Let's assume Nadal finally equals Federer in slam titles, who is greater?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by TennisSprout, Sep 13, 2017.

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Let's assume Nadal finally equals Federer in slam titles, who is greater?

  1. Federer

    97 vote(s)
    56.1%
  2. Nadal

    61 vote(s)
    35.3%
  3. Equal

    15 vote(s)
    8.7%
  1. TennisSprout

    TennisSprout New User

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    Let's assume in the next few years Nadal adds 2 FO and 1 AO or USO, or 3 FO. Also Federer stays at 19 (However, I do feel he has another WC to collect).

    Who is greater?

    I vote for Federer for his elegant playing style, amazing longevity, much more weeks at world No. 1, plus a record 6 WTF titles.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
    #1
  2. Rod Laver

    Rod Laver Professional

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    I'm not sure elegant style should be in any criteria but for personal preference, I may be wrong. Peak level of play, which you might imply by your assessment of his elegance, would seem more relevant in assessing a players greatness along with their achievements.
     
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    #2
  3. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Bionic Poster

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    Ewww.

    Skip to 1:20 :p

     
    #3
  4. TahoeTennis

    TahoeTennis Hall of Fame

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    What's with all these troll socks popping up? Ad Nauseum blah blah blah. Fed and Rafa are twin goats. Give Rafa at least a week to celebrate ok?
    VAMOS!!
     
    #4
  5. Waspsting

    Waspsting Professional

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    Federer

    I don't measure greatness by just Slam count alone... distribution isn't too important to me either...if Nadal won nothing but Frenches, I wouldn't complain or hold it against him

    That said, if it comes out even, Federer comes out ahead for me, based mostly on the WTF titles

    The other points you've raised, as I see it -


    - "Elegant playing style" - irrelevant to greatness (though yes, I'd rather watch Fed play most days of the week)
    - "Amazing longevity" - not important... if they're even, that's just another way of saying "less dominant" if he's done it over a longer period of time
    - "Much more weeks at #1" - that's a factor in Federer's favour too (not as big as WTF, imo)

    I would add Total titles to Federer's advantage too

    Nadal would have an edge in Masters only

    WTF is the big one
     
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    #5
  6. TennisSprout

    TennisSprout New User

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    Well, it is indeed my preference. I enjoy Roger's game. As for peak level of play, Nadal does have the edge on clay while Federer leads on grass and fast HC. On slow HC, I think they are about on the same level.
     
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    #6
  7. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands G.O.A.T.

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    Important criteria in tiers:

    1) Major titles, weeks at #1, YE #1
    2) #titles including discussion about their quality (WTF, M1000, ATP500, OG)
    3) own era, H2Hs (results and hypothetical peak levels of play)
    4) other tennis metrics (streaks, team competitions, dominance on separate surfaces)

    :cool:
     
    #7
  8. uscwang

    uscwang Professional

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    Nadal no doubt.
    Fed, Nadal and Djokovic will likely end up as the top 3 players of the open era. Fed had won half of his GS by the time Nadal and Djokovic turned 20. In contrast, Nadal has always had to face Fed, Djokovic, or both.
     
    #8
  9. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    True. Slam count is just the start.
     
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    #9
  10. ultradr

    ultradr Legend

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    Don't know about GOAT.

    Between these two only, I just think Nadal is clearly better player already.
     
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    #10
  11. octogon

    octogon Professional

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    Because they competed in the same era for the majority of their careers, the obvious first tie-breaker is the H2H. If the H2H was close, it'd be statstically insignificant, even if Fed was a little bit behind. But it isn't close.

    Nadal wins that, so he'll be regarded as the GOAT by pretty much the entire planet, apart from a few stubborn Federer loyalists.
     
    #11
  12. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands G.O.A.T.

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    It is decided then.

    :cool:
     
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    #12
  13. Monster07

    Monster07 New User

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    this scenario is unlikely but if it were to happen people would assume nadal is greater just becauses of h2h.....however i still vote for federer
     
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    #13
  14. BorgTheGOAT

    BorgTheGOAT New User

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    Elegant playing style is as irrelevant as it can get for judging the greatness of a player. Fed's longevity is indeed amazing, but if Nadal continues winning slams in the next few years his longevity will be equally amazing especially given the fact, that he started winning slams almost three years earlier than Fed. Weeks at world No.1 is important I agree, but same here, in your hypothetical scenario (Nadal winning slams in the next three years) he will add a lot more weeks here as well and close the gap to some extent. The WTF titles are less important IMHO, if they both end up with 19 slams people will talk a lot more about the lopsided slam Head to Head and that Nadal beat Federer at his best slams, while Federer never came close to beating Nadal at the French (again assuming that the Head to Head would stay as lopsided, which however would be very likely if Nadal wins 3 more slams while Federer will stay at 19).
     
