Let's define smart play/player

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Not talking about pure pushing style here. Yes it's about winning, strategy, using your brain more instead of reflex moves, but not 'keep the rally going until the opponent makes a mistake' mindset.
Let's define it, let's make a list of traits and components. Please add items to the list and repost. I'll start with things I can think of as a low intermediate player:
- go crosscourt no matter what until you get a short ball
- avoid aiming 2-3 feet near the lines
- pushed out wide, never go for it, hit deep crosscourt no matter what. If pushed too far, don't take risk, just lob it
- swing as fast as you need to, don't over do it
- always try to hit deep unless hitting short deliberately to bring the opponent forward
- change up for surprise, hit deliberately slow/extremely spinny at times especially on the first serve, but don't make it too obvious
- never show your frustration, keep a poker face at all times ( Medvedev )

By the way you can add dodgy items if you want but am not a fan of it. ( like try to annoy the opponent, take longer time to serve, fake bad toss, exagerated 'come on's, smile on your opponent's error or frustration etc ).
 
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Dragy

Legend
You want to define which is an evaluative, subjective and situational thing. There’ll be no definition. The territory of “Be the last one to hit a non-faulty ball”.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You want to define which is an evaluative, subjective and situational thing. There’ll be no definition. The territory of “Be the last one to hit a non-faulty ball”.
You know there’s such a thing as smart play, right? We’re talking about the components of that. Don’t get stuck with the words.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
A friend of mine added these in private chat:
- Read your opponent, his strengths, weaknesses and play accordingly
- Adapt to the court conditions. Weather? Court type? Lights?
- Read the scores. When to play safe? When to pull the trigger? E.g.. at 40 - 0 or 0 - 40. Pros tend to take risky shots.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Not talking about pure pushing style here. Yes it's about winning, strategy, using your brain more instead of reflex moves, but not 'keep the rally going until the opponent makes a mistake' mindset.
Let's define it, let's make a list of traits and components. Please add items to the list and repost. I'll start with things I can think of as a low intermediate player:
- go crosscourt no matter what until you get a short ball
- avoid aiming 2-3 feet near the lines
- pushed out wide, never go for it, hit deep crosscourt no matter what. If pushed too far, don't take risk, just lob it
- swing as fast as you need to, don't over do it
- always try to hit deep unless hitting short deliberately to bring the opponent forward
- change up for surprise, hit deliberately slow/extremely spinny at times especially on the first serve, but don't make it too obvious
- never show your frustration, keep a poker face at all times ( Medvedev )

By the way you can add dodgy items if you want but am not a fan of it. ( like try to annoy the opponent, take longer time to serve, fake bad toss, exagerated 'come on's, smile on your opponent's error or frustration etc ).

If you do all this your game will be extremely predictable and you will do the same thing over and over again, I don't think thats what higher level players do, I don't really see this, I see alot more variety.
There are plenty of opportunities to do alot of different things in many situations unless you really are pushed wide/deep and in a very defensive situation, only then are your options very limited.
You don't always have to hit crosscourt and I don't see this at all, they hit down the middle they hit down the line (of course not 1feet next to the line).
Thats just my opinion.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
If you do all this your game will be extremely predictable and you will do the same thing over and over again, I don't think thats what higher level players do, I don't really see this, I see alot more variety.
There are plenty of opportunities to do alot of different things in many situations unless you really are pushed wide/deep and in a very defensive situation, only then are your options very limited.
You don't always have to hit crosscourt and I don't see this at all, they hit down the middle they hit down the line (of course not 1feet next to the line).
Thats just my opinion.

A lot is two words.

I understand English isn't your first language, but I have been telling you this for years.

It's vexing.

J
 

FiReFTW

Legend
A lot is two words.

I understand English isn't your first language, but I have been telling you this for years.

It's vexing.

