Lendl v McEnroe

Up until 1984 Mac owned Lendl and had no problems at all with Lendl's power. When Mac decided to take his break and got caught up with drugs, he ended what might have been one of the greatest careers of them all.

Mac was an artist the likes of which will never be seen again in this sport. His instinctive creativity was what made him the artist that he was.
 
people forget that mcenroe was still great in 1985. not quite to the 1984 level (one of the greatest years in tennis history) but still very good even though he didn't win a grand slam. he beat lendl just a few weeks before lendl beat him in the final of the USO.
 
cigrmaster said:
Up until 1984 Mac owned Lendl and had no problems at all with Lendl's power. When Mac decided to take his break and got caught up with drugs, he ended what might have been one of the greatest careers of them all.

Mac was an artist the likes of which will never be seen again in this sport. His instinctive creativity was what made him the artist that he was.
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Actually Mac always struggled with Lendl, eg in 82 I think it went 5-0 to Lendl, yet at the same time Lendl couldnt handle Connors. I always found that an interesting fact, Connors struggled with Mac, Mac struggled with Lendl , and Lendl couldnt handle Connors, I discount any Connors Lendl encounters after 84 as Connors was well past his prime while Lendl was in the middle of his.
 
Cuculain said:
Actually Mac always struggled with Lendl, eg in 82 I think it went 5-0 to Lendl, yet at the same time Lendl couldnt handle Connors. I always found that an interesting fact, Connors struggled with Mac, Mac struggled with Lendl , and Lendl couldnt handle Connors, I discount any Connors Lendl encounters after 84 as Connors was well past his prime while Lendl was in the middle of his.
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And i couldnt handle of them.. Pat Cash was my hero.
 
Cuculain said:
Actually Mac always struggled with Lendl, eg in 82 I think it went 5-0 to Lendl, yet at the same time Lendl couldnt handle Connors. I always found that an interesting fact, Connors struggled with Mac, Mac struggled with Lendl , and Lendl couldnt handle Connors, I discount any Connors Lendl encounters after 84 as Connors was well past his prime while Lendl was in the middle of his.
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At a guess, I'd say it was proably more because Connors intimidated him mentally/emotionally. Technically Lendl had a lot more margin for error in his game than Connors, but at least in the early days, he was quite weak up top, and I'm sure Connors would have smelled that miles away.
 
rod99 said:
people forget that mcenroe was still great in 1985. not quite to the 1984 level (one of the greatest years in tennis history) but still very good even though he didn't win a grand slam. he beat lendl just a few weeks before lendl beat him in the final of the USO.
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He won Wimbledon, the USO and the Masters in 1984 and went 82-3. He pulled his hamstring at the end on 1984 and lost some of the lightening quickness that helped make him great plus by 1985 almost all pros were using graphite frames.


In 1985 he got destroyed by the non great Kevin Curren in straight sets in the Wimbledon QF. I don't care if Curren was "serving out of his mind that day", Mac had made five straight Wimbledon finals.

He struggled mightily against Mats Wilander (who was not a power player) and the heat in the 1985 USO SF. It was a match that changed his career. Lendl beat him in straight sets the next day in the final.

Brad Gilbert (yes, that Brad Gilbert) Dispatched him the 1st rd of The Masters. And again Gilbert was not a power player.

You are right he was still very good in 1985. Beat Lendl on a number of occasions and had an excellent year by anyone's standards but he was not a great player in 1985 and never would be again.
 
Paul Murphy said:
You can do whatever you like.

My point is that I will take the opinion of this ATP player over people who have never played on the Tour, particularly that of one self-appointed "expert" on here.

Masur played both Mc and Lendl 19 times over a lengthy period and now earns a living as a commentator - he is eminently qualified to judge.

My point is that I'll take his opinion over that of someone on a tennis website any day.
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Did you also take the opinion of the majority in baseball who were saying the players werent roiding during the 90s and early 2000s? I was accusing Aroid, Bonds, McGuire, Clemens, Pujols and many many others of cheating but the "experts" who formerly played the game and were now announcing kept denying the wide spread usage of PEDs.
 
rod99 said:
people forget that mcenroe was still great in 1985. not quite to the 1984 level (one of the greatest years in tennis history) but still very good even though he didn't win a grand slam. he beat lendl just a few weeks before lendl beat him in the final of the USO.
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Yes, Mc did beat him at Stratton a couple of weeks before the Open in '85. But you can't really use that as evidence that Mc was still playing good in '85 as Lendl never really did well there. The altitude bothered him and he complained the balls were traveling too fast. If you watch that match he was schenking every other ball.
 
