Leon Smith: Murray is the greatest grass court player in the world

Since 2012, he has won 4 grass court tournaments (Wimbledon 2013, London 2012, Queen's 2013 and 2015). Novak has won 1 (Wimbledon 2014), Federer 4 (Wimbledon 2012, Halle 2013, 2014 and 2015 - but Andy's won 2 big ones) and Nadal 1 (Stuttgart 2015)
So all in all, that seems about right.
 
Claims like this have little meaning as far as biggest grass court tournament has yet to be played. Champion of Wimbledon by default is best grass court player in the World and currently Djokovic is the best. Whether this claim is valid or not will be decided by Murray's performance in upcoming Wimbledon and anything less than Golden trophy will see this backfiring hard.
 
Since 2013 Murray has been the best grass player in the world.

You can't hold 2014 against him and odds are if he was playing well enough to meet Djokovic he'd have scalped him too. Murray at his best on grass is just THAT good. He has even torn Federer to pieces in an Olympic Gold Medal match.
 
with grass being played on by old federer and djokovic on his worst surface, I'd hope Murray is lauded as the best grass courter.

But i still think players like tsonga and dimitrov, outside of GOATs and grass court specialists, are more natural at their aggressive tactics and overall approach to the surface than murray.

I have a feeling Murray would still use his rope-a-dope baseline play 9 times out of 10 matches, even on indoor carpet if it were around
 
THE FIGHTER said:
with grass being played on by old federer and djokovic on his worst surface, I'd hope Murray is lauded as the best grass courter.

But i still think players like tsonga and dimitrov, outside of GOATs and grass court specialists, are more natural at their aggressive tactics and overall approach to the surface than murray.

I have a feeling Murray would still use his rope-a-dope baseline play 9 times out of 10 matches, even on indoor carpet if it were around
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Variety from the baseline is effective on grass. At least it is these days.

And players can be baseliners/counterpunchers and still win big titles indoors you know.
 
Sabratha said:
Variety from the baseline is effective on grass. At least it is these days.

And players can be baseliners/counterpunchers and still win big titles indoors you know.
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Oh yeah i know. But i think the idea alludes to the ridiculousness of calling Murray the best grass courter in the world when surfaces are much more similar. Its likened to saying murray is the best player in the world, when he isn't. And honestly, he still has a way to go to reach his former level prior to his surgery on any surface.

The last 4 winners of Wimbledon won the tournament with aggressive play, even murray himself in 2013 was a much more aggressive player than he is right now.

Oh, and indoor hard is not the same thing as indoor carpet. Indoor carpet hasnt been around since Fed was priming on the rest of the tour.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Oh yeah i know. But i think the idea alludes to the ridiculousness of calling Murray the best grass courter in the world when surfaces are much more similar. Its likened to saying murray is the best player in the world, when he isn't. And honestly, he still has a way to go to reach his former level prior to his surgery on any surface.

The last 4 winners of Wimbledon won the tournament with aggressive play, even murray himself in 2013 was a much more aggressive player than he is right now.

Oh, and indoor hard is not the same thing as indoor carpet. Indoor carpet hasnt been around since Fed was priming on the rest of the tour.
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Nalbandian did well on carpet. He was a baseliner..
 
Sabratha said:
Nalbandian did well on carpet. He was a baseliner..
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So did federer. Common trait? Both were aggressive baseliners. Check their semifinals match at the aussie open or their finals match at the Masters. They do not play like murray. With the exception of Murray vs nadal at tokyo 2011 and AO 2010(i believe) and murray vs djokovic at W 2013 -- instances when murray actually played hyper aggressively like federer and nalbandian.
 
TMF said:
According to Great Britain Davis Cup captain Leon Smith, he believes Murray is the best grass court player in the world, and has been for three years.
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I believe whisky is the greatest drink in the world and has been so for many years. And I'm sure Leon Smith agrees with me because he must have had at least 1.5 bottles of the stuff before making that statement quoted above.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Oh yeah i know. But i think the idea alludes to the ridiculousness of calling Murray the best grass courter in the world when surfaces are much more similar. Its likened to saying murray is the best player in the world, when he isn't. And honestly, he still has a way to go to reach his former level prior to his surgery on any surface.
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On ANY surface? After what he did this year on clay???
 
