power was Lendl's trademark (in addition to fitness, training and methodical preparation). Therefore, I agree with the wise Wally Masur on this one.
 
Carolina Racquet said:
Ok... let's examine the Lendl power vs. Mac's movement issues... Wouldn't more power (ie hitting the ball harder) exploit movement problems, meaning Lendl's power overwhelmed Mac? Wouldn't it be harder for Mac to volley more powerful shots from the baseline?

If it wasn't Lendl's power... what was it? His toothy grin, great Adidas/Mizuno apparel or charming personality that beat up Mac starting in the mid-80's?

Power was Lendl's trademark (in addition to fitness, training and methodical preparation). Therefore, I agree with the wise Wally Masur on this one.
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You got it.
My point was I'll take and accept the views of a former pro player who played against both players numerous times than the opinion of an amateur theorist, with the emphasis on "amateur".

As for the match I referred to, Lendl showed a few glimpses of the past - he hit a handful of forehand winners and one memorable backhand
down-the-line winner but essentially was well off the pace.
McEnroe signalled his intent by serving two aces in his first service game and unlike other matches in this event this one was played very seriously - both clearly wanted to win.
McEnroe is very active on the Seniors Tour and it showed as did Lendl's lack of matches.
He lost to Cash and Leconte on previous nights.

That poster who thinks he's missed the chance to see the two old warhorses in action - fear not - they're playing as the undercard to Sampras/Agassi at the end of nex month.
 
Carolina Racquet said:
Ok... let's examine the Lendl power vs. Mac's movement issues... Wouldn't more power (ie hitting the ball harder) exploit movement problems, meaning Lendl's power overwhelmed Mac? Wouldn't it be harder for Mac to volley more powerful shots from the baseline?

If it wasn't Lendl's power... what was it? His toothy grin, great Adidas/Mizuno apparel or charming personality that beat up Mac starting in the mid-80's?

Power was Lendl's trademark (in addition to fitness, training and methodical preparation). Therefore, I agree with the wise Wally Masur on this one.
Click to expand...

Of course Lendl's power overwhelmed McEnroe but I was trying to say that it wouldn't have been as effective against a McEnroe who could move better. The McEnroe of 1984 would have handled it much better as well as giving Lendl more problems on the serve and the volley.
 
joe sch said:
I do not agree that Mac could not handle Lendl's power.
!
Click to expand...

Yes....this has been gone over ad nauseum...but I think that myth has been debunked for the most part.

There were many factors leading to Lendl's later dominance, but clearly, Mac was not the same player in his later years. A fact even Lendl openly acknowledged in interviews in the mid to late 80's. (as PC mentions)

We also see that Mac could play very well against Lendl's power in their give and take earlier....Lendl did NOT suddenly become more powerful, he always was.

Silly thread. A troll I think...with all the "Masur KNOWS, not you silly amateurs rhetoric". The OP just wants to get people going.
 
Lendl's recent play

I have only seen a few brief clips of Ivan's recent play. The things he seems to lack now are his top spin backhand and his excellent movement.

It really great that he is back. He was sorely missed (by myself anyway). Its not surprising that after 16 years out he is taking some time to get back to McEnroe's current level.

The thing that made playing him hard in the 80's was that there was no respite from his power. Balls were coming hard from his forward wing and his backhand wing. Now players can angle balls to his backhand knowing that they will probably get a slice back. He needs to work hard in getting his backhand back.

Regarding movement, well we all slow down with age, and after so long off it isn't surprising. He has done really well getting his weight down. In Australia now he looks very much slimmer. His back probably doesn't help with the movement issues.

Great to see him back.
 
Datacipher said:
Yes....this has been gone over ad nauseum...but I think that myth has been debunked for the most part.

There were many factors leading to Lendl's later dominance, but clearly, Mac was not the same player in his later years. A fact even Lendl openly acknowledged in interviews in the mid to late 80's. (as PC mentions)

We also see that Mac could play very well against Lendl's power in their give and take earlier....Lendl did NOT suddenly become more powerful, he always was.

Silly thread. A troll I think...with all the "Masur KNOWS, not you silly amateurs rhetoric". The OP just wants to get people going.
Click to expand...

Not trying to get anyone going except you and in that I've succeeded.
Thanks for that.
The post was aimed squarely at you.

I'll take the opinion of a professional tennis player and one with a pretty distinguished careeer who played both Mc and Lendl numerous times over the likes of you.
Masur's view was clear and unequivocal on the issue of power.