J

Im used to writing in internet slang, some words are not quite 100% correct, and Im also usually a bit lazy when it comes to certain things when im typing (Like Im instead of I'm) alltho your right, its not a lot of work to write that separately, I think I just got used to writing it that way, so its a bit of a habit haha.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Situational smartness?
Interesting.
I suspect there will be some guidelines even for specific situations.
Give examples of situations if you want. I don’t mind expanding the topic. The core of the matter is that there’s always a smart and a dumb option to choose from.
 

Dragy

Legend
If you do all this your game will be extremely predictable and you will do the same thing over and over again, I don't think thats what higher level players do, I don't really see this, I see alot more variety.
There are plenty of opportunities to do alot of different things in many situations unless you really are pushed wide/deep and in a very defensive situation, only then are your options very limited.
You don't always have to hit crosscourt and I don't see this at all, they hit down the middle they hit down the line (of course not 1feet next to the line).
Thats just my opinion.
I actually agree, playing smart is about making decisions, which include both adding variety or keeping up with what seems to work, going for safety or ramping up stakes - all based on good knowledge of own capabilities, efficient patterns, current ability/shape, as well as recognizing opponent’s strengths, weaknesses and patterns.

I won’t give a special “smart“ name to “not being stupid and ignorant towards basic principles of the game”. Yes we are stupid frequently on court, or lost, or choking, sometimes even tanking. But “he’s a smart player” is not about not aiming for the lines, it’s more about taking one’s opponent apart by negating his powers and putting him in trouble with whatever tools one has - be that 100+ mph serve or moonball fest
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I actually agree, playing smart is about making decisions, which include both adding variety or keeping up with what seems to work, going for safety or ramping up stakes - all based on good knowledge of own capabilities, efficient patterns, current ability/shape, as well as recognizing opponent’s strengths, weaknesses and patterns.

I won’t give a special “smart“ name to “not being stupid and ignorant towards basic principles of the game”. Yes we are stupid frequently on court, or lost, or choking, sometimes even tanking. But “he’s a smart player” is not about not aiming for the lines, it’s more about taking one’s opponent apart by negating his powers and putting him in trouble with whatever tools one has - be that 100+ mph serve or moonball fest
My list above can be a good focus for your mind to be busy with instead of being overcome by nerves and frustration and self-destroy. In other words meaningful and useful stuff for the mind to pay attention to. You don’t agree?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I actually agree, playing smart is about making decisions, which include both adding variety or keeping up with what seems to work, going for safety or ramping up stakes - all based on good knowledge of own capabilities, efficient patterns, current ability/shape, as well as recognizing opponent’s strengths, weaknesses and patterns.

I won’t give a special “smart“ name to “not being stupid and ignorant towards basic principles of the game”. Yes we are stupid frequently on court, or lost, or choking, sometimes even tanking. But “he’s a smart player” is not about not aiming for the lines, it’s more about taking one’s opponent apart by negating his powers and putting him in trouble with whatever tools one has - be that 100+ mph serve or moonball fest

Yes I agree thats what I mean, lets say you attack ur opponents backhand with inside out forehands and its working great... well... after a while he will start reading it and start to lean towards that side and run around perhaps.. so if this thing is working of course im gonna keep doing it, but every now and again I will go inside in, so he won't really be able to "exploit" this very predictable strategy.
Its that what I was talking about, that sure if something is working or sometihng is a very good play for you, go for it and do it, but don't just do something blindly, still have variety and do different things to keep him off balance.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
so if this thing is working of course im gonna keep doing it, but every now and again I will go inside in, so he won't really be able to "exploit" this very predictable strategy.
I thought that was on my list, sort of.


- change up for surprise, hit deliberately slow/extremely spinny at times especially on the first serve, but don't make it too obvious
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
It's like if your foot hurts so you slam your hand in a car door so you forget about your foot hurting.