    #14
  15. nochweiterroger

    nochweiterroger New User

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    'Elegant' playing style is NOT irrelevant, although I wouldn't use the word elegant. Why is it relevant? Because tennis is a spectacle, a performance and aesthetic style is an important dimension of every spectacle, whether it is a contest or not. Federer is not 'elegant' so much as creative; it is his variety of play, his movement and inventiveness that set him apart. 'Elegance' is a word used to diminish his achievement, to make it sound merely decorative, when in fact creativity has contributed to his winning record.
     
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    #15
  16. BorgTheGOAT

    BorgTheGOAT New User

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    That's nice but it does not add to his greatness, as it does not necessarily wins you more titels. People tend to overvalue a aesthetic playing style, this is why players with great touch, spectacular drop shots and good volleys are always labeled here as great/wasted talents (e.g. the Rios lovers in this forum), while players with strong serves are unfairly labeled as stupid untalented serve-bots and players with great physis like Nadal or Ferrer are not regarded as very talented either. However, what counts in the end is what wins you matches. A great serve can guarantee you around 30 free points in a match, how many points do you win with drop shots or tweeners? Maybe 5 in a match? If a guy came along with a karlovic serve and a Federer forhand who can move like Nadal but cannot volley or hit a backhand to save his life and this guy somehow ends up being equally successful as Federer he would not be any less great than Fed even if his playing style would be as ugly or unpleasant to watch as it can possibly get.
     
    #16
  17. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands G.O.A.T.

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    H2H are vastly irrelevant compared to many other metrics.

    Also, when considering them the knowledgeable people will ask what happened so that the H2H is such.

    Many Nadal fans have not grasped fully how the events influence that conversation.

    They cannot just pull out the raw numbers and claim superiority.

    Also, it is actually normal for players from different generations to have somewhat lopsided H2H in favour of the younger generation (Federer leads Agassi 8-3).
     
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    #17
  18. titoelcolombiano

    titoelcolombiano Semi-Pro

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    Rafa

    Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk
     
    #18
  19. RAFAELNADALISTHEBEST

    RAFAELNADALISTHEBEST New User

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    Nadal easily. He also has the singles Olympic Gold Medal, which Federer doesn't. He leads in head to head. Olympic Gold Medal >>>> WTF titles.
     
    #19
  20. Rago

    Rago Semi-Pro

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    Voted for Federer (bias :p).

    But a lot of people and experts will pick Nadal for being the better big match player against his rivals in the majors and in a few decades from now, there isn't going to be a single "casual fan" that will bat an eye at any other metric either.

    Yes, tennis is played against a field and some people even tend to consider the importance of "matchups" but all of that will most likely be overlooked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    #20
  21. BorgTheGOAT

    BorgTheGOAT New User

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    It is not irrelevant, since they played in the same era. Yes, Fed is 5 years older but since Nadal was an early bloomer their careers mostly overlapped. Fed and Agassi are 11 years apart so that is a stupid comparison. Federer is leading here because Agassi was to old when Fed reached his prime. And yes, knowledgeable people will ask what happened that the H2H is so lopsided in Nadals' favor and if they are simple minded quickly come to the conclusion that this is because of clay because they played mostly during Nadal's and after Fed's prime or whatever excuses Fed fans usually come up with. However, if they are impartial they will later see, that a teenage Nadal is 2:1 against peakest of prime Fed on Hardcourt and was actually only a couple of points away from being 3:0. That both played a lot of times when Federer was dominating the tour left and right and Nadal was still very young, such that Federer should have had an advantage here. Then they will discover, that Nadal actually beat Federer at his strongest slam and is 3:1 against him at the AO. Even if you totally ignore clay, Nadal is still leading 8:5 on outdoor hard, which is the most played surface of all. After finally realizing, that the only place where Fed truely dominated Nadal is Indoors, they will either acknowledge Nadal's superior H2H or come up with the last possible fanboy excuse of an unfair matchup advantage for Nadal. By the way, I actually like Fed, but the H2H is what it is, no excuse from Federer fans ever convinced me here.
     
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    #21
  22. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Twin goats for different tastes. Perpetual conversation piece.
    Even if surpassed, Roger will always be the favorite, the best, the moast wunderbar, the chosen one.
    Rafa will be the moast accomplished. The one with the moast slam titles. The one who peaked at slams. The one with the decima. Because nine was too odd a numba for his OCD.
     
    #22
  23. Monster07

    Monster07 New User

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    Nadal is winning the poll! 66%
     
    #23
  24. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands G.O.A.T.