I find it extraordinary that somehow we are to accept your view over that of a former world No.15 - I suppose it's that arrogance of yours that I find so revealing and yet so amusing.
 
Tennis Dunce said:
Let's get real here...Mac was knee-deep in Tatum O' Neil and drugs or he would have pwned 1985 and '86 as well.
Click to expand...

True, I was gonna say it if you didn't beat me to it. She was the beginning of the end for him. Not that she's a bad person, She's not. I enjoyed her book Paper Life. I feel sorry for her.
 
McEnroe could handle Lendl's power, when he was playing well. He was not the same physically or mentally after about 1984-1985. Yet, the shift towards graphite frames, in my opinion, made things fundamentally more difficult for him. Unlike the wood frames, graphite allowed baseliners to rifle passing shots and returns back to him with interest. Lendl was a great baseliner, who in my opinion may have been one of the greatest baseliners ever, along with players such as Laver, Rosewall, Borg, Connors, Agassi and Nadal. Yet, McEnroe during his best years could handle Lendl's power, but he was never going to win rallies that often, trying to rally with Borg or Lendl. He was most successful when he could dictate at net, serve great, and also return very well, among other things. McEnroe was an all time great too. Listen to him during the FO match below, it's vintage McEnroe.


1983 Wimbledon Semifinal, McEnroe d. Lendl 7-6, 6-4, 6-4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XuXneRLmEU


1981 French Open Quarterfinal, Lendl d. McEnroe 4-4, 6-4, 7-5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3_CChElYhM&NR=1
 
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Tennis Dunce said:
Let's get real here...Mac was knee-deep in Tatum O' Neil and drugs or he would have pwned 1985 and '86 as well.
Click to expand...

Thank you. As someone who was around and actually watching matches live in 84, 84, 86, 87 etc...I can tell you that JMac was never the same after his little break from tennis and Tatum. Mac never had problem with anyone's power - as a matter of fact he lived off of other players power - he'd eat it up and redirect it. That was his game. But his game was all about timing and placement. And once you are just a little off of that - then everything else just starts to crumble. Bottom line is - he just was a little burned out on tennis perhaps - he didn't take fitness that seriously - and he got married to a crazy actress and life got kinda complicated. There were flashes of the 84 Mac - but he was never quite the same player.
 
I agree DNShade. Good post. He was never the same player after about 1984 and he could definitely handle a lot of power. I do think he thrived with wood frames vs. wood frames though. He was the last player to win a major with a wood frame, in the 1981 US Open vs. Borg. Here's Kriek at the '82 AO, and then Connors won in '82 with his T-2000, followed by Lendl and McEnroe in '83 with graphite frames. We didn't see wood frames winning majors 1981.
 
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when lendl beat mac in french open final, mcenroe was easily handling lendl's power. Lendl then changed his game and won
 
Datacipher said:
Yes....this has been gone over ad nauseum...but I think that myth has been debunked for the most part.

There were many factors leading to Lendl's later dominance, but clearly, Mac was not the same player in his later years. A fact even Lendl openly acknowledged in interviews in the mid to late 80's. (as PC mentions)

We also see that Mac could play very well against Lendl's power in their give and take earlier....Lendl did NOT suddenly become more powerful, he always was.

Silly thread. A troll I think...with all the "Masur KNOWS, not you silly amateurs rhetoric". The OP just wants to get people going.
Click to expand...

Agree. Thanks
 
pc1 said:
Of course Lendl's power overwhelmed McEnroe but I was trying to say that it wouldn't have been as effective against a McEnroe who could move better. The McEnroe of 1984 would have handled it much better as well as giving Lendl more problems on the serve and the volley.
Click to expand...

It wasn't just a matter of Lendl's power; Mac could deflect power quite well when the rest of his game was firing on all cylinders. But, after '84, he was not quite as quick, the volleys not as sharp, etc., etc. And, Lendl was hitting his stride come the late 80's. Shoot, even an "elderly" Connors started beating McEnroe again at the tail end of the 80's....that's how much he had slipped.
 
li0scc0 said:
Ah! So we are not allowed to question any ATP Tour player, no matter what they say about tennis?
Click to expand...

You can do whatever you like.

My point is that I will take the opinion of this ATP player over people who have never played on the Tour, particularly that of one self-appointed "expert" on here.

