Let's compare Martinka and Federer

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
This is a response to @zill , because I want your post to remain about a variety of comparisons to Federer. I've realized you might not believe my statement on Martinka's more practical backhand flair. If I read correctly, Mike Danny also told me I was overreaching when negatively comparing his forehand flair to Martinka's backhand.

Let's run a quick comparison. I've searched up Federer's "most powerful forehands" on the Tube, and these forehands are bolstered by the better equipment of his time. We can glance the fundamental differences between a couple of these forehands and the Martinka backhand from the above link.

To begin: You will first notice that Martinka's footwork is much stabler.

hingis.png

Capriati's return, which is hit to the service line is retrieved by Martinka in two pace-sized steps. Martinka hits the backhand while lunging forward. Not just into the court but to rush towards the volleying position. You will notice that despite her lunging, her shoulders are level. Yet, her left knee is solidly planted for stability from which to push off into the court. Her right knee, meanwhile, is at a 120-degree angle. Her mass is propelled even further forward through this degree of lean.

Such footwork ingenuity can only be equated to a player in another area. In my mind, Martinka's footwork only equates to Edberg and McEnroe's volleying techniques. Edberg has the superior form from a technical standpoint. Mac is the more consistently solid from varying positions than the norm. Martinka's movement is a hybrid of the two, with a near-perfect form and subtle mix to her approach variety. The forehand she hits just before this backhand is a body forehand that serves to jam Capriati and prevent her from hitting a strong return, playing into the Martinka backhand hit squarely on the ad-court tee.


federer2.png


With Federer's forehand, you will notice deficits. This is the first forehand of the video. He takes three shuffle steps to the ball, losing valuable time even when Djokovic's shot is hit parallel to Federer and closer to Federer than Capriati's return is hit to Martinka. Notice Federer's flippity, happy feet that slink every which way. The jump provides him more power than the average player, but the jump is, in fact, backwards. This in itself removes some of his power potential when compared to Martinka. This is why I told you that Martinka hit her backhand more powerfully than Federer hit his forehand. I don't mean this in a relative sense. If you compare where the two players hit their forehands, Martinka's forehand lands deeper, in spite of her inferior equipment. Martinka's backhand was hit at a sharp angle- the only reason there wasn't even more pace on it than the forehand below.

hingis2.png


What would happen if Federer used Capriati's racket with the footwork he displays? The signs are worrisome.

After this, you'll want to take a look at Federer's step in. Worse than the jump, neither of his legs is at a 30-degree angle. He is not pushing off his toes and aiding his propulsion through torso rotation. His left leg's angle is negative and pushing him backwards. What's more, look at the curvature of Federer torso. His improper, horizontal step contributes to something of a V shape if you were to outline his right side. His side is not aligned, and this "flair" is the equivalent of a high school punk who wildly swings his arms and mass to bully the underclassmen, contrasting a boxing professional.

hingis.png


Martinka was the professional. I prefer a ballerina in motion to some kid who's attempting to breakdance. Notice that if you were to outline either side of her body, her outline would be much closer to a true line than what Federer displays above. Even so, she has stepped three feet into No Man's Land, where Federer is a foot or two behind the baseline. While she could have stepped in further, being scrappier (quicker) than Federer, she would have crowded the ball like Federer did, and her resulting step-in might have been lackluster, like Federer's was. She would've been less able to rush the net, like Federer did not.

Seconds later, Federer hits a second forehand winner. We'll compare this step-in with Martinka's step-in.

federer.png
hingis.png


As you can see, Federer skates around the safety of No Man's Land, not advancing, and with his weight shifted partially sideways, as before. His right knee finally sees some proper action, and the left knee is properly planted. He's beginning to show tinges of consistency. Martinka is yet superior, with an entirely forward weight and her knees more bent on both sides. Seeing the video will also show you the Martinka backhand was taken on the rise, and this Federer forehand was not. Notwithstanding, the real problems begin with his topspin whip that makes the ball once again land shorter than Martinka's forehand.

federer3.png
hingis4.png


The topspin is ultimately wasteful. He requires this whip at such an angle because his previous, lateral footwork led him to scramble on a pendulum, stumbling upon a chance opening in Djokovic's court coverage. If Federer had looked to advance forward, he would have cut off Djokovic's angle as Djokovic hit to straight him in the end. The whip itself helps Federer to keep the ball in the court: he is jammed as a result of his poor movement.

In the Martinka display, her backhand whip is in fact quicker, increasing her ball's forward spin and speed, but partly because she returns her racket to the volleying position instead of waving it around her hair for the slower topspin, as Federer does. A Michael Chang would've therefore retrieved this Federer forehand, but more to the point: a Nadal would've retrieved this Federer forehand on a slower court. For example, on a "clay" court.
 

zill

Legend
This is a response to @zill , because I want your post to remain about a variety of comparisons to Federer. I've realized you might not believe my statement on Martinka's more practical backhand flair. If I read correctly, Mike Danny also told me I was overreaching when negatively comparing his forehand flair to Martinka's backhand.

