ok so if we agree that TK113A mould is different than TK113B mould then <<A>> - <<B>> OR << C >> indicates different mould + different layap is that what you are trying to tell me? You mentioned in older posts that the FXP Radical(PT167A1) feels very simillar to PT113B1 and other players who own both version feel no difference...since <<1>> or <<2>> is also a layap indicator could the PT113B1 shares the same layap as PT167A1 ? FXP Radical ? When you say close how close are they in terms of layap? could it be identical? Also according to this logic the PT113C is slightly different mould than PT113B and completely different layap.Also since you say the ridges and holes of FXP Radical are part of the mould then maybe that is the reason HEAD gave it number 167 instead of 113?
"l'Enfant Prodige" Lorenzo Musetti's Racquet mystery (HEAD)
- Thread starter McEncock
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dr325i
G.O.A.T.
PT113B1 and PT167A1 do NOT share the same layup.
They do feel close to me, that means really nothing. As an amateur player, there are many things that I do not consider or notice in the layup. But I'd say the feel is similar, the softness and pocketing is similar, the sound is similar, the weight balance is similar. Both are TT technology.
I am not sure how Head comes up with the Mold identifiers/naming, but each of these have their own separate physical molds, there are dozens of them sitting on the Head shelves in KB and I have seen the TK113A and TK113B and TK346 separate molds.
Good question about the TK113C -- is that a separate mold? I do not know. To me, it looks identical to the TK113B mold (that is definitely different from the TK113A mold), although those are rare.
In the PT world, Head does not need to follow specific logic -- it is like a geek corner there where they experiment with many, limited quantity things. They can call it whatever they want and sometimes they do not have specific rules they follow. It is different in the TGK/TGT world where they manufacture by a third party.
On unrelated topic, that is another reason why Head could not do the mass production of the PT346.1 for example -- they only have 1 (possibly 2) mold of those, all in KB. And molds are expensive to build.
On the other hand, as an example, they do have multiple of TK339 molds in their factories in China.
mtommer
Hall of Fame
Talk tennis (aka "wish it into being") technology?
oldmanyellingatcloud
Semi-Pro
was PT307 one of those wacky experiments that ended up working out for a guy like Dodig? does that imply the existence of PT351 and/or PT352?
though I think you've all but confirmed most Radical players are swinging TGT307 and TGT351 these days save for Fritz, Schwartzman, and Uchida playing with TGT260
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
The PT352.1 exists. I don’t believe (at least I have never seen) the PT351.x.
I tried the PT307.x and did not like it.
Correct, most of the radical pro users use the TGT307.x and TGT351.x
Have you played with PT113C ? How much different is the layap compare to PT113B ?
You mentioned in an old thread that TK113B1 is based on FXP Radical mould and layap...could PT113B1,B2,C1,C2 all based on FXP Radical layap with slight differences like the one you mentioned in throat area between PT113B1 and PT113C ? If the layap is similar and not identical as you mentioned between PT113B1 ad FXP Radical then what exactly is the difference in terms of feel and material composition?...Also if we consider PT57A2 the one Murray uses is identical mould and layap with Pro tour 630 shadow font from 1996 then a pro stock racket like PT57A2 was once available in retail for regular consumers..y
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
The TK113B is based on the Ti Radical mold (TK113A) with some slight changes.
PT113B1 is own developed layup, not based on any previous but to me felt similar to the PT167A1 (FXP Radical MP). PT113B2, PT113C1, PT113C2 layups are variations of the PT113B1 layup.
I have looked at the differences of the B1 and B2 on the maps when in KB and there were some minor tweaks and some minor changes in the handle.
Yes, the PT57A2 pro stock version is the pro tock of the retail PT630.
All rackets are different from each other when they come off the line (weight, balance, flex, SW...). All top player frames (ND, AM, ....) are picked out from larger batches that closely match in the spec so it is easier to match them during customization.
So the layap of PT113B2 is the same as PT113B1 just different arrangement on how fibers are distributed inside the layap? witch makes PT113B2 stiffer? could PT113B1 -B2 layaps have same materials with FXP Radical MP but difference in material arrangement witch alters flex and stiffness a bot? i still can not understand if FXP Radical is the same mold as TK113B
innoVAShaun
G.O.A.T.
innoVAShaun
G.O.A.T.
LeftyMagic
Semi-Pro
i was wondering what that was glad someone else noticed
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
I just noticed this...
1) PT113B1 and PT113B2 layups are not the same. Small differences (to us) but not the same. And what you described -- "just different arrangement on how fibers are distributed inside" -- that is the whole definition of a layup, not necessarily different materials...
2) Just take a look at the FXP Radical vs. TK113B frames. Isn't it obvious that they are different molds??? One has the ridges and the FXP hole, the other does not
jmacdaununder2
Legend
Looks like Head has been hit by the same candy man as Prince/Hydrogen & the big W?
oldmanyellingatcloud
Semi-Pro
these would've been dope for Miami. iffy on the North American summer swing.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
I thought the Palm Trees PJ would have been more appropriate for Miami.