subban said:
Yes, Mc did beat him at Stratton a couple of weeks before the Open in '85. But you can't really use that as evidence that Mc was still playing good in '85 as Lendl never really did well there. The altitude bothered him and he complained the balls were traveling too fast. If you watch that match he was schenking every other ball.
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yes '85 seemed to be the year of the beginning of his demise. he started off with brilliance winning the year end masters over lendl (it was held in january), but over the year had more trouble..he ALMOST lost to shlomo glickstein in the 1st round of the usopen! you could tell he was burned out - he was more irritable and mabye a little thinner than before. he said he was going to take time off at the end of the year, but borg talked him into playing the australian open to try to get the no1 ranking back (which then was played in december). not only did that backfire, he lost to slobodan zivo..sp? losing 6-0 in the 5th set and claims he was dissapointed to say that was the only match he ever really gave up in at the end. then in jan, when losing to brad gilbert, and shouted "you dont belong on the same court as me!", thats when his sabbaticals started.

i think in the end, mcenroe put too much self imposed pressure to be a perfectionist and drove himself nuts. i read his book, and part of it sounds like it came from his upbringing, his parents were lawyers/professionals. he said he told his mom in '86 he was contemplating retiring and his mom replied in the nature of " well what else are u gonna do?? u cant do nothing..."
 
big ted said:
yes '85 seemed to be the year of the beginning of his demise. he started off with brilliance winning the year end masters over lendl (it was held in january), but over the year had more trouble..he ALMOST lost to shlomo glickstein in the 1st round of the usopen! you could tell he was burned out - he was more irritable and mabye a little thinner than before. he said he was going to take time off at the end of the year, but borg talked him into playing the australian open to try to get the no1 ranking back (which then was played in december). not only did that backfire, he lost to slobodan zivo..sp? losing 6-0 in the 5th set and claims he was dissapointed to say that was the only match he ever really gave up in at the end. then in jan, when losing to brad gilbert, and shouted "you dont belong on the same court as me!", thats when his sabbaticals started.

i think in the end, mcenroe put too much self imposed pressure to be a perfectionist and drove himself nuts. i read his book, and part of it sounds like it came from his upbringing, his parents were lawyers/professionals. he said he told his mom in '86 he was contemplating retiring and his mom replied in the nature of " well what else are u gonna do?? u cant do nothing..."
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Why are you cherry picking Mac book and leaving out the fact that despite how own huge ego he admitted that when he tried his comeback " The combination of fitness and racquet technology left him out in the cold" I don't need to go back and watch post 1984 Mac because I remember him: A step and then two steps slower than '84. A first serve that no longer bailed him out and a second serve that got creamed by the top players. I also remember him getting passed left and right on the very same approach shots that were money earlier in his career.

And he wasn't that old.
 
Paul Murphy said:
You can do whatever you like.

My point is that I will take the opinion of this ATP player over people who have never played on the Tour, particularly that of one self-appointed "expert" on here.

Masur played both Mc and Lendl 19 times over a lengthy period and now earns a living as a commentator - he is eminently qualified to judge.

My point is that I'll take his opinion over that of someone on a tennis website any day.
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While you don't deserve to be attacked for accepting Masur's opinion, others don't necessarily have to buy into it.

Masur's word on this matter isn't golden. An argument or observation can only as good as its premises, rather than as good as the person who utters the words.

You're using a kind of 'argument from authority' here. Someone in supposed authority still has the onus to make a strong argument. Without that obligation, we can simply buy into anything that 'authorities' say, without criticism.

The fact is that players aren't impartial. And many of them make for very poor scouts.

That being said, Masur's statement might have some validity. At the same time, Mac's struggles with Lendl coincide with his fall from the top of the rankings and temporary retirement.
 
I think maybe a better argument one can make about Mac's game after his temporary retirement is that it never returned to its former glory due to an increased emphasis on power in professional tennis.

Rather than just pointing at Lendl and his power, one can look at a general trend and probably make a good argument that the game changed and no longer suited Mac as well as before.

However I don't know if it's possible to prove this. And one can make the counter-argument that Mac's downfall was a combination of age/mileage and personal life/retirement.