Let's run a quick comparison. I've searched up Federer's "most powerful forehands" on the Tube, and these forehands are bolstered by the better equipment of his time. We can glance the fundamental differences between a couple of these forehands and the Martinka backhand from the above link.

To begin: You will first notice that Martinka's footwork is much stabler.

hingis.png

Capriati's return, which is hit to the service line is retrieved by Martinka in two pace-sized steps. Martinka hits the backhand while lunging forward. Not just into the court but to rush towards the volleying position. You will notice that despite her lunging, her shoulders are level. Yet, her left knee is solidly planted for stability from which to push off into the court. Her right knee, meanwhile, is at a 120-degree angle. Her mass is propelled even further forward through this degree of lean.

Such footwork ingenuity can only be equated to a player in another area. In my mind, Martinka's footwork only equates to Edberg and McEnroe's volleying techniques. Edberg has the superior form from a technical standpoint. Mac is the more consistently solid from varying positions than the norm. Martinka's movement is a hybrid of the two, with a near-perfect form and subtle mix to her approach variety. The forehand she hits just before this backhand is a body forehand that serves to jam Capriati and prevent her from hitting a strong return, playing into the Martinka backhand hit squarely on the ad-court tee.


federer2.png


With Federer's forehand, you will notice deficits. This is the first forehand of the video. He takes three shuffle steps to the ball, losing valuable time even when Djokovic's shot is hit parallel to Federer and closer to Federer than Capriati's return is hit to Martinka. Notice Federer's flippity, happy feet that slink every which way. The jump provides him more power than the average player, but the jump is, in fact, backwards. This in itself removes some of his power potential when compared to Martinka. This is why I told you that Martinka hit her backhand more powerfully than Federer hit his forehand. I don't mean this in a relative sense. If you compare where the two players hit their forehands, Martinka's forehand lands deeper, in spite of her inferior equipment. Martinka's backhand was hit at a sharp angle- the only reason there wasn't even more pace on it than the forehand below.

hingis2.png


What would happen if Federer used Capriati's racket with the footwork he displays? The signs are worrisome.

After this, you'll want to take a look at Federer's step in. Worse than the jump, neither of his legs is at a 30-degree angle. He is not pushing off his toes and aiding his propulsion through torso rotation. His left leg's angle is negative and pushing him backwards. What's more, look at the curvature of Federer torso. His improper, horizontal step contributes to something of a V shape if you were to outline his right side. His side is not aligned, and this "flair" is the equivalent of a high school punk who wildly swings his arms and mass to bully the underclassmen, contrasting a boxing professional.

hingis.png


Martinka was the professional. I prefer a ballerina in motion to some kid who's attempting to breakdance. Notice that if you were to outline either side of her body, her outline would be much closer to a true line than what Federer displays above. Even so, she has stepped three feet into No Man's Land, where Federer is a foot or two behind the baseline. While she could have stepped in further, being scrappier (quicker) than Federer, she would have crowded the ball like Federer did, and her resulting step-in might have been lackluster, like Federer's was. She would've been less able to rush the net, like Federer did not.

Seconds later, Federer hits a second forehand winner. We'll compare this step-in with Martinka's step-in.

federer.png
hingis.png


As you can see, Federer skates around the safety of No Man's Land, not advancing, and with his weight shifted partially sideways, as before. His right knee finally sees some proper action, and the left knee is properly planted. He's beginning to show tinges of consistency. Martinka is yet superior, with an entirely forward weight and her knees more bent on both sides. Seeing the video will also show you the Martinka backhand was taken on the rise, and this Federer forehand was not. Notwithstanding, the real problems begin with his topspin whip that makes the ball once again land shorter than Martinka's forehand.

federer3.png
hingis4.png


The topspin is ultimately wasteful. He requires this whip at such an angle because his previous, lateral footwork led him to scramble on a pendulum, stumbling upon a chance opening in Djokovic's court coverage. If Federer had looked to advance forward, he would have cut off Djokovic's angle as Djokovic hit to straight him in the end. The whip itself helps Federer to keep the ball in the court: he is jammed as a result of his poor movement.

In the Martinka display, her backhand whip is in fact quicker, increasing her ball's forward spin and speed, but partly because she returns her racket to the volleying position instead of waving it around her hair for the slower topspin, as Federer does. A Michael Chang would've therefore retrieved this Federer forehand, but more to the point: a Nadal would've retrieved this Federer forehand on a slower court. For example, on a "clay" court.

First of all why do you call her Martinka? I thought her name is Martina?
 

InsideOut900

Hall of Fame
This is a response to @zill , because I want your post to remain about a variety of comparisons to Federer. I've realized you might not believe my statement on Martinka's more practical backhand flair. If I read correctly, Mike Danny also told me I was overreaching when negatively comparing his forehand flair to Martinka's backhand.