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    Best username for when one needs to go undercover since BULLZILLA2.0.

    :cool:
     
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  25. TennisSprout

    TennisSprout New User

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    I will put WTF on its own category.
     
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    #25
  26. Red Rick

    Red Rick Legend

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    Any subjective measure that favours posters favorite will suddenly be mega important and determine who is GOAT.

    16 slams in 4 years
    1 OSG in 4 years.

    Ergo.

    Nadal has 32 slams
    Federer 19
    Murray 35
    Djokovic 12

    Mury goat
     
    #26
  27. killerboi2

    killerboi2 Hall of Fame

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    Nadal doesn't need to equal Federer's slam titles to be greater than him... Tennis fans thinking like that might as well be robots. He already is greater than Federer. He'd obviously have 19+ already if he wasn't constantly going through Djokovic and Federer and had long inflation periods like Federer 2004-2007. His superior slam h2h against Djoko and Fed which borderlines on complete domination as well as his 16 slams is more than enough to put him as open era GOAT.
     
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  28. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands G.O.A.T.

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    That is just stupid.

    If you are going to "argue" like that you don't have to argue at all.

    :cool:
     
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  29. KingKyrgios

    KingKyrgios Professional

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    How many alts does the vamos brigade have on here...
     
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  30. VaporDude95

    VaporDude95 Professional

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    He also has the solar eclipse number 1, don't forget....
     
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  31. moonballs

    moonballs Hall of Fame

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    Nadals playing style is elegant too, if you mute the sound and skip the pre-serve rituals.
     
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  32. killerboi2

    killerboi2 Hall of Fame

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    Lmao and what a great argument you've presented in this post. NNevermind, just seen your dreadful arguments a few posts above. Head to head is irrelevant and then trying to use Andre's head to head against Fed to justify Nadal's domination over Fed? Hahahahaha man it's you that should stop arguing.
     
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  33. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands G.O.A.T.

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    The brain thickened to a plank.

    Congratulations!

    :cool:
     
    #33
  34. RF-18

    RF-18 G.O.A.T.

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    I hear many pundits say that Nadals h2h record over him will be the deciding factor.

    I don't agree but seems like many experts value the h2h records and how rivalries play out.
     
    #34
  35. mike danny

    mike danny G.O.A.T.

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    And Djokovic has won 3/4 of his GS since Fed turned 30.
     
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  36. Druss

    Druss Hall of Fame

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    Federer won 4 majors only by the time Nadal won his first. So he had Nadal as his No1 peer and nemesis throughout the rest of his other 15 slams....and please don't give me the baby BS, because the grandpa BS would come into discussion. How old were Borg, McEnroe, Becker, Sampras, Safin, Hewitt, Delpotro when they started winning majors? Guess what? 17-20! Babies it seems are doing pretty well.
     
    #36
  37. buscemi

    buscemi Professional

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    I think it depends. For instance, let's say that Nadal wins the French Open and either the U.S. Open or the Australian Open next year and the French Open in 2019, getting to YE #1 in both years based on the Majors, great clay court results, and solid results throughout the year. That's very different than if, say, Nadal wins the French Open in 2018, 2019, and 2020 and doesn't have great results outside of clay or the #1 ranking in any of those years.
     
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  38. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    As of now, Rafa has 3 Slam titles to make up on Roger yet, so it's a bit away, but assuming Rafa finishes equal with Roger on Slam wins, I would then take into account the distribution of said Slams, overall consistency at Slams, the YEC titles, H2H particularly at the bigger events, weeks and YE at no.1 and total titles won, variety of titles etc.

    Rafa has 10 French and is considered the greatest clay courter already so I think Nadal could do with more at Wimbledon, USO and the AO if he wants to strengthen his case. A YEC would be good too.

    Roger may yet add another Slam title or two, so Rafa still has work to do.
     
    #38
  39. TennisSprout

    TennisSprout New User

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    You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, no matter how strongly biased your opinion is. You simply cannot claim a period weaker without presenting your evidence. It was not like Nadal hadn't competed from 2004-2007. Unfortunately for him, he is not good enough to win any slam outside clay during this period. I admire what Nadal accomplished since 2008 on HC and grass (6 slams total), but your argument based on h2h and week era is just too weak to stand.
     
    #39
  40. jimjam

    jimjam Rookie

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    If Nadal also catches up in Weeks @ 1, and gets a couple WTF on the way, then I'd give him the edge due to the dominant H2H

    If Nadal catches up but Federer still has a large lead at Weeks @ 1, or Nadal has 0 WTF, then Federer is still GOAT.

    If Nadal SURPASSES Fed's GS count (not the question asked) then he gets GOAT, regardless of WTF wins or any other stats.