Masur played both Mc and Lendl 19 times over a lengthy period and now earns a living as a commentator - he is eminently qualified to judge.

My point is that I'll take his opinion over that of someone on a tennis website any day.
 
Paul Murphy said:
You can do whatever you like.

My point is that I will take the opinion of this ATP player over people who have never played on the Tour, particularly that of one self-appointed "expert" on here.

Masur played both Mc and Lendl 19 times over a lengthy period and now earns a living as a commentator - he is eminently qualified to judge.

My point is that I'll take his opinion over that of someone on a tennis website any day.
Click to expand...

I do know what you meant. The problem is these ex-pros often don't really know a lot about tennis. Some do, some don't. No idea if Masur is one who does. I certainly know McEnroe says some things that are idiotic, and Wilander is becoming a caricature of himself. Jensen is perhaps the worst commentator on the planet, and...and...and....
 
im in the minority but i also think mcenroe had a problem with lendls power, and also think lendls power really developed from '85 on when he got fitter & lost 15lbs of fat. he was moving in position better, hitting a more clean, accurate ball hitting his strokes harder w/ the addition to the topspin backhand. you could say mcenroe slowed down from '86 on, and thats why he had a problem with lendls power, but he still had a problem with it. from '85-86 on, power tennis was really beginning w/ becker, lendl, edberg, agassi, etc..
 
li0scc0 said:
I do know what you meant. The problem is these ex-pros often don't really know a lot about tennis. Some do, some don't. No idea if Masur is one who does. I certainly know McEnroe says some things that are idiotic, and Wilander is becoming a caricature of himself. Jensen is perhaps the worst commentator on the planet, and...and...and....
Click to expand...

Some are good and some chase controversy and headlines that's for sure.

But Masur is very measured and thoughtful - his career has included a lengthy term as coach of Australia's Davis Cup team and he doesn't go for rash statements.
On the subject of Lendl's power he also said Lendl became more powerful as he got older, stronger and fittter and developed his game.
That's why the argument mounted by Datacipher is so flawed.
Yes, Lendl was always strong and hit with power but his power (according to Masur) increased enormously as he developed as a player and it's that power which became too much for McEnroe to handle.
Amusingly the argument posed by Datacipher is that McEnroe changed as a player yet he allows for no such development in Lendl - what a selective little world he inhabits.
 
big ted said:
im in the minority but i also think mcenroe had a problem with lendls power, and also think lendls power really developed from '85 on when he got fitter & lost 15lbs of fat. he was moving in position better, hitting a more clean, accurate ball hitting his strokes harder w/ the addition to the topspin backhand. you could say mcenroe slowed down from '86 on, and thats why he had a problem with lendls power, but he still had a problem with it. from '85-86 on, power tennis was really beginning w/ becker, lendl, edberg, agassi, etc..
Click to expand...

Well said.
Power was the key factor.
 
Paul Murphy said:
You can do whatever you like.

My point is that I will take the opinion of this ATP player over people who have never played on the Tour, particularly that of one self-appointed "expert" on here.

Masur played both Mc and Lendl 19 times over a lengthy period and now earns a living as a commentator - he is eminently qualified to judge.

My point is that I'll take his opinion over that of someone on a tennis website any day.
Click to expand...

Then there's no need for you to start all these pro-Lendl troll threads is there?
 
Paul Murphy said:
Amusingly the argument posed by Datacipher is that McEnroe changed as a player yet he allows for no such development in Lendl - what a selective little world he inhabits.
Click to expand...

Actually I discussed that at length, as everyone knows I do, in the previous threads you trolled, which I gave links to.

In this discussion, I merely said there were many factors. However, Mac wasn't the same...who said that? Lendl. Yes....Lendl over you, Masur, and everyone. Appeal to authority...that's all that matters. THE END.
TROLL BE GONE. LOL
 
Datacipher said:
Actually I discussed that at length, as everyone knows I do, in the previous threads you trolled, which I gave links to.

In this discussion, I merely said there were many factors. However, Mac wasn't the same...who said that? Lendl. Yes....Lendl over you, Masur, and everyone. Appeal to authority...that's all that matters. THE END.
TROLL BE GONE. LOL
Click to expand...

Firstly, three frenzied posts in sucession from you - how delightful. lol

Secondly, I'm not going anywhere, it's not THE END because you say so - apart from anything else you keep coming back and there's no way I won't keep you company.
Of course if you don't come back I'll enjoy that too.