Let's run a quick comparison. I've searched up Federer's "most powerful forehands" on the Tube, and these forehands are bolstered by the better equipment of his time. We can glance the fundamental differences between a couple of these forehands and the Martinka backhand from the above link.

To begin: You will first notice that Martinka's footwork is much stabler.

hingis.png

Capriati's return, which is hit to the service line is retrieved by Martinka in two pace-sized steps. Martinka hits the backhand while lunging forward. Not just into the court but to rush towards the volleying position. You will notice that despite her lunging, her shoulders are level. Yet, her left knee is solidly planted for stability from which to push off into the court. Her right knee, meanwhile, is at a 120-degree angle. Her mass is propelled even further forward through this degree of lean.

Such footwork ingenuity can only be equated to a player in another area. In my mind, Martinka's footwork only equates to Edberg and McEnroe's volleying techniques. Edberg has the superior form from a technical standpoint. Mac is the more consistently solid from varying positions than the norm. Martinka's movement is a hybrid of the two, with a near-perfect form and subtle mix to her approach variety. The forehand she hits just before this backhand is a body forehand that serves to jam Capriati and prevent her from hitting a strong return, playing into the Martinka backhand hit squarely on the ad-court tee.


federer2.png


With Federer's forehand, you will notice deficits. This is the first forehand of the video. He takes three shuffle steps to the ball, losing valuable time even when Djokovic's shot is hit parallel to Federer and closer to Federer than Capriati's return is hit to Martinka. Notice Federer's flippity, happy feet that slink every which way. The jump provides him more power than the average player, but the jump is, in fact, backwards. This in itself removes some of his power potential when compared to Martinka. This is why I told you that Martinka hit her backhand more powerfully than Federer hit his forehand. I don't mean this in a relative sense. If you compare where the two players hit their forehands, Martinka's forehand lands deeper, in spite of her inferior equipment. Martinka's backhand was hit at a sharp angle- the only reason there wasn't even more pace on it than the forehand below.

hingis2.png


What would happen if Federer used Capriati's racket with the footwork he displays? The signs are worrisome.

After this, you'll want to take a look at Federer's step in. Worse than the jump, neither of his legs is at a 30-degree angle. He is not pushing off his toes and aiding his propulsion through torso rotation. His left leg's angle is negative and pushing him backwards. What's more, look at the curvature of Federer torso. His improper, horizontal step contributes to something of a V shape if you were to outline his right side. His side is not aligned, and this "flair" is the equivalent of a high school punk who wildly swings his arms and mass to bully the underclassmen, contrasting a boxing professional.

hingis.png


Martinka was the professional. I prefer a ballerina in motion to some kid who's attempting to breakdance. Notice that if you were to outline either side of her body, her outline would be much closer to a true line than what Federer displays above. Even so, she has stepped three feet into No Man's Land, where Federer is a foot or two behind the baseline. While she could have stepped in further, being scrappier (quicker) than Federer, she would have crowded the ball like Federer did, and her resulting step-in might have been lackluster, like Federer's was. She would've been less able to rush the net, like Federer did not.

Seconds later, Federer hits a second forehand winner. We'll compare this step-in with Martinka's step-in.

federer.png
hingis.png


As you can see, Federer skates around the safety of No Man's Land, not advancing, and with his weight shifted partially sideways, as before. His right knee finally sees some proper action, and the left knee is properly planted. He's beginning to show tinges of consistency. Martinka is yet superior, with an entirely forward weight and her knees more bent on both sides. Seeing the video will also show you the Martinka backhand was taken on the rise, and this Federer forehand was not. Notwithstanding, the real problems begin with his topspin whip that makes the ball once again land shorter than Martinka's forehand.

federer3.png
hingis4.png


The topspin is ultimately wasteful. He requires this whip at such an angle because his previous, lateral footwork led him to scramble on a pendulum, stumbling upon a chance opening in Djokovic's court coverage. If Federer had looked to advance forward, he would have cut off Djokovic's angle as Djokovic hit to straight him in the end. The whip itself helps Federer to keep the ball in the court: he is jammed as a result of his poor movement.

In the Martinka display, her backhand whip is in fact quicker, increasing her ball's forward spin and speed, but partly because she returns her racket to the volleying position instead of waving it around her hair for the slower topspin, as Federer does. A Michael Chang would've therefore retrieved this Federer forehand, but more to the point: a Nadal would've retrieved this Federer forehand on a slower court. For example, on a "clay" court.
A few things to consider as per usual:

1) I think you could have explained your point a lot better with gifs than 4k ULTRA HD cropped images, so maybe we can see the whole process of getting to the ball, not just the ballerina positions at the end

2) I watched a couple of random clips and yes, Martina's microstep managing was great, but then he was handling shots that are much weaker in both speed and spin, a lot of the shots she can reach in perfect position; if talking that, both Fed and Martina are top draw

3) Men have to take bigger cuts at the ball because as said at 2), they objectively face harder shots to handle. One of the best gifs to exemplify choppy (as in big steps), yet ultra precise footwork
QmQ7WXpVu4Ns7nTYQGrgaKnqrFQzv9ZJYciJnUaLtU6tmT

2nd point, running passing shot against Davydenko

4) Exhibits of offensive footwork, possibly Fed's speciality.