Gary Duane said:
On ANY surface? After what he did this year on clay???
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Lets put this into perspective

In 2015 he got to the semis of RG losing to the eventual runner up. He also won his first clay tournament, a masters 1000, despite it being on the faster clay courts of Madrid*

Now in 2011, Murray got to the semis of RG losing to the eventual champion, and got to the semis of the two truer clay masters 1000s.

So yeah, even on clay, it's comparably unimpressive
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Oh yeah i know. But i think the idea alludes to the ridiculousness of calling Murray the best grass courter in the world when surfaces are much more similar. Its likened to saying murray is the best player in the world, when he isn't. And honestly, he still has a way to go to reach his former level prior to his surgery on any surface.

Oh, and indoor hard is not the same thing as indoor carpet. Indoor carpet hasnt been around since Fed was priming on the rest of the tour.
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Murray himself thinks he is playing better tennis now than in 2013.

Murray has won nine indoor titles, including one on carpet.
 
It is hard to say that he is clearly the best in the last three years as he has won just one Wimbledon but he has been consistent for sure.
 
Hawkeye7 said:
Murray himself thinks he is playing better tennis now than in 2013.

Murray has won nine indoor titles, including one on carpet.
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Federer thinks hes a better player now than he was from 2004-2007. So take that for what it's worth

And lets not fool ourselves, murray winning at st petersburg on carpet is not very similar to the likes of nalbandian and federer winning the masters cup when it was on carpet.

Lastly, Murray winning 8 indoor titles is irrelevant to his carpet results in his case. Indoor carpets are exclusively fast, which is the reason why carpet was abolished on the tour. The O2 arena court is indoor but it's a fairly slow hc.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Indoor carpets are exclusively fast, which is the reason why carpet was abolished on the tour.
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It was removed because the players themselves did not want it due to risk of injury. I think the top 50 or 100 players took the decision.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Federer thinks hes a better player now than he was from 2004-2007. So take that for what it's worth

And lets not fool ourselves, murray winning at st petersburg on carpet is not very similar to the likes of nalbandian and federer winning the masters cup when it was on carpet.

Lastly, Murray winning 8 indoor titles is irrelevant to his carpet results in his case. Indoor carpets are exclusively fast, which is the reason why carpet was abolished on the tour. The O2 arena court is indoor but it's a fairly slow hc.
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I would actually agree with Murray though. Not with Federer however.

Murray tends to play better on "faster" surfaces and he also never had the chance to play the Masters Cup on carpet.
 
Hawkeye7 said:
I would actually agree with Murray though. Not with Federer however.

Murray tends to play better on "faster" surfaces and he also never had the chance to play the Masters Cup on carpet.
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I was referencing that although he won a title on indoor carpet, doesnt make him a fast court specialist. Just because murray won a title on clay, it doesnt mean hes a clay court specialist. See the argument?
I'll also argue that murray mostly does well on a faster surface against someone of similar calibre only when facing another defensive baseliner, which is why federer gives him trouble at W and USO. Murray once in a while decides to play aggressively, but is far more reliant on playing his own defensive game. Which i think explains why sometimes he's able to hit through djokovic (W 2013) and nadal (tokyo 2011 & AO 2010) or barely edge out djokovic (USO 2012) but lose in tight matches for virtually the remainder of their big meetings. Look at the non big 4 players he lost to at wimbledon over the years, nalbandian, roddick, baghdatis, dimitrov--all aggressive baseliners. Its evident when nadal is out hitting him on centre court on 3 seperate occasions that murray is playing defensively.
 
I hope for Andy's sake he will not read that. That is some weight on his shoulders from his captain. Reading by that, the DC captain is saying Murray is fav. for Wimby. I don't think Andy wants to be considered that.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Federer thinks hes a better player now than he was from 2004-2007.
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And he is. Problem is his legs aren't the same they were when he was 23, he just isn't as explosive as he used to be. But he's a much more complete player now.

Back on topic: what grass are we talking about? The current Wimbledon one? Then Murray is among the best players right now, as the current Wimby grass just plays like a hard court. Bring back the old irregular serve&volley courts from the 90's and you'll see Murray isn't the best at all.
 
ThirdEye said:
...Murray is among the best players ...
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And that's what old Leon should have said. And everyone would have known what he meant - it's Murray and Fed and everyone else. And if we get that SF matchup at W (now that the draw is out), whoever brings the better game and wins the big points will win.
 