Maybe a bit of both. Worth speculating about.
 
pmerk34 said:
Why are you cherry picking Mac book and leaving out the fact that despite how own huge ego he admitted that when he tried his comeback " The combination of fitness and racquet technology left him out in the cold" I don't need to go back and watch post 1984 Mac because I remember him: A step and then two steps slower than '84. A first serve that no longer bailed him out and a second serve that got creamed by the top players. I also remember him getting passed left and right on the very same approach shots that were money earlier in his career.

And he wasn't that old.
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i thought i was agreeing with you that he was worse in '85
 
big ted said:
i thought i was agreeing with you that he was worse in '85
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Well you were but chalked it all up to some mental problems. Mac's mental problems stemmed from the fact that he started losing to players he once owned and he couldn't handle it.
 
CyBorg said:
I think maybe a better argument one can make about Mac's game after his temporary retirement is that it never returned to its former glory due to an increased emphasis on power in professional tennis.

Rather than just pointing at Lendl and his power, one can look at a general trend and probably make a good argument that the game changed and no longer suited Mac as well as before.

However I don't know if it's possible to prove this. And one can make the counter-argument that Mac's downfall was a combination of age/mileage and personal life/retirement.

Maybe a bit of both. Worth speculating about.
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Just look at the '84 USO final and then '85 USO final....
 
One thing I never see mentioned is how drastically the look of John's game changed in such a short period of time. He was always a very idiosyncratic, nervous(tics) looking player, but the dominant Mcenroe(79-84) had a wide base on his serve that launched him into the court. His groundstrokes were fairly long and fluid and he could hit outright winners. A good example to watch would be the 1984 Masters final vs. Lendl. By the 85 Open his game had already started to change. Feet closer together on the serve, groundstrokes starting to look funky. I find it hard to believe in seven months Lendl's power had passed him by. After the sabbactical in 1986 his game looks completely different. If my memory is correct a good match to watch would be against Brad Gilbert at the 86 San Francisco Open. Now Brad wasn't going to overpower anyone, and John won the match, but the look of his game is completely different. Short, choppy groundstrokes, and while his serve was probably the same speed, it did not carry him so far into the court causing his volleys to not be nearly as effective. For whatever reason John's idiosyncrasies(spelling?) caused him to start messing with all of his strokes to the detriment of his game.
 
geez, you guys act like Mac was losing to lendl or becker every other week after his sabbatical.

I have his losses to Annacone('86 USO) & Woodforde('88 USO) on dvd & part of his matches with Haarhuis('89 USO) & Masur('88 W) on tape.

The idea he lost any of those matches due to the 'increased power' in the game is almost comical. Have you seen Woodforde play? he could barely break an egg with his groundies. but Mac was moving like he was in quicksand that day.

Mac circa '84 would have destroyed all those players. There are a lot factors in why he declined so quickly(most of them off court issues), but sorry I'm not buying that the overall tour got considerably more powerful in a few months or years in the mid to late 80s. yeah Becker was something pretty unique(& pretty inconsistent, look up his 80s losses), but was Edberg or better yet, Pat Cash(1987 Wimbledon champion)? mac in his prime was no match for cash or edberg? seriously?

I read a recent interview where he says his biggest regret was not being more single-minded about tennis (a trait which he admires so much about in fed & nadal) he says he doesn't think he ever really reached his potential. just speculation on my part, but having an unplanned kid with your drug addict celebrity girlfriend when you are 25 years old & in your athletic prime was probably a big factor in not reaching your prime. maybe a bit more than lendl getting better(& they never even played each between the 1985 USO & 1987 Stratton Mountain, how the hell was Lendl the reason Mac declined in those 2 years??? because expert wally masur says so in 2011??)

Just look at the '84 USO final and then '85 USO final
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and just look at the '85 Volvo & '85 Canadian Open finals. Mac beats Lendl easily twice just a few weeks before the '85 USO & suddenly he can't handle Lendl's power that day? ok. I'm guessing mac's 4 hour match with wilander the day before the '85 uso final(in brutal heat) was a bit of a factor in his play that day. still if mac held on to that 5-2 1st set lead, my money would be on him pulling that match out(the whole 'losing 3 straight uso finals' thing would have really wore on lendl if he was down a set, imo)

had a wide base on his serve that launched him into the court. His groundstrokes were fairly long and fluid and he could hit outright winners. A good example to watch would be the 1984 Masters final vs. Lendl. By the 85 Open his game had already started to change. Feet closer together on the serve, groundstrokes starting to look funky
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good points. I have a lot of Mac on tape, he was just flying around the court in 1984(& teeing off on groundies, I know Mac is primarily remembered as a touch player today, but he wasn't really chipping & charging or hitting a lot of drop volleys in the '84 Wimbledon or '84 USO finals. he was, to quote Newcombe "ripping & charging" even off Lendl's serve. Newcombe said he had never seen anyone play like that before, he sounded a bit in awe & he doesn't seem like the type of guy easily impressed)

I came across a old NY Times article that said Mac pulled a hamstring at the end of 1984(made him withdraw from the Australian Open), who knows maybe that caused him to adjust his game a bit for 1985.
 