2nd, 3rd and 4th points here. He doesn't just club the FH, he very precisely steps into it and just rips it. Requires very good footwork to pull off.

Points at 9:24 and 9:50 here
When you unload on a FHDTL you have to have like a microstutter or microdelay on the last step in order to "charge" the shot a little bit longer before unloading. This is best visible with someone like Djokovic or maybe Tsonga when they hit running shots, but Federer transitions into it so smoothly, the microstutter isn't even perceptible.
 

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
Whatever you do man don’t get yourself banned or open up yet another account. This is your pique.
This isn't "yet another" account in the first place. I have been on other forums, and you might notice me from there.

I see a pattern here. For e.g., Mirka Vavrinec's real name is Miroslava and Ivanka Trump's real name is Ivana. :unsure:
Correct. It's a nicknaming style of the culture.

A few things to consider as per usual:

1) I think you could have explained your point a lot better with gifs than 4k ULTRA HD cropped images, so maybe we can see the whole process of getting to the ball, not just the ballerina positions at the end

2) I watched a couple of random clips and yes, Martina's microstep managing was great, but then he was handling shots that are much weaker in both speed and spin, a lot of the shots she can reach in perfect position; if talking that, both Fed and Martina are top draw

3) Men have to take bigger cuts at the ball because as said at 2), they objectively face harder shots to handle. One of the best gifs to exemplify choppy (as in big steps), yet ultra precise footwork
QmQ7WXpVu4Ns7nTYQGrgaKnqrFQzv9ZJYciJnUaLtU6tmT

2nd point, running passing shot against Davydenko

4) Exhibits of offensive footwork, possibly Fed's speciality.

2nd, 3rd and 4th points here. He doesn't just club the FH, he very precisely steps into it and just rips it. Requires very good footwork to pull off.

Points at 9:24 and 9:50 here
When you unload on a FHDTL you have to have like a microstutter or microdelay on the last step in order to "charge" the shot a little bit longer before unloading. This is best visible with someone like Djokovic or maybe Tsonga when they hit running shots, but Federer transitions into it so smoothly, the microstutter isn't even perceptible.
I can quickly reply to these statements. For the first, I captured their motion at their exact, highest points of contact. You show the average poster here a video of a shot being hit, and they won't be able to identify the individual mechanics making up the working motions that cause each shot. They'll simply see a "pretty" shot and proceed into thinking that Federer is superior because he is male. The pro trainers do what I do: they stop the frame at the highest contact points, where the maximum energy is thrust into the shot. We can once again see a sizeable difference when we do this with Martinka's backhand and your animation of Federer's forehand.

hingis.png
image.png


We're dealing with a degraded VCR recording, but you can immediately parse out who's moving forward. Martinka has the forward motion, thrusting her entire body into the shot with an extremely high knee and the racket following through over her head despite hitting the shot at shoulder level. Her left leg remains solidly planted for stability in which she can press her mass into the court for the subsequent charge.

Federer's motion is sideways: he doesn't intend to charge anything but the baseline chalk. All the more embarrassing when this is Wimbledon. His feet are not planted on contact. They're flopping every which way, and his right knee is pulling him backwards and towards the right. His left arm is out for stability but isn't shoulder level- and so, it's subtly weighing him over to the left, against where his right knee is taking him. He lacks any sort of grounding and should be ideally pushing off his left foot (as you can see, it's angled in the air), but neither foot is on the grass when he hits the ball. Because he's not hitting with any authoritative grounding down in to the court, the ball is more likely to sail long, which he compensates for with a loopy follow-through over his head. I've always had issues with people half-assing Nadal's classic follow-through, but we can leave that discussion for another time. The main point of concern is that he doesn't need to do this. The shot is successful because his opponent is a poor volleyer, and not because it's a well-hit ball. Some 80% of the 1980s-1990s opposition, from a 17-year-old Becker to a 17-year-old Kournikova, would've retrieved and redirected this poor attempt at a pass and won the point off their volley.

For the second point, relatively speaking, this doesn't matter. If Federer hit his forehand or backhand with the footwork Martinka had, he would've had Nadal's number in their matches. Because Federer's footwork was inferior, his forehand broke down the more Nadal frustrated his backhand. It's not only about the initial movement, either. Federer isn't as efficient at advancing from a neutral position. From what you saw in that video with Capriati and Martinka, Martinka didn't try to run around and hit risky passing shots which naturally lend less stable footwork. She instead hit squarely to Capriati's feet and crushed the reply. Federer's court perception and ability to tactically pick his spots and plan out in advance is lesser, and that is why you'll see him using such rudimentary topspin. Moreover, his backswing is shorter than Martinka's and more similar to the "Graf jab," which I would count for being less flair. If not for the ugly footwork, similar to Graf's ugly footwork, no person would acknowledge the Federer forehand except in the sense that it wins him matches.