Thirdly, as Masur says power was the key - Lendl's power increased over time through better fitness, strength etc
McEnroe was simply overwhelmed by sheer power and he wasn't the only one.
I agree with Masur.
 
Mick said:
it's good to have lendl back so we can enjoy the modern mcenroe-lendl matches.
Click to expand...

Agreed, though on the strength of the three matches I saw Lendl play in Adelaide this week (Cash, Leconte and McEnroe), he's got a long way to go in terms of movement and fitness.
 
i agree lendl has a long way to go and dont think he can dominate in the seniors matches. first, i dont think his body weight during his peak years was his natural weight so i dont think he'll get there again. he monitored every calorie and exercised like a madman and im sure hes not going to do that anymore. and taking the 15 years off while the others havent taken any time off wont help. i also think the others have an extra incentive to beat him to get back at what he did to alot of them on the regular tour. he wasnt that well liked among the more brash players like cash, mcenroe, etc. so i dont think theyre going to show much mercy when they play him, as oppossed to someone like borg, who it looks like mcenroe takes it easy on him a little sometimes. when he played wilander, it looked like he was going a little easy on lendl, and mats is one of the lower ranked players on that roster. anyway im glad hes back tho and hope he surprises me because he is one of my favorite players
 
big ted said:
i agree lendl has a long way to go and dont think he can dominate in the seniors matches. first, i dont think his body weight during his peak years was his natural weight so i dont think he'll get there again. he monitored every calorie and exercised like a madman and im sure hes not going to do that anymore. and taking the 15 years off while the others havent taken any time off wont help. i also think the others have an extra incentive to beat him to get back at what he did to alot of them on the regular tour. he wasnt that well liked among the more brash players like cash, mcenroe, etc. so i dont think theyre going to show much mercy when they play him, as oppossed to someone like borg, who it looks like mcenroe takes it easy on him a little sometimes. when he played wilander, it looked like he was going a little easy on lendl, and mats is one of the lower ranked players on that roster. anyway im glad hes back tho and hope he surprises me because he is one of my favorite players
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I'm hoping we'll see him play in Melbourne during the AO.
He assisted in the draw and I'm not sure what reason he'd have to stay in Melbourne if not to play some Seniors matches.
 
I also think that by '85 he really tired of not being able to play Borg, who is a player who probably would have been a relevant one probably until 86 or so, at least garnering 2 or 3 more French Opens. Mac has stated innumerable times how he missed Borg...how their rivalry could have been a truly epic one...fought with graphite instead of wood!
Damn sometimes I wish Borg didn't quit...the hundreds of matches that we missed out on.
 
Paul Murphy said:
Some are good and some chase controversy and headlines that's for sure.

But Masur is very measured and thoughtful - his career has included a lengthy term as coach of Australia's Davis Cup team and he doesn't go for rash statements.
On the subject of Lendl's power he also said Lendl became more powerful as he got older, stronger and fittter and developed his game.
That's why the argument mounted by Datacipher is so flawed.
Yes, Lendl was always strong and hit with power but his power (according to Masur) increased enormously as he developed as a player and it's that power which became too much for McEnroe to handle.
Amusingly the argument posed by Datacipher is that McEnroe changed as a player yet he allows for no such development in Lendl - what a selective little world he inhabits.
Click to expand...

Paul - I agree in ALL points.
 
I also think that no one seems to mention is that Lendl could have won more slams towards the late 80's and to mid 90's if Ivan was'nt so fanactical about golf. Michael Chang mentions in an interview is that towards the end of Ivan's career Ivan would play many rounds of golf between tournaments. Lendl proably got burnt out from tennis like Mc did. I think Ivan should have stuck to golf now because he was somewhat successfull playing mintours.
 
Mc vs Lendl it was a matter of who was fitter to impose its game.Mc fed on power and used his wrist and talent , plus superb anticipation to redirect power and many of his volleys were off a great baseline stroke.But he had to be fit to use his tolls vs a man always on shape like Lendl.

Most of the finals they played against each other, except FO 1984 and WCT 1983 would be a matter of dominance, and if any of the two was slighty more confident or fit, would win in straight sets.It is something that always intringued me, because they were so close but I think, since they hated each other so much, at the end it was a question of who got into the others mind first.

By the way, lendl vs Mc is one of the greatest rivalries, as good as Borg vs Mc or Connors vs Mc.
 
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