J
I thought it was fundamental to keep your mind busy with useful and positive stuff, avoid negative self talk, dwelling on errors, previous points, games, sets. I started feeling sorry for your clients!
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Interesting fact: Mind cannot focus on many things at the same time. So you can let it wander around like a mad monkey or tame it by drawing its attention to the task at hand. It's up to you. Jolly chooses the first one. Fair enough!!
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I thought it was fundamental to keep your mind busy with useful and positive stuff, avoid negative self talk, dwelling on errors, previous points, games, sets. I started feeling sorry for your clients!

Imagine you are talking to a brain surgeon before a very delicate procedure and he says during the surgery he just keeps his mind busy with positive stuff, avoids negative self talk, dwelling on botched operations and previous patients that have emerged paralyzed or died on the table?

J
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
I thought it was fundamental to keep your mind busy with useful and positive stuff, avoid negative self talk, dwelling on errors, previous points, games, sets. I started feeling sorry for your clients!
Keep your mind busy during play???? Thats how you lose.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Imagine you are talking to a brain surgeon before a very delicate procedure and he says during the surgery he just keeps his mind busy with positive stuff, avoids negative self talk, dwelling on botched operations and previous patients that have emerged paralyzed or died on the table?

J
Good example. A brain surgeon's mind will be busy totally with the task at hand only.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Mind will never be empty. It's up to you to make it busy with negative or positive, useful stuff. That's what we are talking about.
It doesn't have to empty. If you practice shots to the point that you don't have to think when you hit it, then you can start thinking further.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I think the thread was derailed a bit haha! The list I posted is not something the player will keep telling himself continuously. It's ingrained on a smart player's mind. He will already know he shouldn't try to do much when he was stretched out wide on his forehand. He will go deep crosscourt if he can or lob.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Have you? Obviously not.

Nadal might bombard the backhand alot, but he does alot of other things too, down the line, drop shots etc..
It’s sort of a 2 sided joke. What you say is true. That’s one side. Obviously he can do anything.

But the other side is, he does have some simple patterns of play everyone knows. But he’s so good, it doesn’t matter. How many times does he serve wide and get a first ball forehand for example? But on clay especially, there’s nothing his opponent can do about it.

And the second part is my answer to the OP. You can win a lot of matches with simple patterns of play.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
It’s sort of a 2 sided joke. What you say is true. That’s one side. Obviously he can do anything.

But the other side is, he does have some simple patterns of play everyone knows. But he’s so good, it doesn’t matter. How many times does he serve wide and get a first ball forehand for example? But on clay especially, there’s nothing his opponent can do about it.

And the second part is my answer to the OP. You can win a lot of matches with simple patterns of play.

But I didn't say to hit different shots every time, I simply said theres merit in keeping some variety to keep the opponent off balance so he can't 100% know what ur gonna do next always. Of course the top pros have some weapons and abuse them alot, but they do change it up a bit here and there, so their opponent can't get comfortable and just react before they even do that because he knows whats coming next, most likely it is coming but its not guaranteed if every 5th time is something different.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You can win a lot of matches with simple patterns of play.
Yes and I guess you’ll agree that too many bad shot choices are made at lower levels of tennis. Avoiding these requires some smartness I believe and thought it would be nice to make a list of smart choices in a way. That’s the whole intention in this thread.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
But I didn't say to hit different shots every time, I simply said theres merit in keeping some variety to keep the opponent off balance so he can't 100% know what ur gonna do next always. Of course the top pros have some weapons and abuse them alot, but they do change it up a bit here and there, so their opponent can't get comfortable and just react before they even do that because he knows whats coming next, most likely it is coming but its not guaranteed if every 5th time is something different.
I think variety is overrated when you are intermediate level and below. I am a one-trick pony , but i only lost 1 match out of 8 matches in my league.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Yes and I guess you’ll agree that too many bad shot choices are made at lower levels of tennis. Avoiding these requires some smartness I believe and thought it would be nice to make a list of smart choices in a way. That’s the whole intention in this thread.
I'd look to books to get this info. But reading this stuff and incorporating it into play are very different things. To make any of this useful, you'd have to "practice with intention". And honestly, most rec players aren't going to do this. Lack of time. Lack of like minded partners. Lack of persistence. It's a nice idea, but it ain't gonna happen. But you don't have to incorporate everything. Try to pick out a few things and work on them. That's probably the route to go. Even that will be difficult though.