The third point will depend on two things: forward and lateral speed. This respectively takes into account flatter strokes and strokes with greater topspin. Firstly, Martinka's slice was harder than Federer's slice. As for the topspin of their day, Federer dealt with more, and it's something I can't dispute. But what this also does is slow the ball down. For someone with such a short takeback, Federer never mastered blocking back superior power in the same manner as Martinka. Why not? You see, Martinka vigilantly played a variant of tennis called "doubles". This gave her flightier reflexes than Federer has ever had, because Federer neglected the game of doubles. Both disciplines are yin and yang- they require the other to form the complete player. Federer lacked doubles, and he lacked completion. Even in his best days, that was inexcusable because the quality of men's doubles competition had already declined by his best days and would not have impeded his singles career. You're well aware, Federer simply lacked both the talent and the drive for doubles. His miserable doubles record indicates this, well enough.

The balls Martinka had to return were hit with a flatter pace than the balls Federer had to return. This is the doubles realm of tennis. Where the opposition is constantly looking for an opening to attack, and for opportunities to charge the net and take the initiative. The modern singles game is the opposite of this and has been since around the late 1990s, from memory. So, you saw Martinka handling quicker shots than Federer, even if those shots were "lighter". But a certain point, a flatter ball will always be heavier than a topspin ball. There's less time to prepare a backswing, and the upward rotations of a topspin ball once it hits the ground makes it easier to hit the ball once it's completed its upward trajectory. The airborne rotations serve to slow the topspin ball down, further. So, you saw Hingis soar in the modern Top 10 rankings when she was still suffering injuries, out of practice, and not nearly as dedicated to the sport as she'd been 9 years before 2006.

It's somewhat true that if you're at a certain height, flatter shots may land in your strike zone, but this is not a given, and flatter shots shouldn't be hit in the opponent's strike zone. Martinka's flat fore landed in front of Capriati's toes, before Capriati had a chance to move out of the way. Tennis women are not three times faster than the men in any sense. Federer would've been equally jammed by Martinka's forehand and probably more so if he'd somehow hit his ball with more pace than Capriati's serve. These are the reasons why you had such displays as a younger Hingis at 15 return acing Goran Ivanisevic as he tried his damnedest to ace her. The laws of physics don't change just because you go from male to female or vice-versa. Even disregarding spin, most men and women hit with the same relative speed. The difference is in how the ball lands.

As for the microstutter, or "happy feet," it takes power away from the shot because you're less grounded as a root with which the ball is colliding at speeds in excess of 70 MPH. This likewise gives the opponent more time to return to their ideal position. Martinka did have a microstutter, on occasion, but not when she played seriously. When she played seriously, the points were over in some 3-5 seconds precisely because she moved directly to the incoming trajectory, with no happy feet.
 

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
Didn’t read everything but yes hingis BH is one of the best in business and one of the best looking ones too. IT is a better shot in the WTA than fed’s bh is in ATP.
If you already knew this, then all the better.

First of all why do you call her Martinka? I thought her name is Martina?
"Martinka" solely refers to the Hingis of the opening '97 season. This is in my signature. She admitted to slacking immediately after winning the Australian Open, and her footwork noticeably declined. Although her footwork for the rest of '97 was still beyond the Federer footwork I've shown.
 

Sunny014

Legend
If you already knew this, then all the better.


"Martinka" solely refers to the Hingis of the opening '97 season. This is in my signature. She admitted to slacking immediately after winning the Australian Open, and her footwork noticeably declined. Although her footwork for the rest of '97 was still beyond the Federer footwork I've shown.

What is your all time top 5 male players on footwork ?
 

InsideOut900

Hall of Fame
I can quickly reply to these statements. For the first, I captured their motion at their exact, highest points of contact. You show the average poster here a video of a shot being hit, and they won't be able to identify the individual mechanics making up the working motions that cause each shot. They'll simply see a "pretty" shot and proceed into thinking that Federer is superior because he is male. The pro trainers do what I do: they stop the frame at the highest contact points, where the maximum energy is thrust into the shot. We can once again see a sizeable difference when we do this with Martinka's backhand and your animation of Federer's forehand.

hingis.png
image.png
Ok, show me a gif of how Martina handles a shot like that, low and the ball almost past her. No point in showing me a BH return, especially since Fed has a 1 hander, which requires different footwork.
To hit a shot like that you need to take big steps and also land right in position to redirect the ball without any corrective steps, of course it's not gonna look that pretty.

