Let us suumarise Djokovic's gameplan, techniques and tactics against rafa

Sport said:
As everyone knows, Djokovic has humilliated Federer much more.

GS tournaments are widely considered to be the most relevant ones. Analogously, H2H at GS should be considered more relevant than H2H at Masters 1000, Masters 500 and other minor tournaments. Otherwise we would be displaying a double standard logic.

Djokovic defeated Nadal in 3 GS matches in a row (WB 2011, USO 2011 and AO 2012). But Nadal defeated him in 4 GS matches in a row (FO 2012, FO 2013, USO 2013 and FO 2014). Crutially, Djokovic defeated Federer in 4 GS matches in a row (WB 2014, WB 2015, USO 2015, AO 2016).

So Nadal has damaged more Djokovic at GS than vice versa (4 GS victories in a row >>> 3 GS victories in a row). Nadal also leads overall Djokovic 9-4 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open). And Djokovic has damaged more Federer at GS than Nadal (4 GS lost in a row >>>> 3 GS lost in a row). Djokovic leads Federer 9-6 at Grand Slams.
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Those stats are stupid. Nadal was lucky to barely meet Djok in slams in that second 7-0 streak. No, he was too busy losing to mugs like Fognini, which is much more humiliating than taking a loss against Djokovic. Nothing to be proud off.
 
Sport said:
As everyone knows, Djokovic has humilliated Federer much more.

GS tournaments are widely considered to be the most relevant ones. Analogously, H2H at GS should be considered more relevant than H2H at Masters 1000, Masters 500 and other minor tournaments. Otherwise we would be displaying a double standard logic.

Djokovic defeated Nadal in 3 GS matches in a row (WB 2011, USO 2011 and AO 2012). But Nadal defeated him in 4 GS matches in a row (FO 2012, FO 2013, USO 2013 and FO 2014). Crutially, Djokovic defeated Federer in 4 GS matches in a row (WB 2014, WB 2015, USO 2015, AO 2016).

So Nadal has damaged more Djokovic at GS than vice versa (4 GS victories in a row >>> 3 GS victories in a row). Nadal also leads overall Djokovic 9-4 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open). And Djokovic has damaged more Federer at GS than Nadal (4 GS lost in a row >>>> 3 GS lost in a row). Djokovic leads Federer 9-6 at Grand Slams.
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I disagree with the statement in bold. When Rafa was struggling against Djokovic, Federer was the only player that was capable of beating Djokovic.
 
Hitman said:
This first sentence right here sets the tone for how you want this thread to be seen. This is a straight attack on Nadal and his fans, how you expect a constructive discussion to follow after this is beyond me. Djokovic has NOT humiliated Nadal, he has been his fiercest rival though, but humiliation is not the correct word. And I say this as someone who prefers Djokovic over every active tennis player right now.
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It's an incredible rivalry. Although the Rome final this year showed that Zverev could step up and be a great rival for Nadal. Who knows what would've happened if not for that rain delay.
 
Djokovic is better when he’s at his best. His ground strokes, in particular the BH in combination with his movement make an inpentribable wall against Rafa. But this is a result of the homogenized court speeds rewarding fairly 1 dimensional game styles. With more varied and faster courts neither would have been so dominant or played different games which would heavily alter their match up.
 
Sport said:
As everyone knows, Djokovic has humilliated Federer much more.

GS tournaments are widely considered to be the most relevant ones. Analogously, H2H at GS should be considered more relevant than H2H at Masters 1000, Masters 500 and other minor tournaments. Otherwise we would be displaying a double standard logic.

Djokovic defeated Nadal in 3 GS matches in a row (WB 2011, USO 2011 and AO 2012). But Nadal defeated him in 4 GS matches in a row (FO 2012, FO 2013, USO 2013 and FO 2014). Crutially, Djokovic defeated Federer in 4 GS matches in a row (WB 2014, WB 2015, USO 2015, AO 2016).