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The addition of talent, passion, personalities match up and charisma makes the 1980-1981 quator of Borg,Lendl,Connors and Mac a unique era amnong unique eras at the top.I am positively sure we never had and probably never will just a combination of electrical matches &rivalries among such a number of terrific tennis players.

Take any combination among those 4, you could never stop watching it; it gave tennis the final lift in terms of popularity and coverage.

Just a regular quator of Sampras-Agassi-Becker-Edberg in the early 80´s ( by the way, also 2 europeans and 2 americans) could match it, but, IMo, still a bit short of the early 80´s " fantastic four".
 
kiki said:
The addition of talent, passion, personalities match up and charisma makes the 1980-1981 quator of Borg,Lendl,Connors and Mac a unique era amnong unique eras at the top.I am positively sure we never had and probably never will just a combination of electrical matches &rivalries among such a number of terrific tennis players.

Take any combination among those 4, you could never stop watching it; it gave tennis the final lift in terms of popularity and coverage.

Just a regular quator of Sampras-Agassi-Becker-Edberg in the early 80´s ( by the way, also 2 europeans and 2 americans) could match it, but, IMo, still a bit short of the early 80´s " fantastic four".
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Sampras,Agassi,Becker,Edberg , of course, early 90´s.
 
FABULOUS FOUR QUARTETS

Taken by a full decade, and making their peak meet.It is a bit forced but still, a funny and enjoyable way of summarizing the best of recent tennis history

1960:Hoad,Rosewall,Laver and Gonzales

Emerson,Gimeno, Santana and Fraser as back ups

Ladies: Bueno,Court,King,Richey

1970 : Nastase,Ashe,Newcombe,Kodes

Roche,Smith,Panatta and Orantes as back ups

Ladies:King,Evert,Court,Goolagong

1980: Borg,Connors,Mc Enroe,Lendl

Clerc,Vilas,Gerulaitis,Tanner as back ups

Ladies:Navratilova,Evert,Mandlikova,Austin

Jaeger,Shriver,Jordan and Hanika as back ups

1990 : Sampras,Becker,Agassi,Edberg

Courier,Kuerten,Bruguera and Rafter as back ups

Ladies: Graf,Seles,Hingis and Davenport

back ups: Sánchez,Novotna,Sabatini and Martinez

2000 to 2010: Nadal,Federer,Safin,Hewitt

Djokovic,Roddick,Del Potro,Ferrero as back ups

ladies: Venus,Serena,Sharapova and Henin

Clijsters,Kuznetsova,Mauresmo and Capriati as back ups
 
Moose Malloy said:
geez, you guys act like Mac was losing to lendl or becker every other week after his sabbatical.

I have his losses to Annacone('86 USO) & Woodforde('88 USO) on dvd & part of his matches with Haarhuis('89 USO) & Masur('88 W) on tape.

The idea he lost any of those matches due to the 'increased power' in the game is almost comical. Have you seen Woodforde play? he could barely break an egg with his groundies. but Mac was moving like he was in quicksand that day.

Mac circa '84 would have destroyed all those players. There are a lot factors in why he declined so quickly(most of them off court issues), but sorry I'm not buying that the overall tour got considerably more powerful in a few months or years in the mid to late 80s. yeah Becker was something pretty unique(& pretty inconsistent, look up his 80s losses), but was Edberg or better yet, Pat Cash(1987 Wimbledon champion)? mac in his prime was no match for cash or edberg? seriously?