The balls Martinka had to return were hit with a flatter pace than the balls Federer had to return. This is the doubles realm of tennis. Where the opposition is constantly looking for an opening to attack, and for opportunities to charge the net and take the initiative. The modern singles game is the opposite of this and has been since around the late 1990s, from memory. So, you saw Martinka handling quicker shots than Federer, even if those shots were "lighter". But a certain point, a flatter ball will always be heavier than a topspin ball. There's less time to prepare a backswing, and the upward rotations of a topspin ball once it hits the ground makes it easier to hit the ball once it's completed its upward trajectory. The airborne rotations serve to slow the topspin ball down, further. So, you saw Hingis soar in the modern Top 10 rankings when she was still suffering injuries, out of practice, and not nearly as dedicated to the sport as she'd been 9 years before 2006.

It's somewhat true that if you're at a certain height, flatter shots may land in your strike zone, but this is not a given, and flatter shots shouldn't be hit in the opponent's strike zone. Martinka's flat fore landed in front of Capriati's toes, before Capriati had a chance to move out of the way. Tennis women are not three times faster than the men in any sense. Federer would've been equally jammed by Martinka's forehand and probably more so if he'd somehow hit his ball with more pace than Capriati's serve. These are the reasons why you had such displays as a younger Hingis at 15 return acing Goran Ivanisevic as he tried his damnedest to ace her. The laws of physics don't change just because you go from male to female or vice-versa. Even disregarding spin, most men and women hit with the same relative speed. The difference is in how the ball lands.
Bolded 1: If someone hits topspin, you have to put extra-muscle to generate counter spin on the shot, if someone hits flat and hard, you just redirect their pace. Of course that flat strokes are heavier if you hit them away from your opponent and make him or her run for them; weight is combination of pace, depth and spin, if you hit flat, hard and with a lot of depth, chances are your ball is heavy

Bolded 2: Basically what I said above; if you take risks and hit flat, hard and with depth, flat strokes are powerful; but then there is a reason why everyone started hitting with a lot of spin since poly, it's less risk for a lot of efficiency;
flat and hard is risky, consistent heavy topspin slowly gains you an advantage and it's far less risky.


And about what you said regarding the shots Hingis was hitting, not even trying to be ironic here, just show me the points where she did that. Video and timestamps.
You totally disregarded the points and videos I sent. 3 of those FHs were against Agassi, one of the players with hardest and flattest ground strokes out there.

If Federer hit his forehand or backhand with the footwork Martinka had, he would've had Nadal's number in their matches. Because Federer's footwork was inferior, his forehand broke down the more Nadal frustrated his backhand.
This is what I was saying about topspin being efficient at slowly gaining you an advantage. You assume Fed struggled with Nadal because his footwork was imperfect, but who is to say that the extra weight of shot from Nadal's spin didn't make it harder to have good footwork against it.
Sure, it's not testable because Hingis didn't have to play against such a type of player as Nadal

Moreover, his backswing is shorter than Martinka's and more similar to the "Graf jab," which I would count for being less flair. If not for the ugly footwork, similar to Graf's ugly footwork, no person would acknowledge the Federer forehand except in the sense that it wins him matches.

Fed and Graf had ugly footworks because they were more explosive, my god :-D

As for the microstutter, or "happy feet," it takes power away from the shot because you're less grounded as a root with which the ball is colliding at speeds in excess of 70 MPH. This likewise gives the opponent more time to return to their ideal position. Martinka did have a microstutter, on occasion, but not when she played seriously. When she played seriously, the points were over in some 3-5 seconds precisely because she moved directly to the incoming trajectory, with no happy feet.
Yes, but transitioning from lateral to forward movement is very hard.
You have to plant your feet at the precise moment and take that corrective step in case you are not perfectly positioned.

Alterantives are going for broke on the dead run, which is risky or accept being out of position and likely hitting a weaker shot. Fed not needing the corrective step means his offensive footwork was great, that it what I was trying to say. It doesn't matter if it was slightly less pretty on the small steps, the explosiveness and good precision combo made up for it.
 
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R. Schweikart

Professional
This is a response to @zill , because I want your post to remain about a variety of comparisons to Federer. I've realized you might not believe my statement on Martinka's more practical backhand flair. If I read correctly, Mike Danny also told me I was overreaching when negatively comparing his forehand flair to Martinka's backhand.

Let's run a quick comparison. I've searched up Federer's "most powerful forehands" on the Tube, and these forehands are bolstered by the better equipment of his time. We can glance the fundamental differences between a couple of these forehands and the Martinka backhand from the above link.

To begin: You will first notice that Martinka's footwork is much stabler.

hingis.png

Capriati's return, which is hit to the service line is retrieved by Martinka in two pace-sized steps. Martinka hits the backhand while lunging forward. Not just into the court but to rush towards the volleying position. You will notice that despite her lunging, her shoulders are level. Yet, her left knee is solidly planted for stability from which to push off into the court. Her right knee, meanwhile, is at a 120-degree angle. Her mass is propelled even further forward through this degree of lean.