So Nadal has damaged more Djokovic at GS than vice versa (4 GS victories in a row >>> 3 GS victories in a row). Nadal also leads overall Djokovic 9-4 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open). And Djokovic has damaged more Federer at GS than Nadal (4 GS lost in a row >>>> 3 GS lost in a row). Djokovic leads Federer 9-6 at Grand Slams.
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There is a difference in age of fed and djok
Djok dominated and humiliated nadal, who was around of same age and was in prime/peak (atleast until 2014)
Whereas fed was out of prime, much much older and still was a pain in novak's head even when novak was peaking. Dominant over fast surfaces still at 34/35....
And for your kind information, 11 out of 15 fedovic slam matches were played in djok's peak/prime and fed's way-way past prime years
 
Hitman said:
This first sentence right here sets the tone for how you want this thread to be seen. This is a straight attack on Nadal and his fans, how you expect a constructive discussion to follow after this is beyond me. Djokovic has NOT humiliated Nadal, he has been his fiercest rival though, but humiliation is not the correct word. And I say this as someone who prefers Djokovic over every active tennis player right now.
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Bhai
I didn't want to attack nad fans..
But Reality is reality..
 
BringBackSV said:
I was talking about the skewed nature of the second dominant run vs a slumping Rafa who was losing to everyone. Thats really nothing like the first one in 11-12 and Novak is fortunate he didn't similarily have to play Rafa much during his own current slump. Good talk bud.
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Yes 2nd dominant run was over a slumpy nadal indeed, but that evens out nadal's wins over djok when djok was a baby and nadal was prime/peak
 
The best open era backhands imo are Agassi, Djokovic, Murray (yes really), Nalbandian, Safin, Borg

Federer isn't quite as good as those but it is very good, not super far off, it looked weaker than it is because of the Rafa abuse of it. Wawrinka's 1 hander is also very good but not in the top tier imo.

I think in the Open Era at least, we will find that 1 handers while aesthetically prettier are not at the very top because of how slower courts/poly/better athletes etc. have made the game more about movement and defense and it is harder to defend with a 1h bh in the same way. As an offensive shot, I think the 1 hander might be slightly superior at least on faster surfaces.

Some of it is coincidence, as Borg played in a time of faster courts at Wimbledon and less racquet technology, so if he had happened to have a 1 hander, I think he would have also been very successful with that. From the 90s on, the one hander has been more prone to breakdown on the slower courts, and even at Wimbledon at times.

The 2 hander is just a more "stable shot". The 1 hander is prettier and you have more reach and can really uncork it. Agassi did have a great offensive 2 hander though.
 
zagor said:
Zverev doesn't do anything better than peak Novak except air fingering.
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You might say serve or even the overhead of Zverev could be better than Novak's. But yeah, the backhand - even the current Djokovic has a better backhand than Zverev. His ROS, DTL backhand and control on high balls is just ridiculous.

Also Novak's forehand is so good. People forget how effective it is since Djokovic 2.0. It doesn't have the stylistic genius of Fed's forehand or the ruthless spin/power of Rafa's. But I think it's equally good. He caused Rafa so many problems with his short angled forehands, while dragging Rafa wide on the backhand side. He did the same to Federer, hitting flat into the corners. The funny thing with Novak is that he has this sometimes awkward follow-through on his fh, which doesn't look great. But when his back is against the wall, he can hit it crazy hard, and NEVER miss.
I mean those forehands against Fed at the UsOpen were ridiculous. He's also damaged Nadal so many times in big slam matches. He just hits hard and in the corners and is deadly accurate on the forehand which was supposed to be his weaker side.

Peak to peak, I still feel that Djokovic can compete or beat the best of Federer and Nadal. I don't think his style is attractive, but (at his peak) his game is the most effective of any player that I've ever seen with virtually no weakness. No one knows what would have happened if he hadn't lost his form after 2016, but the slam record could have been in jeopardy.
 
TennisFan3 said:
It doesn't have the stylistic genius of Fed's forehand or the ruthless spin/power of Rafa's. But I think it's equally good.
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robthai said:
I disagree with the statement in bold. When Rafa was struggling against Djokovic, Federer was the only player that was capable of beating Djokovic.
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That is true. (Stan ate up nole at slams thrice though not consistent)
Without fed, 2015 nole season would have gone 85-3 with most insane numbers....
In the best nole season, half of his losses came to a 34 year old grandperer

robthai said:
Zverev has the best backhand in the world right now. The rest of his game isnt all that, but his backhand is world class.
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Please......


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HetTheGreaterer said:
Nadal is an early bloomer and the best teenage prodigee of tennis so far
Whereas djok was a late bloomer
Believe it or not, it evens out each other
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What you are saying is simply false. Novak made two SF, a final and won a GS at 20 and you are arguing he was a late bloomer? Novak also looked very much like he belonged against Fed in 07 at the USO final. So no, it doesn't actually even out. That period for Novak is not comparable to the two periods where Rafa and Novak fell off a cliff and battled injury.
 