These are probably all on YouTube as well. And watching is probably better than reading for most people. Here's Wardlaw. I couldn't find the others, but I have both of those on VHS. They are appear "dated" in presentation, but I think the information still holds. Especially for us rec players.


1. Warldaw


2. Allen Fox


3. USTA Winning Patterns of Play (enjoy the VHS)

 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
It's a nice idea, but it ain't gonna happen. Anyway:

These are probably all on YouTube as well. And watching is probably better than reading for most people.


Well I was maybe 2/10 smart for years but recently focusing on the list above my match performance improved dramatically so I can say I’m 7/10 smart now. Hence wanted to bring it up.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Right? Warlaw rules are great. i feel like after 1 years of using it, i now can start challenging players above my level, not so much beating them yet, but they have to take me more serious.
 

BetaServe

Professional
I simply said theres merit in keeping some variety to keep the opponent off balance so he can't 100% know what ur gonna do next always.

"Him knowing 100% what you're gonna do" is not the reason to change your tactics. You change your tactics only when it doesn't work anymore. So like if my opponent is a fat 60 yo guy and I dropshot him every time. He knows exactly what I'm gonna do but there's nothing he can do about it, then why change? So it's more like "keep doing it until it doesn't work".
 

E46luver

Professional
I'm glad someone brought up Nadal. There was a great podcast that showed that Nadal serves 90% of his serves to the BH. He won the match 6-1 6-1 or something. Opponent knew exactly where the ball was coming and it didn't matter. Smart player? Find weakness and exploit it until opponent wants to quit playing or accuses you of being a "cheater". If opponent has no BH, hit 100% of your balls to his BH. Not 99%. 100%. In fact, TELL HIM that every ball is going to his BH. It won't matter. You will win 55% of point, and win the match. That is smart tennis, not trying to get too cute or fancy. Variety is also king, but if you're fighting someone with a broken arm, you don't punch his leg for variety, you keep punching the broken arm.
 

E46luver

Professional
To simplify Wardlaw, always go CC. Just always. For short ball, step in and hit DTL.
Do this on 100% of points at 3.5 level and you will go to 4.0 level.
 

E46luver

Professional
Really nice view, this shows how both smart and high level tennis player employ strategy to end the point to force errors.

That running BH at :30 is a great example of how D1 and above hits a defensive shot harder than a rec player hits a feed
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Situational smartness?
Interesting.
I suspect there will be some guidelines even for specific situations.
Give examples of situations if you want. I don’t mind expanding the topic. The core of the matter is that there’s always a smart and a dumb option to choose from.
Sometimes it can be hard to separate smart players from experienced competitors. People who have played many, many matches in competitive settings usually appear to be smart tennis players, especially if they have at least half a brain off the court.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro

In a nutshell... smartness maximizes potential future states. Smartness wants to have as many options as possible.

In the tennis context, this means we can call shots/decisions that give us more future states "smart".

Hitting the net takes away options, hitting over the net and into the court opens options.

Hitting the net is dumb, getting it over the net is smart. Duh.

You can independently derive the rest on your own.

Some questions you can use to evaluate the intelligence of a decision:

Does this give me more options?

Does this take away my opponents options?

Does this take away my options in the short run, but open more options in the long run?

Ideally you'd want every shot to give you more options while taking away your opponents options. Make your life easier, make their life harder. Simple stuff, but you can work up from it and use it to help navigate complex situations.
 