I read a recent interview where he says his biggest regret was not being more single-minded about tennis (a trait which he admires so much about in fed & nadal) he says he doesn't think he ever really reached his potential. just speculation on my part, but having an unplanned kid with your drug addict celebrity girlfriend when you are 25 years old & in your athletic prime was probably a big factor in not reaching your prime. maybe a bit more than lendl getting better(& they never even played each between the 1985 USO & 1987 Stratton Mountain, how the hell was Lendl the reason Mac declined in those 2 years??? because expert wally masur says so in 2011??)



and just look at the '85 Volvo & '85 Canadian Open finals. Mac beats Lendl easily twice just a few weeks before the '85 USO & suddenly he can't handle Lendl's power that day? ok. I'm guessing mac's 4 hour match with wilander the day before the '85 uso final(in brutal heat) was a bit of a factor in his play that day. still if mac held on to that 5-2 1st set lead, my money would be on him pulling that match out(the whole 'losing 3 straight uso finals' thing would have really wore on lendl if he was down a set, imo)



good points. I have a lot of Mac on tape, he was just flying around the court in 1984(& teeing off on groundies, I know Mac is primarily remembered as a touch player today, but he wasn't really chipping & charging or hitting a lot of drop volleys in the '84 Wimbledon or '84 USO finals. he was, to quote Newcombe "ripping & charging" even off Lendl's serve. Newcombe said he had never seen anyone play like that before, he sounded a bit in awe & he doesn't seem like the type of guy easily impressed)

I came across a old NY Times article that said Mac pulled a hamstring at the end of 1984(made him withdraw from the Australian Open), who knows maybe that caused him to adjust his game a bit for 1985.
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Mac himself stated in autobiography that the "increased fitness of the players plus the power caused by racquet technology left him out in the cold" post 1985, If an egotistical jerk like Mac can admit this in writing why can't you?
 
i suppose it is safe to say mac couldnt handle the new power tennis WHEN his game got worse, which it definitely did...

1. when annacone beat mac in the 1st round of the 86 us open , annacone said afterwards, 'guys in the lockeroom were telling me you dont have to play your best to beat mcenroe anymore..'
2. 1987 us open losing to lendl.. lendl said about new vs. old mcenroe - 'he mixes up his first serve more, but his 2nd serve just sits up'
3. 1988 wimbeldon losing to wally masur in 2nd rnd - mac says “If that's the best I’ve got to give, I'd quit tomorrow. It's almost enough to make me sick.''

one thing about mcenroes game is when he was a step slower and hit his deuce court serves out wide, players were able to thread the needle down the line and he couldnt cover it so one of his weapons became more of a liability
 
Moose Malloy said:
geez, you guys act like Mac was losing to lendl or becker every other week after his sabbatical.

I have his losses to Annacone('86 USO) & Woodforde('88 USO) on dvd & part of his matches with Haarhuis('89 USO) & Masur('88 W) on tape.

The idea he lost any of those matches due to the 'increased power' in the game is almost comical. Have you seen Woodforde play? he could barely break an egg with his groundies. but Mac was moving like he was in quicksand that day.

Mac circa '84 would have destroyed all those players. There are a lot factors in why he declined so quickly(most of them off court issues), but sorry I'm not buying that the overall tour got considerably more powerful in a few months or years in the mid to late 80s. yeah Becker was something pretty unique(& pretty inconsistent, look up his 80s losses), but was Edberg or better yet, Pat Cash(1987 Wimbledon champion)? mac in his prime was no match for cash or edberg? seriously?

I read a recent interview where he says his biggest regret was not being more single-minded about tennis (a trait which he admires so much about in fed & nadal) he says he doesn't think he ever really reached his potential. just speculation on my part, but having an unplanned kid with your drug addict celebrity girlfriend when you are 25 years old & in your athletic prime was probably a big factor in not reaching your prime. maybe a bit more than lendl getting better(& they never even played each between the 1985 USO & 1987 Stratton Mountain, how the hell was Lendl the reason Mac declined in those 2 years??? because expert wally masur says so in 2011??)



and just look at the '85 Volvo & '85 Canadian Open finals. Mac beats Lendl easily twice just a few weeks before the '85 USO & suddenly he can't handle Lendl's power that day? ok. I'm guessing mac's 4 hour match with wilander the day before the '85 uso final(in brutal heat) was a bit of a factor in his play that day. still if mac held on to that 5-2 1st set lead, my money would be on him pulling that match out(the whole 'losing 3 straight uso finals' thing would have really wore on lendl if he was down a set, imo)



good points. I have a lot of Mac on tape, he was just flying around the court in 1984(& teeing off on groundies, I know Mac is primarily remembered as a touch player today, but he wasn't really chipping & charging or hitting a lot of drop volleys in the '84 Wimbledon or '84 USO finals. he was, to quote Newcombe "ripping & charging" even off Lendl's serve. Newcombe said he had never seen anyone play like that before, he sounded a bit in awe & he doesn't seem like the type of guy easily impressed)