Results for the past three seasons (2012, 2013, 2014)
Murray - WIM F-W-QF, Olympics W, 1 Queens title (2013)
Djokovic - WIM SF-F-W, Olympics 4TH
Federer - WIM W-2R-F, Olympics 2ND, 2 Halle titles (2013, 2014) + another final

All three have 1 Wimbledon and 1 extra final. Essentially a tie.
Murray won the next best event, so he's undisputably the best, plus he has a Queens title too.
Federer came second at the Olympics, so he should be next, and his Halle titles easily cancel out Novak's slightly better non-title Wimbledon consistency.
Novak didn't medal at the Olympics, and has no extra grass titles.

Murray has been the best, then Federer, then Djokovic.
This really can't be argued with.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
with grass being played on by old federer and djokovic on his worst surface, I'd hope Murray is lauded as the best grass courter.

But i still think players like tsonga and dimitrov, outside of GOATs and grass court specialists, are more natural at their aggressive tactics and overall approach to the surface than murray.

I have a feeling Murray would still use his rope-a-dope baseline play 9 times out of 10 matches, even on indoor carpet if it were around
Click to expand...

I disagree that Tsonga and dimitrov are more natural grass court players, especially dimitrov. Neither have the footwork of Murray. Neither have a very good slice. Dimitrov's slice is good when it goes in but it's inconsistent and he doesn't attack with it so it's neither an offensive shot or a very consistent defensive shot.
Grass rewards instinctive players with creative shot making and good power. Tsonga would generally fit that role but he's not a good returner, which on grass, really is nearly 50% of the game. Dimitrov is also an average returner and doesn't attack enough/have enough natural power to scare guys. His footwork is also just above average. He's off balance too much. You can win a wimbledon or two with average footwork if you take footwork out of the equation by moving forward with power and aggression (i.e. ivanesevic/krajicek) but Dimitrov can't do that.
Both have the skillset to put it all together and win but I doubt it.
 
TheRed said:
I disagree that Tsonga and dimitrov are more natural grass court players, especially dimitrov. Neither have the footwork of Murray. Neither have a very good slice. Dimitrov's slice is good when it goes in but it's inconsistent and he doesn't attack with it so it's neither an offensive shot or a very consistent defensive shot.
Grass rewards instinctive players with creative shot making and good power. Tsonga would generally fit that role but he's not a good returner, which on grass, really is nearly 50% of the game. Dimitrov is also an average returner and doesn't attack enough/have enough natural power to scare guys. His footwork is also just above average. He's off balance too much. You can win a wimbledon or two with average footwork if you take footwork out of the equation by moving forward with power and aggression (i.e. ivanesevic/krajicek) but Dimitrov can't do that.
Both have the skillset to put it all together and win but I doubt it.
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what are you talking about? returning well on grass makes one a good grass courter? no, just no. look at pete sampras, he didn't need a return to win his wimbledons and be tied for greatest grass player in history. so your argument is lacking there.

and, if you don't think tsonga and especially dimitrov move well on grass, you need to watch them play and listen to former pros. They have the cleanest most explosive transitions to the forecourt outside of federer. all three of whom are excellent movers on grass. let's not forget who straight setted murray in wimbledon 2014 (it was dimitrov btw) while murray was undoubtedly the favorite in the match.
 
ThirdEye said:
And he is. Problem is his legs aren't the same they were when he was 23, he just isn't as explosive as he used to be. But he's a much more complete player now.

Back on topic: what grass are we talking about? The current Wimbledon one? Then Murray is among the best players right now, as the current Wimby grass just plays like a hard court. Bring back the old irregular serve&volley courts from the 90's and you'll see Murray isn't the best at all.
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yeah, federer is definitely more complete, and cleaner, with more decisive game plans. he really doesn't have a huge weakness where as before he was so good with his weapons he can hide his weaknesses pretty well. but at the end of the day, it's all about converting one's traits into wins. i think federer, because of his body had to invest in traits that don't have the best return on investment in today's game.

yeah, essentially, the favorites will be djokovic, federer and murray. oh and what do you know, these same guys are the favorites at other slams too, with nadal thrown in once in a while. this is all because of the way the courts behave so similarly, especially at the championship end of the tournaments. most guys play exactly the same on grass as they do at the USO and AO. so to call murray the clear best grass courter in the world is virtually akin to saying he's the best hard court player in the world or best clay court player in the world. I think the distinction of the best grass court player in the world should go to the best player in the world in today's tennis climate, and to be considered the best today, you have to be a really good baseliner. and sadly, djokovic is the favorite to make it deep, at every major, because he is the best baseliner (although he only wins 1/4 of the time).
 