The "Neon" PJ actually goes OK with the lights of NYC
galapagos
Hall of Fame
Palm Trees are awesome. People are asking me what’s that racquet.
oldmanyellingatcloud
Semi-Pro
what are the illustrations on the PJ? for better or for worse, anytime there's some combination of turquoise and pink or purple, I think of Miami Vice.
there are going to be hits and misses when it comes to these limited PJs, but they're certainly driving people's interest. keep them coming
By looking the material reflections between PT167A and PT113B1-2 i can say the PT113B layap looks way higher grade quality more refined,it could be just me maybe i am wrong, i have never played with a PT113B to compare it with PT167A1..But i also think PT113B is higher grade layap than PT113C too despite all of then are Twin Tubes..Also i found a seller on **** who sells many pro stocks and he showed me a picture of a racket who has <<TK113B>> written on the handle and it has the i.Radical paint..Is there a chance it is a real PT113B with PT113B1 or B2 layap?
You think PT113A and PT167A1 layaps even though they are built with Twin Tube process just like PT113B have lesser quality layap and feel compare to PT113Bx? Witch of them has better feel? I read somewhere that PT113A and PT167A1 layaps where low quality despite Twin Tube,muted with no feel, Djokovic was not happy that is why he moved to H22 then Head created for him PT113B layap same quality like Pro tour 630 1994-96..Also PT113Cx layaps share same materials and same Twin Tube process with PT113B but stiffer or different fiber arrangements?
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
PT167A1 and other PT layups do not have lesser quality materials than the PT113Bx in their layup. The layups are just different and that makes them feel different.
The PT57A2 layup has nothing in common with the PT113Bx. The reason he moved to Wilson was the money, and then Head offered him more than what Wilson was paying to Federer and he switched back (plus the more special frame). H22 is “a copy” of LM Radical and not the other way around.
PT113Cx layups are different from B, I don’t have the exact details.
And then the PT346.1 that is the evolution of the PT113B2. PT346.2 is stiffer layup created to bring over some of Blade users
oldmanyellingatcloud
Semi-Pro
are there any PT346 players on tour anymore outside of ND?
was the hoop from PT313 from PT113 (as they notably were true 95")?
this stuff is fascinating thank you for sharing your insights
vsbabolat
Talk Tennis Guru
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
I am not sure if anyone else uses the PT346.1 on tour today.
No, the TK313 is also a 95, but different hoop (smaller TK307, just like the TK310 was a smaller (95) version of the Speed hoop) and bridge. The TK346 is a box beam.
The layups are different on the PT313.2 and PT346.1
If both PT167A1 and PT113B1 share identical quality materials could they also share identical type of graphite and fibers? Meaning same materials but,But with different arrangement resulting the PT113B1 flexes different? Witch layaps between PT167A1,PT113B2,PT113Cx you think feels closest to PT113B1?...All these layaps share identical type of graphite and fibers or only Bx layaps have same materials but different arrangements?
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
I cannot say that the quality and sources of materials are “identical” between the 167 and 113B because they are manufactured during different times and there could be some differences.
The reason they flex differently is because they are different layups. The graphite layers are laid differently, different places, quantities and directions and they cause different stiffness and racket behavior. It is possible to have two PT113B1 feel slightly different just because the materials are not placed perfectly identical on both as all of this is done manually.
The PT113B1 and PT113B2 are almost identical and feel that way. As I recall (it’s been a while) the only difference is the small amount of fiberglass in the handle…
Is PT113C layap Twin Tube?
So PT167A1 and PT113B and layaps are 100% handmade frames with both same high grade premium materials?..You mentioned in an earlier post that PT113B feel is years ahead of the Wilson H22 but mind tell me witch year H22? I heard the earlier H22s especially the ones made in 2006 are more solid they are hand made and are built with higher grade materials compare to H22s made after 2011 is that true?.
I am talking about the graphite type but anyway.. is PT167A1 100%handmade like PT113B and PT57A2? The fiber glass Twin Tube construction applies only for handle or also for the upper frame?( neck and headsize)
Thanks for the quick and sweet explanation. I've always wondered what 'twin tube' meant.
Rabbit
Talk Tennis Guru
@dr325i & @vsbabolat are Head OG sources!
Got it..But i still can not understand one thing.. @dr325i said that PT167A1 and PT113Bx layaps may use different type of materials because they where manufactured during different times..So we can also assume original pro tour 630 from 1994 has different materials than pro stock PT57A2 because they where manufactured during different times even though PT57A2 layap is based on Pro tour 630 1994? Also the H22 2007 can have different materials from H22 2011 and so on? And if Twin Tube process contains polyamide and carbon fiber then what is the material difference between PT167A1 and PT113B since both of them are Twin Tube construction?
vsbabolat
Talk Tennis Guru
You’re conflating things. PT167A and PT113B not only use different molds but also different layups. PT167A had LiquidMetal ridges and FlexPoint dimples in the mold. The PT167A has a layup that does have TwinTube construction but that is only part of it. PT167A has piezoelectric fibers in the shaft of the layup. Also I’m not going to be too pedantic and get too into the weeds but the orientation of the carbon fibers within the layup is also different. So PT167A and PT113B uses different layups and different molds. They are different rackets. Pro Tour 630 from 1994 and PT57A2 from 2000/ what ever will have the same layup and same mold. Therefore they
Play the same and feel the same. Good luck.