I came across a old NY Times article that said Mac pulled a hamstring at the end of 1984(made him withdraw from the Australian Open), who knows maybe that caused him to adjust his game a bit for 1985.
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agree totally. All this talk about mac losing more "ONLY" due to increase in "power play" is just BS. It was MUCH more due to his own decline. Power was the main way to go at mac, but doesn't mean prime mac couldn't handle power
 
Prime McEnroe could definitely handle considerable power. Yet, I do think a big part of it was that with the new graphite technology and larger racquet size, you had a big tilt in the dynamics of tennis. Of course, volleying changed, in response to passing shots/returns being fired back with more pace, from a greater range of court locations. You can return and hit passing shots with graphite frames in a very different way relative to wood frames. That was a big factor as well, coupled with the decline in his own abilities, also coupled with the rise of such powerful players as both Becker and Lendl. Lendl. McEnroe in the early 80's-1984 was a different player in terms of ability, as has been discussed. Yet, the change from wood frames to graphite frames did tilt the balance of power towards the great baseliners. You could no longer serve and volley and approach the net as you could before when everyone played with wood frames and McEnroe struggled as he was in the middle of that transition. Yet, the earlier version of McEnroe could effectively compete with Lendl on fast surfaces especially. He has a big edge over Lendl at Wimbledon for example.
 
actually mac did very well in 83-84 when the switch from wood to graphite happened. His returning in particular from what I've heard and seen , was helped
 
abmk said:
actually mac did very well in 83-84 when the switch from wood to graphite happened. His returning in particular from what I've heard and seen , was helped
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Yes, but his abilities helped him manage. His serve was harder, and his returns were better with the Dunlop 200G, that is true, but the dynamics with graphite frames make serving and volleying/approaching quite different. But he was no slouch from the baseline. Yet, he did not want to get into extended rallies with say Lendl or Connors. He needed to take the net once the point got going, to optimize his chances. Once graphite frames were used, McEnroe had to choose his approach shots more carefully, given the harder passing shots, from farther back and wider. Also, the return game was helped greatly by graphite frames, so for example, on serve, swinging his serve out wide to a player with a graphite frame vs. wood frame did change the dynamics. By the late 1980's, with everyone using graphite, he could not try and take the net at every opportunity possible, as he could do before. That strategy had no hope of working with everyone using graphite racquets now. Lendl was using graphite even in 1980-1981, so he had essentially the same frames. The graphite frames were evolving as well. The frames by 1986 were different than the 1983 first generation versions, so that played a role as well.
 
abmk said:
agree totally. All this talk about mac losing more "ONLY" due to increase in "power play" is just BS. It was MUCH more due to his own decline. Power was the main way to go at mac, but doesn't mean prime mac couldn't handle power
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As I stated earlier in thread...and others...never understood how people could buy into this myth. Of course...we all like simple answers...media soundbites....but it's ridiculous. A silly premise...like Lendl suddenly figured out how to hit the ball overwhelmingly hard one year....LOL

Certainly the changes in strategy (power play) of newer players made if more difficult than ever for Mac to find his form and toy with them the way he could at his best...but CLEARLY he wasn't the same player. Lendl admitted that, he said Mac was slower in 87, and that his 2nd serve was not doing "all that well" (as another poster just noted)..... and he hardly had a desire to be charitable to mac.

Mac also reveals just how messed up his body had become in his bio...Mac's own strategic approach (trying to match power with power) was also something I thought was a mistake...and he now has actually admitted that. I remember him openly stating that his goal back in 88, was to hit harder...mistake....
 
the green god said:
One thing I never see mentioned is how drastically the look of John's game changed in such a short period of time. He was always a very idiosyncratic, nervous(tics) looking player, but the dominant Mcenroe(79-84) had a wide base on his serve that launched him into the court. His groundstrokes were fairly long and fluid and he could hit outright winners. A good example to watch would be the 1984 Masters final vs. Lendl. By the 85 Open his game had already started to change. Feet closer together on the serve, groundstrokes starting to look funky. I find it hard to believe in seven months Lendl's power had passed him by. After the sabbactical in 1986 his game looks completely different. If my memory is correct a good match to watch would be against Brad Gilbert at the 86 San Francisco Open. Now Brad wasn't going to overpower anyone, and John won the match, but the look of his game is completely different. Short, choppy groundstrokes, and while his serve was probably the same speed, it did not carry him so far into the court causing his volleys to not be nearly as effective. For whatever reason John's idiosyncrasies(spelling?) caused him to start messing with all of his strokes to the detriment of his game.
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Interesting premise. It's plausible that the switch to graphite could cause this...it did this to some other players. Sometimes you play better temporarily, but then in the end, your strokes mutate, often shorter, to try to get control, and the ultimate effectiveness drops, even though you THINK you're doing better. In some cases, you even THINK you're hitting harder...but you're not....you're actually hitting softer!
 