Well at the moment you could argue this is true. Obviously overall it is Roger, but in the past few years Andy has done very well on the surface. Novak has won Wimbledon twice and been very consistent, but he doesn't play warm up events so you can't compare him to Roger or Andy there. But he is definitely up there just talking about Wimbledon.
 
Firstservingman said:
Results for the past three seasons (2012, 2013, 2014)
Murray - WIM F-W-QF, Olympics W, 1 Queens title (2013)
Djokovic - WIM SF-F-W, Olympics 4TH
Federer - WIM W-2R-F, Olympics 2ND, 2 Halle titles (2013, 2014) + another final

All three have 1 Wimbledon and 1 extra final. Essentially a tie.
Murray won the next best event, so he's undisputably the best, plus he has a Queens title too.
Federer came second at the Olympics, so he should be next, and his Halle titles easily cancel out Novak's slightly better non-title Wimbledon consistency.
Novak didn't medal at the Olympics, and has no extra grass titles.

Murray has been the best, then Federer, then Djokovic.
This really can't be argued with.
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sure. but i think 4 years is an odd metric in the case for andy. post surgery Murray is a different player than before, he isn't strong in 5 set matches against good players and he isn't as aggressive as he was when Lendl coached him. a more relevant metric would be his result this season, or this season and last season combined. in that case, Djokovic, Murray and Federer would have more realistic odds.

It's like when Del Potro underwent surgery, and came back on tour. He wasn't the favorite at the USO simply because he won the USO as well as had stellar hard court seasons within the lat 4 years. the fact that he was recovering from surgery compromised that.
 
Very true. I didn't mean in the context of who would do best this year or who is the best as of this moment, though, just who had done the best over the previous three seasons.

I do think Andy is getting his form back, but Novak is the defending champion and IMO currently the best until proven otherwise.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Lets put this into perspective

In 2015 he got to the semis of RG losing to the eventual runner up. He also won his first clay tournament, a masters 1000, despite it being on the faster clay courts of Madrid*

Now in 2011, Murray got to the semis of RG losing to the eventual champion, and got to the semis of the two truer clay masters 1000s.

So yeah, even on clay, it's comparably unimpressive
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I can't see making two SFs in two M1000s better than winning one. But we'll see how he does at W.
 
Gary Duane said:
I can't see making two SFs in two M1000s better than winning one. But we'll see how he does at W.
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Sure thing. And i dont think that was the point. The poster i responded to w said he had a good clay season. He won on the least clay like surface. That was my point at least.

This may actually point to good run at wimbledon given he won on the relatively quick clay courts of madrid.

But then again, murray has been fading out in the 5th set, a lot.
 
Hard to argue with that.

He's playing well, his only real weakness is the second serve, although it's been looking alot better of late.

He's going to have a tough time going through Tsonga, Nadal, Federer and Djokovic back-to-back though, consecutive 5 set matches on the bounce against that quality is a big ask.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
Sure thing. And i dont think that was the point. The poster i responded to w said he had a good clay season. He won on the least clay like surface. That was my point at least.

This may actually point to good run at wimbledon given he won on the relatively quick clay courts of madrid.

But then again, murray has been fading out in the 5th set, a lot.
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I'm always very reluctant to predict great results for Andy because of his up and down serve. But this year his serve was pretty strong on clay, and that's at least a good sign.
 
Feña14 said:
Hard to argue with that.

He's playing well, his only real weakness is the second serve, although it's been looking alot better of late.

He's going to have a tough time going through Tsonga, Nadal, Federer and Djokovic back-to-back though, consecutive 5 set matches on the bounce against that quality is a big ask.
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I totally agree, but there is no guarantee that Fed or Rafa will get far in this tournament. If they are upset, and Tsonga does not have a good day, things could really change. It's going to be a wild ride this year.
 