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BringBackSV said:
What you are saying is simply false. Novak made two SF, a final and won a GS at 20 and you are arguing he was a late bloomer? Novak also looked very much like he belonged against Fed in 07 at the USO final. So no, it doesn't actually even out. That period for Novak is not comparable to the two periods where Rafa and Novak fell off a cliff and battled injury.
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Okay don't accept it
But I will still repeat it as its truth, bro:)
 
His comfort off both the backhand wing, and defending and rallying all the live long day are the two keys. Those are the things that primarily lead to the first 7-0 (the second 7-0 is largely meaningless, just like nobody compares Djokovic's 2015 victory over Nadal in Paris to Soderling's from 2009, nobody with a lick of sense should compare that second streak to the first one).

P.S. he may be a "far better player than nadal on all other surfaces which are not clay" but it was Nadal won the last grand slam meeting they played that was not on a clay court.
 
Sport said:
As everyone knows, Djokovic has humilliated Federer much more.

GS tournaments are widely considered to be the most relevant ones. Analogously, H2H at GS should be considered more relevant than H2H at Masters 1000, Masters 500 and other minor tournaments. Otherwise we would be displaying a double standard logic.

Djokovic defeated Nadal in 3 GS matches in a row (WB 2011, USO 2011 and AO 2012). But Nadal defeated him in 4 GS matches in a row (FO 2012, FO 2013, USO 2013 and FO 2014). Crutially, Djokovic defeated Federer in 4 GS matches in a row (WB 2014, WB 2015, USO 2015, AO 2016).

So Nadal has damaged more Djokovic at GS than vice versa (4 GS victories in a row >>> 3 GS victories in a row). Nadal also leads overall Djokovic 9-4 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open). And Djokovic has damaged more Federer at GS than Nadal (4 GS lost in a row >>>> 3 GS lost in a row). Djokovic leads Federer 9-6 at Grand Slams.
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Federer actually led Djokovic in all aspects pre 2013.

He’s still only 1 win behind despite reaching peak Djokovic so many times aged 32-34.
 
Gazelle said:
Those stats are stupid. Nadal was lucky to barely meet Djok in slams in that second 7-0 streak. No, he was too busy losing to mugs like Fognini, which is much more humiliating than taking a loss against Djokovic. Nothing to be proud off.
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32-34 year old Fed was reaching multiple GS finals while prime 27-28 year old Rafa was losing to likes of Kyrgios, Berdych, Brown, Fognini etc to avoid Djokovic LOL
 
Djokovic is in the same league as Rafa when it comes to movement (probably even a bit better in terms of ability to stretch for balls) and his BH can neutralize Rafa’s FH. That’s about it. The rest are intangibles. All of these players Roger, Rafa and Novak had their peak periods where even other All time greats had trouble beating them and they all had down periods, too. The reason I think Roger is the GOAT is that even during his “down periods” he was still making Slam finals and SFs regularly and while he lost to the likes of Rafa and Novak (which skewed the H2H) he was always there to take on the challenge. In contrast the other two tend to have down periods where they get bounced quite early in tournaments before they get within a mile of Roger in the draw.

Just my two cents.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Humiliated nothing. He had ONE good year where he could finally beat his daddy in slams, and haden't before or since.
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Djokovic dominated "his daddy" for nearly 5 straight years. keep in mind "daddy" hadn't take a set off Novak since the 2014 French until their match in Madrid last year. immediately following the 2013 US Open (which "daddy" won), Djokovic dropped a total of 4 sets in their next 12 matches - 3 of them in the 2014 French. Nadal managed only 2 tiebreaks in those 12 matches (both of which occurred in matches he lost in straight sets). as despite a handful of competitive sets played between them in that span, I've never seen Djokovic have a look of resignation in matches remotely comparable to the one I saw from Nadal in that period.

so to recap, Djokovic has taken 7 straight matches against "his daddy" two different times. sadly, "daddy" has never been able to replicate a 7-match win streak even once. and then there was the performance at "daddy's" favorite Slam in 2015 but I guess we don't have to talk about that, either. no doubt Rafa's still crying himself to sleep over that one. and we also don't need to talk about 2011. you know, that was a rough one for "daddy," too.
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
if he drops serve nowadays, set is gone for him. Unlike past djoker, who has histories of coming back from double break down
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this has been one of the biggest sources of his troubles since the 2016 French. Novak, even when down multiple breaks, could usually find a way to claw his way back into a set. And if he squandered a one or two break lead, he'd get another break back. now it often seems as if one break of serve is insurmountable. the match against Cilic last weekend, consider how he completely tossed in the towel after Cilic got the break in the third. No matter how Cilic was serving, Novak's body language betrayed he was unwilling to contest a point in that next game. Think about all the times in sets before 2016 where you'd see him at 3-2, 3-3, 4-3 really dig in, go into that deep crouch as if he was mentally determined to break no matter what the opponent threw at him. there were matches against his top rivals where the guy was winning approx 50% of return points. there's none of that now.
 