amateur theorist: Lendl hit so hard it negated many of his opponent's strategies. Mac's diversion tactics didn't seem to affect him.
He hit way harder in the 80s than he does now off the ground.
I find Lendl vs. Mac matches on YouTube extremely entertaining.
 
CyBorg said:
I think maybe a better argument one can make about Mac's game after his temporary retirement is that it never returned to its former glory due to an increased emphasis on power in professional tennis.

Rather than just pointing at Lendl and his power, one can look at a general trend and probably make a good argument that the game changed and no longer suited Mac as well as before.

However I don't know if it's possible to prove this. And one can make the counter-argument that Mac's downfall was a combination of age/mileage and personal life/retirement.

Maybe a bit of both. Worth speculating about.
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I would say it was both and Mac admitted to both his autobiography: He physically wasn't the same guy post 1985 (lost some speed/quickness) and the trends in the sport - the emphasis on fitness and power were moving away from him.
 
pmerk34 said:
Mac himself stated in autobiography that the "increased fitness of the players plus the power caused by racquet technology left him out in the cold" post 1985, If an egotistical jerk like Mac can admit this in writing why can't you?
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I believe that one can interpret Mac's statement in several ways.

It sounds like Mac (the "egotistical jerk)" is avoiding blaming himself or his own inadequacies and decline. Instead it was their "increased fitness" and "racquet technology."

Typical immature human nature encourages one to blame others and not oneself.
 
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hoodjem said:
I believe that one can interpret Mac's statement in several ways.

It sounds like Mac (the "egotistical jerk)" is avoiding blaming himself or his own inadequacies and decline. Instead it was their "increased fitness" and "racquet technology."

Typical immature human nature encourages one to blame others and not oneself.
Click to expand...

The game passed him by while he was on his sabbatical and he admits it. He lost some speed and quickness and the other players hit harder and were in better shape. He spent the next 5 years of his life trying to become number 1 again and failed miserably, never reaching a GS final again although I have to say I still tuned into his matches.
 
pmerk34 said:
The game passed him by while he was on his sabbatical and he admits it. He lost some speed and quickness and the other players hit harder and were in better shape. He spent the next 5 years of his life trying to become number 1 again and failed miserably, never reaching a GS final again although I have to say I still tuned into his matches.
Click to expand...

Mac really did lose his edge after '85 and by '87 it was really showing. Lendl was ripping thru him and he even dropped a match to Connors who was 35 years old at that stage; he had not lost one to Jimmy in quite some time. But, Mac was always physically frail...he had a lot of problems in '82 and '83...neither was a great year for him. And, Lendl really peaked in '86/'87, no question.
 
¿Does anybody dispute that JMac would have beaten Borg at the 1979 Wimbledon final, provided he played as weel as he did later in September at Flushing Meadows?

He had already beaten Borg at a major (WCT Finals) and his peak at Flushing was higher than Borg´s peak at London that year.

Maybe, Borg´s peak at the 1979 RG would match John´s peak at 1979 Flushing, because Borg played much better in Paris than in London that year ( excepting his SF against a very erratic Jimmy Connors).Bets are open.
 
Yes. Lendl ranks higher on my all-time list than Mac.

(In the character sweepstakes, one could say that no personality beats bad personality.)
 
hoodjem said:
Yes. Lendl ranks higher on my all-time list than Mac.

(In the character sweepstakes, one could say that no personality beats bad personality.)
Click to expand...

If leave doubles out of the equation they had very comparable careers. Lendl by virtue of his superior conditioning played more and was almost never hurt and definitely has the edge in most statistical categories. Mac was more versatile and had better "moments' in his career.
 
pmerk34 said:
The game passed him by while he was on his sabbatical .
Click to expand...

!$!$1$$@$*! Man...things change fast in tennis, but that was some six months eh?? Mac: "who the heck are these people???? EVERYONE I killed before, is GONE!!"