Gary Duane said:
I'm always very reluctant to predict great results for Andy because of his up and down serve. But this year his serve was pretty strong on clay, and that's at least a good sign.
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I think he has a better chance at giving djokovic trouble than federer and nadal especially if murray prevents too many 5 setters. Despite federer's good grass form the last couple years. But i think a big hitter in good form can give all of them trouble.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
I think he has a better chance at giving djokovic trouble than federer and nadal especially if murray prevents too many 5 setters. Despite federer's good grass form the last couple years. But i think a big hitter in good form can give all of them trouble.
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Well, since W has not yet started, I think we are both getting way ahead of things. ;)
 
Gary Duane said:
I totally agree, but there is no guarantee that Fed or Rafa will get far in this tournament. If they are upset, and Tsonga does not have a good day, things could really change. It's going to be a wild ride this year.
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That's very true, it's a funny thing analysing draws, they rarely work out how they're intended :)

Think it actually looks pretty similar to the one he had in 2013 when he won.
 
THE FIGHTER said:
what are you talking about? returning well on grass makes one a good grass courter? no, just no. look at pete sampras, he didn't need a return to win his wimbledons and be tied for greatest grass player in history. so your argument is lacking there.

and, if you don't think tsonga and especially dimitrov move well on grass, you need to watch them play and listen to former pros. They have the cleanest most explosive transitions to the forecourt outside of federer. all three of whom are excellent movers on grass. let's not forget who straight setted murray in wimbledon 2014 (it was dimitrov btw) while murray was undoubtedly the favorite in the match.
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How much Sampras did you watch? Of the big servers, he was the best returner. And he was a very opportunistic returner. If he got up love-30, he'd suddenly get 2-3 returns in a row and put a lot of pressure on the server. If he didn't get up, he'd just tank the next two points. This made him look worse than he really was. I always broke at very important moments.
Tsonga moves well on grass. I didn't say he didn't. He's just not a good returner. He can be streaky but it's not as clutch as sampras was. Plus Sampras sliced a lot, just to force the server to hit one more shot. Tsonga has an excellent grass court game and should have one or two Wimby's by now but again, his returns, combined with his head, hold him back.
Dimitrov just does everything Fed does but worse. His slice looks nice but isn't something he uses very strategically, in part because it's terribly inconsistent, especially for a supposed defensive shot. He doesn't have one particular power shot and his movement is very good but he slips far too much on grass, which means that he's taking far too many big steps on grass.
 
TheRed said:
How much Sampras did you watch? Of the big servers, he was the best returner. And he was a very opportunistic returner. If he got up love-30, he'd suddenly get 2-3 returns in a row and put a lot of pressure on the server. If he didn't get up, he'd just tank the next two points. This made him look worse than he really was. I always broke at very important moments.
Tsonga moves well on grass. I didn't say he didn't. He's just not a good returner. He can be streaky but it's not as clutch as sampras was. Plus Sampras sliced a lot, just to force the server to hit one more shot. Tsonga has an excellent grass court game and should have one or two Wimby's by now but again, his returns, combined with his head, hold him back.
Dimitrov just does everything Fed does but worse. His slice looks nice but isn't something he uses very strategically, in part because it's terribly inconsistent, especially for a supposed defensive shot. He doesn't have one particular power shot and his movement is very good but he slips far too much on grass, which means that he's taking far too many big steps on grass.
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Wow, you dont need an aggressive return to win wimbledon in any era. Thats bogus. The serve and what you do on the service game is still a big big part of winning wimbledon. Look at who has won wimbledon the last 10 years. Two very neutral returners who get the ball back in play won 8 / 10.

Slipping and falling? Everyone slips on grass. Look at federer. The point about movement is that those three guys go forward more than any baseliner. Which is huge on grass all things being equal.
 
What's bogus is your reading comprehension skills. I never said Sampras was an aggressive returner. I said "he'd suddenly get 2-3 returns in a row" which means he just got them back. Fed is an even better example because he gets a lot of returns in with his slice, which is better than Sampras' slice. Tsonga is not a good returner because he doesn't even get many returns in.
And of course the serve and the service game is a big part of winning. That's like saying ice is cold.
Fed is an excellent example of NOT slipping. review last year's wimby. listen to how the commentators notice Fed slip only once or twice but Dimitrov slipping all over in his semifinal match. You're right, going forward is very important - that's how Dimitrov got to the semi's but his tactical aggression is far too inconsistent. Sometimes he just looks like he likes to hit cool looking shots.
 
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