    ---

    Most likely though... Federer is staying as GOAT for a decade or two.
     
    #40
  41. Red Rick

    Red Rick Legend

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    'bout tree fiddy more than the amount of Kyrgios-hating snowflakes with sticks so far up their asses that they're puking splinters
     
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  42. ForLoveOfTheGame

    ForLoveOfTheGame Semi-Pro

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    Federer all day, every day. The most complete player ever. It wouldn't matter if Nadal doubled his slam count, I'll always consider Roger the greatest, as will many more. His game is the most eye popping spectacle. His losses will be shrugged off, just as Nadal's on other surfaces not containing mud. Roger is the face of tennis.

    "Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, and be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes."
     
    #42
  43. merwy

    merwy Legend

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    Federer. The Olympics and WTF even each other out (although Fed was obviously much more successful there) but the weeks at #1 clearly does it for me. That's a hugely underrated stat.
     
    #43
  44. MathGeek

    MathGeek Hall of Fame

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    How smart is it to based a multidimensional assessment on a one dimensional statistic?

    Athletes are like artists. One cannot always say "A > B." One can always apply a weighting to the available data to arrive at one's preferred outcome.

    That says more about the character and motives of the claimant than it does about the subjects being assessed.
     
    #44
  45. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands G.O.A.T.

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    Lol, you managed to squeeze the entire Bamos Brigade members' rethoric in one post.

    Again, probably not worth it, bit here it goes:

    The difference between Agassi and Federer is indeed bigger than the difference between Federer and Nadal, but Agassi also played a lot more consistently in a Major winning form than early in his career and that largely negates the said difference.

    Agassi simply played like someone who was born much closer to Federer than his years suggest.

    Second, if you claim that Nadal's career overlapped with Federer's and he was meeting and beating him on HC almost from the beginning there cannot be an excuse for Nadal of being a baby on the surface and that that is his excuse for not meeting Federer in HC finals (including Majors).

    Especially combined with the weak era argument that position becomes toxic for anyone defending it.

    Third, you separated indoor and outdoor HC.

    Any justification for that?

    Also, you didn't even bat an eyelid to make all the excuses for Nadal for not reaching Federer when he was in a good form, conviniently removing the fact that around 7 of those wins happened when Federer had his worse years, whereas Nadal didn’t meet Federer more than once in his (Apart from Basel 2015 Nadal didn’t meet Federer for 2! full years, when Federer was in good form and making Majors finals).

    Also conviniently you missed to note how many of Nadal's wins, including the famous win at Wimbledon and all three at AO happened against post peak Federer.

    Since you are a fan of the H2Hs here is something for you :


    On HC Federer 10-9 Nadal
    On Grass Federer 2-1 Nadal

    It is freaking amazing that Federer still has the edge on two of the three main surfaces at the age of 36 against another ATG of Nadal's caliber.

    Like you said "No excuses here"

    :cool:
     
    #45
  46. Maestroesque

    Maestroesque Professional

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    #46
  47. Maestroesque

    Maestroesque Professional

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    He's definitely better than sampras tho
     
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    #47
  48. buscemi

    buscemi Professional

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    The best case for Nadal would be if he can finish the next three years -- 2017, 2018, and 2019 -- as year-end #1. That would give him six year-end #1 rankings vs. five for Federer and maybe around 270 weeks at #1 vs. 302 for Federer, depending on when he loses the #1 ranking in 2020. Nadal would also have by far the longest stretch of time between first becoming #1 and last holding the #1 ranking (which he currently holds)

    Of course, this depends on Nadal staying healthy in 2018 and 2019 and performing well enough to hold the #1 ranking each, both of which are big question marks. But, if he does this, many people would say he has a better #1 profile than Federer or at least an equal #1 profile.
     
    #48
  49. TennisSprout

    TennisSprout New User

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    H2H is what it is and I will agree with you on this. But it must be contemplated with the time line of the rivalry.

    Fairly speaking, during Federer's peak period 2004-2007, Nadal never earned himself opportunities to meet against Federer in AO and USO, where Federer pretty owned these two events. The age difference also helped the lopside of H2H between them as we all know that after 2007 Federer never beat Nadal again on Grand Slams until 2017 AO.

    What's similar here is that since 2014, Nadal trails 2-9 against Djokovic, with only 2 wins on clay. So now Djokovic leads H2H against Nadal.

    This is why I don't focus too much on H2H but rather consider their respective achievements for who is greater.
     
    #49
  50. KingKyrgios

    KingKyrgios Professional

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    How is that definitive?

    Sampras is better in 3/4 majors,YE#1,WTF
     
    #50

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