Such footwork ingenuity can only be equated to a player in another area. In my mind, Martinka's footwork only equates to Edberg and McEnroe's volleying techniques. Edberg has the superior form from a technical standpoint. Mac is the more consistently solid from varying positions than the norm. Martinka's movement is a hybrid of the two, with a near-perfect form and subtle mix to her approach variety. The forehand she hits just before this backhand is a body forehand that serves to jam Capriati and prevent her from hitting a strong return, playing into the Martinka backhand hit squarely on the ad-court tee.


federer2.png


With Federer's forehand, you will notice deficits. This is the first forehand of the video. He takes three shuffle steps to the ball, losing valuable time even when Djokovic's shot is hit parallel to Federer and closer to Federer than Capriati's return is hit to Martinka. Notice Federer's flippity, happy feet that slink every which way. The jump provides him more power than the average player, but the jump is, in fact, backwards. This in itself removes some of his power potential when compared to Martinka. This is why I told you that Martinka hit her backhand more powerfully than Federer hit his forehand. I don't mean this in a relative sense. If you compare where the two players hit their forehands, Martinka's forehand lands deeper, in spite of her inferior equipment. Martinka's backhand was hit at a sharp angle- the only reason there wasn't even more pace on it than the forehand below.

hingis2.png


What would happen if Federer used Capriati's racket with the footwork he displays? The signs are worrisome.

After this, you'll want to take a look at Federer's step in. Worse than the jump, neither of his legs is at a 30-degree angle. He is not pushing off his toes and aiding his propulsion through torso rotation. His left leg's angle is negative and pushing him backwards. What's more, look at the curvature of Federer torso. His improper, horizontal step contributes to something of a V shape if you were to outline his right side. His side is not aligned, and this "flair" is the equivalent of a high school punk who wildly swings his arms and mass to bully the underclassmen, contrasting a boxing professional.

hingis.png


Martinka was the professional. I prefer a ballerina in motion to some kid who's attempting to breakdance. Notice that if you were to outline either side of her body, her outline would be much closer to a true line than what Federer displays above. Even so, she has stepped three feet into No Man's Land, where Federer is a foot or two behind the baseline. While she could have stepped in further, being scrappier (quicker) than Federer, she would have crowded the ball like Federer did, and her resulting step-in might have been lackluster, like Federer's was. She would've been less able to rush the net, like Federer did not.

Seconds later, Federer hits a second forehand winner. We'll compare this step-in with Martinka's step-in.

federer.png
hingis.png


As you can see, Federer skates around the safety of No Man's Land, not advancing, and with his weight shifted partially sideways, as before. His right knee finally sees some proper action, and the left knee is properly planted. He's beginning to show tinges of consistency. Martinka is yet superior, with an entirely forward weight and her knees more bent on both sides. Seeing the video will also show you the Martinka backhand was taken on the rise, and this Federer forehand was not. Notwithstanding, the real problems begin with his topspin whip that makes the ball once again land shorter than Martinka's forehand.

federer3.png
hingis4.png


The topspin is ultimately wasteful. He requires this whip at such an angle because his previous, lateral footwork led him to scramble on a pendulum, stumbling upon a chance opening in Djokovic's court coverage. If Federer had looked to advance forward, he would have cut off Djokovic's angle as Djokovic hit to straight him in the end. The whip itself helps Federer to keep the ball in the court: he is jammed as a result of his poor movement.

In the Martinka display, her backhand whip is in fact quicker, increasing her ball's forward spin and speed, but partly because she returns her racket to the volleying position instead of waving it around her hair for the slower topspin, as Federer does. A Michael Chang would've therefore retrieved this Federer forehand, but more to the point: a Nadal would've retrieved this Federer forehand on a slower court. For example, on a "clay" court.


Martinka?
That girl who reached the ultimate peak of women's tennis in Sydney 97 by beating four players ranked 17 to 37?
Who played a role in the greatest slam final ever (according to a fan poll in the early 00s)?

What has she to do with Roger Federer except that she allegedly is also Swiss?
 

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
Ok, show me a gif of how Martina handles a shot like that, low and the ball almost past her. No point in showing me a BH return, especially since Fed has a 1 hander, which requires different footwork.
To hit a shot like that you need to take big steps and also land right in position to redirect the ball without any corrective steps, of course it's not gonna look that pretty.


Bolded 1: If someone hits topspin, you have to put extra-muscle to generate counter spin on the shot, if someone hits flat and hard, you just redirect their pace. Of course that flat strokes are heavier if you hit them away from your opponent and make him or her run for them; weight is combination of pace, depth and spin, if you hit flat, hard and with a lot of depth, chances are your ball is heavy

Bolded 2: Basically what I said above; if you take risks and hit flat, hard and with depth, flat strokes are powerful; but then there is a reason why everyone started hitting with a lot of spin since poly, it's less risk for a lot of efficiency;
flat and hard is risky, consistent heavy topspin slowly gains you an advantage and it's far less risky.


And about what you said regarding the shots Hingis was hitting, not even trying to be ironic here, just show me the points where she did that. Video and timestamps.
You totally disregarded the points and videos I sent. 3 of those FHs were against Agassi, one of the players with hardest and flattest ground strokes out there.