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2-Step-Q

Rookie
Not talking about pure pushing style here. Yes it's about winning, strategy, using your brain more instead of reflex moves, but not 'keep the rally going until the opponent makes a mistake' mindset.
Let's define it, let's make a list of traits and components. Please add items to the list and repost. I'll start with things I can think of as a low intermediate player:
- go crosscourt no matter what until you get a short ball
- avoid aiming 2-3 feet near the lines
- pushed out wide, never go for it, hit deep crosscourt no matter what. If pushed too far, don't take risk, just lob it
- swing as fast as you need to, don't over do it
- always try to hit deep unless hitting short deliberately to bring the opponent forward
- change up for surprise, hit deliberately slow/extremely spinny at times especially on the first serve, but don't make it too obvious
- never show your frustration, keep a poker face at all times ( Medvedev )

By the way you can add dodgy items if you want but am not a fan of it. ( like try to annoy the opponent, take longer time to serve, fake bad toss, exagerated 'come on's, smile on your opponent's error or frustration etc ).
I feel like you're confusing "smart" tennis with "safe" tennis. With the exception of getting a ball back in the playable court. There is NO hard rules for tennis players like "pushed out wide, never go for it, hit deep crosscourt no matter what. If pushed too far, don't take risk, just lob it" A smart player understand his and the opponents weapons and weaknesses and picks the best of his options. If you've got a weak lob against a s&v player that drags you out wide on his serve sometimes you have to go down the line because your lob will go out, a CC shot will go right into his wheelhouse and a DTL shot is unexpected and also difficult for your opponent to hit (also you should probably practice your lob a lot more! Thats a note for me btw)

Its always good to have margin for error but sometimes you get those really quick guys that will get to any ball you dont put directly on a line or at a sharp shorter angle. They are riskier shots but there's no reward without risk.

There's a jiujitsu phrase I keep in my tennis bag "Fight for Position not submission" Basically you don't have to crack winners all the time. Your goal should be to put yourself in a better position to give you more options. If you continue to do that the point will solve itself

To me the mark of a smart tennis player is Patience.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
Well it didn’t take long for this thread to get completely derailed.

I think for your typical club player the OP is simply describing high percentage basic tactics. Yet somehow everyone has to chime in with oh you have to play the situations and know your opponent. Sure. But ultimately tennis strategy is pretty straightforward. Get your first serve in. Keep the ball deep and attack your opponents backhand. even against Federer this is a winning strategy. It’s just that it takes such tremendous execution against a player of his caliber that only a few players in the world can pull it off.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Well it didn’t take long for this thread to get completely derailed.

I think for your typical club player the OP is simply describing high percentage basic tactics. Yet somehow everyone has to chime in with oh you have to play the situations and know your opponent. Sure. But ultimately tennis strategy is pretty straightforward. Get your first serve in. Keep the ball deep and attack your opponents backhand. even against Federer this is a winning strategy. It’s just that it takes such tremendous execution against a player of his caliber that only a few players in the world can pull it off.
:D
Some people are always looking for an opportunity to be in the opposition mode.
New thread, great, where’s my keyboard? Let me show him his place!
They don’t even bother to say ‘hmm good points but...’
Surely everything I said can’t be completely BS, right??
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
:D
Some people are always looking for an opportunity to be in the opposition mode.
New thread, great, where’s my keyboard? Let me show him his place!
They don’t even bother to say ‘hmm good points but...’
Surely everything I said can’t be completely BS, right??
You have to remember everyone on TTW is 5.0 or above. So your Everyman tactics won’t work against them see? Unless you’re a pusher in which case you will be lambasted for exposing their weaknesses! Ha.

Which of course is why people hate pushers. They are players who have taken high percentage tennis to such an extreme that they suck all the fun out of the game.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
I thought it was fundamental to keep your mind busy with useful and positive stuff, avoid negative self talk, dwelling on errors, previous points, games, sets. I started feeling sorry for your clients!
Have you ever seen a mcEnroe match? How much positive talk do you think was going on in that head? I swear he could be pissed off leading 5-1.
 
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