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Alright but i still believe however that PT57A2 pro tour 630 and PT113B layaps visualy look higher quality grade and more refined than Ti.Radical and PT167A1 layaps that is why many players describe the Liquidmetal Radical-Ti radical as <<dead>> with no feel.And not a coincidence Novak switched from Liquidmetal Radical to PT113B (custom layap) when he resigned with Head
You are not entirely correct about this: Murray used the PT57A2 layap witch is the 1st generation trek font Pro tour 630 1994..There are PT57A3-A4-A5-A6 layaps..The A3 is the retail Shadow font pro tour 630 of 1996,it has Twaron in the neck but the layap is stiffer than Trek font, also there are Shadow fonts PT630s with A4 layap but the most common is A3..PT57A5 and A6 are yellow Radical tours 1998 i have no information but probably sane materials with A2 but different arrangements so they will feel different.. PT57A2 is the softest of them all
vsbabolat
Talk Tennis Guru
You’re wrong. I know for a fact that PT57A2 is Pro Tour 630. I know for a fact that PT57A1 is bumblebee radical from 1993. I know for a fact the 1998 Radical Tour TwinTube 630 is PT57B. You have zero idea what you’re talking about. I have 1, 2, and 3 and PT57B’s in yellow candycane cosmetics and Premier Tour cosmetics. This is some funny S H I T.
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Shadow and trek font Pro tour 630 have identical materials both have Twaron but different layaps the shadow font is 64 RA unstrung 62 strung.Trek font is 58 unstrung 56 strung..Trek font is PT57A2 and Shadow font is PT57A3...I recently got that information from a seller located in Austria who got these frames directly from Kenneblach he also have personal Thomas Muster Shadow font PT630s with S.E.1 written on the side of the throat and they are definitely way stiffer than Trek fonts.Again i own both of them and i was always wondering why my arm hurts when i play with shadow font (i always thought both of them are 58 RA unstrung) Yes i can visually see that materials of PT113A and PT167A1 are not so refined compare to Pro tour 630 and PT113B especially PT167A that is why both of them feel dead with no feel on impact..Even Doctor in a previous thread stated that dampening,feedback and response of PT113B feel is years ahead of H22 and retail Radicals from 2000-2005
vsbabolat
Talk Tennis Guru
Oh, you saw the e bay listing lol!!!!! There isn’t any difference in layup layup between shadow and trek fonts. What is different my friend is that star trek font had tradition bumper-guard and grommet strips while shadow font has CAP grommets. You have zero first hand knowledge and zero first had experience. This is hilarious. I don’t have these experience such as you. I have lived a different experience for the last 35 years. I own SE1, SE2, SE3, and I owned 57A1, A2, and A3. 1 is Radical bumblebee layup I love that layup. Doesn’t hurt my arm. Plush as could be with a nice crisp response.
Again I will ask one more time, how do you visually see the different materials from PT113B and PT167A? Do you have x-ray vision that can see through the paint? Have you cut apart the rackets and analyzed grades of carbon fiber? Were you there at manufacture and examined the prepregs?
Can you prove that Trek Font and Shadow font have identical layap and stiffness ? Have you measured them on RDC machine? The seller told me that Shadow font is not only stiffer but also does not have that buttery flexy response the Trek font has,he said that shadow fonts can also be A4 but most common for shadow font is A3.He also said there are A5 and A6 layaps.
You are saying Trek font and Shadow font are both A2 correct? Then witch retail model is A3? I agree with you about PT167A and PT113B maybe i got confused with cosmetics and Indeed they could share identical materials with different fiber orientation since many players mention the feel and sound is identical but they flex different.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
I suggest you continue being educated by “the seller” and give us a break with this nonsense.
Here is from Head: the Trek Font and Shadow Font have exactly the same Layup - A2.
A4 was specifically developed for Muester, and considerably stiffer.
Different grommets can (significantly) alter the feel and also the RA measurement.
For the last time, the materials, sources, even feel change over time. Good example was when Head switched the Graphite supplier in 2010 and first batch of the PT57A2s felt very different even to me, let alone to the Pros. They made adjustments and all back to normal, where they minimized the differences. The new materials are Neither “better” not “worse” from the older ones, they are updates for various reasons.
The seller stripped pallets off and showed me pictures of Trek and Shadow font side by side.The Trek has <<A2>> written in the handle and Shadow has <<A3>> written.Maybe the differences are only small tweeks in the handle like the differences PT113B1-B2 have and from neck and above they share same layap.I can send the pictures here so you see the proof.