Rafa's OCD said:
this has been one of the biggest sources of his troubles since the 2016 French. Novak, even when down multiple breaks, could usually find a way to claw his way back into a set. And if he squandered a one or two break lead, he'd get another break back. now it often seems as if one break of serve is insurmountable. the match against Cilic last weekend, consider how he completely tossed in the towel after Cilic got the break in the third. No matter how Cilic was serving, Novak's body language betrayed he was unwilling to contest a point in that next game. Think about all the times in sets before 2016 where you'd see him at 3-2, 3-3, 4-3 really dig in, go into that deep crouch as if he was mentally determined to break no matter what the opponent threw at him. there were matches against his top rivals where the guy was winning approx 50% of return points. there's none of that now.
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It is also because of his sharp physical decline....
His 90% game was built around his body physique...
Just look at this skeleton, is it even 20% near to the djokovic from 2015????
 
Rafa's OCD said:
Djokovic dominated "his daddy" for nearly 5 straight years. keep in mind "daddy" hadn't take a set off Novak since the 2014 French until their match in Madrid last year. immediately following the 2013 US Open (which "daddy" won), Djokovic dropped a total of 4 sets in their next 12 matches - 3 of them in the 2014 French. Nadal managed only 2 tiebreaks in those 12 matches (both of which occurred in matches he lost in straight sets). as despite a handful of competitive sets played between them in that span, I've never seen Djokovic have a look of resignation in matches remotely comparable to the one I saw from Nadal in that period.

so to recap, Djokovic has taken 7 straight matches against "his daddy" two different times. sadly, "daddy" has never been able to replicate a 7-match win streak even once. and then there was the performance at "daddy's" favorite Slam in 2015 but I guess we don't have to talk about that, either. no doubt Rafa's still crying himself to sleep over that one. and we also don't need to talk about 2011. you know, that was a rough one for "daddy," too.
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I doubt Rafa is crying himself to sleep about anything, when he owns the guy in career achievements ;)
 
First of all, he only mostly owned him in bo3. In bo5 matches were close and Rafa usually wins those. Like Federer owning Nadal the last five times. The bo5 was still close, so Nadal is a different animal at majors.

Nadal has some problems in his game. Weaker backhand, return not as great, sure he puts the balls back, but doesn't put you on pressure like Djokovic. And away from clay Rafa's positioning can be flawed. Then, the serve, Djokovic has a lot better serve and backhand. On top of that, Djokovic ability to stand close to the baseline and still be consistent.

Rafa comepensates for his weaknesses with fitness and crazy mentality. But, he can only do that in bo5. And the price is that he will also get injured a lot more, higher tenacity comes at a huge price. So, a lot of times, Nadal won't be at his best, that's why he can't sustain his peak, so Djokovic caught him often away from peak, due to Rafa not being able to sustain his peak.

Except on clay, that is a different story. Djokovic wasn't able to dominate him on clay. Sure, a few bo3 wins and that fluke one RG win, but come on, Nole is not close to RAfa on clay. The reason is that clay is different. On clay, weaknesses aren't so important, the most important is the movement. And Nadal on clay is still the best mover, so that's the main reason he can't be beaten. And movement is not just speed, but also endurance, anticipation. You can stand back on clay and still defend, so endurance is big part of skills and Nadal always peaks on clay, so nobody is physically close to his movement. I think the movement is mostly why players have trouble with Nadal and not his forehand.
Plus, Nadal is very smart strategically on clay. Away from clay, you don't have time for strategy, it's more about tactics.

So yeah, when Nadal is not peak and the matches are bo3, his flaws in his game show up. He can't run around every match even bo3 and just catch everything. Also, Djokovic fans are too selective. How about before 2011 where Rafa was owning Djokovic and also Djokovic even failed to reach him? I'm sure Rafa would be 7-0 versus Nole too, if Nole could play him before 2011.

This is Rafa's greatness, with his limitations he was still able to find a way with hard work and sacrifices.
 
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