Fed and Graf had ugly footworks because they were more explosive, my god :-D


Yes, but transitioning from lateral to forward movement is very hard.
You have to plant your feet at the precise moment and take that corrective step in case you are not perfectly positioned.

Alterantives are going for broke on the dead run, which is risky or accept being out of position and likely hitting a weaker shot. Fed not needing the corrective step means his offensive footwork was great, that it what I was trying to say. It doesn't matter if it was slightly less pretty on the small steps, the explosiveness and good precision combo made up for it.
You want me to not show a backhand return when I'm referring to her backhand. None of this you've typed makes sense to me, and it sounds apologetic. I understand how hard it is to have footwork like Martinka's, but that's no excuse for him, and it's why she excelled in doubles whereas he struggled. If you'll notice, Martinka didn't simply "redirect pace" in either stroke I showed you. The forehand was an attacking forehand off the Capriati serve. The backhand was aggressively pounded from the shoulder level, and we're very familiar with Federer's similar struggles off the same wing.

Applying conventional wisdom to Martinka, I understand your train of thought, but it's ill-advised. She can hit the shots he can't because she practiced more and because she was a better talent. Talking about what's hard for Federer or the average player doesn't apply to this woman when my initial comparison regarded her and her only. Not only is it easier to generate counterspin with his era of rackets, nulling your point about the difficulty to counter spin, Martinka's backhand was hit with a faster pace than Federer's. You can type about "spin" all you'd like- the truth of the matter is both shots had forward spin, but Martinka's was better placed to skim the corner and get outta there. Federer's forehands were routine topspin forehands that left greater margin for error and travelled slower as a result.

If you closely look at the different videos, you'll see Federer's opponents were already out of position for his forehands. They had no chance at returning them because their own movement was subpar. On the other hand, Capriati correctly guessed Martinka's backhand angle, but the angle was too sharp for Capriati to do anything with, even with the head start she had towards the ball.

I did regard your other videos. I didn't mention them because the logic never changed. Agassi could hit any type of ball, but going to 4 against Agassi in his old and decrepit age shows that Federer wasn't playing with his head. Federer wasn't, and isn't, the type to play around in every match like Martinka. 4 sets for Federer means he messed up many more times than necessary. Lastly, listen sir, before you start your cackling, I can lend you one of my footwork drill videos I've used for my university students if you're confident enough to fool yourself into believing Federer's forehand posture is anything admirable, especially after I've detailed to you every issue with the motion. Don't get pointlessly argumentative with me. I don't care who your favorite player is. I'm trying to tell these guys something to look for in personal stroke mechanics, and you're trying to tell everyone why Federer is stellar to you. I don't have time for the nonsense.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
If you already knew this, then all the better.


"Martinka" solely refers to the Hingis of the opening '97 season. This is in my signature. She admitted to slacking immediately after winning the Australian Open, and her footwork noticeably declined. Although her footwork for the rest of '97 was still beyond the Federer footwork I've shown.

"Martinka '97 = Hingis in the '97 Sydney and Australian Open. The highest level of WTA/ATP tennis play."

This happens when you sniff too much glue.

For casual readers:
Hingis won 2 titles and 11 matches in Sydney and Melbourne in January 1997. She beat one top 15 player, the great Irena Spirlea (# 10) with 75 62 at the AO.
This poor sod thinks that was "the highest level of WTA/ATP tennis play".
So put the Pattex away.
 

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
I'm sure you've copied his technique to great success in the latest tennis video game. No one is telling Roger how to play the sport. I'm telling recreational players such as yourself what's more likely to give you success at your leagues.


If you've played at a decent level, you would know that preparation for your court conditions and the opponent's tendencies is what matters more than anything at his level. Along with a solid mental head space of course. Fundamentals are less changed, but you should know he changed them later in his career for a reason.
 

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
Yes of course.
Nadal would be there, he is tremendous.

Who else ?

Hewitt ??
Novak ???
Michael Chang?
None of the current tour's footwork compares to what thrived in the yesteryears. This goes for both tours, although the current WTA finalists have been showing the steps comparable to what we had in the decades prior. The issue lies in consistency. Can this pace be maintained for longer than one or two tournaments? Other than Nadal, the only decent choice I have for you is Ferrer. Neither player used their tools to constantly advance. Defensive footwork is inherently inferior. The most I can offer you are players from back in my earlier days- the latest whom would be Edberg who did move better than Ferrer. To go further, you would need to seek out the wooden players such as certainly Borg, then Ashe, Laver...
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
If you already knew this, then all the better.


"Martinka" solely refers to the Hingis of the opening '97 season. This is in my signature. She admitted to slacking immediately after winning the Australian Open, and her footwork noticeably declined. Although her footwork for the rest of '97 was still beyond the Federer footwork I've shown.
It doesn't matter the year. The comparison never changes.
Eh?
 

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
You don't know what you're typing, and it's not worth my time to try and figure it out for you. If you have a question, use your words.
 
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