"Len...dAL..?? Who's this guy? OMG! This Paul Annacone is a monster! I never knew people could play like this!!! He looks a bit like the Annacone I was beating before...but...his game...it's revolutionary! I can't keep up!!"
 
Datacipher said:
!$!$1$$@$*! Man...things change fast in tennis, but that was some six months eh?? Mac: "who the heck are these people???? EVERYONE I killed before, is GONE!!"

"Len...dAL..?? Who's this guy? OMG! This Paul Annacone is a monster! I never knew people could play like this!!! He looks a bit like the Annacone I was beating before...but...his game...it's revolutionary! I can't keep up!!"
Click to expand...
Are these true quotations?

Mac certainly knew Lendl before his sabbatical.
 
a few years ago, i saw mcenroe interviewed lendl on tv at one of the grandslam tournaments. mcenroe challenged lendl to a tennis match but lendl said no but he would take on mcenroe in bicycle race. after the interview had ended, mcenroe told his co-commentator and the audience that lendl was a wimp to turn down his challenge :)
 
rachael turnbull said:
I love the Lendl era, mostly because of Borris, Edberg, and Graff. I used to laugh at Mac. I remember when he was thrown out of the Aust. Open. I laughed at the time, now I just think he is a big idiot.

I would like to put together some great tennis moments from history. If you have any suggestions let me know on www.fullswingtennis.com
cheers
Click to expand...

Borris? Chuck Borris from Germany ? or Borris Burrows from Burrrrrlington?
 
Question if any of these Seniors including Lendl can beat McEnroe in a legit match, bicycle race, swim, or run today.
 
i was watching some of the 85 us open mcenroe-wilander match on youtube and it looked like macs game went down soo much compared to a year ago, and it wasnt fatigue because it was even at the beginning of the match. even the commentators were saying his volleys lacked usual oomph. this was the same tournament he almost lost to schlomo glickstein in the 1st round. it was not that big a surprise lendl handled him in the finals. lendls game did seem to improve tho about the same time period that mcenroes went down..('85). lendl was probably 15lbs lighter than the year before and moving much better.
 
Nice thread.
Hey, not to get off topic, but....does anyone remember that great instructional video called The Winning Edge?

Mac and Lendl training/rallying together in their shortshorts heyday with trippy visual effects, music by the Police, the Cars, The Pretenders...simple instructional dialogue....probably some forced interaction judging by the audio track, and just great close ups of two true badass tennis players.

I watched that vhs tape like a hundred times in HS/college. Wore that thing out. I still have that the Lendl/Czech accent in my head....with that oddly high voice of his. 'I use da Easten greep onda beckhend. And fordah forehand, a semiwestern greep.'
McEnroe before acting / broadcasting lessons sounded fun-loving and almost innocent.

Anyway, if you remember it, say hey. If not, maybe check it out. I saw some great clips of it on YT.
 
Mick said:
a few years ago, i saw mcenroe interviewed lendl on tv at one of the grandslam tournaments. mcenroe challenged lendl to a tennis match but lendl said no but he would take on mcenroe in bicycle race. after the interview had ended, mcenroe told his co-commentator and the audience that lendl was a wimp to turn down his challenge :)
Click to expand...

I think McEnroe was still trying to get his head around the fact that Lendl, out of the blue, challenged him to a bicycle race :)
 
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slice bh compliment said:
Nice thread.
Hey, not to get off topic, but....does anyone remember that great instructional video called The Winning Edge?

Mac and Lendl training/rallying together in their shortshorts heyday with trippy visual effects, music by the Police, the Cars, The Pretenders...simple instructional dialogue....probably some forced interaction judging by the audio track, and just great close ups of two true badass tennis players.

I watched that vhs tape like a hundred times in HS/college. Wore that thing out. I still have that the Lendl/Czech accent in my head....with that oddly high voice of his. 'I use da Easten greep onda beckhend. And fordah forehand, a semiwestern greep.'
McEnroe before acting / broadcasting lessons sounded fun-loving and almost innocent.

Anyway, if you remember it, say hey. If not, maybe check it out. I saw some great clips of it on YT.
Click to expand...

SBC. I have not seen these before at all. Yet, they have some very good tips. Thanks. McEnroe did sound different back then didn't he? He must have picked the music. Good stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlY7wwCz8jM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrQQnYJE9IM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB4P0WPo-vY&feature=related
 
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